Clearly, Cadets are evil......

[Spaceman3750]

"teacher professional development time"

I'm going to single this one out because the quotes seem to imply some contempt towards teacher PD time. Teachers are required to have many, many hours of CPDU's to renew their license. 120 hours every 5 years is what my state requires, and since teacher institute/school improvement days frequently don't count for CPDU's they may have to take time off of work to earn these credits. Most of them go to workshops in the evenings that they're not paid to attend. Your employer doesn't send you to a conference or other professional event?

Also, what you apparently don't know is that teachers work the hours they're paid for, plus countless that they're not paid for. Many of the teachers I work with (I'm in the IT department for a school district) are well known for being at school by 6:30AM, not leaving until 5:30 or 6:00PM, then going home, having dinner, and grading until they go to bed. By my math, that's a 13 or 14 hour workday, only 8 of which they're paid for.

I pretty well doubt the teachers in your area get 2 weeks vacation in addition to regular breaks, but I'll take your word for it. Sick time - school personnel get a bit more sick time in schools than most, but that's because we work in an environment where disease spreads like wildfire.

Snow day's aren't about the teachers. 12 months staff (like me) still have to work. It's about how safe it is to operate buses in winter conditions or how safe it is for children to be standing at the bus stop in -2F weather. Teachers getting snow days off is just a side effect of that.

The reason you only need an associate's degree to sub is because in grades 6-12 your subs are essentially babysitters and not much more.

Finally, the reason that school administrators have set crazy rules is because their students have crazy parents that let them get away with all kinds of BS. That doesn't make it right, it's simply an indication that the failure in our school system starts with a failure in the home.

Edit: Wow, I can't proofread. That means it's time for bed...

[nesagsar]

Congrats that it worked out for you and your doing well, but not quite the same scenario discussed in the article.  At 10 years old, I imagine it was more your parent(s) decision to homeschool you vs your own though.

My mother wanted me to go to high school. It was my decision to homeschool myself. And I mean that, for the most part it was just me. My parents were busy getting their college degrees so I read their books from the previous semester. I also played a whole lot of video games. That helped me learn math.

[SarDragon]

A big part of the failure in education is the parents. Sadly, they have poor values because their parents, the folks of my generation, neglected to pass them on. All those kids and college students who rejected societal rules and values in the late '60s, and all through the '70s, are the grandparents of today. The folks that were called "hippies" back then.

As of the schools themselves, frequently the administrators have not been teachers, or are so removed from teaching that they are really no longer educators. The same goes for school boards. I've seen too many people who simply use a school board position as a political springboard. When you have that kind of people making the rules, sometimes the rules suck. I don't blame the teachers for that.

[FARRIER]

The real head-banging frustration here is; even though the father has started home-schooling, and indicates he will not return his son to the public school system, his property taxes will not be reduced as a result.  The school system is going to get their money from county government no matter what.  This is the case in most if not all the country.  Parents who home-school still pay taxes to the school system no matter what.

The end result is mediocrity, apathy, idiocy, and stupidity because there is no incentive to excel.

This is along the same lines as the student who had the parade rifles in the back of his vehicle, and got busted because of it.

Sad. 


Cheers,

Is this the incident your thinking about?

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=109380&catid=339

This was the kicker on this one, "Morrow, who has already secured the necessary recommendation from a member of Congress to attend the Merchant Marine Academy, has been told an expulsion would not derail her eventual acceptance to the Academy".

[Major Carrales]

A big part of the failure in education is the parents. Sadly, they have poor values because their parents, the folks of my generation, neglected to pass them on. All those kids and college students who rejected societal rules and values in the late '60s, and all through the '70s, are the grandparents of today. The folks that were called "hippies" back then.

As of the schools themselves, frequently the administrators have not been teachers, or are so removed from teaching that they are really no longer educators. The same goes for school boards. I've seen too many people who simply use a school board position as a political springboard. When you have that kind of people making the rules, sometimes the rules suck. I don't blame the teachers for that.

So true, as I have seen it via history...that era was one of general "counterculture" where the established traditions were questioned and, in many places, scrapped for nothing more than that purpose.  Change for change's sake.

The problem with that is that sometimes the "traditions" are not wrong.  Sometimes they exist for a purpose...when you lose too much tradition, you lose too much of your culture.

History generally also recalls that the "Hippies" eventually "wised up" and became the "Yuppies" of the 1980s.  However, by this time, much damage had been done.  Now we are cynical for no reason, have faith in nothing and expect some "magic pills" type solutions to everything when all of the historical record negates such things.

[FARRIER]

Your own quote, "I teach by choice." If Administrators are creating the unreal environments like the one below, or the unsafe ones you describe, and the teachers decide to stay at that school, they are individually voting for it by staying put. Parents home school or put their kids in charter schools if they think environment is not conducive to learning. Prime example of teachers voting with their feet, again, the local Elementry/Middle/High School System in my area, used to be a training school. The teachers, right out of college with their teaching certificates, stayed two years, then moved on to the bigger and better schools. Now, the school has applicants with their Masters Degree for the same positions. Its one of the better schools. I work in Aerospace. The company just hired a former High School Math Teacher doing something not even related to her degree. She quit because of the previous work environment at a major city school.

Joe, sorry, but some of the schools have gone overboard. The high school in my area, which is in a town of 2,000, maybe 3,000 if you include the surrounding rual area, has made its goal education. But some make a name for themselves for nothing that has to do with education. A prime example below. This is just a snippet of the article:

"Jeremy Stoppel is a junior at Northglenn High School. On Sept. 3, he drove his pickup truck to school with two 3-foot-by-5-foot American flags flying from the back. He chose to display the flags as a way of honoring his cousin, who is serving in the United States Navy.

A school security guard confronted him and told him he'd have to remove the flags.

"She said that the school centers around diversity and she didn't want anyone feeling uncomfortable," says Stoppel. "


http://www.9news.com/rss/article.aspx?storyid=175943

And the "front line" teachers were responsible for this how?

[Major Carrales]

Your own quote, "I teach by choice." If Administrators are creating the unreal environments like the one below, or the unsafe ones you describe, and the teachers decide to stay at that school, they are individually voting for it by staying put. Parents home school or put their kids in charter schools if they think environment is not conducive to learning. Prime example of teachers voting with their feet, again, the local Elementry/Middle/High School System in my area, used to be a training school. The teachers, right out of college with their teaching certificates, stayed two years, then moved on to the bigger and better schools. Now, the school has applicants with their Masters Degree for the same positions. Its one of the better schools. I work in Aerospace. The company just hired a former High School Math Teacher doing something not even related to her degree. She quit because of the previous work environment at a major city school.

Joe, sorry, but some of the schools have gone overboard. The high school in my area, which is in a town of 2,000, maybe 3,000 if you include the surrounding rual area, has made its goal education. But some make a name for themselves for nothing that has to do with education. A prime example below. This is just a snippet of the article:

"Jeremy Stoppel is a junior at Northglenn High School. On Sept. 3, he drove his pickup truck to school with two 3-foot-by-5-foot American flags flying from the back. He chose to display the flags as a way of honoring his cousin, who is serving in the United States Navy.

A school security guard confronted him and told him he'd have to remove the flags.

"She said that the school centers around diversity and she didn't want anyone feeling uncomfortable," says Stoppel. "


http://www.9news.com/rss/article.aspx?storyid=175943

And the "front line" teachers were responsible for this how?

You have it backwards....if a school is in trouble you stay and do your part to fix it.  "Voting with your feet" is a good way to turn your back on the problem.  I've been in my school for 13 years...I believe I can help the students.  Those students need people to care about them.  I started a school newspaper and brought CAP to the middle school.

If I walk, the school loses an asset.

Students can "vote with their feet" if their parents allow it, but...in South Texas, there is little place for them to go.

Teachers have to have "staying power" and invest emotionally in the schools where they teach...that's the ticket.  Not running from the problem and then coming on line and taking a swat at Public Schools.

I know this profession is not for everyone, and those that can't do it really need to be elsewhere.

However, I doubt that a majority of families in my area could or would ever home school their children, and, according to your concept...if in private schools they could walk at the first sign of a challenge (that is, if s Private School would accept them to begin with).

Private Schools/Charter Schools tend to work because they can be selective or hold strict levels of criteria to enter or remain there.  Remove that...force them to TAKE EVERYONE, like a public school and they would BECOME PUBLIC SCHOOLS.  All the benefits would be negated.

[SarDragon]

Some administrators force teachers from one subject to teach other subjects.  The justification is that we have some skill in the area of presenting materials.  The idea of a University is that a person gets a "universal" education with a major area of study.  I do not agree with the practice, however, would you have some person of the street as a sub covering the class until a person could be found to teach?  In the REAL WORLD, where school is mandated, that is the only solution possible.

There's a lot more of that practice in the training environment. When I became an instructor/trainer in the Navy, they sent me to school to learn how to do the instruction, along with a little training on curriculum development, with the expectation that we would go to our duty station, take a course, and then teach it. The system works in that environment, because we have a fixed course curriculum, and standardized lesson guides. The specialization required was that you were instructing courses based on your broad technical specialty - electronics, mechanics, etc. A cook wouldn't instruct at an electronics school, nor vice versa.

That's a good way to structure subs - make sure they have minimum education courses, hand them a lesson guide, and put them to work.

In my time in CAP, using my instructor training, I've taught Level I, SLS, Aero Ed classes, Radio Operator training, and maybe something else, too. (It gets to be a blur after a while.)

[FARRIER]

Then going back to the beginning and main point of this thread and your reply to it......

"Its a disruption of class, In School Suspension (ISS) would have been the better punishment.   In Texas a disruption of class can result in a citation." - For a first time, ISS is even to much. When I had my nephew living with me, I was on the phone with the principal a few times, getting the details, having a meeting with my nephew afterwords. At least I felt the school was working with me and I reinforced them.

"Many of you forget that the purpose of school is education and that it is a teacher's job to instruct the subject matter, not babysit students.   And then, who can forget the parents that enable immature behavior by defending their children even in cases where those children are clearly guilty.  If one's child cannot behave in a public school setting, please...get them out of there and teach them yourself.  I am a big proponent of home schooling despite being a public school teacher."
---- Your whining about the rotten parts of your job. Honestly, hearing you complain as a teacher doesn't communicate the same message to me. Is that negativity bleeding off into the teaching. Having started out in aviation, I was taught that if a person gets burnt out, they can become a safety factor. If a teacher gets burnt out, are they still teaching at the ability they once were?

Both the student and the school should have exercised better judgment.  The student should have refrained from shooting anyone with anything and the School should have handed out a more fitting punishment. - agreed

Your own quote, "I teach by choice." If Administrators are creating the unreal environments like the one below, or the unsafe ones you describe, and the teachers decide to stay at that school, they are individually voting for it by staying put. Parents home school or put their kids in charter schools if they think environment is not conducive to learning. Prime example of teachers voting with their feet, again, the local Elementry/Middle/High School System in my area, used to be a training school. The teachers, right out of college with their teaching certificates, stayed two years, then moved on to the bigger and better schools. Now, the school has applicants with their Masters Degree for the same positions. Its one of the better schools. I work in Aerospace. The company just hired a former High School Math Teacher doing something not even related to her degree. She quit because of the previous work environment at a major city school.

Joe, sorry, but some of the schools have gone overboard. The high school in my area, which is in a town of 2,000, maybe 3,000 if you include the surrounding rual area, has made its goal education. But some make a name for themselves for nothing that has to do with education. A prime example below. This is just a snippet of the article:

"Jeremy Stoppel is a junior at Northglenn High School. On Sept. 3, he drove his pickup truck to school with two 3-foot-by-5-foot American flags flying from the back. He chose to display the flags as a way of honoring his cousin, who is serving in the United States Navy.

A school security guard confronted him and told him he'd have to remove the flags.

"She said that the school centers around diversity and she didn't want anyone feeling uncomfortable," says Stoppel. "


http://www.9news.com/rss/article.aspx?storyid=175943

And the "front line" teachers were responsible for this how?

You have it backwards....if a school is in trouble you stay and do your part to fix it.  "Voting with your feet" is a good way to turn your back on the problem.  I've been in my school for 13 years...I believe I can help the students.  Those students need people to care about them.  I started a school newspaper and brought CAP to the middle school.

If I walk, the school loses an asset.

Students can "vote with their feet" if their parents allow it, but...in South Texas, there is little place for them to go.

Teachers have to have "staying power" and invest emotionally in the schools where they teach...that's the ticket.  Not running from the problem and then coming on line and taking a swat at Public Schools.

I know this profession is not for everyone, and those that can't do it really need to be elsewhere.

However, I doubt that a majority of families in my area could or would ever home school their children, and, according to your concept...if in private schools they could walk at the first sign of a challenge (that is, if s Private School would accept them to begin with).

Private Schools/Charter Schools tend to work because they can be selective or hold strict levels of criteria to enter or remain there.  Remove that...force them to TAKE EVERYONE, like a public school and they would BECOME PUBLIC SCHOOLS.  All the benefits would be negated.

[NCRblues]

Spacemom: as a police officer, i have to almost double the continuing education that what you cited that teachers need... where are my tax payer days off to get that done? oh wait, i have to do them on my normal days off, or with my vacation time....

Major Carrales, Up until this point, i had a lot of respect for you...but i have lost it all. Did you just really say "They only have to fight fires and apprehend criminals (some of which they can use deadly force to comply)" about police and fire fighters? I really really hope to god you say that the next time your involved in an auto accident, or need fire rescue for a medical call....

How dare you say that. In my post i thanked you for teaching, and said some teachers are good, but you throw ALL cops and firemen under the buss like that?

I do more in one shift than you can ever dream, i have seen THE worst of the worst. Kids blowing there brains out and mom and dad coming home and crying on MY shoulder. Traffic accidents where grandmothers are thrown from the car at 75mph because a drunk decided to drive home that night. Wife beating worthless "men", murders and gang bangers. ( and i seen all that on active duty before i went to a civilian department)

So enjoy your desk job with those kids that are soooooo hard to work with. I will trade you any day, lets see how long YOU last on the street of St Louis..... because with words like that about your other first responders you wont have much backup when you need it.

[tsrup]

Spacemom: as a police officer, i have to almost double the continuing education that what you cited that teachers need... where are my tax payer days off to get that done? oh wait, i have to do them on my normal days off, or with my vacation time....

Major Carrales, Up until this point, i had a lot of respect for you...but i have lost it all. Did you just really say "They only have to fight fires and apprehend criminals (some of which they can use deadly force to comply)" about police and fire fighters? I really really hope to god you say that the next time your involved in an auto accident, or need fire rescue for a medical call....

How dare you say that. In my post i thanked you for teaching, and said some teachers are good, but you throw ALL cops and firemen under the buss like that?

I do more in one shift than you can ever dream, i have seen THE worst of the worst. Kids blowing there brains out and mom and dad coming home and crying on MY shoulder. Traffic accidents where grandmothers are thrown from the car at 75mph because a drunk decided to drive home that night. Wife beating worthless "men", murders and gang bangers. ( and i seen all that on active duty before i went to a civilian department)

So enjoy your desk job with those kids that are soooooo hard to work with. I will trade you any day, lets see how long YOU last on the street of St Louis..... because with words like that about your other first responders you wont have much backup when you need it.

I think it's slightly hypocritical to take a government paycheck, and then complain that another tax payed employee is paid too much. 
I don't envy a teacher, the work they do to get their degree, only to look forward to budget cuts, long hours (mostly from a job that follows them home), and more or less dealing with people who view you as a source of misery.
I don't envy a policeman either.  The work they do to get where they are, only to look forward to budget cuts, long hours (mostly from a job that follows them home), and more or less dealing with people who view you as a source of misery.

Oh wait... see what I did there? 

Each one has their rewards unique to their profession, and it is those things that drew them to the job. 
With things being so similar as they are, maybe we should spend less time trying to throw each other under the bus, and more time trying to recognize each other for their effort. 

I will say that it is unfair to demand that one needs to have more training and in the same breath demand that they be paid less.

*oh, and btw, At least where I went to school anyways, the Teacher's (at least most of them) were not paid during the summer.  They could be often found working a "summer job" just like the students they teach.

[nesagsar]

Can we please call off topic or something here? It's getting ugly.

[FARRIER]

Can we please call off topic or something here? It's getting ugly.

"You people need to lay off public schools.  We do the best job we can with our hands tied in may cases."

Again, just quoting Joe. You have to expect pushback if you respond like that.

[FlyTiger77]

They chose their lot in life, and I am glad for what they do...they also, many time, get 24 on and 24 off.  Get paid for overtime and aren't judged by the work others do.  They only have to fight fires and apprehend criminals (some of which they can use deadly force to comply).

Emphasis mine.

Incredible.

And Soldiers only have to go to war while teachers do the hardest job in the world in the worst possible conditions? Or is it that Soldiers also merely choose their lot while teachers are issued an undeniable call?

Puh-lease.

[BillB]

Can we get back to the topic instead of talking about teachers?

[Major Lord]

Wow, I sure did not mean to turn this into a dog pile on Sparky! In all fairness though, he did seem to be making an argument for the status quo. The idea that teachers are not complicit in the irrational discipline system of public education in my mind does not hold water. The Teachers Unions' are the primary advocates for these frankly soviet-style indoctrination systems, and absent their consent, these policies would not be enforced. (that's why its called "organized" crime)

Again, not to dogpile on the public schools, but it is apparent that they have an agenda. The Catholic Diocese of New York offered to take the bottom 10% of of the students in New York and educate them. The Teachers Union would just not have it; the results would be predictably embarrassing. It has been argued ( and written about by the founders of Americas public education) that the public schools are intentionally designed to ensure that we always have a "working" (i.e., impoverished) class.  I don't think that many would deny at this point that almost any home school or private school offers a better opportunity for success that nearly any public school. The concept is well demonstrated in comparing our elementary to our college systems. America's Elementary Schools are considered to be among the poorest in the developed nations, but our College system is the envy and the refuge of the free, and sometimes not so free, world. The difference? Competition and free markets.

In the California Schools, teachers flee from free markets like hookers from church. Attempts to introduce a "Voucher System" have met with the entire weight of the N.E.A. being focused on preventing a freer market. Many public school teachers are openly moving to criminalize home schools. I don't think we should depend on the benevolence of teachers and their alleged poor conditions. I note that my wife, a public school teacher, has a salary and benefit package in excess of 140,000 dollars per year for what private industry would consider a part time job (8-3, 180 days per year) Although I have to admit I benefit from this, it is clearly the reason California is circling the drain financially.

Sparky, unlike other parts of the Nation, we know that Texas is still part of the American Dream, so don't take this personally. There is not a thing wrong with the profession of teaching, but I believe it is undeniable that education per se is only at best, a secondary goal of the public school system.

Major Lord

[JayT]

Spacemom: as a police officer, i have to almost double the continuing education that what you cited that teachers need... where are my tax payer days off to get that done? oh wait, i have to do them on my normal days off, or with my vacation time....

Major Carrales, Up until this point, i had a lot of respect for you...but i have lost it all. Did you just really say "They only have to fight fires and apprehend criminals (some of which they can use deadly force to comply)" about police and fire fighters? I really really hope to god you say that the next time your involved in an auto accident, or need fire rescue for a medical call....

How dare you say that. In my post I thanked you for teaching, and said some teachers are good, but you throw ALL cops and firemen under the bus like that?

I do more in one shift than you can ever dream, I have seen THE worst of the worst. Kids blowing there brains out and mom and dad coming home and crying on MY shoulder. Traffic accidents where grandmothers are thrown from the car at 75mph because a drunk decided to drive home that night. Wife beating worthless "men", murders and gang bangers. ( and I seen all that on active duty before I went to a civilian department)

So enjoy your desk job with those kids that are soooooo hard to work with. I will trade you any day, lets see how long YOU last on the street of St Louis..... because with words like that about your other first responders you wont have much backup when you need it.

Listern, lay off him. Every cop, fireman, and medic thinks there command is the best and the buisest and that they've had the toughest assignments. You signed up for it. Why don't you talk about all of the times you were sitting in your RMP not working, or on meal, or shooting the bull with the rest of the guys on your tour?

[N Harmon]

A CAP cadet gets booted from school under identical circumstances-How is it handled within the Squadron? Ignored? Mocked" 2B? Flogging or keelhauling?

Without good evidence of the violation of CAP core values, we maintain a presumption of innocence until proven guilty. We also defer to parents as to whether their son/daughter should continue to participate in CAP. As long as the cadet maintains good discipline at the squadron and is not a threat to any other cadets, we see no reason to take the school's internal actions as binding on us any more than we would expect schools to suspend or expel students as a result of disciplinary actions in CAP.

That said, the circumstances of this particular case are only what we see in the media account. Were any of the students to whom this individual was spitting airsoft pellets also JROTC cadets? Because the CAP cadet protection policy applies to cadet on cadet behavior outside of CAP, and such a circumstance would require greater scrutiny.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The blacks, of course, whined, and the school, of course, caved.  They outlawed the display of the Stars and Bars and the playing of "Dixie."

Yeah, gotta watch up for those darned uppity blacks. Who would of guessed that attending a school who sported a symbol of four hundred years of cultural oppression would rile them up?

Statements like that should make every good American sick to their stomachs.

Or, they could use the opportunity to educate everyone about the effort made to free the black slaves, and the sacrifices of Americans over four bloody years to bring the promise of freedom to them.  But then, THAT would be actual education, and not politically-correct mind-mumbing brainwashing.

[Pylon]

And this is completely out of hand.  Lock.