Clearly, Cadets are evil......

[Major Lord]

These JROTC cadets must be real hooligans! I am glad that CAP cadets would never engage in terrorism like this!  http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=256917

So here is my question: A CAP cadet gets booted from school under identical circumstances-How is it handled within the Squadron? Ignored? Mocked" 2B? Flogging or keelhauling?

Major Lord

[Major Carrales]

These JROTC cadets must be real hooligans! I am glad that CAP cadets would never engage in terrorism like this!  http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=256917

So here is my question: A CAP cadet gets booted from school under identical circumstances-How is it handled within the Squadron? Ignored? Mocked" 2B? Flogging or keelhauling?

Major Lord

Its a disruption of class, In School Suspension (ISS) would have been the better punishment.   In Texas a disruption of class can result in a citation.

Many of you forget that the purpose of school is education and that it is a teacher's job to instruct the subject matter, not babysit students.   And then, who can forget the parents that enable immature behavior by defending their children even in cases where those children are clearly guilty.  If one's child cannot behave in a public school setting, please...get them out of there and teach them yourself.  I am a big proponent of home schooling despite being a public school teacher.

Both the student and the school should have exercised better judgment.  The student should have refrained from shooting anyone with anything and the School should have handed out a more fitting punishment.

[jeders]

I agree with Joe that ISS/OCS would have been a far better punishment. Considering the number of times that this sort of thing is done every year in every school in the country, I would say that even a 10 day suspension was slightly on the excessive side.

As far as what would be done in CAP, I'd warn the cadet that if he does that in CAP, he's gone. Other than that, let him continue in the program. Perhaps CAP is what will keep him from going down a long bad road.

[Major Carrales]

I agree with Joe that ISS/OCS would have been a far better punishment. Considering the number of times that this sort of thing is done every year in every school in the country, I would say that even a 10 day suspension was slightly on the excessive side.

As far as what would be done in CAP, I'd warn the cadet that if he does that in CAP, he's gone. Other than that, let him continue in the program. Perhaps CAP is what will keep him from going down a long bad road.

I agree, for this sort of thing a warning should be given.  This tests the integrity of the cadet, if the cadet fails to learn from the lesson...or promises to refrain from such acts and does similar again, then they lack integrity, a core value, and we can take more drastic action. 

Now, had this been a genuine assault...the result of something much more serious than "spit wads..." more drastic action should be taken.   

[a2capt]

So much for expungement - even if he does play the game, and finish HS as a home school student, if this is cause for any possible chance at acceptance to the academy ..

So, if it was a real gun, would the punishment been the same, with the same chances of concealment?

Lame.

[Major Carrales]

There is a good chance that the school was "grandstanding" or "making an example," in my opinion.  Either that or that there are some other circumstances that the article does not delve into.  We often tend to make judgments on these things with less facts that is necessary.

[Flying Pig]

STUPID!  I cant tell you how many schools I have been to where school admin has completely gone crazy with this zero tolerance.  What I love the best is when I tell a Vice Principle that there is no crime and that its an internal school issue. Something like a girl taking a fingernail file to school and using it in class and the admin calls it a "weapon".  Even though she was doing her nails.  Or when a student calls another student "gay" or "fag" and some administrator wants a police report.  You can see it takes the wind out of their sails.  They wanted the police to do something so THEY wouldn't look like the bad guy.  They have all the guts in the world to call the police, but when we tell them its not am LE issue, they get this "Oh crap" look on their face.

Kids getting suspended for fighting when they were CLEARLY defending themselves or another weaker student is what irks me the most.  Even when its all caught on a CCTV.  Complete inability to think. And people wonder why in society to people do not want to get involved.  Schools wonder why kids have no respect for them.  I was a campus officer for about 3 months once.  Let me tell you...that was the toughest assignment I think I ever worked.  When a fight came out, I would investigate it.  If it was just two knuckleheads bumping chest, OK, both of you are out of here.  But if it was a case of self defense, or there was a history of bullying or its a case of a student coming to the aid of a weaker student and the school wanted to suspend the victim and the good samaritan, I would write a report documenting that very thing.  I had a football player lay out a little gangster because he was coming to the aid of a weaker kid who was being picked on.  I told the vice principle that this football player needed a parade at lunch time in his honor, not to be suspended.  But.....rules are rules I was told.  Personally, the VP was a non-vertebrate who had a complete inability to see the situation.  He was afraid to make a decision is what it was.    I wrote a very detailed report with several student witness accounts that the football player was in fact the hero.  I made sure mom and dad got a copy for their records.  A Senior getting suspended while applying to colleges is not good timing. 

This spit wad incident? Please.  Unless this kid was continual problem.  However, based on the article, Im thinking emptying trash cans at lunch.  If this were my cadet, I figure I don't work for the school.  I would not apply this "blanket mentality" to my cadet.  I have the ability to think and investigate on my own.  If I believe the school was wrong, I am not going to compound the problem by jumping on the bandwagon that is clearly headed down the wrong road.  If this was a decent cadet, I dont know that I would do much.  My decisions arent going to be based on the actions of another organization that I feel is inept.  Now, if he ends up being criminally charged and convicted of something?  Then my hands start getting tied to a point.  But administrative decisions by a school arent binding to me as a CC.  Especially if there is another side of the coin.

[ZigZag911]

"Zero Tolerance" is an excuse for school administrators and school boards to duck the responsibility of making judgment calls...it conveys a PC sense of 'fairness', in which their is one, ultimate punishment for every crime!

Dumb doesn't begin to describe it.

Can't see any reason for the cadet's squadron to raise this issue with him.

[Major Lord]

I think that "Zero Tolerance" is much more that just an attempt by the Educational Group-Think to duck using reason and apply appropriate judgment. ( Although there is plenty of evidence to suggest that, at least in CA schools, they are nearly absent of both capabilities) The Zero Tolerance Policies quite frequently end in civil litigation against the schools, and if their intent was to avoid complications by applying a single algorithm, it has backfired tremendously.  The example of kids having U.S. Flag Pins characterized as "gang attire", an honor student expelled for "Narcotics" for being in possession of Midol, a Kindergartner being expelled for drawing a picture of his Army-dad carrying a gun, and possession of a Bible viewed as "Hate Speech" are not the most grievous examples. Clearly, public schools have a Political agenda, and it looks like indoctrination is a higher priority than education. If Education is the sole priority of public schools, than thank God we have a lot of Home-school kids in CAP!

Major Lord

[Eclipse]

This is a waste of everyone's time, and an inappropriate punishment considering the actual level of "crime".  In my high school, depending on the class / teacher, this kind of behavior would have resulted in:

1) A book thrown across the room with a hearty "knock it off!"  (Social Studies)

2) A choice between "3 hits (paddle) or 3 hours (detention)I'd take the hits" (Shop)

3) A trip to the dean's office with a similar "offer" of "hours" and the prayer they would not call my dad. (English class)

The bar of expulsion was somewhat higher in my youth, although that was before we started seeing the level of teen angst and violence in
schools which were considered otherwise "safe".

With that said, he's been suspended from school and charged criminally.  You can commiserate with the cadet and his family, but it would be hard to not suspend him from CAP on those grounds.  There's no way he can maintain academic excellence when he's suspended.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

What Flying Pig is talking about is a good example of The Peter Principle on behalf of (too) many school administrators today.

The "zero tolerance" bit is a good example of passing the buck: "I don't want to deal with it, so kick the kid out."

My great-niece's high school expelled a girl for giving another girl (who asked for one) a Midol.

Spitwads?  When I was in high school that was the least of one's worries.  I remember bad actors taking pins and attaching makeshift paper fins to them and shooting THOSE at other kids.

Of course, back in my day, "jocks" were The Exalted Ones and never, ever were held culpable for trouble, and it was always assumed that the small, shy kid getting bullied must have "asked for it" and was usually told to "ignore it."

If it were a CAP cadet doing something like that at school s/he should be watched closely to see if that kind of behaviour exhibits itself in CAP.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

3) A trip to the dean's office with a similar "offer" of "hours" and the prayer they would not call my dad. (English class)

I would rather have had the school call the juvenile authorities than my dad.  I could have stood a better chance of reasoning with them.

[Eclipse]

Not that it changes my opinion, but we should call a spade a spade - these were clearly airsoft pellets, harmless, yes, but not spitwads.

[Eclipse]

3) A trip to the dean's office with a similar "offer" of "hours" and the prayer they would not call my dad. (English class)

I would rather have had the school call the juvenile authorities than my dad.  I could have stood a better chance of reasoning with them.

No kidding - I was telling my kids the other day about how things used to work - Sister would give you a well-deserved smacking with the ruler,
and you didn't come home and tell mom, because rather than sue the school, mom would be wanting to know why you hacked off Sister and
there might be more smacking coming your way!

[a2capt]

Heh, unless you did like me- and grabbed that ruler on the inbound swing, broke it in half, and said "No, you are not going to hit me with that." and put it on the desk.

This scenario would have not nil in the mid-80's, when I was in high school. In fact, if thats all they had to deal with I'm sure they would have been thrilled. I don't remember what they were called, but these guns shot little yellow rubber balls about that same size, and they bounced really good. I used to shoot them from a pistol down the hallway in the house, into a shoebox with tinfoil on it, collect them back up, reload and do it again.

I brought the thing to 3rd grade once, we were all shooting with it during lunch. You know darn well that wouldn't fly here, now. The reason I never brought it back? Most of the ammo got lost and it cost too much to get more

[manfredvonrichthofen]

If I were the one going into that court room I would have three simple items that almost every teacher has in their desk; a Bic pen, one fat rubber band, and a paper clip. I would ask the principle on the stand if she had those items in her desk, if she does I would ask if she thinks she deserves the same punishment. If not I would ask her why not? These items could be more dangerous than what that student had. The pen could easily be taken apart, and the paper clip straightened out and broken into three pieces and the rubber band used as the firing mechanism. Hell, even if the school has a large cutting board with a large bladed handle, the bladed handle could be taken off and used as a sword. Teachers even have large sharp scissors.

This is a large steaming pile of male cow fecal matter! This is a prime example why there should be no school boards making up rules for schools, parents should be coming together to make up the rules. This principal should just be removed from her position, because it sounds like she is just tired of kids.

[a2capt]

Exactly. With that mentality, and thats where it's leading - Wal*Mart is a giant store of weapons. Knives, swords, ropes, mallets, etc. Ridiculous.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Gotta start making the kids eat off of Styrofoam plates with their fingers. We can't give them trays because they could beat each other to death with them, no sporks because of their deadly tongs, no plastic spoons because they can be sharpened on the side walk into shivs. God forbid a teacher would bring in a steak for lunch and have to use a knife on it.

Come on, if you are now over the age of 25 when you were in high school you had friends, or you yourself had a gun rack in your truck's back window, and it was full. People are going nuts about some of the stupidest things in the world, and not doing anything about some of the worst things in the world.

[SARDOC]

Since he was suspended for having a "weapon" capable of firing a projectile in school.  I think the rule should be applied fairly...any teacher or student with a dangerous pen such as the one this student possessed should be suspended for the rest of the year.  Next year they'll use pencils...hmm..you can stab someone with a pencil....Crayons...everyone must use crayons.   Don't even get me started with all those lunch ladies and their straws.

[HGjunkie]

This makes me hate the rules of the public school system more and more. They micromanage this kind of crap but let bigger things fly(I've seen it happen too many times to count).

[AngelWings]

The story makes me want to punch a cactus. No wonder kids are getting stupider. The school's staff isn't much intelligent etiher, now.

[tsrup]

I was expelled the second week of my Junior Year of HS under the same type of zero tolerance policy.  Same exact method too, 10 days suspended, then school board action to expel.  There were politics involved too, If we went to the press I wouldn't be allowed to enroll in online classes, If I pushed to the school board for appeal, I would miss the registration date for online classes.   

This event was the catalyst for me joining CAP in the first place, as I was in JROTC in High School and wanted an outlet for that.
(I even brought in another cadet the next year that had the same thing happen as well.)

Did online classes and went back the next year.  Graduated on time with the rest of my class mates, got accepted into college just fine.

Not saying I wasn't an idiot in High School, but this kind of heavy handedness does not solve any kind of problem, it just creates more.  A person with real intent of using a weapon and breaking the law isn't going to give a second thought to breaking a school policy.

I empathize with the kid whole heartedly, hopefully he stays involved with something positive while he's not in school and stays focused on what his goals are.  It sucks, and its hard, but do it, get through it, and move on.

[Flying Pig]

Boys shoot stuff at each other.  Thats why we are boys.  Its engrained in our psychology.  A hunting instinct. Thinning the herd.  Lame school administrators who have never been in a fight are intimidated by our warrior mentality.  The sheep is trying to weed out the sheepdog.  There is something wrong with a boy who doesnt want to play war or cops and robbers at least once in their lives!

[nesagsar]

When I was in public school I ran into a situation of obvious abuse and brought it to the principal. The administration backed the teacher 100%  because "We always take the teachers word above the child". That didn't go too well with me. I left and did two years of home schooling. When I returned to public school I was 13 years old and took the freshman placement exam for my high school to see what level of classes I could handle. I beat that 4 hour placement exam in 30 min and was given the option of college INSTEAD OF high school. I jumped on that in a hurry. Now I am 22 years old with an associates and a bachelors plus I am working for the federal government in emergency management. Looks like homeschooling turned out pretty well for me.

[Flying Pig]

Congrats that it worked out for you and your doing well, but not quite the same scenario discussed in the article.  At 10 years old, I imagine it was more your parent(s) decision to homeschool you vs your own though.

[JohnKachenmeister]

When I was a working copper, I got a call to a school.

Background:  the school nickname, in the SOUTH of Toledo, was the "Rebels."  The school opened in 1961, and, capitalizing on the 100th anniversary of the Civil War, the rebels adopted "Dixie" as their fight song, and a Confederate Battle Flag as their emblem.  (see where this is going?)

The blacks, of course, whined, and the school, of course, caved.  They outlawed the display of the Stars and Bars and the playing of "Dixie."

One senior took umbrage at this, and painted a Battle Flag on the roof of his car, then parked it under the principal's office window.  The principal wanted me to arrest the kid for a violation of the "Safe Schools Act." 

Not only did I not arrest the kid, I told the principal that any effort to interfere with the kid's First Amendment rights to petition the government for redress of grievances would result in HIM being arrested for "Interference With Civil Rights."

Once word got around about that, I couldn't buy a beer in the South End for about 6 months.  It isn't often that a district cop ends up a local folk hero! 

[cap235629]

My kids go to Southside High School and the schools fight song is still Dixie. The battle flag isn't allowed anymore because of Athletic Association rules but they even play Dixie when they play Little Rock Central High School.

[AngelWings]

It is ridiculous, really. I am in favor for all school systems to be FORCED to have test for sanity checks and to evaluate the staff. It isn't like a kid is going to KILL someone with a a few airsoft rounds. I've done worse than this kid. I've brought a paintball to school and I threw it at a wall in class. Luckily enough nobody noticed, so I was in the clear. In my particular school, the school has have expelled a bunch of idiots with bomb threats. 4-5 bomb threats last year. None of them real, either. I can see a kid being expelled for a detailed bomb threat. For blowing a few plastic airsoft rounds out of a pen, I would have to be put in a mental instution because I'd go crazy over that.

[LTC Don]

The real head-banging frustration here is; even though the father has started home-schooling, and indicates he will not return his son to the public school system, his property taxes will not be reduced as a result.  The school system is going to get their money from county government no matter what.  This is the case in most if not all the country.  Parents who home-school still pay taxes to the school system no matter what.

The end result is mediocrity, apathy, idiocy, and stupidity because there is no incentive to excel.

This is along the same lines as the student who had the parade rifles in the back of his vehicle, and got busted because of it.

Sad. 


Cheers,

[JayT]

The blacks, of course, whined, and the school, of course, caved.  They outlawed the display of the Stars and Bars and the playing of "Dixie."

Yeah, gotta watch up for those darned uppity blacks. Who would of guessed that attending a school who sported a symbol of four hundred years of cultural oppression would rile them up?

Statements like that should make every good American sick to their stomachs.

[AngelWings]

The real head-banging frustration here is; even though the father has started home-schooling, and indicates he will not return his son to the public school system, his property taxes will not be reduced as a result.  The school system is going to get their money from county government no matter what.  This is the case in most if not all the country.  Parents who home-school still pay taxes to the school system no matter what.

The end result is mediocrity, apathy, idiocy, and stupidity because there is no incentive to excel.

This is along the same lines as the student who had the parade rifles in the back of his vehicle, and got busted because of it.

Sad. 


Cheers,

Good point  :clap: . I think we should all petition this over the top tax, the overly stupid and quite frankly we should protest some of the rule's, or change them to include common sense and fairness. This is in a sense the reason why left Britan. We wanted freedoms and we wanted common sense. We had that until some stupid people came along. I'd be compelled to start a protest over this. Ionly fear that my freedom of speech wouldn't be taken away from me by some stupid princibal and his opinion's.

[NCRblues]

I went to high school in a solid 'blue" (read liberal) area. When i joined CAP, on veterans day, the cap cadets (i.e. me) helped out the veterans put on a display about veterans day. They would have a helo from one of the local guard units or some from Scott AFB fly in and land on the football field. The veterans loved when i would help out. I could explain to the local kids the "military way of things" in a manner the kids could understand.

Anyway, my junior year we had a new head principle come in. He would not let the veterans put on the display, would not allow the helo to come in, and banned me from wearing my uniform to school (or any military style uniforms for that manner).

My grandfather (a ww2 combat vet) got a lawyer and filed suit against the school district. We won, turns out they cant limit military style uniform in schools, or a veterans day display in the great state of Missouri. 

It is so sad that we have come to this in America....sometimes it makes me almost ill to hear about the things our public brainwashing...i mean.... schools do.....

[caphornbuckle]

A great line I got from a bumper sticker YEARS ago:

  "ANUDER MINED DISTROID BI DUH PUBLIK EDUKASHUN SISTM!"

Thought it would fit in here!   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I remember back in grade school in the '70s, if two kids got caught fighting, they took them down to the gym, put boxing gloves on them and let them fight it out, with the school nurse there as supervision.

[Major Carrales]

You people need to lay off public schools.  We do the best job we can with our hands tied in may cases.

We spend most of our time dealing with classroom discipline instead of focusing on the education of the student.  We teach everyone from cases of severe disability to those needing of a challenge IN THE SAME CLASS AT THE SAME TIME.

Be tolerant...really, some of you are making statements as if all public school teachers are some crazy idiot type.  If you don't want to participate...home school.  See how easy it is to stay home and teach a child to read, write, cipher and do social studies and science.  Keep in mind, you will have only your children...extraordinary rights to discipline and no administration to pressure you form every angle.

You probably won't have 30 at a time in desks too small for them, unreasonable parents, transfer students with criminal records (that you won't be told about until you are assaulted or threatened) or disrespectful students mouthing off to you.

While the actions of the above school's admin was questionable...remember that public school teachers are subject matter experts in their field that only want to teach students about that subject.

[caphornbuckle]

You people need to lay off public schools.  We do the best job we can with our hands tied in may cases.

We spend most of our time dealing with classroom discipline instead of focusing on the education of the student.  We teach everyone from cases of severe disability to those needing of a challenge IN THE SAME CLASS AT THE SAME TIME.

Be tolerant...really, some of you are making statements as if all public school teachers are some crazy idiot type.  If you don't want to participate...home school.  See how easy it is to stay home and teach a child to read, write, cipher and do social studies and science.  Keep in mind, you will have only your children...extraordinary rights to discipline and no administration to pressure you form every angle.

You probably won't have 30 at a time in desks too small for them, unreasonable parents, transfer students with criminal records (that you won't be told about until you are assaulted or threatened) or disrespectful students mouthing off to you.

While the actions of the above school's admin was questionable...remember that public school teachers are subject matter experts in their field that only want to teach students about that subject.

First of all:  Thank you for being a teacher!  :clap:
Teachers have the toughest job in the world...to teach our future's leaders.

I drove a school bus for 6 1/2 years.  I have seen these kids do just about everything. I've been kicked, punched, cussed at, spit on, threatened with bodily harm, you name it!  Most of it by the parents! Try doing that with 65 kids and alone with no immediate backup if something happens.

I don't think teachers are really related to this subject though.  It's the administrative side of things that are causing issues.

The school board in my town has adopted a "uniform policy" to help with discipline and education issues.  This has been going on for a few years now and (according to the newspaper) there are no changes with either.  My daughter was going to be sent home from school because she forgot to put on her belt.  I had to take it to the school.  This had me upset because the day before, she forgot her backpack with her homework in it and nothing was said.  Needless to say, the principal practically threw me out of the school because I was upset that they were worried more about what was on my child's body than what's going in her head.  She's in a charter school now.  Uniforms?  Yes...but it's voluntary now because we have her in the school!

Eventually, I believe we'll end up in grey coveralls and shaved heads to make sure our kids are learning.

Like I said...not the teacher's fault...they have to suffer with us, if not more.

[NCRblues]

You people need to lay off public schools.  We do the best job we can with our hands tied in may cases.

We spend most of our time dealing with classroom discipline instead of focusing on the education of the student.  We teach everyone from cases of severe disability to those needing of a challenge IN THE SAME CLASS AT THE SAME TIME.

Be tolerant...really, some of you are making statements as if all public school teachers are some crazy idiot type.  If you don't want to participate...home school.  See how easy it is to stay home and teach a child to read, write, cipher and do social studies and science.  Keep in mind, you will have only your children...extraordinary rights to discipline and no administration to pressure you form every angle.

You probably won't have 30 at a time in desks too small for them, unreasonable parents, transfer students with criminal records (that you won't be told about until you are assaulted or threatened) or disrespectful students mouthing off to you.

While the actions of the above school's admin was questionable...remember that public school teachers are subject matter experts in their field that only want to teach students about that subject.

First off, no i don't need to lay off public schools. I think i will take  my first amendment rights and complain about a failing system that i pay a LARGE amount of money into (taxes).

Second, subject matter experts? Really, your going to try that line on me. In the school districts around st Louis all you need to sub is an associates degree, and all you need to teach is a 4 year bachelor degree....experts? I think not.

Most teachers are anything BUT experts and simply read the materials. I know of teachers that have a bachelors degree in history, that are teaching English, art and American lit. Are you going to say that she is an "expert" on all of that as well. I have a degree in military history, does that make me a subject matter expert? No, more educated on those issues, sure, but no where near an "expert".

The teachers around me get paid 50k plus a year. They get 2 weeks vacation, sick leave, family emergency leave, "teacher professional development time", and all of June and July off. On top of all of that, the get holidays off as well, oh and when it snows they get snow days. I haven't had a snow day in years. They are in unions that cry foul when there tax money is cut, complain about the amount of work they have, and how they are underpaid. Underpaid?? give me a break, police officers around here make less.

American education if failing rapidly. Our test scores for our kids are below most of Europe and some Asian country's now. My tax money goes into this system of fail, i have a vested interest in this.

Could you imagine if A fire crew did not go into work because it was snowing? Or if the police force took a summer vacation all at once?

i know some teachers work very hard to educate our children, but the ones that don't, the ones that make up crazy rules and "zero tolerance" policy's are dragging everything down with them. You cant put all the blame on the "administration" because the teachers have the most contact with kids. A 17 year old high school student is still a human, has emotions, bad days, and good days. They (sometimes) hold jobs, an outside activity (CAP, BSA, ext..) and still go to school. Expecting perfect performance all the time, by every person in the school is impossible.

So thanks for teaching Major Carrales, i know it can be hard, and i wish it was not that way, but welcome to the world.

Life is a bi&^$ and then you die....

Rant over

[FARRIER]

Joe, sorry, but some of the schools have gone overboard. The high school in my area, which is in a town of 2,000, maybe 3,000 if you include the surrounding rual area, has made its goal education. But some make a name for themselves for nothing that has to do with education. A prime example below. This is just a snippet of the article:

"Jeremy Stoppel is a junior at Northglenn High School. On Sept. 3, he drove his pickup truck to school with two 3-foot-by-5-foot American flags flying from the back. He chose to display the flags as a way of honoring his cousin, who is serving in the United States Navy.

A school security guard confronted him and told him he'd have to remove the flags.

"She said that the school centers around diversity and she didn't want anyone feeling uncomfortable," says Stoppel. "


http://www.9news.com/rss/article.aspx?storyid=175943

[Major Carrales]

First off, no i don't need to lay off public schools. I think i will take  my first amendment rights and complain about a failing system that i pay a LARGE amount of money into (taxes).

Good, then respect mine when I tell you to lay off. 

Second, subject matter experts? Really, your going to try that line on me. In the school districts around st Louis all you need to sub is an associates degree, and all you need to teach is a 4 year bachelor degree....experts? I think not.

Yes, I'm gonna lay that on you because I am an historian first and a teacher second.  I teach American History and Texas History...I've studied it more than just what the certificate on the wall says.  A diploma no more makes a person a expert than a stamp actually delivers the mail.  Kindly refrain from lumping me or anyone else into the simplistic world you have developed.

Most teachers are anything BUT experts and simply read the materials. I know of teachers that have a bachelors degree in history, that are teaching English, art and American lit. Are you going to say that she is an "expert" on all of that as well. I have a degree in military history, does that make me a subject matter expert? No, more educated on those issues, sure, but no where near an "expert".

Some administrators force teachers from one subject to teach other subjects.  The justification is that we have some skill in the area of presenting materials.  The idea of a University is that a person gets a "universal" education with a major area of study.  I do not agree with the practice, however, would you have some person of the street as a sub covering the class until a person could be found to teach?  In the REAL WORLD, where school is mandated, that is the only solution possible.

The teachers around me get paid 50k plus a year. They get 2 weeks vacation, sick leave, family emergency leave, "teacher professional development time", and all of June and July off. On top of all of that, the get holidays off as well, oh and when it snows they get snow days. I haven't had a snow day in years. They are in unions that cry foul when there tax money is cut, complain about the amount of work they have, and how they are underpaid. Underpaid?? give me a break, police officers around here make less.

Good for them, I won't break 50,000 dollars a year until I am entering my 60s...if ever.  Regretful of your work...become a teacher.  Try it...I dare you.  Well see how long you last.  As for Unions, Texas is a right to work state and teacher unions have no power whatsoever.  I laugh when even people around here bring up unions...as if.

American education if failing rapidly. Our test scores for our kids are below most of Europe and some Asian country's now. My tax money goes into this system of fail, i have a vested interest in this.

You know why?  Because we teach EVERYONE, not just the select.  In China, Korea and many of these European nations you mention, when you hit the 8th Grade a choice is made.  College or work.  We, here in the Republic, educate EVERYONE.  The disabled, the mentally "special," the thug, the person who would rather be elsewhere.  It is illegal to be "selective" in the United States, with compulsory education, and we track everyone to college.  Kind of levels the playing field a bit.

Could you imagine if A fire crew did not go into work because it was snowing? Or if the police force took a summer vacation all at once?

They chose their lot in life, and I am glad for what they do...they also, many time, get 24 on and 24 off.  Get paid for overtime and aren't judged by the work others do.  They only have to fight fires and apprehend criminals (some of which they can use deadly force to comply).

i know some teachers work very hard to educate our children, but the ones that don't, the ones that make up crazy rules and "zero tolerance" policy's are dragging everything down with them. You cant put all the blame on the "administration" because the teachers have the most contact with kids.

Teachers have little power.  You are misinformed.  The administration has full control, teachers don't make policy.

A 17 year old high school student is still a human, has emotions, bad days, and good days. They (sometimes) hold jobs, an outside activity (CAP, BSA, ext..) and still go to school. Expecting perfect performance all the time, by every person in the school is impossible.

Yet you are calling for teachers to be perfect...to save every child...to MAKE THEM LEARN.  Impossible?  I agree...let's see you do better.

So thanks for teaching Major Carrales, i know it can be hard, and i wish it was not that way, but welcome to the world.

I teach by choice.  I could be an engineer if I wanted to, but I want to make a difference. AI want to teach students how to think about their world, how to solve problems free from brainwashing and agendism...I want them to learn about the history of our great NATION, NORTH AND SOUTH, EAST AND WEST.  Remember, a teacher is still a human,  we have emotions, bad days, and good days. We hold our jobs, an outside activity (CAP, BSA, FAMILYext..) and still go to school to do our best. Expecting perfect performance all the time, by every teacher in the school system is MANDATED.  Those that don't make the grade eventually leave.

Life is a bi&^$ and then you die....

Might be so, but its more about the journey than the destination.

[Major Carrales]

Joe, sorry, but some of the schools have gone overboard. The high school in my area, which is in a town of 2,000, maybe 3,000 if you include the surrounding rual area, has made its goal education. But some make a name for themselves for nothing that has to do with education. A prime example below. This is just a snippet of the article:

"Jeremy Stoppel is a junior at Northglenn High School. On Sept. 3, he drove his pickup truck to school with two 3-foot-by-5-foot American flags flying from the back. He chose to display the flags as a way of honoring his cousin, who is serving in the United States Navy.

A school security guard confronted him and told him he'd have to remove the flags.

"She said that the school centers around diversity and she didn't want anyone feeling uncomfortable," says Stoppel. "


http://www.9news.com/rss/article.aspx?storyid=175943

And the "front line" teachers were responsible for this how?

[Spaceman3750]

"teacher professional development time"

I'm going to single this one out because the quotes seem to imply some contempt towards teacher PD time. Teachers are required to have many, many hours of CPDU's to renew their license. 120 hours every 5 years is what my state requires, and since teacher institute/school improvement days frequently don't count for CPDU's they may have to take time off of work to earn these credits. Most of them go to workshops in the evenings that they're not paid to attend. Your employer doesn't send you to a conference or other professional event?

Also, what you apparently don't know is that teachers work the hours they're paid for, plus countless that they're not paid for. Many of the teachers I work with (I'm in the IT department for a school district) are well known for being at school by 6:30AM, not leaving until 5:30 or 6:00PM, then going home, having dinner, and grading until they go to bed. By my math, that's a 13 or 14 hour workday, only 8 of which they're paid for.

I pretty well doubt the teachers in your area get 2 weeks vacation in addition to regular breaks, but I'll take your word for it. Sick time - school personnel get a bit more sick time in schools than most, but that's because we work in an environment where disease spreads like wildfire.

Snow day's aren't about the teachers. 12 months staff (like me) still have to work. It's about how safe it is to operate buses in winter conditions or how safe it is for children to be standing at the bus stop in -2F weather. Teachers getting snow days off is just a side effect of that.

The reason you only need an associate's degree to sub is because in grades 6-12 your subs are essentially babysitters and not much more.

Finally, the reason that school administrators have set crazy rules is because their students have crazy parents that let them get away with all kinds of BS. That doesn't make it right, it's simply an indication that the failure in our school system starts with a failure in the home.

Edit: Wow, I can't proofread. That means it's time for bed...

[nesagsar]

Congrats that it worked out for you and your doing well, but not quite the same scenario discussed in the article.  At 10 years old, I imagine it was more your parent(s) decision to homeschool you vs your own though.

My mother wanted me to go to high school. It was my decision to homeschool myself. And I mean that, for the most part it was just me. My parents were busy getting their college degrees so I read their books from the previous semester. I also played a whole lot of video games. That helped me learn math.

[SarDragon]

A big part of the failure in education is the parents. Sadly, they have poor values because their parents, the folks of my generation, neglected to pass them on. All those kids and college students who rejected societal rules and values in the late '60s, and all through the '70s, are the grandparents of today. The folks that were called "hippies" back then.

As of the schools themselves, frequently the administrators have not been teachers, or are so removed from teaching that they are really no longer educators. The same goes for school boards. I've seen too many people who simply use a school board position as a political springboard. When you have that kind of people making the rules, sometimes the rules suck. I don't blame the teachers for that.

[FARRIER]

The real head-banging frustration here is; even though the father has started home-schooling, and indicates he will not return his son to the public school system, his property taxes will not be reduced as a result.  The school system is going to get their money from county government no matter what.  This is the case in most if not all the country.  Parents who home-school still pay taxes to the school system no matter what.

The end result is mediocrity, apathy, idiocy, and stupidity because there is no incentive to excel.

This is along the same lines as the student who had the parade rifles in the back of his vehicle, and got busted because of it.

Sad. 


Cheers,

Is this the incident your thinking about?

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=109380&catid=339

This was the kicker on this one, "Morrow, who has already secured the necessary recommendation from a member of Congress to attend the Merchant Marine Academy, has been told an expulsion would not derail her eventual acceptance to the Academy".

[Major Carrales]

A big part of the failure in education is the parents. Sadly, they have poor values because their parents, the folks of my generation, neglected to pass them on. All those kids and college students who rejected societal rules and values in the late '60s, and all through the '70s, are the grandparents of today. The folks that were called "hippies" back then.

As of the schools themselves, frequently the administrators have not been teachers, or are so removed from teaching that they are really no longer educators. The same goes for school boards. I've seen too many people who simply use a school board position as a political springboard. When you have that kind of people making the rules, sometimes the rules suck. I don't blame the teachers for that.

So true, as I have seen it via history...that era was one of general "counterculture" where the established traditions were questioned and, in many places, scrapped for nothing more than that purpose.  Change for change's sake.

The problem with that is that sometimes the "traditions" are not wrong.  Sometimes they exist for a purpose...when you lose too much tradition, you lose too much of your culture.

History generally also recalls that the "Hippies" eventually "wised up" and became the "Yuppies" of the 1980s.  However, by this time, much damage had been done.  Now we are cynical for no reason, have faith in nothing and expect some "magic pills" type solutions to everything when all of the historical record negates such things.

[FARRIER]

Your own quote, "I teach by choice." If Administrators are creating the unreal environments like the one below, or the unsafe ones you describe, and the teachers decide to stay at that school, they are individually voting for it by staying put. Parents home school or put their kids in charter schools if they think environment is not conducive to learning. Prime example of teachers voting with their feet, again, the local Elementry/Middle/High School System in my area, used to be a training school. The teachers, right out of college with their teaching certificates, stayed two years, then moved on to the bigger and better schools. Now, the school has applicants with their Masters Degree for the same positions. Its one of the better schools. I work in Aerospace. The company just hired a former High School Math Teacher doing something not even related to her degree. She quit because of the previous work environment at a major city school.

Joe, sorry, but some of the schools have gone overboard. The high school in my area, which is in a town of 2,000, maybe 3,000 if you include the surrounding rual area, has made its goal education. But some make a name for themselves for nothing that has to do with education. A prime example below. This is just a snippet of the article:

"Jeremy Stoppel is a junior at Northglenn High School. On Sept. 3, he drove his pickup truck to school with two 3-foot-by-5-foot American flags flying from the back. He chose to display the flags as a way of honoring his cousin, who is serving in the United States Navy.

A school security guard confronted him and told him he'd have to remove the flags.

"She said that the school centers around diversity and she didn't want anyone feeling uncomfortable," says Stoppel. "


http://www.9news.com/rss/article.aspx?storyid=175943

And the "front line" teachers were responsible for this how?

[Major Carrales]

Your own quote, "I teach by choice." If Administrators are creating the unreal environments like the one below, or the unsafe ones you describe, and the teachers decide to stay at that school, they are individually voting for it by staying put. Parents home school or put their kids in charter schools if they think environment is not conducive to learning. Prime example of teachers voting with their feet, again, the local Elementry/Middle/High School System in my area, used to be a training school. The teachers, right out of college with their teaching certificates, stayed two years, then moved on to the bigger and better schools. Now, the school has applicants with their Masters Degree for the same positions. Its one of the better schools. I work in Aerospace. The company just hired a former High School Math Teacher doing something not even related to her degree. She quit because of the previous work environment at a major city school.

Joe, sorry, but some of the schools have gone overboard. The high school in my area, which is in a town of 2,000, maybe 3,000 if you include the surrounding rual area, has made its goal education. But some make a name for themselves for nothing that has to do with education. A prime example below. This is just a snippet of the article:

"Jeremy Stoppel is a junior at Northglenn High School. On Sept. 3, he drove his pickup truck to school with two 3-foot-by-5-foot American flags flying from the back. He chose to display the flags as a way of honoring his cousin, who is serving in the United States Navy.

A school security guard confronted him and told him he'd have to remove the flags.

"She said that the school centers around diversity and she didn't want anyone feeling uncomfortable," says Stoppel. "


http://www.9news.com/rss/article.aspx?storyid=175943

And the "front line" teachers were responsible for this how?

You have it backwards....if a school is in trouble you stay and do your part to fix it.  "Voting with your feet" is a good way to turn your back on the problem.  I've been in my school for 13 years...I believe I can help the students.  Those students need people to care about them.  I started a school newspaper and brought CAP to the middle school.

If I walk, the school loses an asset.

Students can "vote with their feet" if their parents allow it, but...in South Texas, there is little place for them to go.

Teachers have to have "staying power" and invest emotionally in the schools where they teach...that's the ticket.  Not running from the problem and then coming on line and taking a swat at Public Schools.

I know this profession is not for everyone, and those that can't do it really need to be elsewhere.

However, I doubt that a majority of families in my area could or would ever home school their children, and, according to your concept...if in private schools they could walk at the first sign of a challenge (that is, if s Private School would accept them to begin with).

Private Schools/Charter Schools tend to work because they can be selective or hold strict levels of criteria to enter or remain there.  Remove that...force them to TAKE EVERYONE, like a public school and they would BECOME PUBLIC SCHOOLS.  All the benefits would be negated.

[SarDragon]

Some administrators force teachers from one subject to teach other subjects.  The justification is that we have some skill in the area of presenting materials.  The idea of a University is that a person gets a "universal" education with a major area of study.  I do not agree with the practice, however, would you have some person of the street as a sub covering the class until a person could be found to teach?  In the REAL WORLD, where school is mandated, that is the only solution possible.

There's a lot more of that practice in the training environment. When I became an instructor/trainer in the Navy, they sent me to school to learn how to do the instruction, along with a little training on curriculum development, with the expectation that we would go to our duty station, take a course, and then teach it. The system works in that environment, because we have a fixed course curriculum, and standardized lesson guides. The specialization required was that you were instructing courses based on your broad technical specialty - electronics, mechanics, etc. A cook wouldn't instruct at an electronics school, nor vice versa.

That's a good way to structure subs - make sure they have minimum education courses, hand them a lesson guide, and put them to work.

In my time in CAP, using my instructor training, I've taught Level I, SLS, Aero Ed classes, Radio Operator training, and maybe something else, too. (It gets to be a blur after a while.)

[FARRIER]

Then going back to the beginning and main point of this thread and your reply to it......

"Its a disruption of class, In School Suspension (ISS) would have been the better punishment.   In Texas a disruption of class can result in a citation." - For a first time, ISS is even to much. When I had my nephew living with me, I was on the phone with the principal a few times, getting the details, having a meeting with my nephew afterwords. At least I felt the school was working with me and I reinforced them.

"Many of you forget that the purpose of school is education and that it is a teacher's job to instruct the subject matter, not babysit students.   And then, who can forget the parents that enable immature behavior by defending their children even in cases where those children are clearly guilty.  If one's child cannot behave in a public school setting, please...get them out of there and teach them yourself.  I am a big proponent of home schooling despite being a public school teacher."
---- Your whining about the rotten parts of your job. Honestly, hearing you complain as a teacher doesn't communicate the same message to me. Is that negativity bleeding off into the teaching. Having started out in aviation, I was taught that if a person gets burnt out, they can become a safety factor. If a teacher gets burnt out, are they still teaching at the ability they once were?

Both the student and the school should have exercised better judgment.  The student should have refrained from shooting anyone with anything and the School should have handed out a more fitting punishment. - agreed

Your own quote, "I teach by choice." If Administrators are creating the unreal environments like the one below, or the unsafe ones you describe, and the teachers decide to stay at that school, they are individually voting for it by staying put. Parents home school or put their kids in charter schools if they think environment is not conducive to learning. Prime example of teachers voting with their feet, again, the local Elementry/Middle/High School System in my area, used to be a training school. The teachers, right out of college with their teaching certificates, stayed two years, then moved on to the bigger and better schools. Now, the school has applicants with their Masters Degree for the same positions. Its one of the better schools. I work in Aerospace. The company just hired a former High School Math Teacher doing something not even related to her degree. She quit because of the previous work environment at a major city school.

Joe, sorry, but some of the schools have gone overboard. The high school in my area, which is in a town of 2,000, maybe 3,000 if you include the surrounding rual area, has made its goal education. But some make a name for themselves for nothing that has to do with education. A prime example below. This is just a snippet of the article:

"Jeremy Stoppel is a junior at Northglenn High School. On Sept. 3, he drove his pickup truck to school with two 3-foot-by-5-foot American flags flying from the back. He chose to display the flags as a way of honoring his cousin, who is serving in the United States Navy.

A school security guard confronted him and told him he'd have to remove the flags.

"She said that the school centers around diversity and she didn't want anyone feeling uncomfortable," says Stoppel. "


http://www.9news.com/rss/article.aspx?storyid=175943

And the "front line" teachers were responsible for this how?

You have it backwards....if a school is in trouble you stay and do your part to fix it.  "Voting with your feet" is a good way to turn your back on the problem.  I've been in my school for 13 years...I believe I can help the students.  Those students need people to care about them.  I started a school newspaper and brought CAP to the middle school.

If I walk, the school loses an asset.

Students can "vote with their feet" if their parents allow it, but...in South Texas, there is little place for them to go.

Teachers have to have "staying power" and invest emotionally in the schools where they teach...that's the ticket.  Not running from the problem and then coming on line and taking a swat at Public Schools.

I know this profession is not for everyone, and those that can't do it really need to be elsewhere.

However, I doubt that a majority of families in my area could or would ever home school their children, and, according to your concept...if in private schools they could walk at the first sign of a challenge (that is, if s Private School would accept them to begin with).

Private Schools/Charter Schools tend to work because they can be selective or hold strict levels of criteria to enter or remain there.  Remove that...force them to TAKE EVERYONE, like a public school and they would BECOME PUBLIC SCHOOLS.  All the benefits would be negated.

[NCRblues]

Spacemom: as a police officer, i have to almost double the continuing education that what you cited that teachers need... where are my tax payer days off to get that done? oh wait, i have to do them on my normal days off, or with my vacation time....

Major Carrales, Up until this point, i had a lot of respect for you...but i have lost it all. Did you just really say "They only have to fight fires and apprehend criminals (some of which they can use deadly force to comply)" about police and fire fighters? I really really hope to god you say that the next time your involved in an auto accident, or need fire rescue for a medical call....

How dare you say that. In my post i thanked you for teaching, and said some teachers are good, but you throw ALL cops and firemen under the buss like that?

I do more in one shift than you can ever dream, i have seen THE worst of the worst. Kids blowing there brains out and mom and dad coming home and crying on MY shoulder. Traffic accidents where grandmothers are thrown from the car at 75mph because a drunk decided to drive home that night. Wife beating worthless "men", murders and gang bangers. ( and i seen all that on active duty before i went to a civilian department)

So enjoy your desk job with those kids that are soooooo hard to work with. I will trade you any day, lets see how long YOU last on the street of St Louis..... because with words like that about your other first responders you wont have much backup when you need it.

[tsrup]

Spacemom: as a police officer, i have to almost double the continuing education that what you cited that teachers need... where are my tax payer days off to get that done? oh wait, i have to do them on my normal days off, or with my vacation time....

Major Carrales, Up until this point, i had a lot of respect for you...but i have lost it all. Did you just really say "They only have to fight fires and apprehend criminals (some of which they can use deadly force to comply)" about police and fire fighters? I really really hope to god you say that the next time your involved in an auto accident, or need fire rescue for a medical call....

How dare you say that. In my post i thanked you for teaching, and said some teachers are good, but you throw ALL cops and firemen under the buss like that?

I do more in one shift than you can ever dream, i have seen THE worst of the worst. Kids blowing there brains out and mom and dad coming home and crying on MY shoulder. Traffic accidents where grandmothers are thrown from the car at 75mph because a drunk decided to drive home that night. Wife beating worthless "men", murders and gang bangers. ( and i seen all that on active duty before i went to a civilian department)

So enjoy your desk job with those kids that are soooooo hard to work with. I will trade you any day, lets see how long YOU last on the street of St Louis..... because with words like that about your other first responders you wont have much backup when you need it.

I think it's slightly hypocritical to take a government paycheck, and then complain that another tax payed employee is paid too much. 
I don't envy a teacher, the work they do to get their degree, only to look forward to budget cuts, long hours (mostly from a job that follows them home), and more or less dealing with people who view you as a source of misery.
I don't envy a policeman either.  The work they do to get where they are, only to look forward to budget cuts, long hours (mostly from a job that follows them home), and more or less dealing with people who view you as a source of misery.

Oh wait... see what I did there? 

Each one has their rewards unique to their profession, and it is those things that drew them to the job. 
With things being so similar as they are, maybe we should spend less time trying to throw each other under the bus, and more time trying to recognize each other for their effort. 

I will say that it is unfair to demand that one needs to have more training and in the same breath demand that they be paid less.

*oh, and btw, At least where I went to school anyways, the Teacher's (at least most of them) were not paid during the summer.  They could be often found working a "summer job" just like the students they teach.

[nesagsar]

Can we please call off topic or something here? It's getting ugly.

[FARRIER]

Can we please call off topic or something here? It's getting ugly.

"You people need to lay off public schools.  We do the best job we can with our hands tied in may cases."

Again, just quoting Joe. You have to expect pushback if you respond like that.

[FlyTiger77]

They chose their lot in life, and I am glad for what they do...they also, many time, get 24 on and 24 off.  Get paid for overtime and aren't judged by the work others do.  They only have to fight fires and apprehend criminals (some of which they can use deadly force to comply).

Emphasis mine.

Incredible.

And Soldiers only have to go to war while teachers do the hardest job in the world in the worst possible conditions? Or is it that Soldiers also merely choose their lot while teachers are issued an undeniable call?

Puh-lease.

[BillB]

Can we get back to the topic instead of talking about teachers?

[Major Lord]

Wow, I sure did not mean to turn this into a dog pile on Sparky! In all fairness though, he did seem to be making an argument for the status quo. The idea that teachers are not complicit in the irrational discipline system of public education in my mind does not hold water. The Teachers Unions' are the primary advocates for these frankly soviet-style indoctrination systems, and absent their consent, these policies would not be enforced. (that's why its called "organized" crime)

Again, not to dogpile on the public schools, but it is apparent that they have an agenda. The Catholic Diocese of New York offered to take the bottom 10% of of the students in New York and educate them. The Teachers Union would just not have it; the results would be predictably embarrassing. It has been argued ( and written about by the founders of Americas public education) that the public schools are intentionally designed to ensure that we always have a "working" (i.e., impoverished) class.  I don't think that many would deny at this point that almost any home school or private school offers a better opportunity for success that nearly any public school. The concept is well demonstrated in comparing our elementary to our college systems. America's Elementary Schools are considered to be among the poorest in the developed nations, but our College system is the envy and the refuge of the free, and sometimes not so free, world. The difference? Competition and free markets.

In the California Schools, teachers flee from free markets like hookers from church. Attempts to introduce a "Voucher System" have met with the entire weight of the N.E.A. being focused on preventing a freer market. Many public school teachers are openly moving to criminalize home schools. I don't think we should depend on the benevolence of teachers and their alleged poor conditions. I note that my wife, a public school teacher, has a salary and benefit package in excess of 140,000 dollars per year for what private industry would consider a part time job (8-3, 180 days per year) Although I have to admit I benefit from this, it is clearly the reason California is circling the drain financially.

Sparky, unlike other parts of the Nation, we know that Texas is still part of the American Dream, so don't take this personally. There is not a thing wrong with the profession of teaching, but I believe it is undeniable that education per se is only at best, a secondary goal of the public school system.

Major Lord

[JayT]

Spacemom: as a police officer, i have to almost double the continuing education that what you cited that teachers need... where are my tax payer days off to get that done? oh wait, i have to do them on my normal days off, or with my vacation time....

Major Carrales, Up until this point, i had a lot of respect for you...but i have lost it all. Did you just really say "They only have to fight fires and apprehend criminals (some of which they can use deadly force to comply)" about police and fire fighters? I really really hope to god you say that the next time your involved in an auto accident, or need fire rescue for a medical call....

How dare you say that. In my post I thanked you for teaching, and said some teachers are good, but you throw ALL cops and firemen under the bus like that?

I do more in one shift than you can ever dream, I have seen THE worst of the worst. Kids blowing there brains out and mom and dad coming home and crying on MY shoulder. Traffic accidents where grandmothers are thrown from the car at 75mph because a drunk decided to drive home that night. Wife beating worthless "men", murders and gang bangers. ( and I seen all that on active duty before I went to a civilian department)

So enjoy your desk job with those kids that are soooooo hard to work with. I will trade you any day, lets see how long YOU last on the street of St Louis..... because with words like that about your other first responders you wont have much backup when you need it.

Listern, lay off him. Every cop, fireman, and medic thinks there command is the best and the buisest and that they've had the toughest assignments. You signed up for it. Why don't you talk about all of the times you were sitting in your RMP not working, or on meal, or shooting the bull with the rest of the guys on your tour?

[N Harmon]

A CAP cadet gets booted from school under identical circumstances-How is it handled within the Squadron? Ignored? Mocked" 2B? Flogging or keelhauling?

Without good evidence of the violation of CAP core values, we maintain a presumption of innocence until proven guilty. We also defer to parents as to whether their son/daughter should continue to participate in CAP. As long as the cadet maintains good discipline at the squadron and is not a threat to any other cadets, we see no reason to take the school's internal actions as binding on us any more than we would expect schools to suspend or expel students as a result of disciplinary actions in CAP.

That said, the circumstances of this particular case are only what we see in the media account. Were any of the students to whom this individual was spitting airsoft pellets also JROTC cadets? Because the CAP cadet protection policy applies to cadet on cadet behavior outside of CAP, and such a circumstance would require greater scrutiny.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The blacks, of course, whined, and the school, of course, caved.  They outlawed the display of the Stars and Bars and the playing of "Dixie."

Yeah, gotta watch up for those darned uppity blacks. Who would of guessed that attending a school who sported a symbol of four hundred years of cultural oppression would rile them up?

Statements like that should make every good American sick to their stomachs.

Or, they could use the opportunity to educate everyone about the effort made to free the black slaves, and the sacrifices of Americans over four bloody years to bring the promise of freedom to them.  But then, THAT would be actual education, and not politically-correct mind-mumbing brainwashing.

[Pylon]

And this is completely out of hand.  Lock.