Wearing you beret from NBB outside of NBB?

[Майор Хаткевич]

It is in like new condition?

[Eclipse]

Guns still in shrink wrap, but reverse is burned out...

[LGM30GMCC]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_forces_in_Afghanistan

Forgive me if I don't think it's necessarily fair to be mocking a country that entered a war and has stuck it out the whole time because WE were attacked. Even when our own government has sneered at the French for not supporting us for our reasons to attack Iraq. While they may not have a very large force, over half their expenditures for foreign operations go to fighting in Afghanistan primarily on our behalf.

While some may think it may be 'funny' or viewed as acceptable to make fun of our ally I think it is inappropriate. Especially around cadets that don't know any better and allow that to become part of their world view. As to WW2 I would say the French fought hard but at the time were out-thought, out-maneuvered, and out-gunned. Just like everyone else the Nazi's steam rolled in the early part of the war. Dunkirk was a disaster for the Brits, but imagine how much harder it was for the French forces that had to get in ships and leave their homeland behind to an aggressive enemy.

So the government surrendered rather than watch their whole country be destroyed by an inevitable defeat, in some ways it likely saved many French civilian lives, no matter how bitter a pill it was to swallow. Yes there were those who collaborated with the Nazi's but there were also Americans who did so. Or perhaps we make fun of them for their defeat in Vietnam? I don't seem to recall, in the end, us necessarily doing much better.

Sorry, end rant. It's an attitude that just pisses me off. I can't say I necessarily blame the French for wanting their own nuclear weapons, not under control of NATO. There may be something to their thought that the United States wouldn't come to their aid if we didn't feel we were directly threatened some how.

[ProdigalJim]

^^^  +1

Well said.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^^  +1

Well said.

And any country that can come up with birds like these is worthy of respect...


Dassault Mirage F1


Dassault Mirage 2000


Dassault Mirage III
(RAAF example...they chose it over our F-104 Starfighter and the English Electric Lightning, the first time they elected to not "go British" with a major aircraft purchase)


Dassault Mirage IV (nuclear carrier)


Strip the Mirage III down to basics, call it the Mirage 5 and make more money selling to overseas clients than we did with the F-5...


Dassault Rafale, made in both air force and naval versions...and can go head-to-head with almost anything flying today.

However, I've never actually seen the French AF wearing berets...at least not in dress uniform.

[Майор Хаткевич]

How long did they last against Germany again!?

[Eclipse]

How long did they last against Germany again!?

OK, even >I< know when to quit.

[Майор Хаткевич]

How long did they last against Germany again!?

OK, even >I< know when to quit.

Just saying. I have no disrespect for France or French people. I found "Freedom Fries" to be extremely silly. But that said, they get heartburn for the wars they HAVE lost, but especially the BIG ONE.

[Equinox]

It's funny how many cadets go to this activity just so they can wear the beret.

[JeffDG]

How long did they last against Germany again!?

OK, even >I< know when to quit.

Just saying. I have no disrespect for France or French people. I found "Freedom Fries" to be extremely silly. But that said, they get heartburn for the wars they HAVE lost, but especially the BIG ONE.

They spent a helluva lot more time in WWI than the US did.  Also, let's not forget that they participated in things like the "Hundred Years' War"

That said, the WW2 experience is more of a historical abberation than a pattern.

[NCRblues]

I guess we will have to disagree than.

I feel the French took the easy way out in the war. I want no part of a government, that when faced with the complete domination of there way of life, simply puts up the white flag. Nor do I believe anyone should accept the French governments surrender and compliance in the Nazi program as ok in any way.

Winston Churchill faced the same options as the French did. Surrender and save a few thousand battlefield lives, or fight on and save tens of thousands from the Nazi slaughter in the death camps and roving death squads.

Churchill's speech of 28 May 1940 said "I have only to add that nothing which may happen in this battle can in any way relieve us of our duty to defend the world cause to which we have vowed ourselves"

Churchill's ever famous speech on 4 June 1940 to the House of Commons laid out the simple plan that surrender CAN NEVER be an option to tyrants.

Churchill said "Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old."

This is the attitude that needs to be propagated to our young people, the next generation that will have no first hand knowledge of the war. This generation in the schools now will never remember speaking to a ww2 vet. They will hear no firsthand stories. So it is imperative that we condone the French surrender as the easy way out, and make Great Britains defiance a shining example of what must be done when liberty and freedom are threatened by pure evil.

[Luis R. Ramos]

And although they also lost French Indochina, they showed a lot of courage in that battle. I read a book about Dien Bien Phu, where it states they would send paratrooper battalions night after night, only to lose them in a day or two. Not because they could not fight, but because they were outfought in bad terrain. In other words, they had two things against them. More of the enemy than they could bring and also that they were defending a valley where the enemy was in the hills.

I do not have much respect for what the French achieved during WWII. But they are fighters.

Flyers

[Майор Хаткевич]

They spent a helluva lot more time in WWI than the US did.  Also, let's not forget that they participated in things like the "Hundred Years' War"

That said, the WW2 experience is more of a historical abberation than a pattern.

My people also spent a lot of time in that war. Sometimes charging  German lines with few weapons. Surrender was not an option.

[That Anonymous Guy]

I going for the airshow.

Going for the airshow?

This is one of the largest misconceptions about NBB and it trips my trigger every time I see it.

This NCSA is a WORKING NCSA. It's a bonus that the airshow is going on, but CAP is up there to work. On airshow days, the flights work a 12 hour shift of Emergency Services, Warbird Security, flight line marshalling, KP, CQ and any other random tasking the EAA/FAA/DOD/AF wants CAP to do.

NBB is not a free-for-all at the EAA Airventure, its working (and hard long days at that) end rant...

I know. I oversimplified it. I want to work the radios. I want to marshal the aircraft. I want to find the ELTs and interact with the public.

[Fubar]

It's funny how many cadets go to this activity just so they can wear the beret.

Less funny is the number of seniors that do the exact same thing.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think the Free French (or the Fighting French, as they preferred to be called) are being ignored.

They manned several RAF squadrons, like 340 "Lorraine" Squadron:



Some of them flew with Regiment Normandie-Niemen, as part of the Soviet Air Force:



They weren't all Vichy turncoats.  Let us not forget that there were Nazi sympathisers/collaborators in almost every Allied country.  Vidkun Quisling, Sir Oswald Moseley, Britisches Freikorps, anyone?

NCRBlues: I am a huge admirer of Sir Winston Churchill and have read extensively about him.  He was not nearly as dismissive of France after their defeat as you are.  He actively encouraged Frenchmen to fight on with UK forces, which a great many did.

In any case, there is no reason to denigrate a nation and it's fighting forces just to prove a "point" as to why you don't like their headgear.

[JeffDG]

Winston Churchill faced the same options as the French did. Surrender and save a few thousand battlefield lives, or fight on and save tens of thousands from the Nazi slaughter in the death camps and roving death squads.

Churchill also had the English Channel between he and the German Army, so that was something he had going for him.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Churchill...but to equate the positions of the French and the UK at that point in time is just disingenuous.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Churchill...but to equate the positions of the French and the UK at that point in time is just disingenuous.

Quite so.

Britain also had a lot more colonies to draw on for manpower, not to mention autonomous Dominions (Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and others) who supplied entire units to fight under British oversight and many, many more individuals who joined the RAF, RN and British Army.

[lordmonar]

How long did they last against Germany again!?

OK, even >I< know when to quit.

Which time?  IIRC Nepolian kicked some major butt until the rest of the world got involved.
As for WWI.....France held out four three year before the U.S. bailed out the UK and France.
In WWII because the U.S. failed to follow through with backing the Legue of Nations we allowed Hitler to build a huge illegal army and let him take France.  France was out classed, out manuvered and with out a mobile enough army....so they surrendered....sort of.

Since then....I guess you can say that France has lost a lot of wars....let's see SE Asia....I seem to think we lost that one too.

Don't frack with me....I'm a history major!

[JeffDG]

How long did they last against Germany again!?

OK, even >I< know when to quit.

Which time?  IIRC Nepolian kicked some major butt until the rest of the world got involved.
As for WWI.....France held out four three year before the U.S. bailed out the UK and France.

WWI was on the downslide for Germany well before the US got involved.  It may have taken another year or so, but the US didn't "bail out" the UK and France, it could well be argued they jumped in to grab some glory once an outcome was in sight...kind of like the Soviets did with Japan in WW2.