CAP senior member NCOs are not "Officers" but cadet officers are

[RiverAux]

While perusing 39 I noticed this in the definitions section:

a. Officer: As used in this publication, includes senior member grades flight officer through major general and cadet grades second lieutenant through colonel.
b. Airman: Unless otherwise specified, includes all other uniformed members both senior and cadet.

I find it interesting that while we are being encouraged to use "Officers" as a synonym for the "Senior Member", that the uniform regulation includes cadets in that definition but specifically excludes those few CAP senior members with NCO ranks. 

[Hammer]

While perusing 39 I noticed this in the definitions section:

a. Officer: As used in this publication, includes senior member grades flight officer through major general and cadet grades second lieutenant through colonel.
b. Airman: Unless otherwise specified, includes all other uniformed members both senior and cadet.

I find it interesting that while we are being encouraged to use "Officers" as a synonym for the "Senior Member", that the uniform regulation includes cadets in that definition but specifically excludes those few CAP senior members with NCO ranks. 

When you find something that makes sense in CAP,, let me know 

[MIKE]

I thought we beat this to death already, but maybe I'm thinking of another forum.

Personally, I do not care for the use of the term officer as has been suggested.  I can understand where it appears to be coming from though, based on the CAP/CC's background as a LEO.

[ELTHunter]

I thought we beat this to death already, but maybe I'm thinking of another forum.

Personally, I do not care for the use of the term officer as has been suggested.  I can understand where it appears to be coming from though, based on the CAP/CC's background as a LEO.

It's a lot better than Senior Member, which really does conjure up images of old gray haired guys sitting around hanger flying.

[MIKE]

I like Auxiliarist, but nobody asked me. 

[A.Member]

I like Auxiliarist, but nobody asked me. 

I think that's a better choice as well.  But like you, the board doesn't call me for opinions - probably rightfully so.    

[ELTHunter]

While perusing 39 I noticed this in the definitions section:

a. Officer: As used in this publication, includes senior member grades flight officer through major general and cadet grades second lieutenant through colonel.
b. Airman: Unless otherwise specified, includes all other uniformed members both senior and cadet.

I find it interesting that while we are being encouraged to use "Officers" as a synonym for the "Senior Member", that the uniform regulation includes cadets in that definition but specifically excludes those few CAP senior members with NCO ranks. 

In looking at 39-1 in regards to another thread, it occurred to me that defining the term Officer in this way was only intended as it applied to the uniform manual where it describes and depicts the various uniforms.  I don't believe it was attempting to make that definition the hard and fast rule applying everywhere.

[RiverAux]

ELT, I was making the same assumption you are, but as far as I know off the top of my head, there aren't a whole lot of places that officially define Officer and Airman.  I'm sort of stickler for consistency between regulations so these sorts of things catch my attention. 

[ELTHunter]

I'm sort of stickler for consistency between regulations so these sorts of things catch my attention. 

I bet CAP drives you over the edge, huh

[shorning]

I'm sort of stickler for consistency between regulations so these sorts of things catch my attention. 

That's all well and good, but pay attention to dates.  If the dates don't match, or at least close, then differences in terminology doesn't mean much.  Do you really expect NHQ to instantly update all materials (regs, manuals, forms, fliers, etc.) just because they changed "happy" to "glad"?  Why not worry about something important?

[ELTHunter]

I've always thought it wasn't quite right to call Cadet Sargents NCO's also, because no CAP members are commissioned whether they are Senior Member Officers or Cadet Officers.

[RiverAux]

That's all well and good, but pay attention to dates.  If the dates don't match, or at least close, then differences in terminology doesn't mean much.  Do you really expect NHQ to instantly update all materials (regs, manuals, forms, fliers, etc.) just because they changed "happy" to "glad"? 

No, I don't expect that.

Why not worry about something important?

Ohh, you shouldn't have said that....you're on my list.....I'll be waiting for the next time you start a topic about something "not important"..... Maybe I don't need bother waiting, you've only ever started 7 topics and do most of your posting in the "unimportant" uniform board....  

[ZigZag911]

Isn't "auxiliarist" already 'taken' by Coast Guard Aux??

Why deliberately confuse the two organizations?

Granted we don't have commissions, but we do have appointments --thus CAP officers, CAP NCOs, CAP cadet officers, CAP cadet NCOs.

[shorning]

Maybe I don't need bother waiting, you've only ever started 7 topics and do most of your posting in the "unimportant" uniform board.... 

Glad you're keeping track.   I guess you really don't have anything better to do.  Actually, I'm sure you understood point I was making, but are just choosing to be difficult.  If that's what floats your boat...

[MIKE]

Isn't "auxiliarist" already 'taken' by Coast Guard Aux??

Yep, and I happen to be one.

Why deliberately confuse the two organizations?

Because they are both auxiliaries... One more than the other, but still.  We can dream can't we?

Oh no! I accidentally wore my trousers for trops with my service uniform... Ahhhh! 

[Hammer]

I've always thought it wasn't quite right to call Cadet Sargents NCO's also, because no CAP members are commissioned whether they are Senior Member Officers or Cadet Officers.

That's not necessaraly true.  There's an Active Duty Air Force Lt Col in my Squadron, who is Comissioned.  True, not all CAP SM's are, just the former, current, and retired Military.  FWIW, I hear that CAP SM NCO's out-rank CAP SM Officers, because their rank is Federal. But that's just what I was told by someone who's both a CAP and AF Officer.

[Al Sayre]

IF that's the case it could get awful confusing, since there are many CAP SM Officers who are retired/AD NCO's.  I can think of about 20 on this board off the top of my head...

Besides, in CAP positional authority trumps grade.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Since it is in 39-1, I'm sure the distinction is only for uniforms.  So they don't have to keep saying:  "A 1/2 blue sleeve braid will be worn by CAP senior member officers, except those officers considered non-commissioned officers, even though the people that we give rank that would otherwise reflect commissioned officer status, in fact, do not actually have commissions, so in that sense everyone is a non-commissioned officer, except those people in CAP who actually hold a commission from some other place and the part about the blue sleeve braid also applies to flight officers, who also are not commissioned, but not considered by us to be non-commissioned officers."   

[MIKE]

... but if we had commissions as Auxiliary Officers ...

Nevermind...

[Psicorp]

I think a lot of people have missed the point on this.  My opinion (given free of charge) is that there is a world of difference between a Military commission and a CAP commission.  As an entirely seperate organization, CAP can commission (appoint) whomever it to whatever it wants...it means nothing outside the confines of CAP.  An active or retired military officer can be given equal grade within CAP, but it isn't required.  We could say that an Active Duty four star General starts off as a Senior Member without grade (Officer Candidate) like everyone else, since this is an entirely different (and civilian) organization.

Given that we are also a corporation, corporations can, and often do, have officers.  These are usually positions, we just happen to have a grade structure to go with them, and that grade structure is based on our parent organization, the Air Force.   If someone really wanted to be a stickler about it, we could change the designations slightly and call CAP Officers "Appointed Officers" and NCOs, "Non-Appointed Officers" (NAOs).    

[ELTHunter]

If someone really wanted to be a stickler about it, we could change the designations slightly and call CAP Officers "Appointed Officers" and NCOs, "Non-Appointed Officers" (NAOs).   

Interesting thought.

[RogueLeader]

Pass it Chain of Command, and see what happens.  It'll be interesting I'm sure.

[Psicorp]

Pass it Chain of Command, and see what happens.  It'll be interesting I'm sure.

As I said, it doesn't really matter.  My grade could be "Civilian Airman First Class" and it would make no difference in how I do my job or why I do my job.   

[DeputyDog]

I've always thought it wasn't quite right to call Cadet Sargents NCO's also, because no CAP members are commissioned whether they are Senior Member Officers or Cadet Officers.

There's an Active Duty Air Force Lt Col in my Squadron, who is Comissioned.

Who is commissioned as an Air Force officer, not as a CAP officer. CAP regulations allow him to be "appointed" as a CAP Lieutenant Colonel because he or she was commissioned as a Lieutenant Colonel in the Air Force.

FWIW, I hear that CAP SM NCO's out-rank CAP SM Officers, because their rank is Federal. But that's just what I was told by someone who's both a CAP and AF Officer.

So how does it work when a National Guard NCO who is not on federal status joins CAP and is appointed as a CAP NCO? "Federal rank" has no bearing on the CAP since we are not subject to the UCMJ. Military officers do not have command jurisdiction over CAP personnel. Like someone else said, CAP is based on positional authority rather than grade authority.

So technically...a non-prior service First Lieutenant who is a squadron commander will "out-rank" an active duty Lieutenant Colonel who is in the CAP as a Lieutenant Colonel and is in that squadron.

[DeputyDog]

If someone really wanted to be a stickler about it, we could change the designations slightly and call CAP Officers "Appointed Officers" and NCOs, "Non-Appointed Officers" (NAOs).    

According to CAPR 35-5....CAP NCOs are "Appointed Officers" as well. There is no real authoritative distinction between a CAP Staff Sergeant and a CAP Second Lieutenant. They are both "Appointed Officers". The only difference that I have found in the regulations is that one of them gets saluted first.

There is no need to change the designation...as the term Non-commissioned Officer means that they are not comissioned. 

[Psicorp]

So technically...a non-prior service First Lieutenant who is a squadron commander will "out-rank" an active duty Lieutenant Colonel who is in the CAP as a Lieutenant Colonel and is in that squadron.

That's the difference between "grade" and "rank".

[MIKE]

Depends... People say that, but it don't jive with whats in Leadership 2000: And Beyond... And that's the only place I've seen it defined officially. 

[Major_Chuck]

Hmmm....

Just another reason why we should adopt a Flight Officer Grade for all adult (don't use the term ....senior old goat member) based upon what level of the Adult training program you fall in.  FO1, FO2, FO3, FO4,or FO5.

Another option would be Brevet Lieutenant Colonel, Brevet Major, Brevet Captain...

[DeputyDog]

Hmmm....

Just another reason why we should adopt a Flight Officer Grade for all adult (don't use the term ....senior old goat member) based upon what level of the Adult training program you fall in.  FO1, FO2, FO3, FO4,or FO5.

Another option would be Brevet Lieutenant Colonel, Brevet Major, Brevet Captain...

Would that change anything other than what they are called? How would the Air Force react to someone identifying themselves as "Brevet Captain Smith from the CAP" when conducting business with them? I remember the double-takes I got when I was a Senior Flight Officer attending a CLC on an Air Force base.

[Hammer]

I've always thought it wasn't quite right to call Cadet Sargents NCO's also, because no CAP members are commissioned whether they are Senior Member Officers or Cadet Officers.

There's an Active Duty Air Force Lt Col in my Squadron, who is Comissioned.

Who is commissioned as an Air Force officer, not as a CAP officer. CAP regulations allow him to be "appointed" as a CAP Lieutenant Colonel because he or she was commissioned as a Lieutenant Colonel in the Air Force.

Actually, Commissioned as a Second Lieutenant, only some Doctors and Lawyers get Commissioned as a Lieutenant Colone.

So how does it work when a National Guard NCO who is not on federal status joins CAP and is appointed as a CAP NCO? "Federal rank" has no bearing on the CAP since we are not subject to the UCMJ. Military officers do not have command jurisdiction over CAP personnel. Like someone else said, CAP is based on positional authority rather than grade authority.

National Guard rank carrries the same weight as Reserve rank, because the Guard is a Reserve Component.

So technically...a non-prior service First Lieutenant who is a squadron commander will "out-rank" an active duty Lieutenant Colonel who is in the CAP as a Lieutenant Colonel and is in that squadron.

Kinda, sorta, not really.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Flight Officer status shouldn't, but does create raised eyebrows in the USAF.  The USAF and the Army Air Corps both used "Flight Officer" for the same reason we do... You have to be 21 to be a 2nd Lt. by federal law.  Even though not really commissioned, we defer to the public law in our officer appointments to avoid confusion.

[JohnKachenmeister]

And also to avoid people laughing when one of our lieutenants buys razor blades!

[lordmonar]

So technically...a non-prior service First Lieutenant who is a squadron commander will "out-rank" an active duty Lieutenant Colonel who is in the CAP as a Lieutenant Colonel and is in that squadron.

Kinda, sorta, not really.

Not kinda, sorta...100% correct, positional authority always out ranks pay grade.

When the President flies on Air Force One, the Col PIC is the ranking officer on that plane and everyone must follow his orders.

Particularly in CAP the squadron command out ranks everyone in his squadron.  Just as an IC is the top dog at a mission base, irregardless of their actual grade.

[DeputyDog]

Actually, Commissioned as a Second Lieutenant, only some Doctors and Lawyers get Commissioned as a Lieutenant Colone.

Sorry about that. I should have said "holds or held" a commission as a Lieutenant Colonel.

National Guard rank carrries the same weight as Reserve rank, because the Guard is a Reserve Component.

You missed my point on that. I was trying to get across that the term "Federal Rank" has no bearing on "ranking" in the CAP. However, not all National Guardsmen have federal recognition for their rank. Sometimes there is a delay between when the state promotes you, and when you get federal recognition for that grade.

The interesting thing is that CAPR 35-5 does not provide for that situation. We can promote any person to the CAP NCO grade of Master Sergeant as long as they have something official (ID card, orders, etc.) that says they are a Master Sergeant or its equivalent. If their federal recognition is only that of a Technical Sergeant, how is anyone in CAP going to know the difference? So is that CAP Master Sergeant's "rank" federal? It doesn't matter. CAP doesn't go off that. In order for "federal rank" to matter in the CAP, some of the laws that govern our relationship with the military need to be changed.

Kinda, sorta, not really.

Someone else answered this, but I'll expand. What would happen if a non-prior service Major was a Squadron Commander, and that prior-service Lieutenant Colonel (who is in the Major's squadron) was attempting to give him orders? "Kinda, sorta, not really" would be nowhere in sight...and neither would that Lieutenant Colonel if he or she tried pulling that on me.

I recently had a senior member (officer) try and do that me. He had a hard time grasping the concept of positional authority versus grade authority. I provided a way for him to see the light.

[DeputyDog]

You have to be 21 to be a 2nd Lt. by federal law.

Where do you get that from? You can go through Army OCS at age 18. On completion do they just sit around until they turn 21?

I haven't found any federal laws that restrict the grade of second lieutenant to those who are age 21 or above. In fact, I found this under Title 10, Section 2106 in reference to Senior R.O.T.C.: (a) Upon satisfactorily completing the academic and military
requirements of the program of advanced training, a member of the
program who was selected for advanced training under section 2104 of
this title may be appointed as a regular or reserve officer in the
appropriate armed force in the grade of second lieutenant or ensign,
even though he is under 21 years of age.

[RiverAux]

There must have been a reason that they felt it necessary to tack on that last phrase about them being under the age of 21.  I have a hard time believing they would do that unless there was some other requirement limiting it to 21 or above. 

[DeputyDog]

There must have been a reason that they felt it necessary to tack on that last phrase about them being under the age of 21.  I have a hard time believing they would do that unless there was some other requirement limiting it to 21 or above. 

It could be common pratice or departmental policy to say age 21 for second lieutenant. I looked through Title 10 and could not find anything actually restricting it to 21 year olds or above.

[ELTHunter]

Didn't this horse just get beat to death on another thread?

[DeputyDog]

Didn't this horse just get beat to death on another thread?

Which thread? I remember it being talked about on the Portal with nothing definitive being concluded, but not here. Besides, the federal law issue wasn't discussed in trying to find a source.

[JohnKachenmeister]

You have to be 21 to be a 2nd Lt. by federal law.

Where do you get that from? You can go through Army OCS at age 18. On completion do they just sit around until they turn 21?

I haven't found any federal laws that restrict the grade of second lieutenant to those who are age 21 or above. In fact, I found this under Title 10, Section 2106 in reference to Senior R.O.T.C.: (a) Upon satisfactorily completing the academic and military
requirements of the program of advanced training, a member of the
program who was selected for advanced training under section 2104 of
this title may be appointed as a regular or reserve officer in the
appropriate armed force in the grade of second lieutenant or ensign,
even though he is under 21 years of age.

Maybe my information is as dated as my wardrobe.  When I went through Army OCS, we had a 20-year old candidate who was accepted because our graduation date was after her 21st birthday.  When some situation (Can't recall anymore what it was) forced a change to our graduation date by a week or so, the staff had to get authorization from the Dept. of the Army to "Frock" her as a 2LT on graduation, and her date of rank was her birthday, a week or so after everybody else in the class.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The same was true of my Dad.  He qualified as a bombardier at 19, and was appointed a Flight Officer until he was 21.  He made 2LT just as the war was ending.  (That would have been 1945, for those who were absent that day from school.)

[lordmonar]

The interesting thing is that CAPR 35-5 does not provide for that situation. We can promote any person to the CAP NCO grade of Master Sergeant as long as they have something official (ID card, orders, etc.) that says they are a Master Sergeant or its equivalent. If their federal recognition is only that of a Technical Sergeant, how is anyone in CAP going to know the difference? So is that CAP Master Sergeant's "rank" federal? It doesn't matter. CAP doesn't go off that. In order for "federal rank" to matter in the CAP, some of the laws that govern our relationship with the military need to be changed.

I don't think you understand the CAP NCO ranks.  What ever the rank you had when you retired...that is the NCO rank you have in CAP.  You cannot promote an active duty TSgt to CAP MSgt.

[DNall]

For the love of God. I guess I can argue semantics for just a second.

The word commissioned, has no magical meaning. Any organization can commission you to whatever the hell grade they want. If they wanted to send you a certificate when you promote to 2Lt signed personally by THE President of the United States with exactly the same wording as an AF officer commission except that it said "XYZ is commissioned Second Lieutenant, Civil Air Patrol," that would have ZERO legal force. It would NOT give you power over military personnel. That authority is spelled out in 10USC. Calling people commissioned or actually following the formality of issuing them a commission doesn't change anything whatsoever in any way shape or form. It just makes people feel warm & fuzzy. The word merely means you've been empowered by the signed to hold & execute the powers of the office to which you've been appointed. Remind me again, what are the legal powers of a CAP officer? Cause last time I looked over 10USC I don't remember seeing any.

Far as NCOs, obviously they can promote as they promote within the military. Otherwise you're talking about creating a new (going back to an old) system, which I can see some strong points for doing, but that's another conversation.

AGE: there is no provision CURRENTLY to restrict commissioning of a military officer all the way down to 17. The min age to enter Army OCS is 19 & it's three months long. I'll provide the link again if you want it, but it's easy to find. Now in reality, I can't see any but the rarest of circumstances where a review board would accept anyone under 21 to OCS. The closest I can think of is Warrant Officer Flight Trainign, where they do accept 18yo HS grads who are then promoted to CWO2 w/a commission & swear an oath of command prior to 21.

[DeputyDog]

The interesting thing is that CAPR 35-5 does not provide for that situation. We can promote any person to the CAP NCO grade of Master Sergeant as long as they have something official (ID card, orders, etc.) that says they are a Master Sergeant or its equivalent. If their federal recognition is only that of a Technical Sergeant, how is anyone in CAP going to know the difference? So is that CAP Master Sergeant's "rank" federal? It doesn't matter. CAP doesn't go off that. In order for "federal rank" to matter in the CAP, some of the laws that govern our relationship with the military need to be changed.

I don't think you understand the CAP NCO ranks. What ever the rank you had when you retired...that is the NCO rank you have in CAP.  You cannot promote an active duty TSgt to CAP MSgt.

I do understand the CAP NCO ranks. You missed what I was talking about. I wasn't talking about promoting an active duty Technical Sergeant to a CAP Master Sergeant. I was trying to show that the term "federal rank" doesn't mean anything in relation to the CAP grades.

My example was using an Air National Guard Technical Sergeant (not an active duty Air Force Technical Sergeant) who was promoted to Master Sergeant by his or her state.

[DeputyDog]

For the love of God. I guess I can argue semantics for just a second.

The word commissioned, has no magical meaning.

But it has a legal meaning. If you will notice, CAPR 35-5 uses the term "appointed or appointment" rather than commissioned or commission when talking about the grades of second lieutenant through major general. Think that implies something?

Calling people commissioned or actually following the formality of issuing them a commission doesn't change anything whatsoever in any way shape or form. It just makes people feel warm & fuzzy.

But should you call someone "commissioned" when they are not?

The word merely means you've been empowered by the signed to hold & execute the powers of the office to which you've been appointed.

Actually, it doesn't:
a formal written warrant granting the power to perform various acts or duties, or a certificate conferring military rank and authority (quoted from a dictionary).

Sounds like alot more than "feeling warm and fuzzy" to me.

AGE: The min age to enter Army OCS is 19...

A quick review of this regulation: https://www.infantry.army.mil/ocs/content/AR350-51.pdf will show the minimum age is 18.

[lordmonar]

For the love of God. I guess I can argue semantics for just a second.

The word commissioned, has no magical meaning.

But it has a legal meaning. If you will notice, CAPR 35-5 uses the term "appointed or appointment" rather than commissioned or commission when talking about the grades of second lieutenant through major general. Think that implies something?

Calling people commissioned or actually following the formality of issuing them a commission doesn't change anything whatsoever in any way shape or form. It just makes people feel warm & fuzzy.

But should you call someone "commissioned" when they are not?

The word merely means you've been empowered by the signed to hold & execute the powers of the office to which you've been appointed.

Actually, it doesn't:
a formal written warrant granting the power to perform various acts or duties, or a certificate conferring military rank and authority (quoted from a dictionary).

Sounds like alot more than "feeling warm and fuzzy" to me.

AGE: The min age to enter Army OCS is 19...

A quick review of this regulation: https://www.infantry.army.mil/ocs/content/AR350-51.pdf will show the minimum age is 18.

I think what the problem here is....some people think that the federal government has a monopoly on the word "commission".

Sorry...that is not so.  A state ANG officer my have a federal commission or just a state commission.  State Police officers are sometimes commissioned.  Lawyers are often commissioned.  Real estate agents are commissioned.

Commission

NOUN:
1.
- The act of granting certain powers or the authority to carry out a particular task or duty.
- The authority so granted.
- The matter or task so authorized: Investigation of fraud was their commission.
- A document conferring such authorization.

2.
- A group of people officially authorized to perform certain duties or functions: The Federal Trade Commission investigates false advertising.
- often Commission A ruling council within the Mafia that adjudicates family disputes and regulates family activities.
- The act of committing or perpetrating: the commission of a crime.
- A fee or percentage allowed to a sales representative or an agent for services rendered.

3.
- An official document issued by a government, conferring on the recipient the rank of a commissioned officer in the armed forces.
- The rank and powers so conferred.

A commissioned officer of the United States Military has a different commission than a commissioned officer in the Arkansas National Guard.  Just as a commissioned officer in the North Pulaski Volunteer Fire Department or even the Civil Air Patrol is different.  A commission in one does not impart authority in anything else.

Ergo...it makes not difference to argue about semantics in this case.  What needs to be argued is the source of the commission and what powers that commission imparts.

[DNall]

Actually, it doesn't:
a formal written warrant granting the power to perform various acts or duties, or a certificate conferring military rank and authority (quoted from a dictionary).

Sounds like alot more than "feeling warm and fuzzy" to me.

That's a narrow definition, but fine I'll use it. A formal written warrant appointing you to the office of "2Lt, CAP" & empowering you with all rights and priveldges of the same. See how that does not make you a military officer with any power over anyone. The meaning here is the legal authority of the office you're being appointed to, not the word commission or appoint. A military officer's comission doesn't by itself mean anything either, only when paired with legal authorities assigned in title 10 to the office does it have any legal meaning. If the national commander, Secretary of the AF, President of the US, or whomever else you wish were to sign a document in every way identacle to a military commission but with the words US Air Force replaced by Civil Air Patrol, it would have no legal meaning whatsoever, because it is not in fact a military commission regardless of how exactly the same it looks.

The terms commission & appoint in this case are actually rather interchangable. When a doctor joins the Air Force, they are directly appointed to the grade of captain, that doesn't mean they don't have a commission like every other officer, they do. In fact they are commissioned as an officer & appointed to an office.

You can start a club in your basement & elect a President, but that doesn't make them the President of the US just cause they were elected to an office called "President."

AGE: The min age to enter Army OCS is 19...

A quick review of this regulation: https://www.infantry.army.mil/ocs/content/AR350-51.pdf will show the minimum age is 18.

Just going by the website:
"To attend Officer Candidate School, you must be a U.S. Citizen and a college graduate, at least 19 years old and not have passed your 29th birthday at the time of selection (age waivers may be considered)."
http://www.goarmy.com/ocs/applications_eligibility.jsp

[DNall]

Ergo...it makes not difference to argue about semantics in this case.  What needs to be argued is the source of the commission and what powers that commission imparts.

Off topic a bit, but the previous seemed pretty done. I'm thinking issued by the Nat CC, and worded similiarly, not the exact same, but similiar to an AF comission. Legally all it's "commissioning" you to do is wer the grade stated on the document. Actually, I don't know if I'd even specifiy grade in it, cause I don't want the expense of making new ones when people get promoted. Just one that authorizes you to serve as a a duly appointed officer in CAP. A little pomp & circumstance really can make people take their roles more seriously if done right. I know a lot of people that earn 2Lt or Observer wings, and anti-climatic nature of it is a real turn off.

[JohnKachenmeister]

DNall:

In the RealMilitary, you are commissioned to your initial rank, in my case, second lieutenant.  After that you are promoted on orders, and no new commission certificate is awarded.

The National Guard, however, dual-commissions officers.  The Governor commissions you, and then you are commissioned by a Federal Recognition Board.  When I was in the Guard, I got a new commission certificate from the Governor every time I was promoted.  I still have only my original commission to second lieutenant from the President.

So I guess you can do it either way.

I agree that ceremony and official-looking certificates are important.  I use the analogy of a marriage.  A couple can live together, have sex, kids, bills, joint property, and all that, but...

There is just something about making a solemn committment to each other in the presence of God and all your friends and family that makes marriage something more than the sum of all of the above.

That's WHY we should have a ceremony to "Commission" our officers, even if the commission has very little legal meaning.  For a volunteer to stand up before his family and friends and pledge his service to the United States, and then be awarded a badge of rank as an officer and gentleman would establish an emotional bond to the organization that just MIGHT reduce our attrition.

[davedove]

That's WHY we should have a ceremony to "Commission" our officers, even if the commission has very little legal meaning.  For a volunteer to stand up before his family and friends and pledge his service to the United States, and then be awarded a badge of rank as an officer and gentleman would establish an emotional bond to the organization that just MIGHT reduce our attrition.

I personally think some sort of ceremony, even an informal one, should be done for all grade advances, as well as any awards givien.  Many will probably say they don't want to go through the hassle, or that it doesn't really mean anything, but there is a certain pride in being recognized for an accomplishment in front of your peers.

[mikeylikey]

Actually, it doesn't:
a formal written warrant granting the power to perform various acts or duties, or a certificate conferring military rank and authority (quoted from a dictionary).

Sounds like alot more than "feeling warm and fuzzy" to me.

That's a narrow definition, but fine I'll use it. A formal written warrant appointing you to the office of "2Lt, CAP" & empowering you with all rights and privileges of the same. See how that does not make you a military officer with any power over anyone. The meaning here is the legal authority of the office you're being appointed to, not the word commission or appoint. A military officer's commission doesn't by itself mean anything either, only when paired with legal authorities assigned in title 10 to the office does it have any legal meaning. If the national commander, Secretary of the AF, President of the US, or whomever else you wish were to sign a document in every way identical to a military commission but with the words US Air Force replaced by Civil Air Patrol, it would have no legal meaning whatsoever, because it is not in fact a military commission regardless of how exactly the same it looks.

The terms commission & appoint in this case are actually rather interchangeable. When a doctor joins the Air Force, they are directly appointed to the grade of captain, that doesn't mean they don't have a commission like every other officer, they do. In fact they are commissioned as an officer & appointed to an office.

You can start a club in your basement & elect a President, but that doesn't make them the President of the US just cause they were elected to an office called "President."

AGE: The min age to enter Army OCS is 19...

A quick review of this regulation: https://www.infantry.army.mil/ocs/content/AR350-51.pdf will show the minimum age is 18.

Just going by the website:
"To attend Officer Candidate School, you must be a U.S. Citizen and a college graduate, at least 19 years old and not have passed your 29th birthday at the time of selection (age waivers may be considered)."
http://www.goarmy.com/ocs/applications_eligibility.jsp

NO!  Appoint and Commission are NOT interchangeable!  Military Officers are APPOINTED to an office in the US Government.  They then are known as a "Commissioned Officer" because it is a historical throwback.  The Appointment of an officer is what is legal, because they execute an Appointment Oath or Oath of Office.  They are then presented with a Commission.

The Commission they receive is strictly for show.  At one time in our history the Commission was the main source of authority as officers were required to carry it with them at all times to prove who they were.  To get off track alittle, there are many stories of entire battles during the Civil War being held up because the Colonels of different regiments would get together and pull out their commissions to decide whose was oldest or to elimate State Officers who carried commissions from the Governor and not the President.  They would then follow the orders of the presidentially commissioned officer with the oldest commission. 

Anyway, our current system appoints qualified individuals to government office.  They then take on the title of being "commissioned".

[DNall]

NO!  Appoint and Commission are NOT interchangeable!  Military Officers are APPOINTED to an office in the US Government.  They then are known as a "Commissioned Officer" because it is a historical throwback.  The Appointment of an officer is what is legal, because they execute an Appointment Oath or Oath of Office.  They are then presented with a Commission.

The Commission they receive is strictly for show.  At one time in our history the Commission was the main source of authority as officers were required to carry it with them at all times to prove who they were.  To get off track alittle, there are many stories of entire battles during the Civil War being held up because the Colonels of different regiments would get together and pull out their commissions to decide whose was oldest or to elimate State Officers who carried commissions from the Governor and not the President.  They would then follow the orders of the presidentially commissioned officer with the oldest commission. 

Anyway, our current system appoints qualified individuals to government office.  They then take on the title of being "commissioned".

You know I have a degree in military history right, & a minor almost a second major in poly-sci focused on constitutional law.

That's correct though, they are appointed to an office (hired), then commissioned (authorized) to begin serving in that capacity. The word commission is a broad term that JUST means you've been given a task & authorized powers to cmplete it - that's it & nothing more. The highly specific incidence of a military commission document is ONLY a formal document assigning you to a particular grade (office) and granting you the powers & priveldges that go with it. Those are defined seperately in Title 10 (where authority for the UCMJ sits among other things). Just because you have a certificate commissioning you as a CAP officer does not give you UCMJ authority.

It's just a certificate formally granting a person the powers that accompamy the office. There are not many powers to CAP officership. Such a certificate would have zero legal meaning if signed by the POTUS, so obviously there's even less issue if signed by the Nat CC. The term appointment is used correctly in the reg, that does not preclude or negate the issue of a commission or refering to members as commissioned officers.

[JohnKachenmeister]

"...This officer is to obey the orders, from time to time, as may be given by the President of the United States, and the officers appointed over him, according to law and regulation.  And I do strictly charge those officers and other personnel of lesser rank to give such obedience as is due an officer of this grade and position."

This is the source of an officer's authority, a written order from the President directing that he carry out the President's orders and requiring others to obey him.

A "Warrant Officer" has identical wording on his warrant, but the warrant is issued by the Secretary of the service.

[mikeylikey]

In my experiance, I received my commission over 6 years ago, I received a memo from my Commander notifying my that "I am to be directed that the President has appointed me an officer", and that I needed to sign a DA form 71 "Oath of Office", and take my Oath.  At the ceremony I was presented a Commissioning certificate.  My Authority over enlisted personell is strictly derived from the laws of the United States.  Not the piece of paper hanging on my wall.

Oh and DNaLL.....I am so happy you have degree in military histroy, and a minor in Ploy Sci.  That is similar to what a lot of slackers in ROTC do these days  to "breeze" through college.  Not saying you are a slacker, but I hav met my fair share who share tht major and have trouble geting jobs after graduation.  My big question though, was that comment about your education trying to impress someone?  I am sure there are alot more impressive people on this forum.  To beat you too it, I will say that I am not the smartest or most educated person either.  However, as I have gone through the "Commissioning" process I may know what I am talking about.     

[JohnKachenmeister]

DNall isn't a slacker.  I am.  My degree is in Criminal Justice.  I took a lot of Sociology and Psychology pseudo-sciences because there are no right or wrong answers there.

[lordmonar]

In my experience, I received my commission over 6 years ago, I received a memo from my Commander notifying my that "I am to be directed that the President has appointed me an officer", and that I needed to sign a DA form 71 "Oath of Office", and take my Oath.  At the ceremony I was presented a Commissioning certificate.  My Authority over enlisted personnel is strictly derived from the laws of the United States.  Not the piece of paper hanging on my wall.

If you look at the laws of the United States....you will find that you need the paper on the wall before you have any authority over anyone in the military.

Go look it up....all those laws talk about "commissioned officers" or "non commissioned officers" or "warrant officers".   In legal teams that piece of paper is very important.

However, as I have gone through the "Commissioning" process I may know what I am talking about.     

I've been through surgery too....does not make me a doctor!   

[Major_Chuck]

I was ordained a minister by providing an email address to them on-line. Does that make me a qualified to be a minister?  Food for thought when we get into the semantics of "appointed",  "warrant"; "commissioned", etc.

[DNall]

Oh and DNaLL.....I am so happy you have degree in military histroy, and a minor in Ploy Sci.  That is similar to what a lot of slackers in ROTC do these days  to "breeze" through college.  Not saying you are a slacker, but I hav met my fair share who share tht major and have trouble geting jobs after graduation.  My big question though, was that comment about your education trying to impress someone?  I am sure there are alot more impressive people on this forum.  To beat you too it, I will say that I am not the smartest or most educated person either.  However, as I have gone through the "Commissioning" process I may know what I am talking about. 

Let me think, is that the one I sent in the cracker jack box tops for, or the one with the freakin year long thesis that I'm pretty sure took years off my life... I'm not sure if I recall off hand. 

I don't know what your degree is in - lets say it's meteorology. If I were to lecture you about how storm patterns develop, I'd expect your reply to say, 'you know I have a degree in which I spent some time with experts studying this subject." Cause see that would tell me this guy already understands this aspect of the conversation very well & I don't need to go into any more detail. I wouldn't expect you to be offended, cause I didn't know that about you, but I would expect you to save me the trouble of preaching to the choir.

Now if you'd like to discuss the history of it, what I thnk you'll find is the documents were practical because you couldn't verify the information in a central database, and would regularly execute your office outside your chain of command in far away places out of contact with a higher HQ where you alone made the foreign policy of the US on your own judgement & were rewarded or punished depending on how it turned out. I think you'll also find that military commisisons are not particularly special documents. It is merely a formal letter from the govt saying you are appointed to an office & have their permission to use certain powers specified in law to execute it. Commercial shipping companies would (and do today) issue the same sort of document to their ships officers. Private individuals would issue such documents similiar to a power of attorney. Historically speaking, it is just a piece of paper that verifies you're appointed to the office & have been empowered with the authority that comes with it.

Legally AND historically, such a document is no more or less meaningful in CAP than your membership card. In fact it would mean EXACTLY the same thing.

[mikeylikey]

I've been through surgery too....does not make me a doctor!   

If you were the one performing the surgery I sure hope you are a doctor. 

I get what your saying but my point that I tried to get across was that as an Officer I was appointed as an Officer by the President and my Oath of Office was my legal acceptance of that appointment.  My Commission Certificate that hangs on my wall merely states the appointment.  Even though the document says others of lesser rank must obey me, the true laws regulating obedience are found in regulations and the USC, as are all the other things relating to Officers in the Uniformed Services.  The execution of the Oath of Office is the only legal binding and power deriving device that makes a private citizen an Officer.  In the past it may have been that the Commission Certificate itself was the source of power.  Today it is our laws on record and the appointment to US Government Office. 

Commissioned, Non-Commissioned and Warrant are merely generalized titles. 

I am a Commissioned Officer by virtue of being appointed to an Office in the US Government by the President.  I hold appointment at his (or her) pleasure and lawfully execute my duties in accordance with regulations and the laws of the United States.  Others of lesser rank obey my orders because I have been appointed over them. 

I may be way off here, but I will agree now that this is an area where there could be many different views.  This is my view and has been for many years.  Sorry if I am beating a dead horse, but I believe strongly in this line of reasoning. 

Thank you and good night       

[DNall]

That's fine, it doesn't really matter that much. The fact is you can write the same language on a certificate & print it up for CAP members promoting to 2Lt, have it signed by the nat CC, have them swear the standard oath (not sign the same documents - which are by the way the formal acceptance), and have it presented by whomever locally (including govt official if avail).

You can even do this in conjunction with the changes to the officer process I've talked about in PD, which involve an AF rep (state director or their appointee) in the selection & approval process.

There's just nothing whatsoever you can do that makes any of this mean the person is an officer in the armed services of the US, because CAP is ultimately not the real AF. Therefore, all this is allowed & for show, and very meaningful show which can help retention & member quality. Charge a couple extra bucks on new member dues, write a paragraph in regs about how the ceremony should be conducted, done deal. Any objections?

[lordmonar]

I get what your saying but my point that I tried to get across was that as an Officer I was appointed as an Officer by the President and my Oath of Office was my legal acceptance of that appointment.  My Commission Certificate that hangs on my wall merely states the appointment.  Even though the document says others of lesser rank must obey me, the true laws regulating obedience are found in regulations and the USC, as are all the other things relating to Officers in the Uniformed Services.  The execution of the Oath of Office is the only legal binding and power deriving device that makes a private citizen an Officer.  In the past it may have been that the Commission Certificate itself was the source of power.  Today it is our laws on record and the appointment to US Government Office. 

The certificate is your proof that you took that oath.  Much like your birth certificate...you don't need every day....but once you start getting into the legal/bureaucratic world....you got show proof that you raise your right hand and swore that oath.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The laws and the certificate go hand-in-hand.  The source of the officer's authority is the authority that the President grants him, no more, no less.  The commission states that the President "Reposes special trust and confidence in..." the officer, and directs him to obey the President's orders.  It also directs everybody else to obey the officer.  The laws of the US (And they have ALWAYS existed) state that any soldier who disobeys an officer acting under the authority of the President is is deep kim-che, as is an officer who acts contrary to the President's orders.

[Monty]

.................................I took a lot of .............. Psychology pseudo-sciences because there are no right or wrong answers there.

Ouch, baby......very, very OUCH!   

Guess I ain't showing you MY college transcripts.....   

[DrJbdm]

 My honest opinion is that we should be commissioned as Officers thru CAP/USAF as CAP USAF AUX Officers. for what purpose? Well as DNall and others have said it would certainly mean something to the person being Commissioned and it would help in the retention area as well. Besides it adds credibility to us as the USAF AUX if we have a nice Commission hanging on the wall that mirrors as close as possible the USAF commission. Now I think we all know that commission wouldn't mean a darn thing legally or even in the military world, but it would mean a lot for those who earned it. (I think we NEED to earn it, but that's another discussion)

  On my wall hangs a Certificate from the Texas Commission on Law Enforcement licensing me as a Peace Officer as well as a Commission from my agency appointing me as a Police Officer for the State of Texas, that also hangs on my wall, But that isn't what really makes me a Peace Officer or what really gives me any special powers, or even what allows me to carry my gun everywhere I go. That power ultimately comes from the oath I swore to with the Secretary of State and with the Agency who commissioned me as a Peace Officer. But it is a total package. (my credentials I carry in my wallet attests to the fact that I'm a Commissioned Officer)

  As for the person beating up on DNall for listing his education, that's not needed, what's wrong with listing your credentials/education if it's relevant? I hold a Doctoral degree and I don't flaunt it, Hell I don't even call myself Doctor.  But I would bring it up in a conversation if the conversation headed into an area of my expertise...... underwater basket weaving!  DNall has a fine education; he is very well suited to discuss these areas. Maybe those of us who haven't been commissioned as Military Officers can learn something. He did work hard for his degree as did all of us who have a degree....regardless of the major.

   Ok, forgive me for sticking up for DNall; I'm a member of his fan club...lol.

[DNall]

ah crap. Now there's fan clubs? Does that help or hurt in a security clearance investigation?  Thanks doc, but it's really no problems. No sweat off my back, I got a decently thick skin. I can't go starting contentious discussions & then expect everyone to play nice in everything they say. It's really no big deal.

[JohnKachenmeister]

OK, so now DNall has a fan club.  What I want is groupies waiting for my band bus at the backstage door!

[DNall]

Dangit, I forgot about groupies. Now I want some of those too. What form is that again to get them issued by the Army?

[flyguy06]

There must have been a reason that they felt it necessary to tack on that last phrase about them being under the age of 21.  I have a hard time believing they would do that unless there was some other requirement limiting it to 21 or above. 

Thats not true. There are six military junior colleges inthe USA. They will commission you as a college sophomoer and that is usually age 20. Now with that in mind, you MUST get your Bachelors in order to keep that commission.

[flyguy06]

Check this out since we are talking about ranks. In the National Guard, the Head of each state is called the Adjutant General (or TAG for short). There are 52 of these each state plus the Virgin Islands and PR) each TAG is normally a two-star General. Why? Because the CHief of the National Guard Bureau whos is a full time Guardsman in Washington DC is a three star Genral. Now, in my state, the Givenor promoted our TAG to three stars. I dont know how he did it, but he did. SO, now our TAG is the only three start TAG int he nation. However it is only recognized inthe state. If he goeas outside the state or if goes in front of the Chief, National Guard Bureau, he WILL where two stars. Its kinda strange, but hey its way above my pay grade, so I dont get involved. Jusst thought I'd mention it.

[DNall]

Check this out since we are talking about ranks. In the National Guard, the Head of each state is called the Adjutant General (or TAG for short). There are 52 of these each state plus the Virgin Islands and PR) each TAG is normally a two-star General. Why? Because the CHief of the National Guard Bureau whos is a full time Guardsman in Washington DC is a three star Genral. Now, in my state, the Givenor promoted our TAG to three stars. I dont know how he did it, but he did. SO, now our TAG is the only three start TAG int he nation. However it is only recognized inthe state. If he goeas outside the state or if goes in front of the Chief, National Guard Bureau, he WILL where two stars. Its kinda strange, but hey its way above my pay grade, so I dont get involved. Jusst thought I'd mention it.

Actually, the way I understand it you can only have a federal commission in the guard up to Colonel, and ALL gruard generals are on state commissions for their stars. I know that was the case for the AAG-Air I knew here who had a federal commission at O-6 & state commission at O-7. The TAG at that time had a federal commission at O-9 cause he'd held it on active duty & was confirmed by congress. I'm not absolutely positive on all this, but I know for sure they do have to revert to federally recognized grade when called to federal active duty for over 30 days or something &/or in Washington. I've seen the rule on it, but the exact details ellude me right this second.

[flyguy06]

That is not true. The TAG is NOT a once a month soldier. He is a full time Guardsman. He is AGR (active Guard/Reserves) So he is basically active duty. My Brigade Commander is a one star. He is a monthly soldier. and his commission as well as mine is federaly recognized. The Guard in no differant than active duty. Maybe it was like that back inthe day, but nowadys. A commission is a commission. They are all the same. I went through the Guard OCS program. It was certified by FT Benning. We had FT Benning instructors and I have the same commission my active duty brothern have

[JohnKachenmeister]

To explain the point of state vs, federal rank.  The governor can commission officers to any rank.  This is called a state commission.  IF the officer meets the standards set by the Army or Air Force for that rank, then the officer will be "Federally recognized" at that rank.

Otherwise, once called to federal active duty, the state rank comes off, and the highest federal rank goes on.  On state active duty (disaster relief, for example) the state rank stays on.

When I was commissioned, I got BOTH a state and federal commission.  I got the governor's first, then the President's a few months later, backdated to the day I completed OCS.  I never got a new federal commission to reflect my new rank, but when I was promoted to Major in the Guard, I got a new governor's commission certificate with my new rank.

1LT and CPT I made in the USAR, so I didn't get a state commission.

[flyguy06]

This may be true and it may have been like that in Vietnam. But in today's National Guard, I have never seen that and I have been in for 18 years.

[DNall]

No, John is right on this one. It's not one of those real obvious things that everyone knows about, but it is the case. For instance, you can go thru that state OCS program prior to finishing a degree. Because it meets the curriculum requirements of the big Army & you're eval'd by a federally commissioned officer, if you DO have your degree done then you'll get a federal commission from the start. On the other hand, if you're still lacking some hours or there is some other issue (paperwork a lot of times) then you will get a state commission at the start, which gets you out to your unit acting as an officer, then when you finish up you'll be eval'd again & get the federal commission you now qual for. That's the way it works right now based on how Congress does the strength numbers, but if they want to push that number up over the congressional allowance than sometimes they do that by keeping NG officers on state commissions. It also happens sometimes that the state will promote you & it'll become federally recognized six months later. It really isn't a big deal at all.

You see it at that stage & you also see it at the very top with TAG & AAGs (they're on state active duty, you notice they DO wear state decorations). BCT/CCs I would think would have a federal commission based on the nature of their assignment.

This is all well beyond semantics, so ^^ just for the sake of discussion.

[lordmonar]

That is not true. The TAG is NOT a once a month soldier. He is a full time Guardsman. He is AGR (active Guard/Reserves) So he is basically active duty.

AGR is full time on the states dime not the federal dime....and that makes a difference.

My Brigade Commander is a one star. He is a monthly soldier. and his commission as well as mine is federally recognized. The Guard in no different than active duty. Maybe it was like that back in the day, but nowadays. A commission is a commission. They are all the same. I went through the Guard OCS program. It was certified by FT Benning. We had FT Benning instructors and I have the same commission my active duty brethren have

Sort of...the regular services recognize all state commissions...but there is a difference.  If the NG gets federalised...the DOD does NOT have to recognized those commissions.  If we went to war and all the NG's got federalized and we did not need so many officers...the DOD could convert them to enlisted ranks.  Not this will ever happen in the near future...but it has happened in the past and is still in the rule books.

[JohnKachenmeister]

This may be true and it may have been like that in Vietnam. But in today's National Guard, I have never seen that and I have been in for 18 years.

Flyguy:

First, I was enlisted in Vietnam.  I was not commissioned until 1978.

Your state may do it different.  The governor of Ohio makes it a point to award commissions to all Guard officers.  Guard officers hold "Dual commissions,"  state and federal.  This is seldom an issue, except when the gov. commissions an officer higher than his federal grade.  He can wear the higher rank, but is paid by his federal grade unless he is on state active duty.  If called to federal active duty, he can not wear state awards nor state rank.

[flyguy06]

That is not true. The TAG is NOT a once a month soldier. He is a full time Guardsman. He is AGR (active Guard/Reserves) So he is basically active duty.

AGR is full time on the states dime not the federal dime....and that makes a difference.

My Brigade Commander is a one star. He is a monthly soldier. and his commission as well as mine is federally recognized. The Guard in no different than active duty. Maybe it was like that back in the day, but nowadays. A commission is a commission. They are all the same. I went through the Guard OCS program. It was certified by FT Benning. We had FT Benning instructors and I have the same commission my active duty brethren have

Sort of...the regular services recognize all state commissions...but there is a difference.  If the NG gets federalised...the DOD does NOT have to recognized those commissions.  If we went to war and all the NG's got federalized and we did not need so many officers...the DOD could convert them to enlisted ranks.  Not this will ever happen in the near future...but it has happened in the past and is still in the rule books.

We just got back from Iraq (which is definantly federalized) and we all had the same rank we had back in the state.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Like I said, it is rare for a governor to commission someone higher than his federal grade.  Normally it happens only at the general officer level.  A colonel who is appointed to a BG position has to wait on a list until his star is officially recognized by the federal government, since there is a Congressionally-imposed limit on the number of general and flag officers.  He has to wait out deaths and retirements until he bubbles up on the list.

Not so with a Guard general.  The governor commissions him a BG, and on goes the star.

The exception to this is when a general selectee goes overseas.  A colonel in a general officer command who has his unit deploy overseas usually is "Frocked" or paid as a colonel but with the badge of rank of a general.

This happened with a USMA grad that took over my USAR reserve command back in the 80's.  He wanted to put on that star, so he talked somebody at DA into deploying us to Honduras for training.  He went with the HQ, and got frocked before we went.  He got his star, I spent 6 months in the jungle and got a re-lapse of my malaria.

Doo-doo rolls down hill, and I live in the valley.

[lordmonar]

That is not true. The TAG is NOT a once a month soldier. He is a full time Guardsman. He is AGR (active Guard/Reserves) So he is basically active duty.

AGR is full time on the states dime not the federal dime....and that makes a difference.

My Brigade Commander is a one star. He is a monthly soldier. and his commission as well as mine is federally recognized. The Guard in no different than active duty. Maybe it was like that back in the day, but nowadays. A commission is a commission. They are all the same. I went through the Guard OCS program. It was certified by FT Benning. We had FT Benning instructors and I have the same commission my active duty brethren have

Sort of...the regular services recognize all state commissions...but there is a difference.  If the NG gets federalised...the DOD does NOT have to recognized those commissions.  If we went to war and all the NG's got federalized and we did not need so many officers...the DOD could convert them to enlisted ranks.  Not this will ever happen in the near future...but it has happened in the past and is still in the rule books.

We just got back from Iraq (which is definantly federalized) and we all had the same rank we had back in the state.

Yes sir....and the military right now needs all the officers it can get ergo....they chose to recognise your state commission (assuming you do not also hold a federal commission).

[DNall]

Yes sir....and the military right now needs all the officers it can get ergo....they chose to recognise your state commission (assuming you do not also hold a federal commission).

Careful, cause that word "recognition" tends to mean they eval your quals & grant a federal commission. I know a guy actually I shuld ask about this. He joined the guard (MP) to pay for school & got sent to state OCS a couple years in. He got a state commission cause he'd yet to finish his degree. Then they were deployed to Gitmo for a year (not very good things to say about the current residents). I know he kept his bar while down there. I met him after he'd gotten back & he was in school then. I don't know if they granted him a federal commission or not. Obviously he didn't have a degree, but he was on active duty for over 30-60 days whatever the number is before you're supposed to take off. I don't know the paperwork came down on that.

[mikeylikey]

That is not true. The TAG is NOT a once a month soldier. He is a full time Guardsman. He is AGR (active Guard/Reserves) So he is basically active duty.

AGR is full time on the states dime not the federal dime....and that makes a difference.

My Brigade Commander is a one star. He is a monthly soldier. and his commission as well as mine is federally recognized. The Guard in no different than active duty. Maybe it was like that back in the day, but nowadays. A commission is a commission. They are all the same. I went through the Guard OCS program. It was certified by FT Benning. We had FT Benning instructors and I have the same commission my active duty brethren have

Sort of...the regular services recognize all state commissions...but there is a difference.  If the NG gets federalised...the DOD does NOT have to recognized those commissions.  If we went to war and all the NG's got federalized and we did not need so many officers...the DOD could convert them to enlisted ranks.  Not this will ever happen in the near future...but it has happened in the past and is still in the rule books.

Could you imagine if this happened and NG Officers were told to put stripes on.  NG Officers would revolt.  Last time I looked, NG officers did not take an oath of enlistment.  I seriously doubt there is any provision to make NG officers transfer over to the enlisted side.  If there is it is jacked up and needs erased as soon as possible.  How can the Federal Government say "Major Joe Blow we don't need officers so we are activiting your States NG and converting you to a private and sending you to Iran"  Never could that happen.  States would not allow it to happen.  Don't forget that NG units go to war with THIER own Officers, not an assigned Federal Officer.

I thought I saw the TAG for my state on the Promotion list in Army Times a few years back.  Her second star is surely recognized by the Federal Government. 

The rule is that Officers go to war with the rank they wear no matter if it is NG, Reserve or Regular.  They may be advanced in rank by way of FROCKING but they are not demoted in rank until they return back to wherever they left from.  Perfect example was World War 2.  Officers were advanced in rank, paid at thier real rank and forced to remove the advanced rank when they returned home. 

[Hammer]

  On my wall hangs a Certificate from the Texas Commission on Law Enforcement licensing me as a Peace Officer as well as a Commission from my agency appointing me as a Police Officer for the State of Texas, that also hangs on my wall, But that isn't what really makes me a Peace Officer or what really gives me any special powers, or even what allows me to carry my gun everywhere I go. That power ultimately comes from the oath I swore to with the Secretary of State and with the Agency who commissioned me as a Peace Officer. But it is a total package. (my credentials I carry in my wallet attests to the fact that I'm a Commissioned Officer)

So, what is the difference between a Peace Officer, and a Police Officer/LEO?

[Hammer]

There must have been a reason that they felt it necessary to tack on that last phrase about them being under the age of 21.  I have a hard time believing they would do that unless there was some other requirement limiting it to 21 or above. 

Thats not true. There are six military junior colleges inthe USA. They will commission you as a college sophomoer and that is usually age 20. Now with that in mind, you MUST get your Bachelors in order to keep that commission.

Which colleges are those?

[Hammer]

Check this out since we are talking about ranks. In the National Guard, the Head of each state is called the Adjutant General (or TAG for short). There are 52 of these each state plus the Virgin Islands and PR) each TAG is normally a two-star General. Why? Because the CHief of the National Guard Bureau whos is a full time Guardsman in Washington DC is a three star Genral. Now, in my state, the Givenor promoted our TAG to three stars. I dont know how he did it, but he did. SO, now our TAG is the only three start TAG int he nation. However it is only recognized inthe state. If he goeas outside the state or if goes in front of the Chief, National Guard Bureau, he WILL where two stars. Its kinda strange, but hey its way above my pay grade, so I dont get involved. Jusst thought I'd mention it.

Are you, by chance, from MD?

[Hammer]

(they're on state active duty, you notice they DO wear state decorations).

IMHO, which doesn't mean a whole lot, I think it's aubsulute BS that State Decorations must come off when on FAD.  I mean you earned it, so why not.....  If my memory serves, there is an AD AF General who has a State Decoration, and he wan't in the NG.  I am all for wearing State Decorations on the uniform.  My uncle is WVANG, and another is WVARNG, and yet another is PAARNG, and they have alot of State Decorations, and I know that they mean alot to each of them.  But hey, what's my opinion matter.

[Hammer]

they chose to recognise your state commission (assuming you do not also hold a federal commission).

When ANG Officers graduate the National whatever it's called where they do their version of OCS, they receive USAFR Commissions, and when they get to their state, they get a State Commission.  At least that's how my uncle put it to me.

[flyguy06]

Check this out since we are talking about ranks. In the National Guard, the Head of each state is called the Adjutant General (or TAG for short). There are 52 of these each state plus the Virgin Islands and PR) each TAG is normally a two-star General. Why? Because the CHief of the National Guard Bureau whos is a full time Guardsman in Washington DC is a three star Genral. Now, in my state, the Givenor promoted our TAG to three stars. I dont know how he did it, but he did. SO, now our TAG is the only three start TAG int he nation. However it is only recognized inthe state. If he goeas outside the state or if goes in front of the Chief, National Guard Bureau, he WILL where two stars. Its kinda strange, but hey its way above my pay grade, so I dont get involved. Jusst thought I'd mention it.

Nope, why did thta happen in MD?

Are you, by chance, from MD?

[flyguy06]

There must have been a reason that they felt it necessary to tack on that last phrase about them being under the age of 21.  I have a hard time believing they would do that unless there was some other requirement limiting it to 21 or above. 

Thats not true. There are six military junior colleges inthe USA. They will commission you as a college sophomoer and that is usually age 20. Now with that in mind, you MUST get your Bachelors in order to keep that commission.

Georgia Military College
Marian Military Institute
New Mexico Military Institute
Valley Forge
I cant think of the other two right off hand

Which colleges are those?

[flyguy06]

You guys amek it sound like there is a big difference between National Guard Officers and Active Duty Officers. I think a lot of people think that but in reality there is no difference at all. I have been a National Guard oficer for six years. I went to the SAME Officer basic course as active duty officers. I have been deployed twice in six years to Bosnia and Iraq. In fact, since I have become an officer, I have been deployed more times that when I was enlisted on active duty. The schools we go to are the same. We have to meet the same standards. SO, really ther eisnt much differnce other than they do it everyday and we do it once a month and really we do it everyday too. Being a Guard officer isnt a once a month thing.We have meetings to attend. We have write up awards. We have to sign stuff and meetings to attend. Its like a full time job

[DNall]

When ANG Officers graduate the National whatever it's called where they do their version of OCS, they receive USAFR Commissions, and when they get to their state, they get a State Commission.  At least that's how my uncle put it to me.

ANG officers go to regular OTS right alongside active & reserve officers, just the selection process is different. They get a reserve commission graduating from the federal program, reserve & active officers get regular commissions. No big deal.

Army NG is a little different as they need quite a few more junior officers. They select their own candidates, send them to basic training (if they haven't already been - and where they DO swear an oath of enlistment), then bring them back for one wknd/mo two wks a year style OCS over 18mos run by the state - during which they get paid at E-5 (unless they were already higher then that). There is no requirement that they have a degree before they start or when they finish, though it's obviously encouraged. The feds then officially "recognize' them right away or at some point later, depending on when they decide they meet the regular Army requirements.

Once on Active duty, the Army can revert a person to the lowest federal grade. That might be one step back or it might be all the way to E-5, depending on what the feds have "recognized" up to that point. Obviously this isn't that big a deal since the states do a pretty good job & most are federally recognized right away or within six months, and are rarely promoted over federal grade except at general grades that are kind of tied by tradition to certain positions. Frocking is a whole seperate & barely related subject.

[lordmonar]

There must have been a reason that they felt it necessary to tack on that last phrase about them being under the age of 21.  I have a hard time believing they would do that unless there was some other requirement limiting it to 21 or above. 

In some jurisdictions you cannot enter into certain contracts until you are 21.  The 18 year old age of majority is NOT a universal.

That is the big sticking point.  By age 21 you are no longer a minor in any jurisdictions in the the United States and before the 70's you had to be 21 to vote. 

A lot of this is still a hold over of old laws and mind sets.  Of course...the age issue can be waived so if you really had some hot shot 16 year old who really was smart enough and mature enough to do the job....he could get an age waiver and be come an officer. (well no because we have treaties forbidding "children" from serving in the military...but that is a different issue).

[AlphaSigOU]

So, what is the difference between a Peace Officer, and a Police Officer/LEO?

Just wording. They're one and the same.

[DrJbdm]

So, what is the difference between a Peace Officer, and a Police Officer/LEO?

  It's all in terminology. a Peace Officer is the same thing as a Police Officer or a Law Enforcement Officer (LEO). Basically as Peace Officers we are all Law Enforcement Officers. The State Licenses us as Peace Officers and the term Police Officer or LEO is more of a generic term. In the state code of criminal procedures it lists who are Peace Officers and believe me it's a big list.... All those individuals in that position must be licensed by the State and Commissioned as Law Enforcement Officers.. or.. Police Officers. whatever term you or that agency cares to use. it's all one in the same. A Sheriffs Deputy and a State Trooper as well as a City Police Officer are all Peace Officers and they can all call themselves Police Officers.

   The short answer? It's all the same animal. At least here in Texas and in most other states.