Should uniform inspections be a required part of senior member meetings?

[A.Member]

Two points:

1. As far as adult "Officers" are concerned, uniform wear is NOT mandatory except while directly administering the cadet program or flying in a CAP aircraft.

For the VAST majority of members it is wholly optional.

That is not a true statement. 

I'd suggest reviewing the remainder of 39-1, Table 1-1.  Particularly applicable is the part that refers to wear of a CAP uniform:
"when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions".

If you're feeling really ambitious, you could continue down to Section 1-5.

As a near 25 year veteran of CAP, VERY active in ES and operations (and an IC to boot)...

Seems you really ought to know better.

[RiverAux]

On the other hand...we got a guy who just does not wear any uniform (corporate or USAF) to any meetings or ES function.  A much grosser violation of both the letter and spirit of the regulation.  Do we loose his skills just for a uniform (or lack there of).

Yes.  People should be cut slack every now and again for meetings, but not at ES functions. 

[Hammer]

So...we got some ex army guy who just has to wear his Combat Infantryman's Badge (which I believe is not authorized) do we loose what ever skills he brings to the table for a badge?

IF I had the CIB (Or the CMB or CAB for that matter...or for that matter even the EIB and EMB), I would wear it.  This is CAP, and I've seen it done.  I know in the Air Force, you can only wear them when assigned to an Army unit, but I repeatedly see AF people in an AF unit wearing them, but that is the Air Force, not CAP.  Even if CAP isn't supposed to wear the CIB or CMB or CAB or EIB or EMB, I'd back up whoever wore it!  just my $0.02, here not trying to be an @$$.

[lordmonar]

So...we got some ex army guy who just has to wear his Combat Infantryman's Badge (which I believe is not authorized) do we loose what ever skills he brings to the table for a badge?

This surprises me, lordmonar. This is in the manual. Civil Air Patrol Manual 39-1. The uniform manual.

For further reference: Page 116, Table 6-5, US Military Badges Authorized on CAP Service Uniforms and BDUs, Line 3, Combat Infantry or Army Medical Badge.

Why didn't you know that? Not a challenge, I'm legtimately wondering.

Second, if we educate people as to why we wear the uniforms, instead of just forcing compliance, we get a team. Not a bunch of conscripts. Same principle as leading a horse to water.

Because I don't know the manual chapter and verse.   I should have substitude  Naval Surface Warfare Badge or one of them not listed.

The point being....some earned badge that is not mentioned in the regulation.

[lordmonar]

...Not everyone has a copy of the reg open to the proper page when posting to an internet forum... 

You're right!  Why look something up and quote an authority when you can speculate wildly online!   

Want to try that one again sir!

If you go back and look you will see I said I beleive...and your comments have nothing to do with the substance of my comment.

How would you handle it sir?  What would you do if one of your people wore an unauthorized but earned badge on his uniform and refused to remove it?

Stay on topic instead of saying I am talking out of my ass please sir.

[lordmonar]

Why didn't you know that?

Because if he needed to know it, he would have looked it up.  Not everyone has a copy of the reg open to the proper page when posting to an internet forum.  Additionally, there are subtle differences between the Air Force and CAP uniform manuals.

I see that point. But I'm hoping that he did not just tell the person that it wasn't unauthorized. And it's something that you can always tell someone that you'll look it up and get back to them.

This disturbs me somewhat because if that person read the manual later, and discovered that it was authorized, it will hurt that persons trust in you. I make a point of telling someone I will get back to them, unless I've recently something about in the reg and am sure of it.

It was a hypothetical situation...and I would double check before I told them...or I would have prefaced my comments with..I'm not sure...but I think that's not authorised...are you sure it's okay to wear it?  Would double check for me?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Not so hypothetical is the Combat Action Badge.  The Army recently authorized the CAB for those soldiers who do not have an infantry or medical specialty, but who were in active combat.  CAP regulations permit the other two combat badges, but do not mention this new badge.

This is one of those situations where common sense should come into play. 

Regulations do not specifically PROHIBIT the CAB, and two of the three combat badges are authorized.  It is apparent to me that the CAB will be authorized eventually, as soon as the CAP regs catch up with the changes in the Army's.

So... The CAB should be the same as my gray hair... You earned it, you wear it!   

[Hawk200]

Because I don't know the manual chapter and verse.   I should have substitude  Naval Surface Warfare Badge or one of them not listed.

The point being....some earned badge that is not mentioned in the regulation.

Truly a horse of a different color. That one I know for a fact isn't. Sorry to snap, but I've seen several dozen people tell current and former soldiers that their CIB wasn't authorized. And that's not a figurative number, I've actually witnessed that being done.

And as for the later mentioned Combat Action Badge, if someone asked me, I would tell them that it was not currently authorized in the reg. I would hate to do it, I know guys that have them, but that would be my answer.

Although, as it has also been said, I think that any badge someone has earned should be allowed to be worn..

[Hotel 179]

By the way, whoever that was talking about showing up to a SaREx w/ a two-week beard & green flt suit, I'd have made you shave or go home before you could sign in, AND would have some choice words for your commander - that's actually how I'd treat you for a real mission, being it's a SaREx that's the good mood treatment. If I'm having a bad day yuo might get the choice words direct from the source & sent home. There's no tolerance on that, especially when you can walk in the bathroom & fix it.

That was me.....you are always good for a chuckle

Stephen

[SarDragon]

[stuff redacted]By the way, whoever that was talking about showing up to a SaREx w/ a two-week beard & green flt suit, I'd have made you shave or go home before you could sign in, AND would have some choice words for your commander - that's actually how I'd treat you for a real mission, being it's a SaREx that's the good mood treatment. If I'm having a bad day yuo might get the choice words direct from the source & sent home. There's no tolerance on that, especially when you can walk in the bathroom & fix it.  [more stuff redacted]

It's obvious you have little experience with beards. Removing two weeks of facial hair is NOT a simple "walk in the bathroom and fix it" evolution. I would neither expect someone to do that nor do it myself. As one of our "furry" members, I agree that the green bag wear was out of line, but i also think the situation, inside the big picture, was handled properly.

[Trung Si Ma]

I am trying to get them to wear military uniforms more since we have cadets and I want them to set the example.

Four years as a cadet, more than 20 years in the US Military, another 10+ as a senior after the military - I LOVE THE EMBROIDERED GOLF SHIRT AND GRAY SLACKS!  Work a little later on meeting nights, change shirts before leaving the office, what's not to like?

$40 dollars for a shirt, no insinnia to pin on.  Buy three shirts for the cost of one entire blue uniform with all of the trash that gets pinned on, what's not to like.

IC calls, needs an aircrew.  Tell the secretary how to get a hold of me, change shirts, go the airfield and fly, whats's not to like?

In these days of the business casual corporate office, the blue shirt is professional looking and easy on the PAO.

[Trung Si Ma]

So...we got some ex army guy who just has to wear his Combat Infantryman's Badge (which I believe is not authorized) do we loose what ever skills he brings to the table for a badge?

So you have no life altering event, represented by a small piece of metal, that you wear with pride and maybe to remember some friends?  Yeah, when wearing an AF style uniform I also wear the two purple hearts that go with that CIB.

As others have said, it's authorized and the price for earning it was more than any other pretty piece of ribbon on my AF style uniform - military (ours and foreign) or CAP.

[Trung Si Ma]

For example, I just got back from my Wing's Cadet Conference, and there is one senior member who is known for his tough attitude and ability to intimidate people.  He spent the entire weekend wearing the polo/gray slacks combo along with an unbuttoned BDU blouse and a RealTree hunting hat.

Needless to say, nobody corrected him due to fear they would be chewed out due to his reputation for less-than-friendly personality when people confront him.  So, our wing's cadets got great exposure to the mindset of "I'm above the regulations."

If you're talking about an OKWG 1LT, the OKWG/IG has been informaed and will talk to the individual during the upcoming SUI.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Because I don't know the manual chapter and verse.   I should have substitude  Naval Surface Warfare Badge or one of them not listed.

The point being....some earned badge that is not mentioned in the regulation.

Truly a horse of a different color. That one I know for a fact isn't. Sorry to snap, but I've seen several dozen people tell current and former soldiers that their CIB wasn't authorized. And that's not a figurative number, I've actually witnessed that being done.

And as for the later mentioned Combat Action Badge, if someone asked me, I would tell them that it was not currently authorized in the reg. I would hate to do it, I know guys that have them, but that would be my answer.

Although, as it has also been said, I think that any badge someone has earned should be allowed to be worn..

If someone ASKED me, I'd tell them the same thing.  If someone wore it, I would not make the correction. 

I figure National will correct the uniform violation when it updates the regs.

[Hammer]

Because I don't know the manual chapter and verse.   I should have substitude  Naval Surface Warfare Badge or one of them not listed.

The point being....some earned badge that is not mentioned in the regulation.

I've seen the Submarine Warfare Badge on an AD AF 1st LT's uniform.  But I haven't read anything about wearing it in AFI 26-2903, I think that's the right numbers.  BTW, is there a COMPLETE list of badges that can be worn on both the Air Force uniform, and the CAP Air Force Blues?

[Hawk200]

If someone ASKED me, I'd tell them the same thing.  If someone wore it, I would not make the correction. 

I'd probably do the same thing. Is it right? No. But I would make sure they know they wear at their own risk....

[Hawk200]

I've seen the Submarine Warfare Badge on an AD AF 1st LT's uniform.  But I haven't read anything about wearing it in AFI 26-2903, I think that's the right numbers.  BTW, is there a COMPLETE list of badges that can be worn on both the Air Force uniform, and the CAP Air Force Blues?

That doesn't surprise me. I've seen some other badges worn by USAF members that I didn't even know existed.

I've attached an excerpt from 36-2903 of the "badge list" for USAF uniforms. More footnotes to it than there is list is seems.

Also attached is an excerpt from 39-1 on authorized badges.

[Hammer]

I've seen the Submarine Warfare Badge on an AD AF 1st LT's uniform.  But I haven't read anything about wearing it in AFI 26-2903, I think that's the right numbers.  BTW, is there a COMPLETE list of badges that can be worn on both the Air Force uniform, and the CAP Air Force Blues?

That doesn't surprise me. I've seen some other badges worn by USAF members that I didn't even know existed.

I've attached an excerpt from 36-2903 of the "badge list" for USAF uniforms. More footnotes to it than there is list is seems.

Also attached is an excerpt from 39-1 on authorized badges.

Thanks, Hawk2000.  There's a whole crap-load of badges not mentioned there, though.

[Al Sayre]

The Navy Enlisted Air Warfare Specialist (EAWS) badge for example.  Is it an Occupational Specialty badge? Not really.  Is it an Aeronautical Rating?  Kind of...  Anyone have any suggestions on this one?

[MIKE]

I think you are supposed to call up the OPR at NHQ and they will give you the answer of the day for a question like that.