Should uniform inspections be a required part of senior member meetings?

[Al Sayre]

It's easier to leave it on the dresser...  I've got enough other "Bling" to worry about.

[Hawk200]

Thanks, Hawk2000.  There's a whole crap-load of badges not mentioned there, though.

I know. But to make an all inclusive list would be very time, not to mention paper, consuming to list everything authorized.

Personally, I think that all earned badges (not to include marksmanship badges), should be permitted for wear. There is a statement in 39-1 that could cover this, it would require a simple amendement to it. Just make the statement: "CAP members may wear US military badges earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies. "

It would make it simple. CAP is about the only National organization of its kind. We have folks that come in and like the fact that they contribute their prior experience, and some like the fact that some of their awards and decs can be worn on our uniform. I say, let them wear anything they earned. Fogleman had a similar policy, if you earned it, wear it.

The only stipulation I would have is they wear it the CAP way. I've seen jump and air assault wings worn on the pocket flap of the blues, and that's not right. They go above the ribbons or pocket, or equivalent position for females on the blouse. No other methods of wear would be permitted.

[RiverAux]

I would recommend:

CAP members may wear US military badges earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority.

Takes care of any military badges or awards earned by civilians (us or CG Aux) as well.  In my opinion, if any branch of the military has seen fit to give someone a military award, they should be allowed to wear it in accordance with whatever limitations exist in CAP regs. 

[MIKE]

For most awards and decorations I would agree RiverAux, but I'm not so sure about badges.

[Hammer]

The Navy Enlisted Air Warfare Specialist (EAWS) badge for example.  Is it an Occupational Specialty badge? Not really.  Is it an Aeronautical Rating?  Kind of...  Anyone have any suggestions on this one?

they are "wings" per say.  i would till someone shows me where it says I can't.  but then again, you've worked hard to earn them, so they shouldn't tell you to.

[shorning]

they are "wings" per say.  i would till someone shows me where it says I can't.  but then again, you've worked hard to earn them, so they shouldn't tell you to.

It's already spelled out.  You can wear it if it's authorized for wear on the Air Force uniform.  A lot of Navy badges are not.  Ya don't get to wear whatever you want.  Were I to join the Navy or Army, I'd have to give up at least one of my badges.  I can not wear it just because I earned it.

[ZigZag911]

There are so many qualification badges in the various services, perhaps some limitation is needed....however, I do think that those badges and/or devices that represent combat service ought to be permitted on the CAP uniform....if this requires some revision to the regs to make it legitimate, I feel (speaking as one who has not sered in the military) that those among us who have put themselves at risk for our defense ought to be recognized, and also recognizable.

[Hawk200]

I would recommend:

CAP members may wear US military badges earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority.

Takes care of any military badges or awards earned by civilians (us or CG Aux) as well.  In my opinion, if any branch of the military has seen fit to give someone a military award, they should be allowed to wear it in accordance with whatever limitations exist in CAP regs. 

OK, I can buy that. It's fair and equitable to everyone.

Now, what do we do to get the Powers That Be to change it?

[Hawk200]

There are so many qualification badges in the various services, perhaps some limitation is needed....however, I do think that those badges and/or devices that represent combat service ought to be permitted on the CAP uniform....if this requires some revision to the regs to make it legitimate, I feel (speaking as one who has not sered in the military) that those among us who have put themselves at risk for our defense ought to be recognized, and also recognizable.

I wouldn't limit like that. The reason being is that every badge that can be worn on the AF uniform may be worn on the CAP uniform. That's a pretty good load of badges. Out of 55 badges, only two Air Force badges aren't permitted. I've attached the chart from 36-2903.

At present, the Air Force does not have any kind of combat service badge. The Army has three basic combat badges.  The Navy, one or two (I don't even know what they are, someone Navy is going to have to answer this one).  I don't believe the Marine Corps has any, nor the Coast Guard. And obviously, the NOAA and PHS don't need one.

So if there are 53 badges from the Air Force that can be worn on the CAP uniform, why should we limit it for other services that have far fewer badges available? Most of the authorized AF badges are earned initially when one graduates from technical training. Far easier when compared to what it takes some of the other branches to get theirs.

[DNall]

[stuff redacted]By the way, whoever that was talking about showing up to a SaREx w/ a two-week beard & green flt suit, I'd have made you shave or go home before you could sign in, AND would have some choice words for your commander - that's actually how I'd treat you for a real mission, being it's a SaREx that's the good mood treatment. If I'm having a bad day yuo might get the choice words direct from the source & sent home. There's no tolerance on that, especially when you can walk in the bathroom & fix it.  [more stuff redacted]

It's obvious you have little experience with beards. Removing two weeks of facial hair is NOT a simple "walk in the bathroom and fix it" evolution. I would neither expect someone to do that nor do it myself. As one of our "furry" members, I agree that the green bag wear was out of line, but i also think the situation, inside the big picture, was handled properly.

You'd let him fly like that? We're talking about two weeks here, not two years. I didn't say it'd be comfortable, my point was he has control over his grooming & CHOSE to show up like that in THE uniform that they make the very biggest deal about (no unneccesary stops & such). To a formal SaREx by the way where everyone has notice about the event & who knows who will show up to take a look.

I don't care if you want to have a beard, it doesn't make any difference to me, but don't put me in a precarious spot w/ liability/insurance/risk mgmt issues, not to mention getting dumped on from above. I'm over here working hard doing my job, and I don't deserve to get crapped on cause you made a choice. I don't care if it was lazy, didn't have time, or what the hell ever, you don't have the right to be selfish & put me in that boat.... That's what I'm going to be thiking when I see that situation in front of me.


Far as mil badges... I mentioend how the CAP interpretation changed under the new AFI but that the contradictory chart makes it quirky. The next update would be to fix that chart, which gets rid of CIB & a few others. I'm not saying that's right, just that's where we are right now. Personally, I do think AF should allow CAP more latitude to wear other service mil badges not normally (rarely) auth on AF uniforms, but that's an AF call.

[carnold1836]

Interesting to see how these threads become a life all their own. If I remember correctly this thread was started to simply discuss the merits of senior officers being inspected in a formal formation during regular meetings. It quickly turned into what Militarty badges and awards should or shouldn't be worn, and whether to let someone fly with 2 weeks growth in the green flight suit.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not complaining or saying the way the thread went is wrong. I am simply commenting on how these things sping to life like Frankenstein's Monster, get released into the wild and start throwing little girls down water wells.

Any way lets continue and see where this particular monster ends up and tally how many girls get trhown down wells.

We now return you to your nomally scheduled rants and raves. 

[Monty]

You're right!  Why look something up and quote an authority when you can speculate wildly online!   

I wasn't talking about your posting style...


Relax.  Un-bunch your shorts.  Go look for someone to 2b or something.

Dude, I swear I just snarfed in my coffee cup.  Gross!   

Gotta quote my cadets on this one.  "oh.........SNAP!"

[MIKE]

Dude, I swear I just snarfed in my coffee cup.  Gross!   

Drink it! 

[Hotel 179]

[ I don't care if it was lazy, didn't have time, or what the hell ever, you don't have the right to be selfish & put me in that boat.... That's what I'm going to be thiking when I see that situation in front of me.

You are killing me

I've already told the list that it was an actual SAR with a downed aircraft and I got the call to come up after I was at work.  Trust me, the grieving parents didn't give two rips when I met them at the Mission Base.  They were thankful that we all dropped what we were doing for a total stranger....When you have been on a few actuals you'll see what I mean. I've also said that my blue bag was busted so I left work and went straight to the aircraft with my gear available to me. 

I was called on it, fixed my zipper, still have my beard....AND was offered $30 an hour to be Santa at the Mall last week.  Life is good.

My black goatskin A2 should be arriving any day now from Pop's Leather.  I can't wait to see how it looks with the new corporate uniform.  I don't wear the AF blues because, well I was offered $30 an hour to be SANTA   Until it arrives I may just wear my brown A2 as civilian outerwear if it ever gets cold enough here on the beach.

Why don't you come down for a visit...changes in latitude, changes in attitude?

Semper vi, y'all.

Stephen

[JohnKachenmeister]

There are so many qualification badges in the various services, perhaps some limitation is needed....however, I do think that those badges and/or devices that represent combat service ought to be permitted on the CAP uniform....if this requires some revision to the regs to make it legitimate, I feel (speaking as one who has not sered in the military) that those among us who have put themselves at risk for our defense ought to be recognized, and also recognizable.

I wouldn't limit like that. The reason being is that every badge that can be worn on the AF uniform may be worn on the CAP uniform. That's a pretty good load of badges. Out of 55 badges, only two Air Force badges aren't permitted. I've attached the chart from 36-2903.

At present, the Air Force does not have any kind of combat service badge. The Army has three basic combat badges.  The Navy, one or two (I don't even know what they are, someone Navy is going to have to answer this one).  I don't believe the Marine Corps has any, nor the Coast Guard. And obviously, the NOAA and PHS don't need one.

So if there are 53 badges from the Air Force that can be worn on the CAP uniform, why should we limit it for other services that have far fewer badges available? Most of the authorized AF badges are earned initially when one graduates from technical training. Far easier when compared to what it takes some of the other branches to get theirs.

Hawk:

The Navy issues a "Submarine Combat Patrol" and "Combat Aircrew" badge, which is work on the Navy uniform under the ribbon rack.  Otherwise, both the Navy and Marine Corps award a "Combat Action Ribbon" to those in actual combat.

That's why its unfair to say that ALL Navy/Marine folks who were in combat can wear the CA Ribbon, but only the Army folks who were infantry or medics can wear a device signifying exposure to hostile fire.

[Hawk200]

Hawk:

The Navy issues a "Submarine Combat Patrol" and "Combat Aircrew" badge, which is work on the Navy uniform under the ribbon rack.  Otherwise, both the Navy and Marine Corps award a "Combat Action Ribbon" to those in actual combat.

Thank you, sir. I knew there was a couple, but couldn't remember exactly what they were. I think they ought to be allowed to wear, but over the ribbons, just like any CAP badge would be worn.

That's why its unfair to say that ALL Navy/Marine folks who were in combat can wear the CA Ribbon, but only the Army folks who were infantry or medics can wear a device signifying exposure to hostile fire.

I was reading something, and I think it may have actually been in the Marine Corps uniform reg, that if a former soldier has a verified combat badge, then they may wear the Combat Action Ribbon on the Marine Corps uniform. So the Marines do recognize a persons combat experience, but they do it their own way.

Additionally, it seems like the Navy/Marine Corps treats the CAR like an Army combat patch. The patch just means you were there, not necessarily shot at.

So where does that leave the Marine with a CAR? Possibly out in the cold, but maybe not. Every Marine I've ever known had on ribbons on every service uniform they wore. Even the short sleeve shirts without tie. I imagine that putting ribbons on even that uniform is almost instinctive. But a ribbon is far less noticeable(harder to pick out of a crowd) than any badge.

Digressing, we allow pretty much any military decoration to be worn. Why not do the same for badges?

[davedove]

I was reading something, and I think it may have actually been in the Marine Corps uniform reg, that if a former soldier has a verified combat badge, then they may wear the Combat Action Ribbon on the Marine Corps uniform. So the Marines do recognize a persons combat experience, but they do it their own way.

Additionally, it seems like the Navy/Marine Corps treats the CAR like an Army combat patch. The patch just means you were there, not necessarily shot at.

So where does that leave the Marine with a CAR? Possibly out in the cold, but maybe not. Every Marine I've ever known had on ribbons on every service uniform they wore. Even the short sleeve shirts without tie. I imagine that putting ribbons on even that uniform is almost instinctive. But a ribbon is far less noticeable(harder to pick out of a crowd) than any badge.

Digressing, we allow pretty much any military decoration to be worn. Why not do the same for badges?

Just FYI, the Combat Action Ribbon is allowed for wear in CAP (#30 on Table 5-3 in  39-1).

[JohnKachenmeister]

Hawk:

The Navy issues a "Submarine Combat Patrol" and "Combat Aircrew" badge, which is work on the Navy uniform under the ribbon rack.  Otherwise, both the Navy and Marine Corps award a "Combat Action Ribbon" to those in actual combat.

Thank you, sir. I knew there was a couple, but couldn't remember exactly what they were. I think they ought to be allowed to wear, but over the ribbons, just like any CAP badge would be worn.

That's why its unfair to say that ALL Navy/Marine folks who were in combat can wear the CA Ribbon, but only the Army folks who were infantry or medics can wear a device signifying exposure to hostile fire.

I was reading something, and I think it may have actually been in the Marine Corps uniform reg, that if a former soldier has a verified combat badge, then they may wear the Combat Action Ribbon on the Marine Corps uniform. So the Marines do recognize a persons combat experience, but they do it their own way.

Additionally, it seems like the Navy/Marine Corps treats the CAR like an Army combat patch. The patch just means you were there, not necessarily shot at.

So where does that leave the Marine with a CAR? Possibly out in the cold, but maybe not. Every Marine I've ever known had on ribbons on every service uniform they wore. Even the short sleeve shirts without tie. I imagine that putting ribbons on even that uniform is almost instinctive. But a ribbon is far less noticeable(harder to pick out of a crowd) than any badge.

Digressing, we allow pretty much any military decoration to be worn. Why not do the same for badges?

The CAR is for ACTUAL combat, not just combat service like the Army's combat patch.  The guys in the rear with the gear and the beer who never hear the guns don't get it.

[Hawk200]

Just FYI, the Combat Action Ribbon is allowed for wear in CAP (#30 on Table 5-3 in  39-1).

Yeah it is. I apologize if I gave the impression it wasn't. I was trying to point out that ribbons are far less noticeable than a badge (even if both will indicate the same thing). People rarely look at a persons rack and say "What is that particular ribbon for?"

They will, however, look at a badge and say, "What's that for?"

[Hawk200]

The CAR is for ACTUAL combat, not just combat service like the Army's combat patch.  The guys in the rear with the gear and the beer who never hear the guns don't get it.

Ahh, I see, I've learned something new today. So it does in fact carry the same weight as any Army combat badge. Which explains the Marine Corps' "exchange" policy, allowing its wear in lieu of the combat badges.