BDUs as CAP's permanent official field uniform?

[wuzafuzz]

AFJROTC pays for the entire setup, Shoes, and entire Blue Uniform, I estimate all that at about $140 per Cadet.

Whether CAP Cadets are in ES does not matter. AFJROTC has no ES Mission, they get uniforms FREE, they also don't have the dues expense. 

Comparing Apples to Apples, Congress favors AFJROTC in funding.

I think we should try and close the gap.

Sure, go for it.  But don't demand anything.  We could save the taxpayers money while wearing civilian clothing.  I'm not suggesting we should go there, only that we aren't in a position to demand anything.  Ask nicely.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think one of the biggest problems with the "polos-only mindset" is that there is not a way to know you are encountering a senior officer and thus rendering a salute.

Yes, cadets know that they salute any "senior" member, though I'm not sure about the relatively few SNCO's we have, if they just call them by grade ("Good afternoon, Sergeant") so that's not so much an issue for them.

But for "seniors," unless you know the person and their grade, it's not possible to know if they're just wearing a polo and grey slacks.

Yes, it can be said that it's never improper to salute, and I agree.  However, I have run across isolated instances where I've saluted another member not displaying grade who is junior in grade to me and usually the response has been something like "Captain, you outrank me, why are you saluting me?"

That being said, one pleasant experience I had at an airshow as a first looie was when an AFRES first looie saluted me.  I returned the salute and said, "you're not required to salute me, even if I outranked you, which I don't."  He said "I know, just recognising a fellow officer."

As much as I dislike the white/grey combination, at least it shows the member's grade.

[Ned]

With all due respect, isn't this why there was such a big push for wing banker and the associated unqualified audit? 

Umm, no, not really. 

It is important to have an "unqualified" audit to show that we are good custodians of appropriated dollars, but there was never any suggestion that we would get increased CP funding as a result.  Most of the previous problems related to mixing appropriated maintenance dollars with corporate dollars/local funds at the squadron level.  We can now easily track what is what.

As a concerned member, I'd really like to what NHQ is doing to secure outside funding for serious needs such as this.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "outside" funding, but assuming for a moment you are talking about increased appropriations for cadet uniforms, let me tell you what I have done.

I have met personally within the last two weeks with the Air Force field-grade officer on the Air Staff who is responsible for our POM, and emphasized the very points that you and others have been making.  What a great deal we are compared to JROTC, etc.

The officer certainly agreed, but pointed out some sobering realities - the USAF budget is being cut, it is not growing.  Any additional money for CAP would have to come out of another USAF program in an era of shrinking budgets, and there are a lot of sharp knives out there seeking to cut other people's budgets.  It's easy to say that a couple of million dollars in the USAF budget is almost unmeasurable (which is certainly true), but it another thing entirely to find someone else willing to transfer that "small" of an amount out of their own budget into ours.

It may be a huge victory to keep our appropriated budged for CP at the current level, let alone grow it.

And she also gave me to understand that AFJROTC's budget is being cut - and cut severly.  There is even some talk of eliminating it altogether, precisely because it is fairly expensive when compared to  . . . oh, say . . . us.  Now is not a good time to try to hitch our wagon to JROTC's.  They may well want to hitch theirs to ours.

We continue to work hard on our own Free Cadet Uniform program, and although glitches occasionally happen, it is working fairly well.  Of course, units out there are very resourceful and a large number of cadets receive free uniforms through other sources like excess ROTC uniforms or through DRMO.  Thank Goodness we have a lot of terrific CP officers out there watching out for our cadets.

[Earhart1971]

Ned, good luck working with the Air Force, unfortunately they are in Budget straights too.
Asking the Air Force for money or more funding will not work.  We are two fisherman on the same lake in different boats.

The Civil Air Patrol needs to go direct to Congress. We have a Congressional Squadron. I have not been able to figure out with a Congressional Squadron and Congressional Members of CAP, why, the extreme differences in funding between AFROTC and the CAP Cadet Program exists.

AFJROTC expands units every year, and has appropriate funding and funding increases appropriate to the addition of new school unts, while CAP fights for Status Quo.

We have Cadets that span 6th Grade to College, active in the Cadet Program, that are head and shoulders above the quality of the AFJROTC Program.  CAP Cadets are 4 times more likely to graduate the Air Force Academy than a kid off the street, thats goes in the AFA.

[DakRadz]

AFJROTC is the cadet/youth/whatever program of the Air Force which is required by Congress or law or....


AFJROTC completes a requirement the USAF has to fill. I need to find the reference to why it is required. But I will.

HA! From the Holms Center website-
"The National Defense Act of 1916 authorized a junior course for non-college military schools, high schools and other non-preparatory schools. The Army implemented JROTC in 1916. Public Law 88-647, commonly known as the ROTC Vitalization Act of 1964, directed the secretaries of each military service to establish and maintain JROTC units for their respective services. The first Air Force JROTC programs were opened in 1966."

So that's why. Congressional mandate of higher power.


I completely disagree with your statement about CAP cadets vs. JROTC for a multitude of reasons.

Big one- on this very board, members have stated those with "financial difficulties/situations" shouldn't be worrying about joining CAP. JROTC isn't nearly as exclusive. More cadets I know have had there lives turned around by JROTC rather than CAP. And many more, but that's so far OT and I don't want to be disrespectful.
Even though my leadership qualities came from JROTC first...

[Earhart1971]

Like the GodFather said in the Godfather Part 1. Since the interests of AFJROTC and the interests of CAP are seperate, I wish the best to AFJROTC. CAP has a mandate too from Congress. CAP needs to interact with Congress not the Air Force.

[DakRadz]

I'm just throwing that out there.

P.S.- USNSCC (Sea Cadets) are the USCG's alternative to a JROTC program. It's their youth program. So that's why they get so much realistic-ish for cadets training.

CAP doesn't fall under the "you must have this" category.

You also forget an important factor- JROTC is retired military personnel, mandatory. CAP- you could end up with lordmonar (I just know he's retired, first example I can think of) teaching cadets. Retired, vetted through CAP separately to get where he's at, probably going to do an outstanding job, eh?

Or, you could get TP... Roy Hoydan (mispelled! )... Or a multitude of others teaching cadets.

I'm not saying CAP members can't do it without prior experience (my DCC is AWESOME and a great leader, no mil service)- but the fact that they don't necessarily have that experience will cause doubts in higher-ups minds.
And one bad apple can get the barrel thrown away.

[Patterson]

As a taxpayer, I would say cut the JROTC programs.  They offer no real benefit to the American Taxpayer.  CAP at least can use Cadets to carry out the other two missions that benefit the American Taxpayer.

See my point?

JROTC when it was a source of Trained Cadets ready for a Commission in the Army was very much needed.  It is no longer needed, very expensive and growing out of favor with many school districts and states. 

[tsrup]

As a taxpayer, I would say cut the JROTC programs.  They offer no real benefit to the American Taxpayer.  CAP at least can use Cadets to carry out the other two missions that benefit the American Taxpayer.

See my point?

JROTC when it was a source of Trained Cadets ready for a Commission in the Army was very much needed.  It is no longer needed, very expensive and growing out of favor with many school districts and states.

spoken like someone who was never in JROTC.

JROTC with its benefits in Active Duty is a very large recruiting tool for the DOD.  Its program does many of the same functions of CAP's cadet programs without the Come And Pay aspect.  It has a very positive influence on those who are a part of the program, even if military service isn't their goal.

[Patterson]

You also forget an important factor- JROTC is retired military personnel, mandatory. CAP- you could end up with lordmonar (I just know he's retired, first example I can think of) teaching cadets. Retired, vetted through CAP separately to get where he's at, probably going to do an outstanding job, eh?

Or, you could get TP... Roy Hoydan (mispelled! )... Or a multitude of others teaching cadets.

I'm not saying CAP members can't do it without prior experience (my DCC is AWESOME and a great leader, no mil service)- but the fact that they don't necessarily have that experience will cause doubts in higher-ups minds.
And one bad apple can get the barrel thrown away.

So false on so many levels it made me want to reply.  However I doubt anything I or anyone else types will change your bias toward JROTC.

Just know that it will go away long before CAP goes away. 

[Patterson]

spoken like someone who was never in JROTC.

JROTC with its benefits in Active Duty is a very large recruiting tool for the DOD.  Its program does many of the same functions of CAP's cadet programs without the Come And Pay aspect.  It has a very positive influence on those who are a part of the program, even if military service isn't their goal.

Seriously??  Do you understand how the JROTC Program works other than from the Cadet side?  Have you actually taken the time to investigate it at all?  Us working folk are paying your membership dues in JROTC as we sit here.  We have been since 1916.  Do you think that retired military Officer or NCO works for free?  Who do you think pays that person??  Please look at how much the line item for the CAP Cadet Program is compared to the line item for the JROTC Programs. 

You first countered my argument with the recruiting aspect of the JROTC Progam.  Ok, I can understand that.  Can you tell me how many former JROTC Cadets are currently on Active Duty?  I can!!  Then you rounded out your response with the antithesis of your first statement.  "It has a very positive influence on those who are a part of the program, even if military service isn't their goal".  (You can not do that when writing counterarguments, just saying..)  So, what are the positive influence factors on JROTC Cadets that do not go into the military??  Name a few......I will even give you a few;
1) They know how to read a military map (only Army and Marine JROTC Cadets though, Air Force does not teach that in the current textbooks)
2) They understand how the US Political System Works (that should have been your first response)

You see, JROTC is sold to the Congress as a "Civics Course".  You would know this if you looked it up.  In absolute reality, that is all it is.  It is a civics and humanities course covered up behind the uniform of your retired military NCO or Officer. 

What do JROTC Cadets do really?  What is the mission of JROTC?  When you answer these questions without giving the "boilerplate lines" found on their websites, you will be surprised. 

In the end the CAP has two missions beyond the Cadet Program mission.  We could possibly survive if we got rid of our Cadets.  We started out without Cadets....   Context and knowledge of a topic is important when addressing it on a forum.  When ever you start your counterargument with trying to dispel a persons knowledge by saying he or she has no idea what they are talking about because they "are not part of it" is known as the "bluff critique".  You try to get me to stay away from furthering my argument and leaving your post standing so others will believe yours is true by bluffing that you know more than I do on the off chance that I am not prepared enough to continue.

The Internet is a wonderful place.  You never know who you will run into.  For all you know I could be the the assistant to the undersecretary of defense for flower procurement and JROTC poster making.  Just saying........... 

[tsrup]

I know exactly who pays the instructors salaries for JROTC, and quite frankly Id rather pay them. I think they are more effective than the whole idea of the "No child left behind" act. 

If all you think that is taught in JROTC is map reading and uniform wear then you are grossly missing the forest for view of the trees. 

The JROTC mission is to "motivate young adults to become better citizens".  This mission is accomplished by setting a benevolent military environment that encourages the development of leadership and values such as integrity, ethical courage, and responsibility.  These are no one else words but my own, and they are my own personal beliefs based on my experience in the program. 

The structure and syllabus that is in a high school JROTC program is what sets it apart from the CAP cadet programs, that is why it gets the money, that is why the Armed Forces allow for advance grade depending on how many years you spend in the program.

We can argue the fact "which is better CAP or JROTC" till we're all red in the face, that's not my intent.  My intent is to counter that JROTC serves no purpose which is undoubtedly false. 

You think that an organization that values the development of cadets would find value in organizations that do accomplish the same mission.

As to the alleged counterpoint to my own argument, I was merely acknowledging the fact that JROTC is not a 100% feeder for the military and that those that do not join the service do benefit. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Even though my experience with JROTC is nil, except for being in a squadron that had a few dual-membership cadets, I have to side with the JROTC advocates, at least in the view of the Air Force.

The AF personnel who I have heard express an opinion (including at least one MTI) come down on the side of JROTC.

As I have lamented before, many, many AF people do not even know who we are.

So, when the money for funding uniforms comes down, guess who is the favoured child?

[Patterson]

I know exactly who pays the instructors salaries for JROTC, and quite frankly Id rather pay them. I think they are more effective than the whole idea of the "No child left behind" act. 

If all you think that is taught in JROTC is map reading and uniform wear then you are grossly missing the forest for view of the trees. 


The structure and syllabus that is in a high school JROTC program is what sets it apart from the CAP cadet programs, that is why it gets the money, that is why the Armed Forces allow for advance grade depending on how many years you spend in the program.

We can argue the fact "which is better CAP or JROTC" till we're all red in the face, that's not my intent.  My intent is to counter that JROTC serves no purpose which is undoubtedly false. 

You think that an organization that values the development of cadets would find value in organizations that do accomplish the same mission.

As to the alleged counterpoint to my own argument, I was merely acknowledging the fact that JROTC is not a 100% feeder for the military and that those that do not join the service do benefit.

You answered no questions I posed to you you.

You do understand that CAP Cadets were first to receive advanced grade if they decided to enlist right?  Did you know the Air Force "borrowed" the CAP Cadet Leadership and Aerospace curriculum and slapped a different cover on it?  Do you think the majority of the JROTC Instructors served in a relevant career field when compared to what they are actually teaching??

Are you even familiar with the CAP Cadet program at all?!?!  you see you wrote...."by setting a benevolent military environment that encourages the development of leadership and values such as integrity, ethical courage, and responsibility"
  That seems to be the CAP Cadet Program as well.  Except we add a few more factors that set the two programs apart.

You are right though.....we will never agree on which program is better.  No one could.  We are all biased, but you proved a point I wanted to make, that most people will counter arguments or differing opinions with beliefs instead of FACTS.

So, when you get a chance explore the answers to the questions I asked you before.  It may shift your position. 

[Eclipse]

Comparing JROTC with CAP does neither a service - they are different programs with different goals and missions.  The fact that the participants "kinda look the same" notwithstanding.   

Suggesting CAP needs to do a better job in getting their value understood by Congress is a valid point - suggesting that we increase our funding at the expense of another worthwhile program is incredibly counterproductive, arrogant, and potentially harmful to CAP.

[tsrup]

You answered no questions I posed to you you.

I shall now try to answer all of them.

You do understand that CAP Cadets were first to receive advanced grade if they decided to enlist right? 

I learned something new.  You get one.

Did you know the Air Force "borrowed" the CAP Cadet Leadership and Aerospace curriculum and slapped a different cover on it? 

Yes

Do you think the majority of the JROTC Instructors served in a relevant career field when compared to what they are actually teaching??

The same could be said about a mcdonalds employee who becomes a senior member in CAP.

Are you even familiar with the CAP Cadet program at all?!?!

Hmmm... being a current DCC and being senior rated in CP just coming back from serving as a Deputy Commandant at encampment.. leads me to: 

Seriously??

very

  Do you understand how the JROTC Program works other than from the Cadet side?

yes

  Have you actually taken the time to investigate it at all?

yes

Us working folk are paying your membership dues in JROTC as we sit here.  We have been since 1916.  Do you think that retired military Officer or NCO works for free?

Of course not

Who do you think pays that person??

DFAS

Please look at how much the line item for the CAP Cadet Program is compared to the line item for the JROTC Programs. 

You first countered my argument with the recruiting aspect of the JROTC Progam.  Ok, I can understand that.  Can you tell me how many former JROTC Cadets are currently on Active Duty? 

No, I cannot, but would love for you to share it.

I can!!  Then you rounded out your response with the antithesis of your first statement.  "It has a very positive influence on those who are a part of the program, even if military service isn't their goal".  (You can not do that when writing counterarguments, just saying..)  So, what are the positive influence factors on JROTC Cadets that do not go into the military??

I did actually answer this one.

  Name a few......I will even give you a few;
1) They know how to read a military map (only Army and Marine JROTC Cadets though, Air Force does not teach that in the current textbooks)
2) They understand how the US Political System Works (that should have been your first response)

You see, JROTC is sold to the Congress as a "Civics Course".  You would know this if you looked it up.  In absolute reality, that is all it is.  It is a civics and humanities course covered up behind the uniform of your retired military NCO or Officer. 

What do JROTC Cadets do really?  What is the mission of JROTC?  When you answer these questions without giving the "boilerplate lines" found on their websites, you will be surprised.

and I answered these already too.

In the end the CAP has two missions beyond the Cadet Program mission.  We could possibly survive if we got rid of our Cadets.  We started out without Cadets....   Context and knowledge of a topic is important when addressing it on a forum.  When ever you start your counterargument with trying to dispel a persons knowledge by saying he or she has no idea what they are talking about because they "are not part of it" is known as the "bluff critique".  You try to get me to stay away from furthering my argument and leaving your post standing so others will believe yours is true by bluffing that you know more than I do on the off chance that I am not prepared enough to continue.

The Internet is a wonderful place.  You never know who you will run into.  For all you know I could be the the assistant to the undersecretary of defense for flower procurement and JROTC poster making.  Just saying...........

So own up to your identity.  You cant hide behind anonymity then complain that everyone doesn't know your credentials.

[DakRadz]

Who do you think pays that person??

DFAS

Hmm... Just to expound a bit.
Since they are all receiving retired pay already, the cost is only to the school system in which they work. The school system pays half of their AD pay (or equal to retirement pay) plus provides benefits- the benefits for working are what gives the school system authority over Instructors as teachers- as opposed to them working for Holms Center/USAF/organization-of-choice. (Since the paychecks are equal)

It's a second job for those retired. US still pays them their retirement and they receive a second paycheck. The school system receives all this information when they are looking to get a unit.
If you have a local unit and you are a taxpayer- yes, you help pay for the JROTC instructors teacher-equivalent school-provided salary. Better JROTC than Basket-Weaving Class Specialist...

JROTC instructors aren't exactly draining the system dry- they get the equivalent of AD pay.
My father gets 150K for his new contractor job, yet still receives $40K~ in retirement. The JROTC instructors I've known can/could all have moved on to a better job- they prefer teaching young students and helping them.

[wuzafuzz]

So how about those BDU's? 

Plain green BDU's sounds OK to me. I still have my old OD field jacket with a CAWG patch on it  . I actually preferred the old get up because we had shirts that tuck into the britches!