BDUs as CAP's permanent official field uniform?

[Major Rob]

Since the BDU is no longer an official Air Force uniform (except as a legacy with a "not to be worn after" date, does that mean that CAP could simply adopt the BDU as its permanent official field uniform and not have to worry about AF authorization?

In other words, rather than moving to the ABU or ACU at some point (which most people here seem to think will happen *someday*), why not just stick with the BDU and call it our own?

I'm NOT trying to stir the pot or kick a hornets' nest here -- I'm just asking a question, because I'm interested in what others might think. Thanks!

[RADIOMAN015]

Since the BDU is no longer an official Air Force uniform (except as a legacy with a "not to be worn after" date, does that mean that CAP could simply adopt the BDU as its permanent official field uniform and not have to worry about AF authorization?

In other words, rather than moving to the ABU or ACU at some point (which most people here seem to think will happen *someday*), why not just stick with the BDU and call it our own?

I'm NOT trying to stir the pot or kick a hornets' nest here -- I'm just asking a question, because I'm interested in what others might think. Thanks!

We need to transition away from anything that is camoflague type uniforms.  CAP is not an invading military force that needs to hide.  CAP means CIVIL Air Patrol.   Perhaps the current various blue BDU's, flight suits, etc might be best to keep as the most conservative, but even a transition to a bright red type uniform might be in order.   The transition should be to have a single utility uniform color for all CAP members, seniors & cadets, since it is in the best interest of CAP for marketing brand identity.  CAP Civilians should not be confused with actual military members at ANY time

HOWEVER, again, a concern is the quality of the utility uniforms other than military procured may be a challenge.

I'm perfectly happy wearing the various golf shirts and grey pants, with occassion use of blue BDU's and extremely limited use of the white aviator shirt/grey pants combination.    I've participated in AF evaluations that got outstanding ratings with just the typical golf shirt, so I'm hard pressed to think that BDU's ACU's etc have any real bearing on mission accomplishment, other than in the insecure eyes of some that CAP tends to attract as members. :angel:   
RM

[DC]

See thread: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=9525.msg172112#msg172112

[Thrashed]

It is funny to wear woodland camo with an orange vest over it!

[RiverAux]

Did a poll based on this idea a while back - no one seemed to like the idea.
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2490.msg45079#msg45079

[vmstan]

As has been said in the past: We need to figure out how to become more of a part of the Air Force team, not move ourselves away from it.

[Eclipse]

As has been said in the past: We need to figure out how to become more of a part of the Air Force team, not move ourselves away from it.

Yep - if the affiliation with Big Blue is to be maintained closely, then we go multi-cam (CAP will never see the ABU), wearing the same field uniform as the USAF becomes a "used-to", then we'll go with the Blue Field Uniform.

Absent the military affinity, we have no use for camo anything.  Gray tac pants with ANSI shirts would be more appropriate than anything we are wearing today for all of our missions.

[Al Sayre]

^^Non-concur  the one big use for camo everyone seems to forget is the recruiting aspect.  When we hold recruiting events with our cadets in BDU's we have a much higher interest rate than when we show up in blues.  If we lose the military uniforms for the cadets we might as well be the Boy Scouts, because in the eyes of our target recruiting ages there would be no difference.

[Eclipse]

The recruiting aspect is a legit issue, but not what you base your operational decisions on.

I admit that BDU's do attract our younger recruits, but effective programs and cool activities would do the same thing at a much higher retention rate.

[HGjunkie]

I was sucked in for 3 reasons:

-Pilots license

-Military Uniform (BDUs to be exact)

-The military aspect of the CP


We shouldn't discount that BDUs don't attract members, along with the Mil. aspect of the CP.

YMMV

[Earhart1971]

If only I could get "elected" Supreme Dictator of Civil Air Patrol. Then we would have a good looking BDU Combination that makes sense to transition to.

That is not going to happen.

So here we languish with opinions on what should be done. Cat herding. And laying down to the Wims of the Air Force and a CAP Uniform Committee at National.

BTW is the CAP Uniform Committee still in existance?

[Майор Хаткевич]

I was sucked in for 3 reasons:

-Pilots license

-Military Uniform (BDUs to be exact)

-The military aspect of the CP


We shouldn't discount that BDUs don't attract members, along with the Mil. aspect of the CP.

YMMV

BDUs were the initial hit on me as an impressionable 13 year old.

Eventually the military aspect/leading took over.

However there are those in CAP who get more interested in the AE, and kinda muck through the cadet program to get to the things they like, usually quitting before their time and not getting to "leave a mark" as a cadet. Probably why we should have a separate AE membership where those folks just show up on AE nights/activities. 

[Smokey]

I've found that many (not all) of the members who propose we move away from military type uniforms are those that are of the "Flying club" attitude rather than interested in service.  In talking to many (and some posts here) they want to fly cheap (even to the extent of flying sheep counting missions if they could) and find the relationship to the military to be an annoyance.  Usually you will find them flying in the polo shirt uniform because "that nomex flight suit stuff is just silly." They even dislike the blue flightsuit because it's all about cheap flying.

I know of one squadron with a G1000 aircraft that puts on quite a few hours....but rarely are they "A" missions.  Most are of the "C" variety flow as "proficiency (read pleasure) flights."  You rarely see them answer the call for a real SAR or ELT mission.  CAP is just a flying club to them.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I'm perfectly happy wearing the various golf shirts and grey pants, with occassion use of blue BDU's and extremely limited use of the white aviator shirt/grey pants combination.    I've participated in AF evaluations that got outstanding ratings with just the typical golf shirt, so I'm hard pressed to think that BDU's ACU's etc have any real bearing on mission accomplishment, other than in the insecure eyes of some that CAP tends to attract as members. :angel:   
RM

Your stance on "getting CAP out of AF uniform" has been reiterated and, I think, is quite well known.

However, you do not need to be insulting about "the insecure eyes of some that CAP tends to attract as members."  I hope you did not intend that.

There are people who are attracted to CAP for its military aspects, and in most cases they do just as good a job as the members who could care less about uniforms.  It is all down to the individual and said individual's motivation.

That said, I would be perfectly pleased to keep the BBDU and blue flight-suit style jumpsuit as CAP's work/field uniform, and I do agree that we do not need camouflage.

Other options could be olive-green BDU's in winter (a nod to our history) and tan BDU's for summer.

Change all insignia to navy blue rather than ultramarine.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I've found that many (not all) of the members who propose we move away from military type uniforms are those that are of the "Flying club" attitude rather than interested in service.  In talking to many (and some posts here) they want to fly cheap (even to the extent of flying sheep counting missions if they could) and find the relationship to the military to be an annoyance.  Usually you will find them flying in the polo shirt uniform because "that nomex flight suit stuff is just silly." They even dislike the blue flightsuit because it's all about cheap flying.

BTDT, in a senior squadron where I was one of the very, very few non-pilots.  I was right-seat baggage (observer).

The circumstances were very similar to what you describe.  They would sign up their significant others as members so they could ride in CAP aircraft, but they did nothing else in the unit.  I would estimate we had probably 5-6 SO's as these members, which looks good on paper but isn't anything operationally.

When I transferred to the unit (due to a move) and wore the AF-type uniform (as I always have) they looked at me as if I was from another planet.

Many didn't even want to wear a polo shirt, let alone a flight suit (though some did, though not always with insignia)...their "concession" to "being in CAP uniform" when flying was to wear a CAP baseball cap.

[wuzafuzz]

I'm sure we all have our uniform preferences, but I'd advise caution when categorizing members' usefulness based on their uniform choices.  My squadron is a heavy duty polo shirt outfit; you won't find a uniform anywhere near most of our senior member meetings.  Yes, the uniforms do appear, properly worn, for activities, missions, and schools.  Of course on the cadet side it's nothing but uniforms. (Cadet and senior meetings are held separately since we are homeless.)

In spite of our polo shirt wear we are a very active unit, contributing mightily to CAP missions.  Our squadron boasts over 100 members, a substantial percentage of which are very active.  We are very motivated in ES, with a boatload of active IC's, branch directors, CUL's, GTM's and GTL's, etc.

Although I'm not a big fan of the polo uniform I see no correlation between uniform choice and effectiveness.  Pick the right clothing for the job and get r done!

BDU's?  Nothing to get excited about.  Cadets love 'em, but would love ABU's or multicam too.  If we wear camo to match our parent service, that's fine and makes some sense.  Otherwise it strikes me as a bit silly for our mission.  Having said that, I wear them.  They were free  and matching field gear is dirt cheap.  If I was starting out fresh I'd buy BBDU's.  I still might.

Edited to fix a typo or two.

[RiverAux]

I've found that many (not all) of the members who propose we move away from military type uniforms are those that are of the "Flying club" attitude rather than interested in service.  In talking to many (and some posts here) they want to fly cheap (even to the extent of flying sheep counting missions if they could) and find the relationship to the military to be an annoyance. 

I don't recall many, if any, members here admit to being "flying club" members so I'm not sure that your impression is correct. 

[Eclipse]

I've found that many (not all) of the members who propose we move away from military type uniforms are those that are of the "Flying club" attitude rather than interested in service.  In talking to many (and some posts here) they want to fly cheap (even to the extent of flying sheep counting missions if they could) and find the relationship to the military to be an annoyance. 

I don't recall many, if any, members here admit to being "flying club" members so I'm not sure that your impression is correct.

Yep - let's make sure we understand the positions and reasoning before making generalizations.  The Flying Clubbers disdain anything that isn't in their closet or that they "feel like" wearing, which is usually a well-worn t-shirt from Osh Kosh and shorts.

My desire for change and stability in the uniforms are (in this order):

Meets the mission requirements (which sometimes includes the most formal).
Makes us all look "uniform", without creating an artificial "underclass"
Maintains our military affiliation and history.

Any organization establishing uniforms or clothing wear regulations that does so outside of the above order, including the military,
is doing themselves and their membership a disservice, and as evidence of this I would point to the chaos that has been the
US military field uniform for almost ten years,

The issue with the USAF-style uniforms is that the respect and honor of wearing them comes at the price of dividing the membership
into two groups, while overly complicating what should be simple choices for clothing.  CAP isn't even afforded the full compliment
of options and articles, which means some choices that would make sense in a given situation are useless because a major component
is not approved.

The military affinity was a big attractor for me and continues to be a major part of the personal benefit of my service - not in the "wannabe mode", but in the "one team mode".  I also have the advantage of regular access to facilities and resources many members do not. However with all that said, and to head down well-traveled discussion road, I still maintain it is incredibly unfair to what is probably at least 1/2 the adult membership, that CAP is more than happy to accept and encourage high-tempo effort by members who are not afforded the same uniform choices as members who give 1/2 the effort but weigh a little less.

Like any survey or similar issue, the majority of the problem is the middle (pun intended) Throw out the top and bottom 10 percent and most of the "violators" are just typical middle-aged Americans who are healthy and match the image profile of their counterparts in similar organizations and government service.

[Major Rob]

Makes us all look "uniform", without creating an artificial "underclass"

I agree with this point wholeheartedly. I can't tell you how many times I've had other member try to take over during fall-in at the beginning of a meeting, claiming that my BBDUs are somehow not a uniform and only members in AF-style uniforms should head the senior flight and report to the commander.

These people obviously haven't read the regs, which state that ALL CAP uniforms are equal -- Period. There is no hierarchy based on style or type. If it's a CAP uniform and worn correctly, even the polo shirt uniform is the equal of the AF-style Class A's (if appropriate to the occasion, of course).

I've actually had one idiot tell me that he doesn't have to salute me, because I don't wear the AF uniform. He even claimed I was wrong when I showed him the reg! He's an arrogant, know-it-all jerk, but there are lots of those in life, aren't there?

As of today, I qualify as a "fuzzy," because my hair is about two feet long and almost reaches my waist. In October, I'll be donating my ponytail to Locks of Love, getting a mil-spec haircut, and then I'll be eligible to wear the camo BDUs (which I've already bought, by the way!).

I wonder what the jerk will do then?

I really don't get why some people have to try to set up artificial distinctions. We're all volunteers, giving of our time and abilities for the good of the organization. Jerks like this guy just serve to drive away people who might turn out to be valuable members. (In fact, I was at a Commanders' Call not long ago where somebody - not this guy - stated that we'd be better off without the people who don't fit the AF H/W standards! My reply? "Are you serious?")

I wish everybody would judge people by their contributions and not by the uniforms they wear. In fact, although I like the camo BDUs and keeping the symbolism of our relationship with the AF, I wouldn't be averse to going to BBDUs, just so jerks like I've described would be brought down a peg or two. Get them into the same uniform I have to wear right now and see how superior they feel.

This is why I think adopting the BDU as our corporate uniform would be a good idea, once the AF is out of the BDU business. Short of that, I would also agree that getting rid of it altogether would work, too. Whatever it takes to get us all into the same uniform would go a long way toward making us feel more like a team.

After all, that's why call it a "uniform," isn't it?

[UWONGO2]

I've actually had one idiot tell me that he doesn't have to salute me, because I don't wear the AF uniform. He even claimed I was wrong when I showed him the reg!

Would you mind sharing the regulation that definitively describes what customs and courtesies apply to each uniform? This question came up just this week at my squadron and there was a difference in opinion on what was required.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I've actually had one idiot tell me that he doesn't have to salute me, because I don't wear the AF uniform. He even claimed I was wrong when I showed him the reg!

Would you mind sharing the regulation that definitively describes what customs and courtesies apply to each uniform? This question came up just this week at my squadron and there was a difference in opinion on what was required.

Without quoting regulations, look at it this way.

Is an officer any less an officer if s/he is wearing BBDU's rather than BDU's?

You salute the brass, not the person wearing it.

[Hawk200]

Makes us all look "uniform", without creating an artificial "underclass"

....I really don't get why some people have to try to set up artificial distinctions.....

Your key word is there. People. The organization does not set up any kind of "underclass."

I'm still amazed that some in alternate uniforms try to claim this. You're not "underclass." No one that matters thinks so.

It also puzzles me that there are people here stating that we could do the job in any uniform. If it doesn't matter what uniform we use, why are people so hung up on being "uniform"? If the uniform doesn't matter, then we shouldn't have to worry about all looking exactly the same.

[davedove]

From CAPP 151 Respect on Display, pg. 5:

"Key Principle

When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP
senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves.
Senior members salute military officers and other CAP officers higher
in rank than themselves."


From CAPP 151 Respect on Display, pg. 6:

"When in uniform, salute officers upon recognition, regardless of
what the officer is wearing. For example, uniformed cadets salute their
squadron commander even if that commander is in civilian attire. In
such instances, the commander typically would verbally acknowledge
the salute, but not return it."

[Eclipse]

Makes us all look "uniform", without creating an artificial "underclass"

....I really don't get why some people have to try to set up artificial distinctions.....

Your key word is there. People. The organization does not set up any kind of "underclass."

I'm still amazed that some in alternate uniforms try to claim this. You're not "underclass." No one that matters thinks so.

We'll see about that in 2012.  If you have command staff at major activities wearing a blazer next to their subordinates
wearing USAF-combos, you tell me about whether there is an underclass of uniforms.  We've been here before to no resolution.

[MIKE]

From CAPP 151 Respect on Display, pg. 5:

"Key Principle

When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP
senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves.
Senior members salute military officers and other CAP officers higher
in rank than themselves."


From CAPP 151 Respect on Display, pg. 6:

"When in uniform, salute officers upon recognition, regardless of
what the officer is wearing. For example, uniformed cadets salute their
squadron commander even if that commander is in civilian attire. In
such instances, the commander typically would verbally acknowledge
the salute, but not return it."

The previous iteration of CAPP 151 as worded... not so much.  Just saying.

[Major Rob]

Further from CAPP 151:

Senior Members. For senior members, the rendering of customs and
courtesies is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all
uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer).

More importantly, and the tack I use when confronted by somebody making the claim that we have a heirarchy of uniforms, NO WHERE in CAP 39-1 is any distinction mentioned or specified. If anybody can show me ANYWHERE in the regs where there is a distinction between the AF-style and corporate equivalents (notice the word "equivalents"), except for the polo shirt/blazer combinations mentioned above, I'll buy them dinner and the most expensive bottle of wine on the wine list.

I'll do it here: If anybody thinks we have a heirarchy of uniforms in CAP, show me *anything*, *anywhere* in the regs that mentions it.

BBDUs = BDUs. White aviator shirt = AF blues. Period.

If I'm wrong, show me. Otherwise, I'll continue to believe that people who want to set themselves above the "fat and fuzzies" (not exactly a complimentary description in itself) are jerks that I'd rather not deal with.

Just my humble opinion, of couse, and open to change, IF anyone can show me where I'm wrong.

[MIKE]

Historically speaking, there was a clearer division... back when you could wear BDUs and the sage green bag if you did not meet weight and/or grooming standards... but you could not wear grade insignia...  The aviator shirt also only had the blazer name tag with miniature grade on it, and the CAPP 151 of the time reflected this...  Then they put epaulet sleeves and badges, and later ribbons on the aviator shirt, and the CAP distictive Field and Utility Uniforms came out followed by the CSU.

[cap235629]

Why not adopt an OD Green BDU for
everyone? Readily available, not currently
used by the military, harkens to our past,
functional, rugged and has the tacti-kewl
look cadets crave? I was a fan of
Stonewalls proposal a couple of years ago
of an OD green ACU but think we should
go with a BDU cut uniform to mirror the
cut of the ABU or Multicam uniforms the
AF is adopting.

[BillB]

And what is the cost to cadets for the pickle suit? There are still BDUs floating around from AFROTC and other sources free for cadets. By the time the ABU is authorized, if it is, there should be a supply of them coming from DRMO or AFROTC sources. Whatever field uniform is mentioned, the cost to cadets is still in the $150 dollar range. If you want everyone in BBDU's the cost to seniors is about $100, but to cadets that require two sets for many activities including encampments, it comes to $150. So chances are you will never get everyone into the same field uniform or any other CAP authorized uniform.

[Earhart1971]

And what is the cost to cadets for the pickle suit? There are still BDUs floating around from AFROTC and other sources free for cadets. By the time the ABU is authorized, if it is, there should be a supply of them coming from DRMO or AFROTC sources. Whatever field uniform is mentioned, the cost to cadets is still in the $150 dollar range. If you want everyone in BBDU's the cost to seniors is about $100, but to cadets that require two sets for many activities including encampments, it comes to $150. So chances are you will never get everyone into the same field uniform or any other CAP authorized uniform.

The  issue of Cadets and Uniforms, makes me ill. CAP should demand more Uniform support from the Air Force for the Cadet Program.

AFJROTC and AFROTC get their uniforms in bulk at the beginning of the school year. Cadets entering CAP get them maybe 6 months later WITHOUT SHOES or BOOTS. Blue Uniform only.
I am tired of asking parents to spend upwards to $500 for Uniforms and equipment. AFROTC issues uniforms, and we have several missions in the field with Cadets being used. Why cannot we demand that cadets be issued BDUs. CAPs budget for running a natiionwide cadet program is AWFUL.

[Eclipse]

I am tired of asking parents to spend upwards to $500 for Uniforms and equipment.

Looked into your average hockey team or similar sport lately?

How about summer camp?

[Ned]

The  issue of Cadets and Uniforms, makes me ill. CAP should demand more Uniform support from the Air Force for the Cadet Program.

Why cannot we demand that cadets be issued BDUs. CAPs budget for running a natiionwide cadet program is AWFUL.

What a great idea!  I feel bad for not realizing that all it takes is a simple demand to make this happen.  Genius!

Here is the web page for the CAP-USAF commander, Col Bill Ward.  It has his bio and a "contact me" link on it for you to use to make demands.

Let me know when we can expect a couple of million dollars to fund uniforms for our cadets.

We sure could use it.

Ned Lee
National CP Guy

[lordmonar]

I am tired of asking parents to spend upwards to $500 for Uniforms and equipment.

Looked into your average hockey team or similar sport lately?

How about summer camp?

I paid over $300 for my son's Soccer Kit...and it is planned to change every two years.

$65/month coach's fees
$700 per year team fee
$100 per tournament
$1 per goal

Youth activities are not cheap.  We should be mindful of the costs involved and try our best to limit them...but there are costs with CAP.

[Short Field]

If I'm wrong, show me. Otherwise, I'll continue to believe that people who want to set themselves above the "fat and fuzzies" (not exactly a complimentary description in itself) are jerks that I'd rather not deal with.

I recently sat on a membership board interviewing a former SM member who wanted to rejoin.  He was already wearing his BDUs (with old FO rank and patches) and had attended previous meetings in his Flight Suit with AFROTC patches.  He hadn't been in AFROTC in years nor been a CAP member for years.  He was really hot to start correcting uniform violations among senior and cadet members.  He stated we should be pushing senior members who met H/W standards to wear the AF Style uniforms instead of corporate uniforms because it presented a more professional appearance.  This from a person who failed to advance in either the cadet program or senior program.  Duh.....

[NC Hokie]

Let me know when we can expect a couple of million dollars to fund uniforms for our cadets.

With all due respect, isn't this why there was such a big push for wing banker and the associated unqualified audit?  As a concerned member, I'd really like to what NHQ is doing to secure outside funding for serious needs such as this.

[Earhart1971]

The difference between CAP and Soccer is that we have Cadets performing a mission, and by the way, they are in the Air Force Cadet Program called Civil Air Patrol. Uniforms are provided to a similiar program AFJROTC and AFROTC.

Demands for Money: Guys, I have heard all the arguments before. CAP is so WEAK at recognizing its own value to the Country and the Air Force, we just don't have the goals or resolve to ask for anything. And now we can use the economy for an additional excuse also. Its a National CAP inferiority COMPLEX, its been going on for years. It is stuck in our minds, hey we dont deserve the same support as say AFJROTC or AFROTC.

AFJROTC is funded for one mission - a Cadet Program - their Cadet Program runs on 60 million per year. CAP and its Cadet Program runs on 2 Million maybe.

[Eclipse]

The difference between CAP and Soccer is that we have Cadets performing a mission...

Nope - some cadets participate in ES, however it is an optional part of the program not even included in the base curriculum.
The number of cadets never involved in ES far exceeds those who are, and the ones who ever actually participate in a real mission, is,
sadly, quite low in relation to the total cadre.

and by the way, they are in the Air Force Cadet Program called Civil Air Patrol.

Civil Air Patrol is not the "Air Force Cadet Program" - that would most certainly be J/ROTC or the USAFA, depending on your view, which are both programs supported and staffed directly by military personnel, with ROTC there is certainly some expectation of professional service.  ROTC is a recruiting program for the USAF, CAP is not.

Uniforms are provided to a similiar program AFJROTC and AFROTC.

Last I checked the USAF was providing most of the basic required uniform to our cadets.

[wuzafuzz]

Demand?  I don't think so.

Is it written anywhere that the Air Force requires CAP to wear Air Force style uniforms?  We are permitted to wear them, but that's where it stops.  I'll wager if we moved everyone to polo shirts today the Air Force would be just fine with it.  I certainly don't see the foundation for us to demand they do anything.

Does any cadet program outside J-ROTC actually pay for member uniforms?  Sea Cadets?  Army Cadets? Young Marines? Scouting? Explorers?

[Earhart1971]

AFJROTC pays for the entire setup, Shoes, and entire Blue Uniform, I estimate all that at about $140 per Cadet.

Whether CAP Cadets are in ES does not matter. AFJROTC has no ES Mission, they get uniforms FREE, they also don't have the dues expense. 

Comparing Apples to Apples, Congress favors AFJROTC in funding.

I think we should try and close the gap.

[Earhart1971]

Demand?  I don't think so.

Is it written anywhere that the Air Force requires CAP to wear Air Force style uniforms?  We are permitted to wear them, but that's where it stops.  I'll wager if we moved everyone to polo shirts today the Air Force would be just fine with it.  I certainly don't see the foundation for us to demand they do anything.

Does any cadet program outside J-ROTC actually pay for member uniforms?  Sea Cadets?  Army Cadets? Young Marines? Scouting? Explorers?

The Organizations you mention don't save the Taxpayers any money on Missions performed.

[wuzafuzz]

AFJROTC pays for the entire setup, Shoes, and entire Blue Uniform, I estimate all that at about $140 per Cadet.

Whether CAP Cadets are in ES does not matter. AFJROTC has no ES Mission, they get uniforms FREE, they also don't have the dues expense. 

Comparing Apples to Apples, Congress favors AFJROTC in funding.

I think we should try and close the gap.

Sure, go for it.  But don't demand anything.  We could save the taxpayers money while wearing civilian clothing.  I'm not suggesting we should go there, only that we aren't in a position to demand anything.  Ask nicely.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think one of the biggest problems with the "polos-only mindset" is that there is not a way to know you are encountering a senior officer and thus rendering a salute.

Yes, cadets know that they salute any "senior" member, though I'm not sure about the relatively few SNCO's we have, if they just call them by grade ("Good afternoon, Sergeant") so that's not so much an issue for them.

But for "seniors," unless you know the person and their grade, it's not possible to know if they're just wearing a polo and grey slacks.

Yes, it can be said that it's never improper to salute, and I agree.  However, I have run across isolated instances where I've saluted another member not displaying grade who is junior in grade to me and usually the response has been something like "Captain, you outrank me, why are you saluting me?"

That being said, one pleasant experience I had at an airshow as a first looie was when an AFRES first looie saluted me.  I returned the salute and said, "you're not required to salute me, even if I outranked you, which I don't."  He said "I know, just recognising a fellow officer."

As much as I dislike the white/grey combination, at least it shows the member's grade.

[Ned]

With all due respect, isn't this why there was such a big push for wing banker and the associated unqualified audit? 

Umm, no, not really. 

It is important to have an "unqualified" audit to show that we are good custodians of appropriated dollars, but there was never any suggestion that we would get increased CP funding as a result.  Most of the previous problems related to mixing appropriated maintenance dollars with corporate dollars/local funds at the squadron level.  We can now easily track what is what.

As a concerned member, I'd really like to what NHQ is doing to secure outside funding for serious needs such as this.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "outside" funding, but assuming for a moment you are talking about increased appropriations for cadet uniforms, let me tell you what I have done.

I have met personally within the last two weeks with the Air Force field-grade officer on the Air Staff who is responsible for our POM, and emphasized the very points that you and others have been making.  What a great deal we are compared to JROTC, etc.

The officer certainly agreed, but pointed out some sobering realities - the USAF budget is being cut, it is not growing.  Any additional money for CAP would have to come out of another USAF program in an era of shrinking budgets, and there are a lot of sharp knives out there seeking to cut other people's budgets.  It's easy to say that a couple of million dollars in the USAF budget is almost unmeasurable (which is certainly true), but it another thing entirely to find someone else willing to transfer that "small" of an amount out of their own budget into ours.

It may be a huge victory to keep our appropriated budged for CP at the current level, let alone grow it.

And she also gave me to understand that AFJROTC's budget is being cut - and cut severly.  There is even some talk of eliminating it altogether, precisely because it is fairly expensive when compared to  . . . oh, say . . . us.  Now is not a good time to try to hitch our wagon to JROTC's.  They may well want to hitch theirs to ours.

We continue to work hard on our own Free Cadet Uniform program, and although glitches occasionally happen, it is working fairly well.  Of course, units out there are very resourceful and a large number of cadets receive free uniforms through other sources like excess ROTC uniforms or through DRMO.  Thank Goodness we have a lot of terrific CP officers out there watching out for our cadets.

[Earhart1971]

Ned, good luck working with the Air Force, unfortunately they are in Budget straights too.
Asking the Air Force for money or more funding will not work.  We are two fisherman on the same lake in different boats.

The Civil Air Patrol needs to go direct to Congress. We have a Congressional Squadron. I have not been able to figure out with a Congressional Squadron and Congressional Members of CAP, why, the extreme differences in funding between AFROTC and the CAP Cadet Program exists.

AFJROTC expands units every year, and has appropriate funding and funding increases appropriate to the addition of new school unts, while CAP fights for Status Quo.

We have Cadets that span 6th Grade to College, active in the Cadet Program, that are head and shoulders above the quality of the AFJROTC Program.  CAP Cadets are 4 times more likely to graduate the Air Force Academy than a kid off the street, thats goes in the AFA.

[DakRadz]

AFJROTC is the cadet/youth/whatever program of the Air Force which is required by Congress or law or....


AFJROTC completes a requirement the USAF has to fill. I need to find the reference to why it is required. But I will.

HA! From the Holms Center website-
"The National Defense Act of 1916 authorized a junior course for non-college military schools, high schools and other non-preparatory schools. The Army implemented JROTC in 1916. Public Law 88-647, commonly known as the ROTC Vitalization Act of 1964, directed the secretaries of each military service to establish and maintain JROTC units for their respective services. The first Air Force JROTC programs were opened in 1966."

So that's why. Congressional mandate of higher power.


I completely disagree with your statement about CAP cadets vs. JROTC for a multitude of reasons.

Big one- on this very board, members have stated those with "financial difficulties/situations" shouldn't be worrying about joining CAP. JROTC isn't nearly as exclusive. More cadets I know have had there lives turned around by JROTC rather than CAP. And many more, but that's so far OT and I don't want to be disrespectful.
Even though my leadership qualities came from JROTC first...

[Earhart1971]

Like the GodFather said in the Godfather Part 1. Since the interests of AFJROTC and the interests of CAP are seperate, I wish the best to AFJROTC. CAP has a mandate too from Congress. CAP needs to interact with Congress not the Air Force.

[DakRadz]

I'm just throwing that out there.

P.S.- USNSCC (Sea Cadets) are the USCG's alternative to a JROTC program. It's their youth program. So that's why they get so much realistic-ish for cadets training.

CAP doesn't fall under the "you must have this" category.

You also forget an important factor- JROTC is retired military personnel, mandatory. CAP- you could end up with lordmonar (I just know he's retired, first example I can think of) teaching cadets. Retired, vetted through CAP separately to get where he's at, probably going to do an outstanding job, eh?

Or, you could get TP... Roy Hoydan (mispelled! )... Or a multitude of others teaching cadets.

I'm not saying CAP members can't do it without prior experience (my DCC is AWESOME and a great leader, no mil service)- but the fact that they don't necessarily have that experience will cause doubts in higher-ups minds.
And one bad apple can get the barrel thrown away.

[Patterson]

As a taxpayer, I would say cut the JROTC programs.  They offer no real benefit to the American Taxpayer.  CAP at least can use Cadets to carry out the other two missions that benefit the American Taxpayer.

See my point?

JROTC when it was a source of Trained Cadets ready for a Commission in the Army was very much needed.  It is no longer needed, very expensive and growing out of favor with many school districts and states. 

[tsrup]

As a taxpayer, I would say cut the JROTC programs.  They offer no real benefit to the American Taxpayer.  CAP at least can use Cadets to carry out the other two missions that benefit the American Taxpayer.

See my point?

JROTC when it was a source of Trained Cadets ready for a Commission in the Army was very much needed.  It is no longer needed, very expensive and growing out of favor with many school districts and states.

spoken like someone who was never in JROTC.

JROTC with its benefits in Active Duty is a very large recruiting tool for the DOD.  Its program does many of the same functions of CAP's cadet programs without the Come And Pay aspect.  It has a very positive influence on those who are a part of the program, even if military service isn't their goal.

[Patterson]

You also forget an important factor- JROTC is retired military personnel, mandatory. CAP- you could end up with lordmonar (I just know he's retired, first example I can think of) teaching cadets. Retired, vetted through CAP separately to get where he's at, probably going to do an outstanding job, eh?

Or, you could get TP... Roy Hoydan (mispelled! )... Or a multitude of others teaching cadets.

I'm not saying CAP members can't do it without prior experience (my DCC is AWESOME and a great leader, no mil service)- but the fact that they don't necessarily have that experience will cause doubts in higher-ups minds.
And one bad apple can get the barrel thrown away.

So false on so many levels it made me want to reply.  However I doubt anything I or anyone else types will change your bias toward JROTC.

Just know that it will go away long before CAP goes away. 

[Patterson]

spoken like someone who was never in JROTC.

JROTC with its benefits in Active Duty is a very large recruiting tool for the DOD.  Its program does many of the same functions of CAP's cadet programs without the Come And Pay aspect.  It has a very positive influence on those who are a part of the program, even if military service isn't their goal.

Seriously??  Do you understand how the JROTC Program works other than from the Cadet side?  Have you actually taken the time to investigate it at all?  Us working folk are paying your membership dues in JROTC as we sit here.  We have been since 1916.  Do you think that retired military Officer or NCO works for free?  Who do you think pays that person??  Please look at how much the line item for the CAP Cadet Program is compared to the line item for the JROTC Programs. 

You first countered my argument with the recruiting aspect of the JROTC Progam.  Ok, I can understand that.  Can you tell me how many former JROTC Cadets are currently on Active Duty?  I can!!  Then you rounded out your response with the antithesis of your first statement.  "It has a very positive influence on those who are a part of the program, even if military service isn't their goal".  (You can not do that when writing counterarguments, just saying..)  So, what are the positive influence factors on JROTC Cadets that do not go into the military??  Name a few......I will even give you a few;
1) They know how to read a military map (only Army and Marine JROTC Cadets though, Air Force does not teach that in the current textbooks)
2) They understand how the US Political System Works (that should have been your first response)

You see, JROTC is sold to the Congress as a "Civics Course".  You would know this if you looked it up.  In absolute reality, that is all it is.  It is a civics and humanities course covered up behind the uniform of your retired military NCO or Officer. 

What do JROTC Cadets do really?  What is the mission of JROTC?  When you answer these questions without giving the "boilerplate lines" found on their websites, you will be surprised. 

In the end the CAP has two missions beyond the Cadet Program mission.  We could possibly survive if we got rid of our Cadets.  We started out without Cadets....   Context and knowledge of a topic is important when addressing it on a forum.  When ever you start your counterargument with trying to dispel a persons knowledge by saying he or she has no idea what they are talking about because they "are not part of it" is known as the "bluff critique".  You try to get me to stay away from furthering my argument and leaving your post standing so others will believe yours is true by bluffing that you know more than I do on the off chance that I am not prepared enough to continue.

The Internet is a wonderful place.  You never know who you will run into.  For all you know I could be the the assistant to the undersecretary of defense for flower procurement and JROTC poster making.  Just saying........... 

[tsrup]

I know exactly who pays the instructors salaries for JROTC, and quite frankly Id rather pay them. I think they are more effective than the whole idea of the "No child left behind" act. 

If all you think that is taught in JROTC is map reading and uniform wear then you are grossly missing the forest for view of the trees. 

The JROTC mission is to "motivate young adults to become better citizens".  This mission is accomplished by setting a benevolent military environment that encourages the development of leadership and values such as integrity, ethical courage, and responsibility.  These are no one else words but my own, and they are my own personal beliefs based on my experience in the program. 

The structure and syllabus that is in a high school JROTC program is what sets it apart from the CAP cadet programs, that is why it gets the money, that is why the Armed Forces allow for advance grade depending on how many years you spend in the program.

We can argue the fact "which is better CAP or JROTC" till we're all red in the face, that's not my intent.  My intent is to counter that JROTC serves no purpose which is undoubtedly false. 

You think that an organization that values the development of cadets would find value in organizations that do accomplish the same mission.

As to the alleged counterpoint to my own argument, I was merely acknowledging the fact that JROTC is not a 100% feeder for the military and that those that do not join the service do benefit. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Even though my experience with JROTC is nil, except for being in a squadron that had a few dual-membership cadets, I have to side with the JROTC advocates, at least in the view of the Air Force.

The AF personnel who I have heard express an opinion (including at least one MTI) come down on the side of JROTC.

As I have lamented before, many, many AF people do not even know who we are.

So, when the money for funding uniforms comes down, guess who is the favoured child?

[Patterson]

I know exactly who pays the instructors salaries for JROTC, and quite frankly Id rather pay them. I think they are more effective than the whole idea of the "No child left behind" act. 

If all you think that is taught in JROTC is map reading and uniform wear then you are grossly missing the forest for view of the trees. 


The structure and syllabus that is in a high school JROTC program is what sets it apart from the CAP cadet programs, that is why it gets the money, that is why the Armed Forces allow for advance grade depending on how many years you spend in the program.

We can argue the fact "which is better CAP or JROTC" till we're all red in the face, that's not my intent.  My intent is to counter that JROTC serves no purpose which is undoubtedly false. 

You think that an organization that values the development of cadets would find value in organizations that do accomplish the same mission.

As to the alleged counterpoint to my own argument, I was merely acknowledging the fact that JROTC is not a 100% feeder for the military and that those that do not join the service do benefit.

You answered no questions I posed to you you.

You do understand that CAP Cadets were first to receive advanced grade if they decided to enlist right?  Did you know the Air Force "borrowed" the CAP Cadet Leadership and Aerospace curriculum and slapped a different cover on it?  Do you think the majority of the JROTC Instructors served in a relevant career field when compared to what they are actually teaching??

Are you even familiar with the CAP Cadet program at all?!?!  you see you wrote...."by setting a benevolent military environment that encourages the development of leadership and values such as integrity, ethical courage, and responsibility"
  That seems to be the CAP Cadet Program as well.  Except we add a few more factors that set the two programs apart.

You are right though.....we will never agree on which program is better.  No one could.  We are all biased, but you proved a point I wanted to make, that most people will counter arguments or differing opinions with beliefs instead of FACTS.

So, when you get a chance explore the answers to the questions I asked you before.  It may shift your position. 

[Eclipse]

Comparing JROTC with CAP does neither a service - they are different programs with different goals and missions.  The fact that the participants "kinda look the same" notwithstanding.   

Suggesting CAP needs to do a better job in getting their value understood by Congress is a valid point - suggesting that we increase our funding at the expense of another worthwhile program is incredibly counterproductive, arrogant, and potentially harmful to CAP.

[tsrup]

You answered no questions I posed to you you.

I shall now try to answer all of them.

You do understand that CAP Cadets were first to receive advanced grade if they decided to enlist right? 

I learned something new.  You get one.

Did you know the Air Force "borrowed" the CAP Cadet Leadership and Aerospace curriculum and slapped a different cover on it? 

Yes

Do you think the majority of the JROTC Instructors served in a relevant career field when compared to what they are actually teaching??

The same could be said about a mcdonalds employee who becomes a senior member in CAP.

Are you even familiar with the CAP Cadet program at all?!?!

Hmmm... being a current DCC and being senior rated in CP just coming back from serving as a Deputy Commandant at encampment.. leads me to: 

Seriously??

very

  Do you understand how the JROTC Program works other than from the Cadet side?

yes

  Have you actually taken the time to investigate it at all?

yes

Us working folk are paying your membership dues in JROTC as we sit here.  We have been since 1916.  Do you think that retired military Officer or NCO works for free?

Of course not

Who do you think pays that person??

DFAS

Please look at how much the line item for the CAP Cadet Program is compared to the line item for the JROTC Programs. 

You first countered my argument with the recruiting aspect of the JROTC Progam.  Ok, I can understand that.  Can you tell me how many former JROTC Cadets are currently on Active Duty? 

No, I cannot, but would love for you to share it.

I can!!  Then you rounded out your response with the antithesis of your first statement.  "It has a very positive influence on those who are a part of the program, even if military service isn't their goal".  (You can not do that when writing counterarguments, just saying..)  So, what are the positive influence factors on JROTC Cadets that do not go into the military??

I did actually answer this one.

  Name a few......I will even give you a few;
1) They know how to read a military map (only Army and Marine JROTC Cadets though, Air Force does not teach that in the current textbooks)
2) They understand how the US Political System Works (that should have been your first response)

You see, JROTC is sold to the Congress as a "Civics Course".  You would know this if you looked it up.  In absolute reality, that is all it is.  It is a civics and humanities course covered up behind the uniform of your retired military NCO or Officer. 

What do JROTC Cadets do really?  What is the mission of JROTC?  When you answer these questions without giving the "boilerplate lines" found on their websites, you will be surprised.

and I answered these already too.

In the end the CAP has two missions beyond the Cadet Program mission.  We could possibly survive if we got rid of our Cadets.  We started out without Cadets....   Context and knowledge of a topic is important when addressing it on a forum.  When ever you start your counterargument with trying to dispel a persons knowledge by saying he or she has no idea what they are talking about because they "are not part of it" is known as the "bluff critique".  You try to get me to stay away from furthering my argument and leaving your post standing so others will believe yours is true by bluffing that you know more than I do on the off chance that I am not prepared enough to continue.

The Internet is a wonderful place.  You never know who you will run into.  For all you know I could be the the assistant to the undersecretary of defense for flower procurement and JROTC poster making.  Just saying...........

So own up to your identity.  You cant hide behind anonymity then complain that everyone doesn't know your credentials.

[DakRadz]

Who do you think pays that person??

DFAS

Hmm... Just to expound a bit.
Since they are all receiving retired pay already, the cost is only to the school system in which they work. The school system pays half of their AD pay (or equal to retirement pay) plus provides benefits- the benefits for working are what gives the school system authority over Instructors as teachers- as opposed to them working for Holms Center/USAF/organization-of-choice. (Since the paychecks are equal)

It's a second job for those retired. US still pays them their retirement and they receive a second paycheck. The school system receives all this information when they are looking to get a unit.
If you have a local unit and you are a taxpayer- yes, you help pay for the JROTC instructors teacher-equivalent school-provided salary. Better JROTC than Basket-Weaving Class Specialist...

JROTC instructors aren't exactly draining the system dry- they get the equivalent of AD pay.
My father gets 150K for his new contractor job, yet still receives $40K~ in retirement. The JROTC instructors I've known can/could all have moved on to a better job- they prefer teaching young students and helping them.

[wuzafuzz]

So how about those BDU's? 

Plain green BDU's sounds OK to me. I still have my old OD field jacket with a CAWG patch on it  . I actually preferred the old get up because we had shirts that tuck into the britches!