Beret confusion

[Hawk200]

Military training that awards a beret tends to be pretty in depth and requires a great deal.

Completion of US Army Basic Training awards the Black Beret.

Yep, and it's nine weeks long. It's the most basic course that awards a beret. And it's a basis for everything else in a soldier's career, a beginning not an end. CAP members are getting a beanie for what, a week long activity? Finish a week, it's over, here's a fancy hat.

I've actually run into CAP members with their berets that think that they've accomplished more than a soldier did out of boot camp. They put themselves on the same level as Army Airborne/Rangers, and Air Force Pararescue/Combat Control. I'm not kidding, I've actually seen this attitude. And I find it disturbing.

Many of our members seem to think that they're "peers" of the military personnel that receive them, and that's a part of the problem.

It is just part of the eternal search for bling that looks cool and most other people do not have.

Agreed. If you've done something to get the bling that I'm not capable of, I can respect that. But if it's something I can do, but haven't gotten around to or just not interested in, it's not really worth much to me.

[lordmonar]

I doubt you met many special forces dudes who joined 'for the beret.' Also, the fact of the matter is that there was never a regulation upgrade or ICL about the beret or Hawk Mountain stuff or whatever. Unless I'm mistaken, all of that stuff came down during the regime of a certain national commander who may or may not of been trying to consolidate his power.

Got to throw the BS flag on this one....I remember the heart burn that the Rangers had when Shinseki (sp?) gave everyone in the army a beret.  The rangers went bullistics that the "lost" their distinctive head gear.

Eventually the moved to the tan beret.

Yes no one is or should be joining a unit or doing an acitivity (CAP or Real Military) just for the hat.........but it is a symbol of their distinctiveness and pride and they will defend it.

Symbols are important.....How would the marines react if someone tried to take away their monster blues or if we tried to pry USAF pilots out of their flight suits, or took away the Special Forces Green Beret?

They would hem and haw and cry foul to high heaven!


On the CAP side.....no matter what you personally feel about it.......just ignore it.  The award the beret and the NB sort of authorised it.   If Cadet snuffy shows up in your unit after NBB sporting his beret....tell him to take it off.  Local commanders have the authority to determine what head gear their people will wear (within certain parameters ).

The cadet Dad2-4 encountered...did the right thing....(except he was disrepectful).  The DCC said no the CC said yes....and the regs are not clear.

What's the problem?

Dad2-4 is bent out of shape because his authority was undermined by the CC....but that happen all the time with confusing orders and regulations.

Just because the NB said they are authorised....does not mean they are manditory.  Squadron CC's still have a lot of authority about how to wear the uniform.

T-shirt color, patches on, patches off.  Head gear.

It is a simple fix and nothing to get bent out of shape over.  Don't take away a tool that some other unit or activity findes useful for getting their mission done, simply because you don't like it. 

[wuzafuzz]

I say we abolish all berets in CAP.  No use for them.  Regardless of what the military does, CAP doesnt need to be giving out berets for cadets finishing a 5 day, adult guarded whatever activity...  Give me a break.

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[High Speed Low Drag]

There is much opinion out there.

I went to Blue Beret (called National Special Service Corps at the time) in 1985 (India Flight); did 7 days at Volk Field, then convoy to Oshkosh where did 8 days (Total of 15 days).  It was tough (for the cadet program) at the time.  Cadre would come in for a 2am PT session, Got dropped for push ups on a regular basis, etc, etc, etc.  Upon completion, could wear the blue beret with the pickle uniform, had a blue shoulder cord for the blues.  I was out of CAP for 20 years, but I still kept the St. Alban's Cross and my original beret.  The skills I learned there (self-reliance, self-motivation) helped get me though fire academy and two police academies.  (Current Blue Beret is 14 days.)

Is there a correlation between Blue Beret and military beret – no.  Should there be – no.  However, in both cases, the beret (or special bling) represents the accomplishment of a feat of some type.  I would argue that any of the special  military berets awarded are not to recognize the completion of training, but rather to recognize that the person had the internal willingness and strength of character to complete said training.  I don't have a problem with "elite" units in the military, like some do.  I believe that while these units do make a contribution to the overall mission, their existence has a secondary purpose that is far greater than their special purpose – that is motivation.  Many, many, many soldiers, airmen, marines, and sailors have been motivated to work very hard to be selected for an elite unit.  Far more than are actually selected, but every last one of them has made a greater contribution to their home unit as a direct result of their striving for the elite unit.

In CAP, the people that attend BB, Hawk Mountain, Cadet Survival School, PJOC, etc, are typically more highly motivated to work harder, to strive for personal betterment, and, in turn, that makes for better home units.  Can we compare Blue Beret or Hawk Mountain or PJOC   to   Special Warfare or SEALS or Recon?  No.  But then you don't see and 13, 14, 15 year olds going through those either.  To me, when I went to BB, it was an experience because I made it through – I was proud.  To me, it was if I (15 at the time) had gone through my own version of special school.  I wasn't the 25-28 year old that was trying out for SOF, I didn't have that decade of experience.  Is it the same – no.  But, put it in the context of what it is (a harder-than-normal activity for YOUTH) and it is still special.  In my mind, I think there should be berets awarded at other activities – NESA, PJOC, Hawk (jsut off top of my head - not saying there aren't a couple of other schools out there that shouldn't have them).  These are truly the more demanding of NCSAs. And remember - these are kids.  What is not all that hard to us can be very difficult for them. 

Again, can we say they are the same as military – NO.  But to the cadet, they still represent something that is special to them.  And for THAT reason, we should keep them.  That beret, or bling, might be the reason a cadet went to that activity where they learned the self skills that enabled them to later earn the "real" one.     

[wuzafuzz]

Our reputation would benefit from consistent and proper wear of a basic bling-free uniform.  Limit the shiny stuff to drill teams and color guards (only while performing those duties) and we'd look a lot better IMHO.  Recruiting will benefit more from having our act together than from a pile of excessive blingage.

[High Speed Low Drag]

Our reputation would benefit from consistent and proper wear of a basic bling-free uniform.  Limit the shiny stuff to drill teams and color guards (only while performing those duties) and we'd look a lot better IMHO.  Recruiting will benefit more from having our act together than from a pile of excessive blingage.

Are you thinking like a common-sense senior member or are you thinking like a teenage cadet?

[wuzafuzz]

Our reputation would benefit from consistent and proper wear of a basic bling-free uniform.  Limit the shiny stuff to drill teams and color guards (only while performing those duties) and we'd look a lot better IMHO.  Recruiting will benefit more from having our act together than from a pile of excessive blingage.

Are you thinking like a common-sense senior member or are you thinking like a teenage cadet?

Both. 

I was a Naval Sea cadet and a police explorer during my teenage years.  My training for both was quite a bit more challenging than what most CAP cadets endure.  In both organizations we were proud of our accomplishments; rightly so for our age.  Our police explorer uniforms were significantly less flashy than the real cops, and their unforms were fairly utilitarian.  Our Sea Cadet uniforms were the equal of your everyday sailor (excepting the obvious NSCC emblems).  Both were great youth programs that didn't need to go off the reservation to keep teens engaged.

We should be conscious of comparisons to military berets because we are wearing a military uniform.  As with our grade insignia there might not be a direct correlation to the military, but comparisons are inevitable and we should be careful of the image we are cultivating.

[Eclipse]

In CAP, the people that attend BB, Hawk Mountain, Cadet Survival School, PJOC, etc, are typically more highly motivated to work harder, to strive for personal betterment, and, in turn, that makes for better home units.  Can we compare Blue Beret or Hawk Mountain or PJOC   to   Special Warfare or SEALS or Recon?  No.  But then you don't see and 13, 14, 15 year olds going through those either.  To me, when I went to BB, it was an experience because I made it through – I was proud.  To me, it was if I (15 at the time) had gone through my own version of special school.  I wasn't the 25-28 year old that was trying out for SOF, I didn't have that decade of experience.  Is it the same – no.  But, put it in the context of what it is (a harder-than-normal activity for YOUTH) and it is still special.  In my mind, I think there should be berets awarded at other activities – NESA, PJOC, Hawk (jsut off top of my head - not saying there aren't a couple of other schools out there that shouldn't have them).  These are truly the more demanding of NCSAs. And remember - these are kids.  What is not all that hard to us can be very difficult for them.

Why is it always assumed that only cadets wear the berets?  Haven't you guys seen seniors in your AOR walking around with a blue pancake?

NBB is an airshow, period.  Internally and in marketing we assert that we have a large role, but when you talk to the people that actually run the activity, our role does not appear to be nearly what we think it is, or what it probably was 20 years ago.  It also causes headaches for the local squadron up there thanks to the attitudinal issues of some of the transient members that come by for a few weeks each year and think they own the joint.

I've mentioned before that the National Geographic special on OshKosh from 2007 covers the entire activity end to end, literally from empty field start to empty field end, with everybody from the food vendors to ATC represented, and CAP isn't mentioned or sighted once.   Not once, not even in the crowds - hardly a key partner.

Try finding our name or logo on the Airventure website without using search - plenty of volunteers, not much about CAP.

At least NESA and HMRS train-up members in ES skills, which is the nearest (grand-canyon-wise) that CAP gets to anything remotely "hard".

I'd be less reticent of the beret if there was more consistency and sense behind its award, but today it is a shell of what it was when the activity was run in IAWG.  It represents participation, that's all.

I don't know if its worth the text to try and debate whether members who go to NBB are "more" motivated than anyone else - I am personally not a fan of the whole idea, period.  I frankly think airshows are a huge waste of time, money, and fuel, and at much too high a safety risk.  This isn't the 20's when people haven't seen an airplane before - air travel has (sadly) become simply a mode of transport, in a lot of cases not even preferable to driving or other methods (thanks to terrorism, the economy, etc).

What EAA says to me every year is a bunch of members will be out of the loop for 2+ weeks, especially pilots, and we'll see another wave of arguments over a hat.

And with all those mashed potatoes sitting on the plate above, this entire conversation is gone in one or two paragraphs from NHQ, whatever the decision, yet for some reason they have chosen to let this sit on the table for 4+ years, with no indication it will be addressed any time soon, if ever.

[lordmonar]

So the argument ranges everywhere from "The activity is not significant enough to rate a beret" to "I just think they look stupid" to "The USAF MAY have heart burn over it" through the  silent majority all the way to my side "deal with it locally but don't mess with the other guys tools".

They are all good arguments in one way or the other.

Bottom line....depending on your interpetation of the regs and NB's intent.....the beret is authorised as a permanant award.  Local commanders (IMHO) have the option to control it or not as they see fit.

Beyond that it all up to individual opinion about the stupid hat.
Untill or unless National gives us better guidance we got what we got.

[MSG Mac]

When I was the MAWG Director of Personnel, The Wing regularly got requests from squadrons to authorize the beret. The response was always the same: NO
The reasons for denial were:
1. Too expensive individual purchase
2. Doesn't provide any protection from the elements
3. The wool holds in heat
4. We already had several types of authorized headgear.
5. Only benefit was as an emergency hygiene product, and than only once.

[EMT-83]

Did the conversation end with...

"I'll get it back to you when I'm done with it"

"That's okay, you can keep it."

[lordmonar]

When I was the MAWG Director of Personnel, The Wing regularly got requests from squadrons to authorize the beret. The response was always the same: NO
The reasons for denial were:
1. Too expensive individual purchase
2. Doesn't provide any protection from the elements
3. The wool holds in heat
4. We already had several types of authorized headgear.
5. Only benefit was as an emergency hygiene product, and than only once.

1.  Let that be the look out for the units/group wanting it. 
2.  How does a flight cap offer better protection...and if protection from the elements is such a high concern why not authorise the boonie hat?
3. Yes it does......so what?
4. Yes we do....but none of the offer the distinctiveness to help with the objectives of the unit asking authorisation.
5. As a survival tool the beret hold water better then the BDU or Baseball Cap, provides better heat insulation than either of them and continues to maintain its insulation properties even if wet.

What you really mean to say is that "I don't like berets and I was just looking for excuses to keep you from having one".

Sorry you just touched one of my button here.

Wing has the authority to say yea or nay.....I accept that.  If you just don't like them....then say so.  "No...they look silly", end of story.

[Eclipse]

Wing has the authority to say yea or nay...

Many of us have argued they do not, but we've all been there before...

[lordmonar]

Wing has the authority to say yea or nay...

Many of us have argued they do not, but we've all been there before...

I don't know how you can say that it is right there in 39-1. Table 1-3 Line 4.

I don't know how much more black and white you can get than that.

[Eclipse]

You really want to walk here again?

Wing CC's do not have the authority to allow for uniform items not in the national "kit" - berets are not, ergo...

Berets are not ballcaps, are held out as a special item for a reason, and do not fall into the headgear optional area.

[lordmonar]

You really want to walk here again?

Wing CC's do not have the authority to allow for uniform items not in the national "kit" - berets are not, ergo...

Berets are not ballcaps, are held out as a special item for a reason, and do not fall into the headgear optional area.

What national "kit" are you talking about?

[Eclipse]

Those items which have been approved for wear at the national level.

Berets, for example, have not, or they have.  Depends.

[Dad2-4]

I don't know how you can say that it is right there in 39-1. Table 1-3 Line 4.

I don't know how much more black and white you can get than that.

Yes, in black and white it says, "Berets provided at special activities may be worn at the activity ONLY."
So the cadet that refused to remove it was wrong and disrespectful. I won't go into the cadets history of insubordination. To clarify, he was wearing his blue service uniform at the time, and it was before the 2006 ammendment. As far as I can read in 39-1, the squadron CC didn't have the authority to authorize the cadets wear of the beret.

[lordmonar]

Those items which have been approved for wear at the national level.

Berets, for example, have not, or they have.  Depends.

It is in 39-1...they have been approved by both national and the USAF.

The only thing that is in question is whether the NBB beret is approved for wear outside of the activity as spelled out in table 1-3 line 4.

But it is perfectly clear that if the wing CC with regional approval and National coordination (as spelled out in 39-1) approves blue berets for local color guards (a special purpose) or to designate Ground Team members (A special purpose) he can do so.  He can't approve them for everyone in the Homer J. Simpson Composite Squadron (A general purpose) or everyone in his wing (a general purpose).

The argument about the binding or non binding of NB decisions is very gray....and not what I am talking about.

[JK657]

As someone who wears a beret daily, let me just say that they aren't all they are cracked up to be. The beret has been water downed to the point of where its lost its impact. In the old days, if you saw a beret you knew you were dealing with a warrior. It was a person who had achieved something that very few ever could or would do. Now everybody and their mom is wearing one.

My other issue with the beret is how people wear it. A properly fitted beret takes time to shape, shave and perfect. Often people don't put the proper time and they end up looking like a chef.