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When are Cadets, Cadets?

Started by Krapenhoeffer, July 07, 2010, 02:55:48 AM

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Do cadets retain all their cadetyness when away from CAP activities and out of uniform?

Yes. Cadets are Cadets 24/7
43 (59.7%)
No. Cadets are only Cadets when representing CAP
23 (31.9%)
Other (will comment below)
6 (8.3%)

Total Members Voted: 72

Krapenhoeffer

The question, and the issue I bring up here is Cadet/Senior relations, away from CAP.

Now, my original understanding when I was a cadet was that I was a cadet only when I was representing CAP in some fashion. I mean, there were a few cadets whose parents were senior members, so there had to be a line when I stopped being a complete cadet.

Regrettably, it was this very issue that forced me to adopt my gray shoulder boards and nameplate at 18. A few years ago, I was having a discussion on Facebook regarding political issues with some of my high school friends. A Captain that added me as a friend immediately jumped into the conversation, and his comment was tantamount to accusing myself of being Anti-American. Taking huge offense, I replied, addressing him as "Mr. <name>." He dodged the issue and proceeded to chastise me for not addressing him as Captain. The next meeting, I was questioned about it by my commander. In frustruration, I returned next week with a CAPF12 filled out and on my commander's desk, along with my cadet grade insignia.

Now, I'm glad that until I hit 21, I'm just Mr. Krapenhoeffer in any CAP-related situation. Now, I personally believe that out of uniform, and away from CAP, cadets should treat their senior members with the same respect they would show their good teachers at school. I also believe that senior members should not be addressed by their CAP grade when away from CAP-related activities. I mean, except for Col and above, our grade as senior members only reflects our progression within the Professional Development program, and carries no authority with it. We are not "real" officers, and are only afforded the privilege of military grade insignia. Everyone has to agree that CAP does not define one's life, unlike military service, which does.
Proud founding member of the Fellowship of the Vuvuzela.
"And now we just take our Classical Mechanics equations, take the derivative, run it through the uncertainty principal, and take the anti-derivative of the resulting mess. Behold! Quantum Wave Equations! Clear as mud cadets?"
"No... You just broke math law, and who said anything about the anti-derivative? You can obtain the Schrödinger wave equations algebraically!" The funniest part was watching the cadets staring at the epic resulting math fight.

EMT-83

Nope.

Cadets will address me as "Captain" and I will address them as "Cadet" regardless of the setting. I've bumped into cadets in public places outside of CAP, and this didn't seem forced or unusual in any way. My son gets a pass on this one; he calls me Dad.  I'm sure he has some more creative nicknames, but not to my face.

I don't socialize with cadets, so this isn't an issue. I have a real life with real friends, so Facebook isn't a problem either.

Майор Хаткевич

I'll be a Cadet 24/7 when SMs are SMs 24/7.

Expecting cadets to be cadets 24/7 is just hypocritical

Eclipse

Quote from: EMT-83 on July 07, 2010, 03:10:30 AM
Nope.

Cadets will address me as "Captain" and I will address them as "Cadet" regardless of the setting. I've bumped into cadets in public places outside of CAP, and this didn't seem forced or unusual in any way. My son gets a pass on this one; he calls me Dad.  I'm sure he has some more creative nicknames, but not to my face.

I don't socialize with cadets, so this isn't an issue. I have a real life with real friends, so Facebook isn't a problem either.

+1

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on July 07, 2010, 03:12:10 AM
I'll be a Cadet 24/7 when SMs are SMs 24/7.

Who said they aren't?

"That Others May Zoom"

RiverAux

In so far as we're only talking about proper forms of address in off-duty, non-uniformed situations, yes cadets should address senior members by their rank or sir/maam as appropriate. 

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on July 07, 2010, 03:15:25 AM
Who said they aren't?

I wasn't aware all SMs gave up smoking and drinking once they joined CAP...

Eclipse

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on July 07, 2010, 03:22:23 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 07, 2010, 03:15:25 AM
Who said they aren't?

I wasn't aware all SMs gave up smoking and drinking once they joined CAP...

Neither is prohibited for senior members above the legal age in their state for those activities.

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on July 07, 2010, 03:24:17 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on July 07, 2010, 03:22:23 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 07, 2010, 03:15:25 AM
Who said they aren't?

I wasn't aware all SMs gave up smoking and drinking once they joined CAP...

Neither is prohibited for senior members above the legal age in their state for those activities.

But it is prohibited at CAP activities when cadets are present.

Airsoft is prohibited in CAP, however many cadets participate outside of CAP

We're not talking illegal behaviors here,  but how people behave in CAP is different from other times.

Krapenhoeffer

And a Cadet will, and should naturally address a senior member in public by their grade (often to the embarrassment of the Senior Member in question ;D ), because that is where cadets and seniors normally interact with each other.

However, there are situations where I feel that is inappropriate for cadets to address senior members by their grade. Anything that is considered "Thou Shalt Not Discuss When in Uniform," is one of those situations.

This, as I see it, is only an issue with the older, and more mature cadets. And my opinions may come from being a not-so-Senior Member.

This is more of an issue with the rise of the internet, and the following death of privacy. Cadet Programs leadership in my squadron have remarked to me that social networking websites are useful because:

A) It is a very quick and easy means of contacting a cadet for CAP business (I'm sorry, but I didn't have my coffee yet when I asked you on Monday, but are you going to the SAREX this weekend?)

B) It can be used to find if drugs are getting into the squadron. I personally have issues with this, and I've seen cadets 2b'd for pictures they've posted on the internet.

Proud founding member of the Fellowship of the Vuvuzela.
"And now we just take our Classical Mechanics equations, take the derivative, run it through the uncertainty principal, and take the anti-derivative of the resulting mess. Behold! Quantum Wave Equations! Clear as mud cadets?"
"No... You just broke math law, and who said anything about the anti-derivative? You can obtain the Schrödinger wave equations algebraically!" The funniest part was watching the cadets staring at the epic resulting math fight.

Eclipse

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on July 07, 2010, 03:28:43 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 07, 2010, 03:24:17 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on July 07, 2010, 03:22:23 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 07, 2010, 03:15:25 AM
Who said they aren't?

I wasn't aware all SMs gave up smoking and drinking once they joined CAP...

Neither is prohibited for senior members above the legal age in their state for those activities.

But it is prohibited at CAP activities when cadets are present.
No, it is not.  Time to brush up on those regs a bit.
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on July 07, 2010, 03:28:43 AM
Airsoft is prohibited in CAP, however many cadets participate outside of CAP

We're not talking illegal behaviors here,  but how people behave in CAP is different from other times.

You're missing the point - being a member 24x7 doesn't mean CAP has a stranglehold on your personal life, nor can it restrict your
activities during times when you are clearly not at a CAP activity, however it does mean you can be held responsible internally
for actions and behavior outside of CAP.  In fact it's clearly stated as such in the regulations.

"That Others May Zoom"

CAPC/officer125

Usually when I associate with SMs outside CAP, we are still talking CAP, so I still call them, at least, Sir or Ma'am. If we aren't, usually I will still a conversation with Sir or Ma'am. It has become habit, especially now that I am a member of wing staff and associate with more senior members then cadets.

I think that if a cadet acts as a cadet during their regular life, it will help when they are in this situation. Calling teachers Sir and Ma'am should be something they do anyway, in answering questions. It is always good to call people by Mr. or Mrs. and their last name. CAP just exchanges that for a rank.

I may just be preaching to the choir and I know that I don't necessarily follow what I preach, but coming this is coming from the heart of a cadet, not the parents of the cadet through the cadets mouth.
C/LtCol Priscilla (Pat) Temaat
Eaker #2228
Earhart #14523
KS-001- KSWG HQ staff
2012 Joint Dakota Cadet Leadership Encampment Cadet Commander

RiverAux

Quote from: RiverAux on July 07, 2010, 03:19:24 AM
In so far as we're only talking about proper forms of address in off-duty, non-uniformed situations, yes cadets should address senior members by their rank or sir/maam as appropriate.
But, I wouldn't freak out if one called me Mr. either. 

Krapenhoeffer

Quote from: Eclipse on July 07, 2010, 03:36:50 AM

You're missing the point - being a member 24x7 doesn't mean CAP has a stranglehold on your personal life, nor can it restrict your
activities during times when you are clearly not at a CAP activity, however it does mean you can be held responsible internally
for actions and behavior outside of CAP.  In fact its clearly stated as such in the regulations.

Cite please!

And I think this lends itself to another question: Do Senior Members need to draw a clearly defined professional line between themselves and cadets?

If that is there, the terms of address stay 24/7. But I feel that if that line is crossed, for anything, the privilege of being addressed by grade is gone.
Proud founding member of the Fellowship of the Vuvuzela.
"And now we just take our Classical Mechanics equations, take the derivative, run it through the uncertainty principal, and take the anti-derivative of the resulting mess. Behold! Quantum Wave Equations! Clear as mud cadets?"
"No... You just broke math law, and who said anything about the anti-derivative? You can obtain the Schrödinger wave equations algebraically!" The funniest part was watching the cadets staring at the epic resulting math fight.

Daniel

I think this question is HIGHLY relative, as it depends on the individual cadet and the situation of the squadron.

For instance I am the only CAP cadet in my school, and am very proud to be in CAP. Once in science class I wasn't being disrespectful or anything; the work was done and I was bored so I started to balance a pencil on my nose, the teacher posed the question of "Is this how you want to represent CAP?" and thats when I learned everything I do from this moment on represents people in my towns opionion of the Civil Air Patrol.
C/Capt Daniel L, CAP
Wright Brothers No. 12670
Mitchell No. 59781
Earhart No. 15416

Ozzy

Cadets are always cadets 24/7.

However, that doesn't mean that they should always address a senior member by rank in all situations. I believe that you did act appropriately because well... you let common courtesy dictate your actions but some people let their pride get a hold of them. I've generally found that the senior members that are a little more relaxed when met away from CAP are the ones that I like better.

Easiest way to keep it appropriate: cadet says Sir/Ma'am, senior calls by last name.
Ozyilmaz, MSgt, CAP
C/Lt. Colonel (Ret.)
NYWG Encampment 07, 08, 09, 10, 17
CTWG Encampment 09, 11, 16
NER Cadet Leadership School 10
GAWG Encampment 18, 19
FLWG Winter Encampment 19

Eclipse

Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on July 07, 2010, 02:55:48 AM
Now, I'm glad that until I hit 21, I'm just Mr. Krapenhoeffer in any CAP-related situation.
No, you are either Flight Officer Krapenhoffer or Senior Member Krapenhoffer, unless you happen to be the only Warrant Officer in CAP, then "Mister" would be appropriate.

Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on July 07, 2010, 02:55:48 AMWe are not "real" officers, and are only afforded the privilege of military grade insignia. Everyone has to agree that CAP does not define one's life, unlike military service, which does.

Your best bet there is to speak only for yourself in that regard.

"That Others May Zoom"

biomed441

Least from my experience as a Cadet, we always addressed seniors by their CAP grade and last name. In most cases we never remembered their first names anyways and were never in a situation where we were in a non CAP environment. Now, as a SM I would say it is proper to address a SM by their CAP grade and last name as well.  If you begin practicing more informal forms of address outside of CAP, you risk that transfering into the CAP arena as well and could present some issues including pushing the line of fraternization. We don't need that in CAP. Now, am I going to flip out of a cadet runs into me at a walmart and doesn't call me Lt? No probably not, but it should at least be a common practice to if nothing else use the proper civilian greeting of sir or ma'am. My 2 cents anyways.

Eclipse

#17
Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on July 07, 2010, 03:41:08 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 07, 2010, 03:36:50 AM

You're missing the point - being a member 24x7 doesn't mean CAP has a stranglehold on your personal life, nor can it restrict your
activities during times when you are clearly not at a CAP activity, however it does mean you can be held responsible internally
for actions and behavior outside of CAP.  In fact its clearly stated as such in the regulations.

Cite please!

Seriously?  Were you actually a cadet?  Are you familiar with the oath, or the fact that you can be suspended for something as simple
as poor grades?   How about being arrested, or denigrating CAP?

Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on July 07, 2010, 03:41:08 AM
Do Senior Members need to draw a clearly defined professional line between themselves and cadets?
Yes, absolutely.  AS stated by Captainbob441, in most cases outside family members, there is little reason for CAP seniors to be hanging around with CAP cadets outside of CAP.  I can tell you from experience that little good comes of it, and lots of bad definitely comes of it, many times resulting in more free time on the weekends for the senior.

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on July 07, 2010, 03:36:50 AM
You're missing the point - being a member 24x7 doesn't mean CAP has a stranglehold on your personal life, nor can it restrict your
activities during times when you are clearly not at a CAP activity, however it does mean you can be held responsible internally
for actions and behavior outside of CAP.  In fact it's clearly stated as such in the regulations.

With which I don't disagree, but clearly I act differently with my friends than with SMs or Cadets at a CAP activity.

As for drinking/smoking while around cadets, beyond the "few drinks" at a banquette, I don't think it's an appropriate behavior for Seniors to do it around cadets. It may not be prohibited, but the regulations I've read have stated that it is discouraged. Further along that line of thinking, cadets are prohibited from smoking at a CAP activity/in uniform, however cadets over the age of 18 may do so when not representing CAP.

Krapenhoeffer

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on July 07, 2010, 03:47:42 AM
With which I don't disagree, but clearly I act differently with my friends than with SMs or Cadets at a CAP activity.

As for drinking/smoking while around cadets, beyond the "few drinks" at a banquette, I don't think it's an appropriate behavior for Seniors to do it around cadets. It may not be prohibited, but the regulations I've read have stated that it is discouraged. Further along that line of thinking, cadets are prohibited from smoking at a CAP activity/in uniform, however cadets over the age of 18 may do so when not representing CAP.

WRONG! Cadets give up the right to smoke as part of being in CAP at anytime.
Proud founding member of the Fellowship of the Vuvuzela.
"And now we just take our Classical Mechanics equations, take the derivative, run it through the uncertainty principal, and take the anti-derivative of the resulting mess. Behold! Quantum Wave Equations! Clear as mud cadets?"
"No... You just broke math law, and who said anything about the anti-derivative? You can obtain the Schrödinger wave equations algebraically!" The funniest part was watching the cadets staring at the epic resulting math fight.

Eclipse

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on July 07, 2010, 03:47:42 AM
With which I don't disagree, but clearly I act differently with my friends than with SMs or Cadets at a CAP activity.

Is "duh" too strong for this conversation? (or maybe too informal)

No one is saying a cadet is supposed to be making facing movements at the mall, or coming to attention when their teacher enters
the room, and your comments about inappropriate behavior by seniors don't make your case either.  Illegal activity is grounds
for anyone to be terminated, and use of drugs or alcohol by cadets almost always usually falls into that category.

Bottom line, no CAP member is exempt from the ramifications of their bad behavior should it get back to CAP.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on July 07, 2010, 03:52:03 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on July 07, 2010, 03:47:42 AM
With which I don't disagree, but clearly I act differently with my friends than with SMs or Cadets at a CAP activity.

As for drinking/smoking while around cadets, beyond the "few drinks" at a banquette, I don't think it's an appropriate behavior for Seniors to do it around cadets. It may not be prohibited, but the regulations I've read have stated that it is discouraged. Further along that line of thinking, cadets are prohibited from smoking at a CAP activity/in uniform, however cadets over the age of 18 may do so when not representing CAP.

WRONG! Cadets give up the right to smoke as part of being in CAP at anytime.

No, they do not.  They are not allowed to use or possess tobacco products during CAP activities, but outside that CAP
has no authority to restrict an otherwise legal activity (i.e. over 18).

"That Others May Zoom"

Krapenhoeffer

 :o Wait, so one of the cadets I mentioned earlier who was 2b'd over a facebook photo was kicked out for a photo that was found of him smoking on a hunting trip with his parents (he was 19). Granted, they were looking for a reason to get this Cadet kicked out.

Still... Doesn't make it right. And I doubt that you'll ever find a DDR officer who would admit that you're correct.  ::)
Proud founding member of the Fellowship of the Vuvuzela.
"And now we just take our Classical Mechanics equations, take the derivative, run it through the uncertainty principal, and take the anti-derivative of the resulting mess. Behold! Quantum Wave Equations! Clear as mud cadets?"
"No... You just broke math law, and who said anything about the anti-derivative? You can obtain the Schrödinger wave equations algebraically!" The funniest part was watching the cadets staring at the epic resulting math fight.

JohnKachenmeister

This is a productive discussion.

I was a reserve officer, and sometimes ran into enlisted members of my unit outside of the unit.  Courtesy was still observed.  I was addressed by my rank, and I addressed them by theirs.  Socialization by officers with enlisted members is still not in the interest of readiness, even among the military's "Christmas help."  Now, we might chat for a few minutes, I would always be cordial, but there was still a fence between us, and that fence was maintained from both sides.

Cadets might be a BIT different, especially if one is the child of one of my officer friends.  This calls for a little skill, tact, and discretion.  For example, I would never criticize another officer in the presence of a cadet.  I might be a little less discreet in the presence of an officer's child who was an adult enlisted person.

But as far as not being a "Real" officer, don't try saying that to my face.  I am prone to violence, and I have papers here to prove that.  I soldiered for my rank.  In fact, if you are less than 21, I was a "Real" officer before you were born.
Another former CAP officer

Krapenhoeffer

Sorry, I meant real as in the context of RealMilitaryTM. What I intended to say is that a CAP officer holds no commission. This is a fact that seems to be overlooked by one member (who is not the commander) during the Ritual Pizza Consumption Following Senior PromotionsTM, which is a Senior-only activity.  ;D
Proud founding member of the Fellowship of the Vuvuzela.
"And now we just take our Classical Mechanics equations, take the derivative, run it through the uncertainty principal, and take the anti-derivative of the resulting mess. Behold! Quantum Wave Equations! Clear as mud cadets?"
"No... You just broke math law, and who said anything about the anti-derivative? You can obtain the Schrödinger wave equations algebraically!" The funniest part was watching the cadets staring at the epic resulting math fight.

Eclipse

Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on July 07, 2010, 04:16:52 AM
Wait, so one of the cadets I mentioned earlier who was 2b'd over a facebook photo was kicked out for a photo that was found of him smoking on a hunting trip with his parents (he was 19). Granted, they were looking for a reason to get this Cadet kicked out.

Absent other information, the above sounds like a termination which would never stand a properly filed appeal.

My guess would be that in this case, the cadet didn't know the program any better than the CC's terminating him, or didn't care enough to
bother.

"That Others May Zoom"

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on July 07, 2010, 04:25:29 AM
Sorry, I meant real as in the context of RealMilitaryTM. What I intended to say is that a CAP officer holds no commission. This is a fact that seems to be overlooked by one member (who is not the commander) during the Ritual Pizza Consumption Following Senior PromotionsTM, which is a Senior-only activity.  ;D

You are correct that the President does not commission CAP officers, and that CAP officers do not have command authority over military personnel.  Those facts, while true, are meaningless.  The USAF recognizes CAP rank in that they have approved use of military ranks and the standards CAP uses to award those ranks.  Otherwise, we could be like the Confederate Air Force and all be colonels.

If you cannot accept the fact that you are a CAP officer, responsible for the mission and the welfare of your subordinates, then you lack the ability to lead.

Over the 4th of July weekend I commanded a mission involving one aircraft, one ground team, and seven member's lives.  The mission was for the USAF, and involved searching for an ELT reported from several aircraft.  I accomplished this mission as I accomplished any other mission I have been given over the years, both in the CAP and in the Army.  There is no difference between me on this mission and an Air Guard officer intercepting an intruding aircraft, except on payday.

YOU may not be a "Real officer," but many of us in CAP are.  Some, like me, learned to be officers in the military.  Others learned to be officers in CAP. 
Another former CAP officer

NCRblues

double standards.....


Eclipse, would you ever EVER say "Is "duh" too strong for this conversation?" to a cadet face to face??? i doubt it very very much. If a cadet came in here and said these to you, you would jump down his neck about proper SM/cadet behavior...... so.....why is it OK for you to say something like that?? Their was a SM around where i am, who told a cadet what he said was stupid. This cadet told Mommy, Mommy told group commander, and local news agency, less that 24 hours later that SM was not SM anymore.... I'm pretty sure you wouldn't risk your cap career, but i guess its OK to say it here, i mean, your a SM and he is a cadet.....

johnkachenmeister, if a cadet came in here and said "I am prone to violence, and I have papers here to prove that" even joking you would jump down their neck, and would probably show them the door if they were at your squadron (or at least give them some strong counseling).
Why is it OK for you to say something like that???

double standards are SO great!!!!
In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC

JayT

Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on July 07, 2010, 02:55:48 AM
The question, and the issue I bring up here is Cadet/Senior relations, away from CAP.

Now, my original understanding when I was a cadet was that I was a cadet only when I was representing CAP in some fashion. I mean, there were a few cadets whose parents were senior members, so there had to be a line when I stopped being a complete cadet.

Regrettably, it was this very issue that forced me to adopt my gray shoulder boards and nameplate at 18. A few years ago, I was having a discussion on Facebook regarding political issues with some of my high school friends. A Captain that added me as a friend immediately jumped into the conversation, and his comment was tantamount to accusing myself of being Anti-American. Taking huge offense, I replied, addressing him as "Mr. <name>." He dodged the issue and proceeded to chastise me for not addressing him as Captain. The next meeting, I was questioned about it by my commander. In frustruration, I returned next week with a CAPF12 filled out and on my commander's desk, along with my cadet grade insignia.

Now, I'm glad that until I hit 21, I'm just Mr. Krapenhoeffer in any CAP-related situation. Now, I personally believe that out of uniform, and away from CAP, cadets should treat their senior members with the same respect they would show their good teachers at school. I also believe that senior members should not be addressed by their CAP grade when away from CAP-related activities. I mean, except for Col and above, our grade as senior members only reflects our progression within the Professional Development program, and carries no authority with it. We are not "real" officers, and are only afforded the privilege of military grade insignia. Everyone has to agree that CAP does not define one's life, unlike military service, which does.

Lemme ask you this.

Are you an EMT all the time? If you're working on a vollie bus, are you less of a 'real' EMT? Or are you a professional regardless of the uniform or patch you have?

A cadet is a cadet all the time. That doesn't mean snapping to attention or standing at parade rest, but it does mean knowing the importance of 'sir/ma'am' and not acting like idiots. It means holding yourself up to a little higher standard then your contemporaries.  I don't believe that cadets and SM's should be facebookin' it, or if they are, the SM should limit a cadet's access to what they can see.

'Officer' isn't just a title for a commissioned military officer. IT's a state of mind and action.

I don't see it as a double standard. Colonel Kachenmeister was referring to the different ways that one can become a CAP officer. He's also earned the right to say stuff like that I believe.
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

NCRblues

He has earned the right to say ""I am prone to violence, and I have papers here to prove that"????? :o

I think the majority of this nation, and the court system disagrees with you, no one "earns the right" to be prone to violence.....
In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC

Daniel

Quote from: NCRblues on July 07, 2010, 04:43:25 AM


johnkachenmeister, if a cadet came in here and said "I am prone to violence, and I have papers here to prove that" even joking you would jump down their neck, and would probably show them the door if they were at your squadron (or at least give them some strong counseling).
Why is it OK for you to say something like that???

double standards are SO great!!!!

You'd be suprised how many cadets have been in and or are in counseling. So I doubt they would/could show all of them the door
C/Capt Daniel L, CAP
Wright Brothers No. 12670
Mitchell No. 59781
Earhart No. 15416

Krapenhoeffer

And I can accept that I am an officer. I also can accept that one does not need to be serious 24/7. For me, it depends on the situation. If I'm wearing my ITO hat, I have to have a sense of humor, because frankly, the router is still going to not want to identify with the laptop. If I'm wearing my EMT or GTL hat, I stick to the authoritarian method of leadership, because then it is necessary. I'm serious around Cadets, because that's what Cadets want to and need to see.

Regardless, I consider myself one of the "laid back Seniors." But only around other Seniors.

With that in mind, NCRblues, I can understand a joke. I could say, "I am prone to shoving plastic tubes down people's throats, and I have the papers to prove it" because that's true, as it is for the good Colonel (except with violence as opposed to oral airways).

And JThemann: unless you're a Paramedic, you're on the Vollie Bus where I live.
Proud founding member of the Fellowship of the Vuvuzela.
"And now we just take our Classical Mechanics equations, take the derivative, run it through the uncertainty principal, and take the anti-derivative of the resulting mess. Behold! Quantum Wave Equations! Clear as mud cadets?"
"No... You just broke math law, and who said anything about the anti-derivative? You can obtain the Schrödinger wave equations algebraically!" The funniest part was watching the cadets staring at the epic resulting math fight.

Short Field

If you can't control yourself, why should we trust you to control other people?  I command missions as well, but I do it as a CAP Incident Commander which has no relationship at all to CAP rank.  Being the IC trumps any CAP rank signed into the mission.
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

Krapenhoeffer

Yes, that's more or less what I was trying to say Short Field. CAP is a weird world in which you can have a SMWOG command squadrons full of Lt. Cols. One's grade has nothing to do with organizational authority... Or to quote a cadet who was trying to grasp this concept "So... Grade isn't rank... Grade just helps you get rank... But it doesn't? I'm confused."

To which, my only reply was "Cadet, That's, well... Correct... Welcome to CAP."
Proud founding member of the Fellowship of the Vuvuzela.
"And now we just take our Classical Mechanics equations, take the derivative, run it through the uncertainty principal, and take the anti-derivative of the resulting mess. Behold! Quantum Wave Equations! Clear as mud cadets?"
"No... You just broke math law, and who said anything about the anti-derivative? You can obtain the Schrödinger wave equations algebraically!" The funniest part was watching the cadets staring at the epic resulting math fight.

Eclipse

Quote from: NCRblues on July 07, 2010, 04:43:25 AM
Eclipse, would you ever EVER say "Is "duh" too strong for this conversation?" to a cadet face to face??? i doubt it very very much.

Yeah, I probably would, and most certainly have in the past.  Also, any cadet who said "Duh, Sir!" would probably be OK in my book.

For the record I know USAFAUX2004 personally, he has served me in an exemplary fashion a number of times, and unlike you, since he's not looking to nail me on something, I doubt he took it anyway but in jest.

However I will grant you that in a discussion of decorum, it was probably inappropriate.

"That Others May Zoom"

NCRblues

I'm not looking to nail anyone on anything, i just want to point out, that IMHO we (SM) are attempting to hold cadets feet to the fire 24/7, when we (SM) do not  hold ourselves to that same fire......
In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC

Krapenhoeffer

Quote from: NCRblues on July 07, 2010, 05:32:02 AM
I'm not looking to nail anyone on anything, i just want to point out, that IMHO we (SM) are attempting to hold cadets feet to the fire 24/7, when we (SM) do not  hold ourselves to that same fire......

<Devil's Advocate>
Yet, you have a Patton quote as your signature... One about enforcing rules and the like.
</Devil's Advocate>

Well, we do hold our feet to a different fire... One that is used to heat a deep fryer... To make donuts...
Proud founding member of the Fellowship of the Vuvuzela.
"And now we just take our Classical Mechanics equations, take the derivative, run it through the uncertainty principal, and take the anti-derivative of the resulting mess. Behold! Quantum Wave Equations! Clear as mud cadets?"
"No... You just broke math law, and who said anything about the anti-derivative? You can obtain the Schrödinger wave equations algebraically!" The funniest part was watching the cadets staring at the epic resulting math fight.

SJFedor

Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on July 07, 2010, 05:38:14 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on July 07, 2010, 05:32:02 AM
I'm not looking to nail anyone on anything, i just want to point out, that IMHO we (SM) are attempting to hold cadets feet to the fire 24/7, when we (SM) do not  hold ourselves to that same fire......

<Devil's Advocate>
Yet, you have a Patton quote as your signature... One about enforcing rules and the like.
</Devil's Advocate>

Well, we do hold our feet to a different fire... One that is used to heat a deep fryer... To make donuts...

^--- only in the mornings. we transition over to mozzarella sticks and fries in the afternoon. at least thats how we roll in the south...  :o

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

JayT

Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on July 07, 2010, 05:04:49 AM


And JThemann: unless you're a Paramedic, you're on the Vollie Bus where I live.

So you're still a professional, even through you're a volunteer AEMT? Also, do you ever feel you're not on duty?
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

raivo

It's one of those "gray areas" where you have to make a judgment call.

WIWAC, the majority of the squadron's cadet staff (myself included) were on a first-name basis and regularly hung out with each other. In that particular case, it never would've occurred to me to try and bring CAP standards into a situation, because, well, who cared? On the other hand, if a CAP member were out in public and behaving in a way where they might discredit the organization (ie, it was known that they were a CAP member), I think taking some sort of CAP disciplinary action against them might be appropriate. Of course, there are exceptions - if someone's known to be using drugs, you can't keep them as a member of a group with a counterdrug mission - but once again, it comes down to judgment.

With regards to the scenario originally mentioned, my personal opinion is that if you were having a civil, intellectual discussion outside CAP channels, the SM in question was out of line to try and pull rank into the situation,

CAP Member, 2000-20??
USAF Officer, 2009-2018
Recipient of a Mitchell Award Of Irrelevant Number

"No combat-ready unit has ever passed inspection. No inspection-ready unit has ever survived combat."

tsrup

I don't hold cadets to any different standard than I hold myself.
Simple.

For those who haven't gathered by now, I am a college student.
And when CAP started to make a bigger presence on social networking sites, it was brought to my attention that my Facebook account (with a growing number of cadets throughout the wing adding me as "friends") was less than exemplary.  Now even though my settings were so that any cadet couldn't see anything on my profile or any of my pictures (college being college), I still removed everything that could misrepresent CAP. 
Why?  Simple.  No matter what happens in my life with whatever uniform I wear or don't.  As long as I carry a valid CAP ID I am a member of Civil Air Patrol in the public eye. 
If I get a DUI.  It's not just a person getting a DUI, its a CAP Officer getting one.  If I get belligerently drunk, it's not just another college guy doing what college guys do, it's a CAP officer.

Do you think it will matter what uniform you were wearing while you smoked pot if you had to show up to your next squadron meeting trying to explain to your cadets how they're not supposed to do drugs?  We set an example to our cadets and are supposed to be role models throughout every facet of life.

Does this mean no smoking (tobacco) or drinking?  No, absolutely not.  Just do them as responsibly as possible, because like it or not, you are representing CAP.  Perception is reality.

The same applies to cadets.  As long as anyone, and I mean ANYONE, knows that you are a cadet your actions will reflect on CAP regardless if you are wearing a uniform or not.  If you get a minor, you are a CADET who got a minor, not just a regular person. 

We in CAP hold ourselves to a higher standard, and thats the fact of the matter, because we are ALWAYS representing our organization as long as ANYONE knows we are a part of it.
Paramedic
hang-around.

lordmonar

Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on July 07, 2010, 02:55:48 AM
The question, and the issue I bring up here is Cadet/Senior relations, away from CAP.

Now, my original understanding when I was a cadet was that I was a cadet only when I was representing CAP in some fashion. I mean, there were a few cadets whose parents were senior members, so there had to be a line when I stopped being a complete cadet.

Regrettably, it was this very issue that forced me to adopt my gray shoulder boards and nameplate at 18. A few years ago, I was having a discussion on Facebook regarding political issues with some of my high school friends. A Captain that added me as a friend immediately jumped into the conversation, and his comment was tantamount to accusing myself of being Anti-American. Taking huge offense, I replied, addressing him as "Mr. <name>." He dodged the issue and proceeded to chastise me for not addressing him as Captain. The next meeting, I was questioned about it by my commander. In frustruration, I returned next week with a CAPF12 filled out and on my commander's desk, along with my cadet grade insignia.

Now, I'm glad that until I hit 21, I'm just Mr. Krapenhoeffer in any CAP-related situation. Now, I personally believe that out of uniform, and away from CAP, cadets should treat their senior members with the same respect they would show their good teachers at school. I also believe that senior members should not be addressed by their CAP grade when away from CAP-related activities. I mean, except for Col and above, our grade as senior members only reflects our progression within the Professional Development program, and carries no authority with it. We are not "real" officers, and are only afforded the privilege of military grade insignia. Everyone has to agree that CAP does not define one's life, unlike military service, which does.
I have not read the rest of the thread....but to answer your question....you are always a cadet and I am always a SM....and we both are always Representatives of the CAP and by extention the USAF.  On or off duty, in or out of uniform.

Period....end of message.

Granted there are down times when you can relax and be easy.  When military protocol is not always 100% but the fact is cadets are always cadets and SM are always Senior Members.

Your actions "on your own time" can and do reflect and can affect your performance at CAP.

Here are a few examples...as supported by the regulations.

School performance.
Senior/Cadet relationships. (you can't date a senior no matter where or when).
You can be 2b'ed for conduct away from CAP activities.
And your personal conduct as a "civilian" reflects on your promot ability in CAP. (I had a cadet be picked up for stealing....and I held back a promotion for six months).

While it the SM may have been out of line for giving you grief over the "Mr. Bagodonuts vs Capt Bagodonuts" the fact remains is that he is always a SM and you (were) always a cadet and it does reflect and carry over.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

DogCollar

Senior Members should NOT be held to the same standards as cadets.  Senior Members should be held to a higher standard...and by a WIDE margin.  Senior Members are role models, even if we do not work directly with Cadets.  Smoking, drinking and other "lawful" activities may not be restricted by regulation, but Senior Members need to go above and beyond regulations, where behavior is concerned...because we are role models.  That's written between the lines of CAP membership.

The Senior Member who calls a cadet on the carpet for having a political debate on a social networking site is not being a good role model, in my opinion.  Political speech is protected by the constitution and cannot be hindered by Civil Air Patrol, officially or unofficially, unless the individual is in uniform or officially representing Civil Air Patrol. 

Senior Members who regularly "troll" social media sites to reign in cadet thought and speech need to be reigned in themselves.  They are opening themselves and the organization up for recriminations, in my opinion.
Ch. Maj. Bill Boldin, CAP

Dad2-4

Having been in Scouting for roughly 33 years, fellow Scouters and Scouts have had the discussion may times of whether or not on is a Scout/Scouter while not in uniform and not at a meeting. The general view has always turned the fact that we are all members of the organization and have pledged to abide by the Scout Oath and Scout Law.
Having said that, in reading this thread, my mind turns to the fact that as long as one is a member of the organization, be it as a cadet or SM, we voluntarily subscribed to the Cadet Oath and/or the oath of membership, particularly the part that says, "I voluntarily subscribe to the objectives and purposes of the Civil Air Patrol and agree to be guided by CAP Core Values, Ethics Policies, ...."
Is a cadet always a cadet? My answer is that as long as they hold current membership, then they should be striving in their daily lives to behave morally and ethically as a cadet. SMs should likewise be striving in their daily lives to behave in a way that would bring credit to the organization.
I totally agree with the comment above that if we screw up it gets reported as a CAP officer screwing up because it tends to happen with  people of my religion. News reports rarely fail to mention the person's religion.

Rotorhead

#44
For those who believe cadets need only be cadets while in uniform..

Do you also agree that they only need to adhere to CAP's Core Values while in uniform, too?

Seems like they wouldn't mean much if that's the case.
Capt. Scott Orr, CAP
Deputy Commander/Cadets
Prescott Composite Sqdn. 206
Prescott, AZ

Stonewall

In DCWG we had a cadet get suspended from school for changing grades on his report card.  He was suspended from CAP as well.  He never returned.

I say you're a cadet 24/7, but use good judgement.  If you see a senior member at a football game, don't salute them.  If you're at school, don't cheat.  If your and your dad are members, don't report to him for breakfast.  And don't call your fellow cadets "Sergeant" or "sir" when you pass them in the halls at school.

It's more about conduct and integrity.  Doing what is right, even when no one is looking. 
Serving since 1987.

ZigZag911

WIWAC some of us had friends whose parents were seniors; there would occasionally be a social occasion (summer cookout, graduation party)....at those times, we cadets always erred on the side of courtesy, using the senior's rank until/unless instructed "please call me Mr/Mrs ______ when we're not a CAP activity".

When I was a group CC some years ago I was teaching a summer evening course in a local college, which had rented out its auditorium for a high school graduation. During a break I'm standing on the front steps as the graduation ceremony participants leave the building and are milling around. I see a young man, 12-13 y.o., in civvies of course, whose face I recognized from a recent squadron visit, suddenly standing in front of me snapping off a parade ground salute (as I fumbled to pocket my cell phone!)

Naturally I returned his salute (with as much seriousness as he had put into his), told him it was nice to see him and I appreciated him taking the time to greet me. I also mentioned that it was great that he had learned his leadership lab so well (saluting an officer on recognition), but explained that generally CAP officers would not expect a salute outside CAP.

He walked off with a big grin; I stood there shaking my head over what small world it is (my group covered 7 of NJ's 21 counties!)

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on July 07, 2010, 05:22:36 AM
Yeah, I probably would, and most certainly have in the past.  Also, any cadet who said "Duh, Sir!" would probably be OK in my book.

For the record I know USAFAUX2004 personally, he has served me in an exemplary fashion a number of times...I doubt he took it anyway but in jest.

^^^Eclipse certainly isn't a Drill Sergeant type of officer. He has a heart and a soul. Obviously, due to our familiarity spanning some five plus years now, our conversations here on CAPTalk have been less than formal.

As for the "Duh" comment, I did indeed take it jest. Sometimes, and this really is on a case to case basis, the "kid gloves(TM)", aren't needed. At the end of my active CAP participation, I was 17-18, and knew most SM leaders in my unit as well as a few from other local units. The understanding was, while I'm a cadet I don't get to hear the "beer talk" topics, but I also don't get treated as a ten year old.

But back to my stance, where I see people using false logic. I don't believe in the core values because I'm a cadet. CAP can't teach me that, my family did and CAP built on that. Just because I believe I'm not a cadet 24/7, doesn't mean I turn into a savage rebel. But as I pointed out, while cadets are prohibited from smoking at CAP activities/in uniform, it is completely acceptable for them to do so outside of CAP over the age of 18. Same applies for airsoft and paintball and dozens of other CAP prohibited activities.

lordmonar

True...there are activities that you can't do on CAP time but you can do on your own time.

But the point I am trying to make is, your "off duty" conduct and behavior does have implications to your CAP career.

You are a cadet 24/7....and I am a SM 24/7.

Does that mean you got to call the room to attention when I walk into the Mc Donald's that you are working at?  NO....no one is suggesting that either.

But if you steal from that Mc Donald's or do a great job at that Mc Donald's.....either of these actions could and should reflect upon your CAP life.

This does not mean that you got to be 100% gung ho AF Blue 24/7......heck even AD USAF are not.  We take leave, down time, decompress, have social occasions, call the Col the "old man" and the Lieutenants "Lt"....heck we have even call subordinates and supervisors by their first names!

There is a time and place for everything....including military protocol.......but end of the day....you ARE a CAP member 24/7.  What you do reflects on yourself and the organisation and what you do can be used against or for you in respect to your CAP career.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Krapenhoeffer

Okay, others have stated what I meant better than I. Yes, Cadets and Senior Members are accountable for their actions at all times. I've seen my share of Senior Members in my squadron, who believe that Cadets have to be Gung Ho Blue 24/7. And I didn't agree.
Proud founding member of the Fellowship of the Vuvuzela.
"And now we just take our Classical Mechanics equations, take the derivative, run it through the uncertainty principal, and take the anti-derivative of the resulting mess. Behold! Quantum Wave Equations! Clear as mud cadets?"
"No... You just broke math law, and who said anything about the anti-derivative? You can obtain the Schrödinger wave equations algebraically!" The funniest part was watching the cadets staring at the epic resulting math fight.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on July 07, 2010, 06:46:57 PM
Okay, others have stated what I meant better than I. Yes, Cadets and Senior Members are accountable for their actions at all times. I've seen my share of Senior Members in my squadron, who believe that Cadets have to be Gung Ho Blue 24/7. And I didn't agree.

Which is what I'm arguing against. Obviously I'll show respect to SMs when I meet them outside of CAP, but that's just how I was brought up to treat adults.

In fact, even though I know Eclipse, I can't think of him as anything but Sir/Major Eclipse. :P To use his first name, or even last just doesn't sit right, and it has nothing to do with CAP, just general life experience to date - he has more. One day, maybe once I'm over 21 for a while, maybe we'll have "a cold one" and maybe he'll tell me to call him by his first name. But who knows, maybe when he asks, I'll just reply "Yes Sir".

Major Carrales

There must exist at all time a level of mutual respect between CAP Officers and CAP Cadets.  This is the mark of simple civility and the nature of the program. 

The Cadet Oath... "obey my officers..." and CAP Core Value of Respect are more "clear" that most will give creedence too in this thread.  When at a CAP activity, the SM is to provide clear orders in the scope of the activity that are followed by the cadets.  That ends once the activity is over and the uniform is hanging in the closet.  RESPECT, however, continues so long as a cadet and senior is active.  Thus, if I see a cadet at Wal*mart...it is not unusual for the cadet to refer to me as "Major" and me to respond by calling the cadet "Cadet" or by their grade.  It would, however, not be correct for me to start ordering the cadet to assist with my shopping or move something.  Now, I could ask if I was having difficulty or the cadet could offer.  That simple off hours exchange might reflect that true "respect" exists.  (a person often had an understanding for those that they respect, the resultant is that they want to help them...not of obligation, but out of simple decency and civility.)

I expect both senior and cadet members off CAP duty to refrain from using profanity around each other or/and end any public display of affection in which they might be engaged simply as a from of respect.

It seems to me that some of the cadet and former cadet members who have posted in this thread have some problem with their Senior Members...  I recently visited a military forum where a former CAP cadet was bragging to those threadsters that they, while even at CAP activities, would never bound to follow any order from any CAP member because they were not commissioned members of the US Armed Forces.  That they even laughed in the fact of a CAP cadet NCO.

Sorry to break it to that person, but when you join an organization you bind yourself to its constitution, rules, laws, culture and heritage.  If you intend to benefit from CAP, you had best as well follow the rules or it is time for you to go.  If you can't stand the idea that a CAP officer, or Scout Master, or Navy League Volutneer is your superior...then you need not be members.

Same applies to Senior Members.  You have an obligation to those cadets...to train them, to guide them to good citizenship and to respect that they have "value" more than just being a "mere kid."  I've seen some Senior Members look at cadets as pariahs...worthless things so far removed from them that they are an annoyance.  Cadet pick up on that.  If they know that the Commanding Senior Member doesn't care about them as people with worth, how can that Senior Member expect to be respected.  Also those that suddently become George C. Scott's Patton character and start throwing their weight around.  That attidude is totally counterproductive. 


Simply put...
The Senior Members are, no matter what is said, the "mentor" and the Cadet the "trainee."  Cadets have to respect the Senior Member or, if that cannot be done, they need to leave. Senior Members, too, have a responsibility to respect the Cadets.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: NCRblues on July 07, 2010, 04:57:21 AM
He has earned the right to say ""I am prone to violence, and I have papers here to prove that"????? :o

I think the majority of this nation, and the court system disagrees with you, no one "earns the right" to be prone to violence.....

Lighten up, Francis.

BTW, if you are NOT prone to violence, you won't be worth a fart in a windstorm in combat.
Another former CAP officer

JK657

Lighten up, Francis.

BTW, if you are NOT prone to violence, you won't be worth a fart in a windstorm in combat.


Times have changed in the military, being "prone to violence" is not in keeping with the current rules of engagement

NCRblues

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 08, 2010, 01:52:58 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on July 07, 2010, 04:57:21 AM
He has earned the right to say ""I am prone to violence, and I have papers here to prove that"????? :o

I think the majority of this nation, and the court system disagrees with you, no one "earns the right" to be prone to violence.....

Lighten up, Francis.

BTW, if you are NOT prone to violence, you won't be worth a fart in a windstorm in combat.

please do not tell me what i would be worth in a combat situation. In fact i have been in those situations on more than one occasion on my two deployments to Iraq, and I performed just fine without being "prone to violence".

Thank you for judging a fellow veteran even before knowing them.
In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC

DakRadz

#55
I am a cadet at all times. However, I may be somewhat unique.

I represent C.A.P. to most of the people I know, because in a school of 1500, only I am a member. (Yes, I know I need to recruit- let the dog lie for now, hmm? :) ) Even the ones not in JROTC recognize the subtle C.A.P. uniform quirks- "Hey, why do you have on only 9 ribbons instead of those 30?" "Wow, those rank look way cool... Aren't you an (cadet) officer though?"

I represent AFJROTC, because I am a leader in that as well. The school is fairly familiar with our unit's more public endeavors- Drill, CG, Flag Presentation Team; I command the first and participate in the latter and then some.

I even represent NJROTC because of a now-defunct unit which was my entry into the cadet world. This is half of my resume and gained me TIG reductions in AFJROTC and C.A.P.- I still wear the awards, still use the privileges, and still represent the program in many eyes.

So yes, I would address superiors by their rank if I met them outside of official functions (and I have a lot of superiors ^_^ ) Mostly, though, I say hello, etc., and skedaddle to another area, away from that superior. Only happened once, and we were all leaving the movies anyway. But I have to try to keep myself all-but-saluting as if I were in uniform, because every action is recognized as part of one of those programs. Balancing act, lemme tell ya, trying to be normal yet extremely proper- not necessary a bad thing.

Now, on CAPTalk, I'm always a cadet- official or not, this is still a meeting of the minds for C.A.P. personnel... and trolls. Dirty trolls. But I digress.

I may not say sir, but I do my best to be polite even when dissenting. I recognize that men and women are on here who have been pilots/RM/C.A.P. personnel/etc. before I was a twinkle. Even the ones nearly my age (FO) receive my courtesy because I pledge to obey my officers. At the same time, a lot comes down to (in the Southern words) home trainin'. I was taught to be polite and respectful to my superiors.

I believe I've covered everyone's points, but... I tend to ramble on long posts like this... So here's my basic point.

I witnessed the incident(s) which sparked this thread being started. Things were out of hand a bit. Bottom line is, cadets should be careful what they say and post, and how it's done. Someone above mentioned that many people view this site. All actions have consequences. You could offend someone potentially in your future (or current!) chain of command- then be pushed aside, demoted, held back, or ignored for positions.

And you may never realize what the reason was.

I also try to stay out of the SM v. SM... discussions. As I've said elsewhere, they're unnecessary in most (all) cases

JoeTomasone

Quote from: Major Carrales on July 07, 2010, 10:51:14 PM

Same applies to Senior Members.  You have an obligation...

+1, and may I add that Senior Members have an obligation to show the same respect, customs, and courtesies that we expect of Cadets between ourselves, as well?

Too many Senior Members think that these things are optional.


O-Rex

#57
The one cardinal rule that I've lived by in CAP is 'maintain your sense of perspective.'  We've chosen to be a part of something bigger than ourselves, and conformed to a set of standards and norms that might be considered a cut above average (or so I'd like to think.)  I don't think anyone expects CAP members, Seniors or Cadets, to 'bleed blue,'  and frankly I would question their social maturity and self-adjustment if they did. 

But more important than a spiffy uniform is the person inside of it, otherwise ribbons are just strips of cloth, and badges are but bits of tinsel.

If you think you might be 'coloring outside the lines,' ask yourself: IS IT LEGAL? WILL ANYONE GET HURT? IS IT SOMETHING I'D WANT SPLAYED ON THE MORNING PAPER? **WOULD I WANT IT TO BE THE SUBJECT OF DISCUSSION AT A SQUADRON MEETING?

Perhaps we don't wear uniforms 24/7, but you don't hang your sense of honor or integrity in the closet until the next CAP event.....     

Daniel

Sorry to be that guy.

But if by this logic, If my mom makes Lt, I have to greet her 24/7/365 even at home?
C/Capt Daniel L, CAP
Wright Brothers No. 12670
Mitchell No. 59781
Earhart No. 15416

JoeTomasone

Quote from: Daniel L on July 08, 2010, 07:24:26 AM
Sorry to be that guy.

But if by this logic, If my mom makes Lt, I have to greet her 24/7/365 even at home?


As with all things, a good dose of common sense is required.

SarDragon

And sadly, generally speaking, common sense is frequently not so common.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: JK657 on July 08, 2010, 03:03:28 AM
Lighten up, Francis.

BTW, if you are NOT prone to violence, you won't be worth a fart in a windstorm in combat.


Times have changed in the military, being "prone to violence" is not in keeping with the current rules of engagement


You are probably right.  That's why we're losing.
Another former CAP officer

High Speed Low Drag

Quote from: Daniel L on July 08, 2010, 07:24:26 AM
Sorry to be that guy.

But if by this logic, If my mom makes Lt, I have to greet her 24/7/365 even at home?

Does USAF CMSgt Dahl have to call his son, USAF Capt Dahl, "sir" and "Captain" everytime he talks to him?  Does our squadron commander, Captain Wingfield call his wife, the squadron legal officer Maj. Wingfield "Ma'am" and "Major" when they are discussin what to make for dinner?

No.  Common sense dictates that there is a time and place for everything and in the exclusive environment of the family, rank/grade is not appropriate.  However, in a professional environment, even on a discussion board related to the organization, customs and courtesies are appropriate. 
G. St. Pierre                             

"WIWAC, we marched 5 miles every meeting, uphill both ways!!"

Short Field

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 08, 2010, 02:44:06 PM
You are probably right.  That's why we're losing.
You think we are losing because our warriors no longer have a fighting spirit?  Get real!!!  Being capable of violence and able to deal it out when needed is not the same as "prone to violence".  My ADHD nephew is prone to violence - we keep him medicated.
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

DogCollar

Quote from: Daniel L on July 08, 2010, 07:24:26 AM
Sorry to be that guy.

But if by this logic, If my mom makes Lt, I have to greet her 24/7/365 even at home?

Even she weren't a Lt, you should greet her with respect 24/7/365, because she's your mom!  No one outranks mom!!!! ;D
Ch. Maj. Bill Boldin, CAP

Major Carrales

Quote from: DogCollar on July 08, 2010, 05:11:10 PM
Quote from: Daniel L on July 08, 2010, 07:24:26 AM
Sorry to be that guy.

But if by this logic, If my mom makes Lt, I have to greet her 24/7/365 even at home?

Even she weren't a Lt, you should greet her with respect 24/7/365, because she's your mom!  No one outranks mom!!!! ;D

It would seem, dear friends, that some here may think that respect is an optional "burden."  This is likely a sign of the times where one is more likely to be shot "the bird" than a friendly greeting like a wave or salute.  That may be the case, however, if you are a CAP member you should automatically default to a position of respectful civility.

That is what the real issue is here.  Not "Do I have to salute Lt Col Sowinsow at the Lion's Club pancake dinner?" but rather "Do I have to show respect if I don't have to."  The answer to which is..."if you have to ask...you likely need to develop your sense of respect."

Honestly, does it hurt to show good manners or courtesies?  I'm not asking for people to mow people's lawns for free or genuflect before someone of higher rank...just be respectful.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

CadetProgramGuy

I choose "Other"  Here is why....

Treading very lightly, there is an OPSEC and FOUO if I get too detailed, but there was a "discussion" about this very topic a few years ago concerning when are cadets - cadets, and when are Officers, Officers.

Here is what the official answer is that came back to us.

"Cadets are Cadets (replace as necessary for Officers) when on Official CAP duties to include travel from their point of departure until such time as they return to that point of departure."

Back to me now......

I was also informed that this was also meant to include cadets that were of age to consume tobacco.  Meaning that Cadet X is 18, and a smoker could not light up until she/he got home, even if she/he changed out of CAP uniform before they left.  Hard to prove in the end, but thats what I was lead to believe.

Short Field

Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on July 09, 2010, 04:35:28 AM
Treading very lightly, there is an OPSEC and FOUO if I get too detailed,
There might be personal privacy concerns, but there is no way OPSEC or FOUO concerns can apply to a definition of when is a cadet a cadet.

The crux of this discussion boils down to when can a cadet be held responsible for his actions in CAP.  A lot of people, including me, believe a cadet is always responsible for his actions and can be held to the standard we hold all cadets to.  Are there exceptions - sure.  Uncle Joe is still Uncle Joe whenever the cadet is not at a CAP function and would probably be hard to not address as Uncle Joe during.a CAP function.  Parents in CAP - I don't even want to go there.  Cadet of legal age seen smoking out of uniform and not at a CAP function - not worth my time except for a one-time lecture on the ills of smoking.   Disrespectful comments or pictures about CAP or CAP members posted on a social web site - you bet the cadet is in trouble.     
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

Ozzy

*sigh* Looking at all of this makes me think that it all boils down to when should we display customs and courtesies, right?

Which the answer is always YES. However it also depends on the situation. During CAP activities or events or on a military installation, then we follow the 'military C&Cs'. When out of uniform and not performing on a military installation or participating in a CAP activity then you follow the normal everyday 'civilian C&Cs.

In case you didn't know,
Quote from: WikipediaMilitary courtesy is an extension and a formalization of courtesies practiced in a culture's everyday life. It is intended to reinforce discipline and the chain of command, defining how soldiers will treat their superiors and vice versa.
Ozyilmaz, MSgt, CAP
C/Lt. Colonel (Ret.)
NYWG Encampment 07, 08, 09, 10, 17
CTWG Encampment 09, 11, 16
NER Cadet Leadership School 10
GAWG Encampment 18, 19
FLWG Winter Encampment 19

JoeTomasone

Quote from: Ozzy on July 09, 2010, 07:09:44 AM
*sigh* Looking at all of this makes me think that it all boils down to when should we display customs and courtesies, right?

Which the answer is always YES. However it also depends on the situation. During CAP activities or events or on a military installation, then we follow the 'military C&Cs'. When out of uniform and not performing on a military installation or participating in a CAP activity then you follow the normal everyday 'civilian C&Cs.

In case you didn't know,
Quote from: WikipediaMilitary courtesy is an extension and a formalization of courtesies practiced in a culture's everyday life. It is intended to reinforce discipline and the chain of command, defining how soldiers will treat their superiors and vice versa.


When in civilian clothes, I render C&C based on how awkward the situation would be with respect to outside onlookers.


If I go to my Commander's house and we're both in civies, it's full C&C with the exception of saluting.   

If I run into him at the supermarket, I'll greet him with "sir", but won't address him by grade or "yes sir/no sir" everything he says.   

Of course, if I am in uniform, it's full C&C..  Onlookers would realize that I am addressing a superior who happens to be out of uniform at the moment.   It's when you're both out of uniform that people would look at you funny.


JayT

Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on July 09, 2010, 04:35:28 AM
I choose "Other"  Here is why....

Treading very lightly, there is an OPSEC and FOUO if I get too detailed, but there was a "discussion" about this very topic a few years ago concerning when are cadets - cadets, and when are Officers, Officers.

Here is what the official answer is that came back to us.

"Cadets are Cadets (replace as necessary for Officers) when on Official CAP duties to include travel from their point of departure until such time as they return to that point of departure."

Back to me now......

I was also informed that this was also meant to include cadets that were of age to consume tobacco.  Meaning that Cadet X is 18, and a smoker could not light up until she/he got home, even if she/he changed out of CAP uniform before they left.  Hard to prove in the end, but thats what I was lead to believe.


OPSEC and FUOU, eh? What does that mean again? What does that have to do with 'when a cadet is a cadet' ?
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

Major Lord

Prone to violence? That makes you a survivor ( or in some cases, a lunatic, although the two are not mutually exclusive)
Slow to violence? Excellent, plenty of good trauma practice for our EMS folks.
Non-violent? We will admire your fine ethical qualities....We will probably talk about these and all your idealistic qualities....at your funeral.

The world has as much room for wolves as sheep and sheepdogs! Its your choice.

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

a2capt

Walk right in ... it's around the back ...
Just a half a mile from ..  the railroad track ...

coolkites

I feel that many of these opinions are coming from SMs and thus I wanted to give my opinion. I ran into my squadron commander the other day when I was walking across the parking lot from taco-bell. Was it awkward? You bet! He said hello and I responded the same. It was no big deal. I'm a teenager and I have been known to use a choice word or two every now or then. I don't feel that I should be kicked out of CAP for being an average teenager. My squadron's Cadet Commander attended the same highschool as me. When we passed in the hallway we did not exchange salutes nor go by Commander or Cadet. Why? Because that would be weird! I may be a Cadet but I also have a social life and CAP is not something that I want to play a role in that. We mutually agreed (unspoken) that we could socialize at school without having to bring CAP into the picture. I attend school with many CAP cadets, most of whom I knew before I joined CAP. I see no reason to have to change my relationship with these people purely because I joined CAP. Just my two cents.

SarDragon

And common sense wins again! Give him a gold star!
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

HGjunkie

Quote from: coolkites on July 10, 2010, 05:52:31 AM
I feel that many of these opinions are coming from SMs and thus I wanted to give my opinion. I ran into my squadron commander the other day when I was walking across the parking lot from taco-bell. Was it awkward? You bet! He said hello and I responded the same. It was no big deal. I'm a teenager and I have been known to use a choice word or two every now or then. I don't feel that I should be kicked out of CAP for being an average teenager. My squadron's Cadet Commander attended the same highschool as me. When we passed in the hallway we did not exchange salutes nor go by Commander or Cadet. Why? Because that would be weird! I may be a Cadet but I also have a social life and CAP is not something that I want to play a role in that. We mutually agreed (unspoken) that we could socialize at school without having to bring CAP into the picture. I attend school with many CAP cadets, most of whom I knew before I joined CAP. I see no reason to have to change my relationship with these people purely because I joined CAP. Just my two cents.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Me too, but we just called each other by our names even though I met them through CAP.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

High Speed Low Drag

#76
Quote from: coolkites on July 10, 2010, 05:52:31 AM
I feel that many of these opinions are coming from SMs and thus I wanted to give my opinion. I ran into my squadron commander the other day when I was walking across the parking lot from taco-bell. Was it awkward? You bet! He said hello and I responded the same. It was no big deal. I'm a teenager and I have been known to use a choice word or two every now or then. I don't feel that I should be kicked out of CAP for being an average teenager. My squadron's Cadet Commander attended the same highschool as me. When we passed in the hallway we did not exchange salutes nor go by Commander or Cadet. Why? Because that would be weird! I may be a Cadet but I also have a social life and CAP is not something that I want to play a role in that. We mutually agreed (unspoken) that we could socialize at school without having to bring CAP into the picture. I attend school with many CAP cadets, most of whom I knew before I joined CAP. I see no reason to have to change my relationship with these people purely because I joined CAP. Just my two cents.

Like SarDragon said, Common sense wins again.  You weren't talking or posting about CAP in an open forum, you weren't at a CAP event, and you were with your peers (cadets).  However, when you met your squadron commander at Taco Bell, you admittedit was awkward but you said hello.  Customs & Courtesies win again.  You didn't tell him what policies of his you thought were stupid, you didn't tell him about how you felt about other senior members, etc.  You were professional and polite.  No difference than posting on a public forum.  That's what C & C is for, getting through awkward moments and situations with a clear set of rules spell out how we interact, especially when we are in public (either in person or through the internet).  And respect is ALWAYS in order.
G. St. Pierre                             

"WIWAC, we marched 5 miles every meeting, uphill both ways!!"

JK657

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 08, 2010, 02:44:06 PM
Quote from: JK657 on July 08, 2010, 03:03:28 AM
Lighten up, Francis.

BTW, if you are NOT prone to violence, you won't be worth a fart in a windstorm in combat.


Times have changed in the military, being "prone to violence" is not in keeping with the current rules of engagement


You are probably right.  That's why we're losing.

I take a lot of offense to your statement.

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: JK657 on July 10, 2010, 04:22:54 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 08, 2010, 02:44:06 PM
Quote from: JK657 on July 08, 2010, 03:03:28 AM
Lighten up, Francis.

BTW, if you are NOT prone to violence, you won't be worth a fart in a windstorm in combat.


Times have changed in the military, being "prone to violence" is not in keeping with the current rules of engagement


You are probably right.  That's why we're losing.

I take a lot of offense to your statement.

OK, Lieutenant, your offense is noted.  So, YOU tell me why we are losing if not due to overly-restrictive rules of engagement.

Another former CAP officer

Major Lord

A Cadet is always a Cadet, as long as they are a Cadet member, Res ispa loquitur The fact that the relationship between Cadets and Seniors, or Cadets and the RM, changes somewhat according to the social situation notwithstanding. If a Cadet in civilian clothes were to jump to attention out of uniform because an exalted Senior Member walked in to the same Taco Bell, I would counsel them to be cool and to tailor their behavior to the situation. The real questions come to the fore in cases like the two cadets who appeared on MTV, and were shown in School and CAP activities, the former while noticeably drunken, and swilling beer. The public association with their behaviors and CAP was inexcusable, and their own sense of propriety should have prevented this. Fail. The same status holds equally true for Senior Members ( Although because our organization in HQ'd in Maxwell Alabama, a certain amount of beer and smoking is unavoidable, perhaps even mandated)

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

Krapenhoeffer

Wow... And I thought I was the only one with the Awkward Taco Bell Encounter... Except that I walked into Tango Bravo in civvies, and I find the Cadet Commander and First Shirt in BDUs (Both GTLs, and were surveying potential targets for an upcoming Statewide SAREX). All they said was, "You see nothing. Don't ask questions. About, FACE! Tacos, MARCH!"

Now, for the "other topic" that came up, I'll have to talk with my ROTC instructors, but last time I checked, when the NCA says "Jump," I'm supposed to respond with something to the effect of "How high, sir?"
Proud founding member of the Fellowship of the Vuvuzela.
"And now we just take our Classical Mechanics equations, take the derivative, run it through the uncertainty principal, and take the anti-derivative of the resulting mess. Behold! Quantum Wave Equations! Clear as mud cadets?"
"No... You just broke math law, and who said anything about the anti-derivative? You can obtain the Schrödinger wave equations algebraically!" The funniest part was watching the cadets staring at the epic resulting math fight.

JohnKachenmeister

Off-duty encounters are common in reserve forces.  There is a certain awkwardness on both sides as to what to do.  The duty is usually on the senior in the encounter to set the tone.  While use of titles is never inappropriate, salutes in civilian clothes and in a civilian setting are usually not exchanged.  But if a troop recognizes me, and renders a salute, it must be returned.

If I am with another person, I will introduce the trooper... "(Spouse), this is Private (Trooper), one of my very best soldiers.  (Trooper), this is my wife, (Spouse).

Cordiality and courtesy, but not necessarily military correctness.
Another former CAP officer

Major Lord

Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on July 11, 2010, 10:34:07 PM
Wow... And I thought I was the only one with the Awkward Taco Bell Encounter... Except that I walked into Tango Bravo in civvies, and I find the Cadet Commander and First Shirt in BDUs (Both GTLs, and were surveying potential targets for an upcoming Statewide SAREX). All they said was, "You see nothing. Don't ask questions. About, FACE! Tacos, MARCH!"

Now, for the "other topic" that came up, I'll have to talk with my ROTC instructors, but last time I checked, when the NCA says "Jump," I'm supposed to respond with something to the effect of "How high, sir?"

You have Cadet GTL's? Sweet.

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

Eclipse

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 12, 2010, 12:41:41 AM
Cordiality and courtesy, but not necessarily military correctness.

For those of you who are espousing the "I'm just a regular teenager who uses a choice word or two...", it may come as a shock to
realize that there is still an expectation in this world that children and adolescents respect adults simply by virtue of their being "adults", and if you have to consciously adjust your behavior radically simply because you encounter a senior member, its time to dial things down at least in public.

You really shouldn't find yourself yelling "You can't make me get off your lawn, old man!", more than a couple times in your whole life - the people who realize that have a much better chance at careers that don't involve asking about biggie sizing.

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on July 12, 2010, 02:18:32 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 12, 2010, 12:41:41 AM
Cordiality and courtesy, but not necessarily military correctness.

For those of you who are espousing the "I'm just a regular teenager who uses a choice word or two...", it may come as a shock to
realize that there is still an expectation in this world that children and adolescents respect adults simply by virtue of their being "adults", and if you have to consciously adjust your behavior radically simply because you encounter a senior member, its time to dial things down at least in public.

You really shouldn't find yourself yelling "You can't make me get off your lawn, old man!", more than a couple times in your whole life - the people who realize that have a much better chance at careers that don't involve asking about biggie sizing.

I think that what it comes down to is the cultural differences when interacting with peers and adults.

I'll cuss with friends,  because that seems like the "style" of conversation, but I won't do it with adults.

I'll throw out an F bomb here and there when referencing my college and their billing department, and maybe throw in a WTF here and there online, but nothing on the level of Patti Blagojevich. ;)