Does your Wing do Fire Patrol??

[Smoothice]

Our wing does Fire Patrol for our state. Actually, I am one of the crew coordinators. I got a chance to fly as an observer on an actual "mission" put out by the forest service. It was a great opportunity. I got to learn alot about the G1000. I actually spotted a fire off in the distance! We contacted the nearest fire tower via FM radio, but, we learned that the fire was already an approved burn. They thanked us for being so sharp! The G1000 software was already loaded with the route, so really, all we had to do was let the autopilot fly it. I got a laugh out of the fact that the pilot had to keep reminding me that it was my job to keep my eyes glued to the window. That was strange for me. As a pilot, I am trained to Scan outside and fly. Overall, it was a really rewarding flight, knowing we were up there actually making a difference.

[RiverAux]

The national commanders presentation at the NEC mentioned maybe 3 states that did fire patrols.  Also mentioned flying them for an AFB -- Eglin?  Think there was a Volunteer article about fire patrols last year.

[heliodoc]

My State CONTRACTS to an FBO for our State fire patrol.

How do I know?  I just finished yesterday for the Spring fire season.  The FBO supplies the ships and the natural resource agency supplies the wildland firefighter / aerial observer usually a 3 month employee or on call...like me.....a forester and a pilot and a CAP member who jumped at the chance for an approx 10.50 / hr job just to get off the unenjoyment roles for a month...

Good to get PAID by the agency(ies) and have me as a professional doing this job.....no benefits, no 401K, no retirement....just the sheeeeer joy of right seating it for a month.

Its fine for CAP to do fire patrols for States that are in financial straits......but do not think a CAP Observer is a true replacement for us forester/pilots.  One's head HAS to be outside the cockpit and not paying attention to the dials and the G1000.  Unless the pilot is asking for assistance

You folks flyin a G1000?  That a pretty spendy ship compared to a 1990 PA-28 or a 2002 C172 round dial

But congrats to your mission...whether PAID or volunteer, either one are out making a diffrence

[mynetdude]

My State CONTRACTS to an FBO for our State fire patrol.

How do I know?  I just finished yesterday for the Spring fire season.  The FBO supplies the ships and the natural resource agency supplies the wildland firefighter / aerial observer usually a 3 month employee or on call...like me.....a forester and a pilot and a CAP member who jumped at the chance for an approx 10.50 / hr job just to get off the unenjoyment roles for a month...

Good to get PAID by the agency(ies) and have me as a professional doing this job.....no benefits, no 401K, no retirement....just the sheeeeer joy of right seating it for a month.

Its fine for CAP to do fire patrols for States that are in financial straits......but do not think a CAP Observer is a true replacement for us forester/pilots.  One's head HAS to be outside the cockpit and not paying attention to the dials and the G1000.  Unless the pilot is asking for assistance

You folks flyin a G1000?  That a pretty spendy ship compared to a 1990 PA-28 or a 2002 C172 round dial

But congrats to your mission...whether PAID or volunteer, either one are out making a diffrence

I am not wholeheartedly knowledgeable about forestry observers and CAP observers other than what I know from the classroom training.  Are you trying to tell us that forestry observers don't assist the pilots and CAP MOs do? CAP observers do look out the window, you make it sound like they don't care to look out the window but then again that's what a MS is for also.

[heliodoc]

Forestry observers help the pilot as do MS/MO series

CAP has been allowed to do fire patrols for years now..but the current CAP mantra continues "we can do it for free."

CAP is a good service to those States and communities that that are financially strapped. 

I do not think I made it sound that way, but here's what I will try to state in a "kinder" way...

Aerial fire detection is not rocket science but there is definite terminology that CAP needs and probably has received some instruction in.

Terminology such as heel, head, and flanks of fire, reading a map in section, township and range, estimating (sizeup) acreage, resources endangered, the ability to make the call to  to get a helicopter with a bucket to get launched, guiding both fire engines and personnel in to the incident, and the ability to guide air assets (airtankers) until an Air Tactical Group Supervisor can take over the air show, and the ability to orbit over a fire for more than an hour giving dispatch and firefighters continuous information.

Sure, CAP can do this when properly trained.  I make the point that there are professionals who do this every day and get paid (sometimes well and not so well) and it is fine and well that CAP pilots, MS and MO's do this, but they supplement in most cases and maybe a lead in some States.

But, sir, you made the assertion that you are not wholeheartedly knowledgeable.  I think your admission is square on and that others in CAP, are in some cases, in the same boat.  This is where some folks have heartburn with CAP when they claim they can do this or that mission, because of CAP capabilities.  That is all well and fine and a good service, but there folks who do this everyday in the professions in aviation and that is why I think people who get paid get defensive about "CAP's capabilities" when some of these operations require more than Part 61 and 91 operations. 

In short.... right, fire patrol aerial observers do the very thing CAP MS / MO's do only under MORE demanding situations than just observing for the smoke or fire. That is why CAP needs to LEARN other agency aviation operations, in depth, before assuming they can do more for free.

CAP needs to remember that LE, Sheriffs Office, and Government or State natural resource departments are also charged with search and rescue by statute and because of that, those aviation operations are usually called first unless a there are some other documents in place for assistance from others in these type of natural resource missions. 

[mynetdude]

helidoc,

very cool explanation I agree the professionals should never be replaced with CAP personnel; sure we could be trained to do it and like you said unless we do it everyday we are going to be a sore for all the pros trying to figure out what in the world we're doing.

I don't think CAP can or could (unless I am wrong?) ascertain what resources are needed, they could certainly advise what resources would be needed whether or not CAP is lead or not although with CAP being in the lead we tend to think we know what we're doing when sometimes we don't I suppose.

I don't always have the ability to keep up with every incident my wing gets and oddly I never thought CAP could be the lead agency unless it is performing its own trainings (SAREX) according to the FEMA NIMS/ICS it would be very possible for CAP to be the lead agency though it seems everything we do is in support of other agencies even if CAP is the lead; as I understand it CAP has been the lead agency in searches in the past and continues to do so even though the sheriffs have the sole responsibility.

I should add, CAP can benefit fire patrol rather than actively looking for fires as the pros do and leave it to them but perhaps assist passively like taking photos and alerting the pros when something is amiss or assist them in getting their resources there because we can do that and we know how what we don't know how to do is decide what is best for that fire situation.

[Short Field]

CAP has been allowed to do fire patrols for years now..but the current CAP mantra continues "we can do it for free."

CAP's mantra is we can do it cheaper than anyone else. That is not the same as free.

CAP is a good service to those States and communities that that are financially strapped. 

And those States and communities that want a less expensive way to do things instead of just throwing the taxpayers' money at the high bidder.

Aerial fire detection is not rocket science

That i agree with.  The rest of the stuff falls into the nice to have area.  If the people on the ground can't find the fire based on a set of coordinates they have problems.  CAP is not going to start guiding other aircraft from the air nor calling out helicopters.  That is the fire services responsibility.  We can provide a cheap alternative for wide area fire detection.  We are not going to take over the fire departments and aerial tankers.
[/quote]

[heliodoc]

^^^^

Sorry about the free vs cheaper "slip."

Don't know the greater details on contracts...how do we know it's throwing taxpayers money at a high bidder?

Ever hear of the FEPP program?  Its a Federal Fire program that is passed down from the USFS down to the State Foresters that can supply equipment including SOME aircraft, engines, water tenders, deuce and halfs, 5 tons, and even some modernized equipment for communities that cannot afford total costs for equipment for fire suppression.  Its basically a "recycling" program of equipment for communities that can extend equipment life through DRMO offices and use it for primarily fire suppression.

Now would that be considered a waste or throwing taxpayers money around?  Don't know BUT I have been around some small communities that are thankful for this program as a stopgap until communities can afford more current or substantial equipment.

What's this got to do with CAP?  Plenty......it all part of the ICS NIMS game even CAP has been asked to participate even at some of CAPTalkers disdain on what does it have to do with cadet ES operations.

Did not say CAP is going to guide other aircraft from the air nor did I say they were going to take away FD's and air tankers.

But the way CAP gets around FAA exemptions through different operations through the exemptions matrix in 60-1 and the wide use of pilots with under 500 hours and with lack of commercial licenses/certificates makes one wonder what will be next.  There is a reason for commercial certificates and licenses.

In my business, we are already doing wide area fire detection...each leg is 1.5 long and in this State there are 6-7 aircraft with already dedicated routes by contracting with various FBO's that is already line itemed in the State wildland fire budget

Sometimes we get fire reports from the regional airlines, majors, and even regular pilots that provide even a wider fire detection network WHILE everyone is already flying for revenue or pleasure and sometimes that could be considered a cheap alternative for wide area fire detection!!

[RiverAux]

Any mission that CAP accepts outside our normal activities is likely to require some additional training in order to do as well as possible.  Ideally any such training would be identified before hand and done.  I don't think this particular mission requires any extra training if our job is only to find the fires.  Now, if they're wanting an aerial asset to help coordinate the fire response, then they probably should put someone from the agency involved on board to do it or bring in their own assets at that time.