Personal Appearance and CAP

[aveighter]

But if you try to tell me that an individual can't balance your books or order your supplies or carry out any one of those duties regardless of their weight, physical or developmental disability, or underlying, related health issues, then you're seriously misguided.  You also seriously misunderstand how a volunteer organization operates.  You also would seem to have an issue with discrimination.

Respect for other individuals and their particular abilities, not disabilities, will go along way in increasing our organizational effectiveness.  Hopefully you haven't already disenfranchised some of our better members.

Sorry Mike, you have completely missed the point.  This discussion has nothing to do with dashing and trudging, beards or physical or developmental disabilities.  It is obvious that there are many roles to be fulfilled by hirsute individuals incapable of dashing, trudging or flying for that matter.

I think your point that CAP needs people to be effective is also a generally accepted premise.

I was discussing obesity.  It matters.  Its an epidemic and the toll it takes on the body is significant.  I see more hypertension, heart disease and diabetes in younger people (30s on up) than ever before.  It is precisely because I have respect for individuals that I seek to not sweep the facts under the table.  My comments are not meant to be derogatory or mean spirited so don't react as if they were.

Your comments indicate you care greatly about the organization and it's personnel.  I am certain that if you knew a man was willfully destroying himself from whatever mechanism you would not look the other way and call it respect.  Nor, I suspect, would you cover it up with a nice set of threads and call it leadership.

[aveighter]

I'm not talking about forcing anyone out, Patrick.  I'm talking about doing something for our people that makes a difference.  For us as an organization and them as an individual.

Hammering?  No.  Riot acts?  No.  Nuts, grains and berries?  Ohhellno.

[freeflight]

After reading this thread I have come to a conclusion.  There are two different groups of people posting responses in this thread, those who want military standards in fitness and grooming and those who are fine without it.  I will use an analogy to get my thought across, they are both standing on opposite sides of a dead horse "yelling" at each other and beating it at the same time. Remember were all working for the same organization and we might have to work together.

[aveighter]

Interesting analogy Freeflight.  I pretty much agree with you.  Let us substitute the dead horse with the untimely end result of our overly portly members. 

I and others are on one side calling out "Lets help this fellow before he gets to this point.  We need him".  The others are on the opposite side yelling "He's a dead man, get over it!  Move on and find a new one"

[Pylon]

But if you try to tell me that an individual can't balance your books or order your supplies or carry out any one of those duties regardless of their weight, physical or developmental disability, or underlying, related health issues, then you're seriously misguided.  You also seriously misunderstand how a volunteer organization operates.  You also would seem to have an issue with discrimination.

Respect for other individuals and their particular abilities, not disabilities, will go along way in increasing our organizational effectiveness.  Hopefully you haven't already disenfranchised some of our better members.

Sorry Mike, you have completely missed the point.  This discussion has nothing to do with dashing and trudging, beards or physical or developmental disabilities.  It is obvious that there are many roles to be fulfilled by hirsute individuals incapable of dashing, trudging or flying for that matter.

I think your point that CAP needs people to be effective is also a generally accepted premise.

I was discussing obesity.  It matters.  Its an epidemic and the toll it takes on the body is significant.  I see more hypertension, heart disease and diabetes in younger people (30s on up) than ever before.  It is precisely because I have respect for individuals that I seek to not sweep the facts under the table.  My comments are not meant to be derogatory or mean spirited so don't react as if they were.

Your comments indicate you care greatly about the organization and it's personnel.  I am certain that if you knew a man was willfully destroying himself from whatever mechanism you would not look the other way and call it respect.  Nor, I suspect, would you cover it up with a nice set of threads and call it leadership.

I may have missed your point.  Those of us who have been posting here and on other CAP discussion boards for years are used to the discussion of "let's kick out people who aren't skinny, shaved, and like me!" cropping up about every 4-6 months.

I agree that overall healthiness and fitness of Americans is a worrisome problem and addressing it through a pro-active health services program within CAP, for the benefit of our members, is certainly a great idea and one worth pursuing.  Not everybody has full health insurance, a gym membership, and a personal trainer so providing information and assistance that our members may not have otherwise received would be great.  Certainly, I don't think we, as an organization, could force anything upon our valuable members, but even just offering the service would be going a lot farther than we've ever gone before. 

The well-being of our valuable personnel is certainly something that we benfit from as an organization.  I just think we'd have to implement and design such a program extremely carefully so as not to disenfranchise or drive away contributing volunteer professionals.  Just for example, you don't want to gear the program only towards advising people about obesity, as the program would quickly get labeled as a program to harass our heavier members.  A well-rounded health advisory and assistance program for all members, however, may go a long way to helping members and would even be something we could list as a membership benefit.

So, sorry if I had mis-read your message.  Let quality volunteers of all shapes, sizes, and backgrounds be a member of CAP?  Sure.  But let's advise all members of health risks and offer sound advise and programs for their benefit, if they choose to take advantage of that for the long-term benefit of everyone, CAP included - that I like.

[aveighter]

Well said Michael.  I agree.  I focus on the overly apportioned fellows because I see how devastating it is on the system just a short distance down the road for most folks.

It is frustrating because a few changes in life style and behavior just a few years earlier can make such a dramatic difference in outcomes and quality of life.

[davedove]

The well-being of our valuable personnel is certainly something that we benfit from as an organization.  I just think we'd have to implement and design such a program extremely carefully so as not to disenfranchise or drive away contributing volunteer professionals.  Just for example, you don't want to gear the program only towards advising people about obesity, as the program would quickly get labeled as a program to harass our heavier members.  A well-rounded health advisory and assistance program for all members, however, may go a long way to helping members and would even be something we could list as a membership benefit.

There is another situation that must be avoided:  any such program would have to be done seriously, as well as not harassing to the heavier members.  In the Army, I was always borderline heavy and I recognized that.  What always irritated me was the fact that one of the main doctors in the clinic always seemed to be the one to counsel about weight control, and this guy must have been carrying around at least an extra 200 pounds.  Certainly not the best role model.

I am trying to lose my extra weight and I will one day be able to fit into the service uniform regs.  It's slow going though, and in the meantime I can still contribute to CAP.  I've lost two and a half inches from my waist so far, so I'm on my way.

[Psicorp]

The only thing I've ever had a problem with is people looking sloppy in uniform, whichever uniform that may be.  To me it doesn't matter if you are anorexically thin or clinically overwieght, uniforms can be tailored and worn well enough (with hidden accessories if needed) to look professional.  Take pride in your service and take equal pride in how you look. 

[mmouw]

I am not sure I want to venture into this conversation or not, but here goes. I recently rejoined CAP after a short brake. At the time I was over the weight standard. I made a personal decision to lose the weight to be able to wear the AF style uniform. I am former Air Force and was always on and off the fat boy program. I started to lose weight last December and to this date I have lost 58 pounds. I am not running marathons or spending hours at the gym. I am working out three times a week for 45 mins a time. I have watched what I eat (no ice cream in almost a year)  and it is working. I feel better and am more active.

This past summer I went on a mission here in the Black Hills for a missing person. The terrain was rugged to say the least. In the mountains we had to do a line search. We covered that mountain 5 times that day. I started to think that if I had not made the choice to get healthy, then I wouldn't have been able to perform my service to the community. I do understand that we have other jobs that people can perform with out physical activity. My question is what happens when you don't have anyone able to perform the other missions that we all agree to perform when we sign on? The last thing we need to happen is to have someone who is looking for a victim become a victim.

By no means am I saying that we need PT or stricter standards, but those of us who are over weight and just chose not to do anything about it need to think about what is at stake. For your community and yourselves. I know we have members that are not able to perform PT, but those who can should think about it. It is a win win situation for you.

In regards to working with Cadets, we should lead by example. If we are expecting them to perform PT for achievements, then we should do what we can to show them there is no age limit on health and fitness. Again this is for those who can perform PT. Cadets are very influential and need proper leadership.

I believe that everyone is important to CAP. We all bring something to the table. This decision isn't one that anyone can force on you it has to be a personal one. As a society we often pass the buck on someone or something else. I did the very same thing until I realized that I am the one who has to live with the consequence of my actions. I am feeling great and want to lose another 15-20 pounds. I hope that some of you will make the same choice I made.

To better health!!!!

[A.Member]

There seems to be a misleading here that every CAP member that joins needs to be ready to dash out the door and trudge through a physically-demanding ground search, or an individual needs to be able to comfortably fly in our aircraft to contribute to our organization.

It could also be argued that there is a misleading argument being presented that indicates our presentation doesn't matter.  That is not true either.  Without question is does matter.  Again, not only to ourselves, for many of the reasons already pointed out, but to the agencies we work with.  As we try to sell our services and redefine our missions how we present ourselves is critical (of course there are many different aspects of this - it's not a weight only issue).  That may not be an answer that we like to hear but it is the reality.

Not everybody wants to contribute by being directly involved with our operations missions.

Agreed but if we're talking about senior members, why then did they join CAP?  There are a lot of other organizations out there that also do very good things.

There are a plethora of other ways members can contribute.  For a person who has a well-maintained beard or wears their corporate uniform cleaned, pressed, and accurately, why should their weight matter in a number of duties?  Are they not capable of maintaining your units finances?  Ordering supplies?  Keeping track of administrative records?  Operating radios?  Guiding other senior members on professional development issues?  Performing maintenance on your van?  Advising the unit on legal matters, if they're a legal professional?  Performing Chaplain's duties?  Writing a press release?  Checking people in at a mission base?  Writing grant proposals?  Logging issued squadron property and equipment?  Properly destroying test materials?  The list goes on...

Is everyone fit to go rucking it through the woods on an intensive ground search?  No.

But if you try to tell me that an individual can't balance your books or order your supplies or carry out any one of those duties regardless of their weight, physical or developmental disability, or underlying, related health issues, then you're seriously misguided. 

You argument never addresses this fact:

Volume 2 ("Professional Knowledge"), Unit 4 discusses meeting weight and physical fitness standards. When discussing "setting the example", Volume 4 ("Leadership"), Unit 2 specifically points out:

"You must set the standard for the unit because actions speak louder than words.  People, especially youth like the CAP cadets, will emulate your standards of personal conduct and appearance...

...Self-discipline also pertains to physical fitness.  People who are in good physical condition are better prepared for any mission.  Military leaders must be positive examples of professional conduct, physical conditioning, and appearance.  As members of the Air Force's auxillary corps, Civil Air Patrol members should take pride in their appearance and wear their uniforms proudly at formal military functions.  Remember, CAP's community contributions should stand as a shining example of the Air Force."

Curious to hear a rebuttal to that.

Civil Air Patrol needs people to be effective.  We will never be an effective, widespread organization if we only want to tap the resources of slim, fit, fully-shaven, fully healthy people.  Sorry; that's only one segment of our population and only one lifestyle.  If that's the organization you want to be in, you need to check out joining your local Guard or state militia or maybe a SAR team or something.

That's a bit of red herring and overstating the argument.  First, even the USAF regs. don't require that a person be "chiseled".   There is an allowance there.  Second, our regs. allow another 10% on top of that (= ~15-20 lbs. in most cases) leeway - we don't follow the USAF reg:
CAP Weight standards

To put it simply, as a matter of pride, all members should strive to meet the standard and not use the corporate uniform as an excuse not to adhere (take Capt. Mouw, above, as an example - well done BTW! (and if we had a salute smilie, I'd insert it here.  Instead, you get this:  :clap:  ).   Some members, possibly as evidenced by some of the reponses here, don't seem to be interested in even doing that.  I think that's the real point. 


On a somewhat related note (and I think I can veer off on a tangent since it's my topic ), another issue (ie. pet peeve) I've seen rather frequently is members in the corporate uniform demanding the same customs and courtises as those in the USAF-style uniform.  Members in a corporate uniform are not saluted!  As such, do not direct cadets to do so.

BTW:  Everyone here should be commended for keeping this discussion civil and mature.

[Chaplaindon]

Friends,

It's simple. As long as we are stuck a choice of uniforms, one demanding USAF h/w standards (+10%) & grooming standards, another demanding USAF grooming standards (only), and yet ANOTHER requiring none of the above we will continue to face two problems.

One: the total lack of any semblence of uniformity in our personnel.

Two: a never-ending litany of complaints about members who fail to meet another member's subjective ideal of what a member should look like.

Solutions:

One: Since the USAF won't budge on its requirments (nor should it have to) we should ditch the USAF uniform in favor of a professional CAP-distinctive uniform for ALL members. I have repeatedly suggested going to the 1950's-1960's 505/1505 USAF-style khaki uniform as a replacement for cadet and adult alike.

Two: for those members who see fit to rhetorically "bully" members who don't meet their ideals of "beauty" or "professional appearance" --- I say "GROW UP or GET OUT!" CAP would be a better organization without selfish and superficial people like you.

A CAP Chaplain

[A.Member]

Two: for those members who see fit to rhetorically "bully" members who don't meet their ideals of "beauty" or "professional appearance" --- I say "GROW UP or GET OUT!" CAP would be a better organization without selfish and superficial people like you.

Up to this point, I don't think anyone here was acting like a bully.  Boy, I hope a chaplain doesn't make me take back my comment about the civility of the discussion. 

[fyrfitrmedic]

Two: for those members who see fit to rhetorically "bully" members who don't meet their ideals of "beauty" or "professional appearance" --- I say "GROW UP or GET OUT!" CAP would be a better organization without selfish and superficial people like you.

Up to this point, I don't think anyone here was acting like a bully.  Please don't make me take back my comment about the civility of the conversation.

Here's a better idea: show a little courage and sign your posts.

"A. Member"? More like "A. Coward" IMHO.

Your previous attempts at contribution were more than a little snide at times, and the snark factor is magnified by your anonymity schtick.

[A.Member]

Here's a better idea: show a little courage and sign your posts.

"A. Member"? More like "A. Coward" IMHO.

Your previous attempts at contribution were more than a little snide at times, and the snark factor is magnified by your anonymity schtick.

Excellent Ad Hominem. 

Do you have any comments pertaining to the discussion topic?

Signed,
A.Member

[fyrfitrmedic]

Here's a better idea: show a little courage and sign your posts.

"A. Member"? More like "A. Coward" IMHO.

Your previous attempts at contribution were more than a little snide at times, and the snark factor is magnified by your anonymity schtick.

Excellent Ad Hominem. 

Do you have any comments pertaining to the discussion topic?

Signed,
A.Member

As a matter of fact, yes.

As has been stated previously by others, there seem to be two widely divergent schools of thought pertaining to this topic: those who want to encourage and support members becoming healthier and those who simply want to separate those from the organization who don't fit what they consider to be the 'standard'.

I'm firmly in the camp of those who wish to encourage and support members becoming healthier and potentially more mission-effective. Those who can lower their drag coefficient by all means should by whatever safe and effective means are available to them.

That being said...

Your continued lack of a valid signature merely illustrates and underscores my point - for whatever reason, you lack the simple courage to sign your posts. I'd be willing to hazard a guess that you were one of the anonymous posters that forced registration at Capblog and/or one of the various sockpuppets that appeared on occasion on Civil Air Portal.

Incidentally, if my sole intention was an ad hominem [by the way, way to use Google there, hero...] attack, I'd have been a little more creative in my commentary.

( Apologies to the rest of the readership if my comments offend; I'm just sick and tired of sockpuppets and the like.)

[Pylon]

This topic has degenerated a bit, and it's clear there are several camps of thought here.  None is conceding any points; everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I think all the major points of view have been offered.  In the interest of preventing this discussion from becoming any further offensive, and/or to save the dead horse's carcass from being beaten any further, I'm going to add a lock to this particular thread.

If you have something to say that hasn't yet been said and you're itching to post it, PM me or Jerry.