Former CAP grades vs. Duty Positions

[kd8gua]

I don't know if this belongs in the History section or here, but I had a question regarding the older grades for SMs in CAP.

On Maj. Browning's website, he shows a laundry list of enlisted grades for Senior Members of CAP. What did NCO members do that officer members did not, and vice versa? Also, was there a use for the Warrant Officer grades aside from placeholders until members turned 21, or was there some more to it similar to a WO program in the Armed Forces?

Thanks!

[PA Guy]

I was a SM Warrant.  It was nothing more than a place to park until I was 21.  Think F/O today.

[SarDragon]

I have an olde 101 card with WO on it, and I was over 21 at the time. This was dated in the early '70s, and I was in my early 20s.

[flyboy53]

It depended on the size of the unit.

Back in the 60s and 70s, the senior memember enlisted guys in the PA Wing supervised cadets or served under officers in various duty positions. There were lots of enlisted types then.

When I coverted from cadet to senior member in 71, my unit was small enough that I became an instant admin and personnel officer in the grade of technical sergeant. It was the duty position that dictated my authority and not my rank.

That PA unit also previously had a senior master sergeant who served as the deputy commander for cadets.

When I transferred to the Indiania Wing in 72, while attending college, the CAP had moved away from enlisted ranks and I was appointed a warrant officer. I was pretty much on my own because I was in a communications specality without radios so I worked with cadets and learned public affairs.

When I turned 21, I had a third class radio telephone license with an element 9 endorsement, so I was appointed a 2Lt. and the rest is history.

[Gunner C]

I was a SM Warrant.  It was nothing more than a place to park until I was 21.  Think F/O today.

We had plenty of warrants who were over 21.  But, it you had your Mitchel+, you were a warrant until 21.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Would it be a good - and doable - idea to bring some of the elements of this system back; i.e., warrant positions for those who don't aspire to command in their career PD?

[Short Field]

Would it be a good - and doable - idea to bring some of the elements of this system back; i.e., warrant positions for those who don't aspire to command in their career PD?

What is your position on this?

[Fuzzy]

Would it be a good - and doable - idea to bring some of the elements of this system back; i.e., warrant positions for those who don't aspire to command in their career PD?

I suggest something like that. The gist of the responce was "no". We like our rank.

Completely understandable.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Would it be a good - and doable - idea to bring some of the elements of this system back; i.e., warrant positions for those who don't aspire to command in their career PD?

What is your position on this?

I personally would have no problem trading in my railroad tracks for CWO3 bars and squares.  But I only speak for myself.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I suggest something like that. The gist of the responce was "no". We like our rank.

Completely understandable.

Perhaps.

But warrant grades are still rank, as are the Flight Officer grades we currently have.

The only slot we have right now that isn't is the "SMWOG."

[lordmonar]

Well.....just to throw some gas onto this fire.

There is the argument that we could solve a lot of problems if we just did away with the USAF ranks all together.

Everyone would be a Flight Officer....based on your PD level.

SMWOG grad would be Flight Officer Candidate -gray  epaulet no stripe.
Level I-FO1
Level II-FO2
Level III-FO3
Level IV-FO 4 (new rankslide with 4 stripes)
Level V-FO5 (New rankslide with 5 stripes)

But as someone said....we like our ranks.

[Fuzzy]

How about Officer grade is temporary based on position. Flight officer grade is perminate based on Professional development and a person would revert back to it once you step down from your leadership position.

That way Officer Grade would clearly represent leadership. Flight Officers like Warrent officers in the army would be technical experts in their fields.

[FARRIER]

Guys,

     Thank you for the history lesson.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Fuzzy's proposal sounds a bit like the Coast Guard Auxiliary way, except they don't have ranks, period, except at the Commodore level.

I wouldn't say no to Lordmonar's proposal.

Both have merit.  There's nothing wrong with being a Flight Officer.  And Flight Officer Candidate sounds a lot better than SMWOG.

However, I would modify Lordmonar's a bit just in the rank slides.  Since the USAF has nothing like that, they could be blue.

[Short Field]

So we call them "Flight Officers" even though the majority will never fly? 

SMWOG is a temporary status for most new guys - six months and it is history.  I don't believe very many senior members have be permanently scarred by being a SMWOG. I don't worry about the few SMWOGs who have not been promoted for several years.

[OldSalt]

How about Officer grade is temporary based on position. Flight officer grade is perminate based on Professional development and a person would revert back to it once you step down from your leadership position.

That way Officer Grade would clearly represent leadership. Flight Officers like Warrent officers in the army would be technical experts in their fields.

This is exactly my thought and what I drafted up in the following diagram:  http://captalk.net/index.php?action=mgallery;sa=item;id=150

Of course the diagram is just a very preliminary and loose draft solution to visualize what the idea looks like in concept.

Whether you called them Warrant Officers or Flight Officer, since the AF doesn't use the Warrant grade insignia any longer, we could adopt it fairly easily I think and stay within the AF tradition.

The main purpose would be to give members rank that equates to their actual duties and professional development and give more meaning to the regular officer ranks.

[lordmonar]

However, I would modify Lordmonar's a bit just in the rank slides.  Since the USAF has nothing like that, they could be blue.

Baby step Elie....baby steps. 

As for the title....Flight Officers can be changed to simply CAP Officers or Warrent Officer or Auxillary Officer.

And SMWOG is just a mouthful....AOC, AO1, AO2 just scans better. 

[SarDragon]

I think we're placing too much emphasis on the label SMWOG.

It's nothing more than a status, describing those members who are neither cadets, nor officers, nor NCOs. In terms of something to enter into a box labeled Grade, you use SM. That's what pops up in the list on many form templates.

What's the big deal? You have two related, but different situations. Each term fits its own situation.

YMMV.

[RLM10_2_06]

So we call them "Flight Officers" even though the majority will never fly? 

SMWOG is a temporary status for most new guys - six months and it is history.  I don't believe very many senior members have be permanently scarred by being a SMWOG. I don't worry about the few SMWOGs who have not been promoted for several years.

Splitting hairs; warrant officer, flight officer, whichever it is; the only difference is one is Air Force-based, another is Army/Navy.

And to look at things in CAP terms for a second...SMWOG + not meeting promotion requirements in 6 months = HUGE problem in my book. Look at the criteria! They're almost NECESSARY to do ANY job in CAP and not have a constant babysitter. And to be blunt, if you'll excuse my french...if you're a SMWOG who's been in that capacity for a couple YEARS...what the HELL are you doing??? Sparing the few circumstances in which somebody wouldn't be attached to a squadron or is an inactive member, what could POSSIBLY cause that (That's an open question, not a rhetorical one; if somebody has an answer, I'd REALLY like to know this one)

[Dracosbane]

Well, from one perspective, if you're in the program, you have to do CPPT and OPSEC to be allowed to do anything, and the foundations course is fairly simple.  Unless you're doing something to warrant not being promoted after the first six months, you're almost assured to get your butterbars.  After that, it's up to you to do your PD.  If you don't, you can be a life long butterbar.  I've known life long captains.  My grandfather was a long time major, probably close to twenty years or so.

Rank is subjective, and as important as you want it, I guess.