Quote from: Nomex Maximus on September 11, 2007, 05:16:43 PM
Now, I think the movie that our Cadets should really be made to watch is "Taps".

That was a good one that like Red Dawn, also brings back some memories. Not only did we live by those movies as cadets, we watched that one on my laptop in the staging area at the Punta Gorda EOC the morning after Charley. The two cadets with us on the RECON team thgouht it was the coolest thing since sliced bread.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on September 11, 2007, 06:48:27 PMIn the 60's there WAS some resistance to starting a CAP glider-pilot training program because of the inevitable comparisons to the Hitler Youth programs.  For those who have no passion for history, the Hitler Youth trained teens in gliders, then transitioned them to powered aircraft when they subsequently joined the Luftwaffe.  The second-generation German jet fighter, the Volksjager, was designed for a direct transition from gliders into the jet fighter so the Hitler Youth guys could get into the fight before the Bunker got stormed.

That's because the 60's saw the rise of political correctness and social engineering.  Who cares what the Nazis did?  There's no comparison between the glider program of CAP and the glider program of the Luftwaffe/Hitler Youth, except that they both used gliders. 

The whole comparing the CAP glider program to the Nazi glider program is a bunch of tripe being harvested by people who never liked CAP in the first place and are trying to keep the organization down.  Of course, I can imagine that there were a lot of people like this in the 60's, with the whole anti-military thing going on. 

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on September 11, 2007, 06:48:27 PMI popped into the discussions about using CAP for various homeland defense missions, suggesting proceeding carefully.  We do not want to crerate the image that the defense of the US is down to "Old men and Hitler Youth."

I wouldn't worry about it, Maj Kachenmeister.  Like I said, that "old men and Hitler Youth" argument is a bunch of tripe from the people who don't like CAP and want to see it disappear.  Good, educated people will be able to see that there are no comparisions between the CAP glider program and the Nazi glider program.  Two totally different organizations, two totally different objectives, two totally different sets of values.  The only comparison that I can see is that they both used gliders.     

You are correct in that both cognitions are triumphs of symbolism over substance.  I remember once a lawyer told me that when I handcuffed a black person, that I was reminding them of slavery, and that was justification for trying to resist and escape.  Same mentality.

Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on September 11, 2007, 05:52:13 PM

QuoteI had been reading about how former members of the Hitler Youth had been treated in post war Germany...since joining was compulsory.  Pope Benedict XVI was a member of the Hitler Youth.

Im not making an analogy between CAP cadets and the Nazis, but rather what would your action would be if the senario were true and something like a uniform or id card could get you singled out in an unsual circumstance.

Godwin is reserved for when people make direct references to Hitler or the NAZis that are stretches at best and intelelctually bogus at worst (you know like... "The National Commander is the new Hitler" or "Bush is NeoHitler" calling the USA "The Forth Reich" ) 

The idea for the thread came as the result of reading an article on Wikipedia and wondering.

Getting Back to Topic

looks like this one was dying out, actually.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on September 11, 2007, 07:38:22 PM
You are correct in that both cognitions are triumphs of symbolism over substance.  I remember once a lawyer told me that when I handcuffed a black person, that I was reminding them of slavery, and that was justification for trying to resist and escape.  Same mentality.

What............ how insane! It can easily be said that at one point or another in the history of the world, EVERYONES ancestors were at some time or another slaves of another group of people.  I am so sick of seeing that brought into modern day conversations by people who were never persecuted. 

I would ponder that the objections to starting a glider program were more political (hippie idiots) against a certain war starting in a certain Asian country. 

I wish we had a larger glider program.  I wish the AF sponsored a HUGE glider program, that was open to everyone, both Cadet and Senior.  I wish every single member could get at least one flight in a CAP airplane during the course of their volunteer career.  I think if we stopped limiting airplanes to only those members that are "buddy-buddy" with the Wing and Group commanders we could have more fun. 

What was this thread about anyway??

I live in Illinois, but if the Amish ever revolt....

I would leave the CAP BDUs where they were. (Too visible)
Id put on my bullet proff vest (I work as an emt in a bad area)
Then Id get the steel pot and BDUs from my College ROTC days,
Then I'd get my AR-15, and make sure that my clips are loaded.
Then Id get my shotgun. Most folks will tell you to use double buck. I prefer Number four. You get more pellets without sacrificing the range. And any extremity hit with buckshot is going to be useless.
Id grab my CAP 72 hour gear (in a 'woodland' CPF 90 with sleeping bag, tent etc)
some extra rounds, some field stripped MREs, my gasmask and Tyvek chem suit, and fill my camelpak and canteens.

To deal with the "Plattoon across the street" Id put a D-cylinder Oxygen bottle into a piece of pipe... (Anyone who saw "the last castle" knows what Im talking about) -- that would fix their transport.  
Then Id just open up on the plattoon with my AR.
Whether I get hit or not is immaterial, Im not going to tollerate an invasion.

If Im not behind the lines, Id get the above gear and report to the nearest military unit to be of whatever assistance possible.

Quote from: Pylon on September 11, 2007, 06:41:07 PM
Seriously, you folks come up with a topic about insurgency, invasion of the U.S., and future wars on terror and you relate it back to what?  The friggin' CAP uniform.



This obsession with the CAP uniform needs to end.

Amen, brother!   :clap: <--  I love that

Bottom Line: Congratulations! You have almost perfectly described SHTF.

This is where us gun collector types grab our stuff and head for the hills humming Hank Williams Jr.'s song "A Country Boy can Survive".

Bring yous beans, bullets, bandages, beer, batteries and bullion!

If a scenario like this happened, I would NOT sacrifice myself for a CAP uniform or any uniform for that matter. A uniform does NOT mean anything to me (anymore). I would fight for my family to the end. My patriotism has been "tarnished" due to our current political structure/status.

P.S. I already burned by uniform before I left CAP in 1996.

Quote from: SoCalCAPOfficer on September 11, 2007, 06:06:33 PM
Unfortunately, you make my point.   After 9/11 everyone seemed gung ho.  However, Americans today have no staying power.   When the war wasn't over in a matter of months the complaints started.   Even though this war has the lowest casualty rates in history, considering the time spent in theatre, people say the toll is too high and we must get out.   If this attitude had been prevalent in WWII we would be speaking German or Japanese today.

During WW2 American citizens on what was termed the 'homefront' served in Civil Defense, USOs, Red Cross....they held war bond sales, knitted scarves and socks for soldiers & sailors, organized scrap metal drives, learned first aid, worked as air raid wardens....some even served in the newly formed Civil Air Patrol!

Some of these activities were a true contribution to the war effort....others were  thought to be, but history has revealed that they were more morale builders than anything else (for instance, rubber and scrap metal drives).

In either case, people were made to feel that in some small way they were contributing to the defense of their country and the support of the troops who were fighting for them.

I disagree that contemporary Americans  simply lost interest due to short attention span -- unfortunately, for many reasons (ranging from the complexities of modern society to plain simple missing the boat) there seems to be little thought given in the corridors of power to keeping the American people focused and involved in their own protection.

Perhaps we need another FDR, Fiorello LaGuardia, Gill Robb Wilson, Ike, Patton, MacArthur, Bull Halsey, Hap Arnold, Jimmy Doolittle, Pappy Boyington....very different people all, but all seemingly capable of getting things done and also inspiring others.

Oh, and replying to the topic:

1) I live in NJ, not the southwest....so wouldn't be too worried about hiding or
    wearing the CAP uniform....but I would be very worried about the citizens of this nation held hostage by hostile forces.....I think all of us would be obligated morally to do whatever we could to bring that situation to a speedy conclusion....not surre how I'd contribute, never been in the RM, don't own any weapons....but I'd certainly do whatever I could.

2) if I found myself in occupied territory with a uniform hanging in my closet, i'd probably leave it there for the protection of family, friends, and neighbors....civilian resisters don't generally call attention to themselves for precisely that reason....they engage in guerilla warfare to harass the enemy, assist the US  & allied military forces, gather intelligence.....I really think I'd only get out my uniform (and it's only gray & whites, my apologies!) either in celebration of victory , or in the event of a last ditch hopeless last stand.....if you're going to go down, it might as well by with al flags flying!

Frankly I find continued terrorism in our territory more likely than a full scale invasion....but the scenario is intriguing, Major Carrales, you ought to run it by a literary editor, i think you ahve the makings of a TOm CLancy novel there!

Quote from: ZigZag911 on September 15, 2007, 05:06:21 AM
Frankly I find continued terrorism in our territory more likely than a full scale invasion....but the scenario is intriguing, Major Carrales, you ought to run it by a literary editor, i think you ahve the makings of a TOm CLancy novel there!

Thank you, I consider that a great compliment.

Maybe I will write that into a story.

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 15, 2007, 05:13:20 AM

Quote from: ZigZag911 on September 15, 2007, 05:06:21 AM
Frankly I find continued terrorism in our territory more likely than a full scale invasion....but the scenario is intriguing, Major Carrales, you ought to run it by a literary editor, i think you ahve the makings of a TOm CLancy novel there!

Thank you, I consider that a great compliment.

Maybe I will write that into a story.

Invasion... the story of one CAP Officer   BEHIND        THE      LINES

Lt Col Doolitle: I dont know about the rest of you, but if Im hit, Im finding the best military target I could, order my scanner and observer out the door and then Im driving my Cessna 182 right into it and taking as many of those guys with me as I possible could. I was not made to be a prisoner of war.

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on September 15, 2007, 05:23:04 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 15, 2007, 05:13:20 AM

Quote from: ZigZag911 on September 15, 2007, 05:06:21 AM
Frankly I find continued terrorism in our territory more likely than a full scale invasion....but the scenario is intriguing, Major Carrales, you ought to run it by a literary editor, i think you ahve the makings of a TOm CLancy novel there!

Thank you, I consider that a great compliment.

Maybe I will write that into a story.

Invasion... the story of one CAP Officer   BEHIND        THE      LINES

Lt Col Doolitle: I dont know about the rest of you, but if Im hit, Im finding the best military target I could, order my scanner and observer out the door and then Im driving my Cessna 182 right into it and taking as many of those guys with me as I possible could. I was not made to be a prisoner of war.

My dear fellows, this thread was not really about a "CAP centered insurgency," but rather the behaviors one would do in OCCUPIED AMERICA.  Am I to assume that, if this fiction (VAST FICTON), ever took place that we would unite in a solid resistance?

I think I should fight the "silent war," but not as a CAP officer.  But, as been said, we will never known until such a time as thsi was happening (God forbid). 

A thought just occured to me. THe enemy would take our files out of squadron HQ. Read our names and addresses from the files and then track us and our families down for re-education camps. So in essence the question is: Would we go quietly?

Quote from: ZigZag911 on September 15, 2007, 05:06:21 AM
...
1) I live in NJ
...

My deepest sympathies...

I just spent about 30 mins reading down this post... learned somethign about Godwin's Law (very intreaguing), and have decided to add in my two cents on the subject.


I believe that if it were to come up where our country was invaded that I would not burn my uniform, and would take up whatever means necessary to fight back.  
I think anyone who is quoting regulations about disciplinary actions for taking arms while in uniform is too stuck in the reglations and doctrine of CAP law to see what is infront of them.  THis is not a factual discussion, more akin to the moral leadership or hypothetical discussions we make our cadets engage in.  

Just answer the question and maybe add alittle more.  Personally i plan on bringing this question to the table at a squadron meeting and seeing how it sticks to the wall.

My prediction is that most cadets will vote to keep the uniform and fight back.  I dont believe that our cadet would sit back and not take action, even though there would be some that would whine and complain that they didnt get to be platoon leaders or hold the big gun.. most would infact join the cause.

Seniors on the other hand, have forgotten (not all of us) how to work as a team and just answer the question at hand and play "make  believe".   We are stuck in  a world of facts and figures and do not allow our minds to wander as much.. but there will still be some moaning and groaning about not having the cool job, or how got the be commander in chief of all cap ground forces...

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 11, 2007, 04:53:55 AM
Bear with me...it starts with an unlikely scenario... (The POLITICS is not the point especially since it is totally fictional, but rather your actions in the aftermath)

In March of 2012, a revolution in Mexico brings forth a sort of National Socialist movement that takes power  and immediately negates NAFTA assuming an Anti-American posture.  The US attempts to intervene, but internal pressures after the recent withdrawl of US troops from the Middle East makes it an unpopular move.

In September of that year, Venezuela and Mexico begin a major Anti-American push and culminate it with a Conquest of Central America.   These nations are well armed and are totally militarized.  US military action is threatened, however, anti-war forces are in power and a prolonged war in Central America is dismissed as having no bearing on US interests.  Panama, Nicaragua, Honduras and Guatemala FALL!

In Mid-2014, with help from Separatists in the Southwest, disrupt the Southwest to the point that a successful invasion of South Texas, New Mexico, parts of Arizona and Southern California are occupied.  It turns out to be folly on the part of the Mexican-Venezuelan Alliance, however, the US has difficulty retaking the area due to obvious issues related to the Civilian population.

The Southwestern US is OCCUPIED...albeit, it is likely to be temporary (a year or so) 

There is a CAP uniform hanging in your closet.  Do you burn it?  What might they do to you? Would you fight?  resistance? Collaboration?

What would you do?

What exactly is the point of this thread?

How exactly do discussions of ideas as STUPID as this one have any benefit to CAP?

No offense to anyone, but I feel I have lost many brain cells by reading all of this nonsense. This thread has nothing to do with PATRIOTISM at all. If you really wanted to ask members about their patriotism I think you could have come up with a better way to ask about it.

This "scenario" you described is totally ridicules & about as likely to happen as the U.S. being invaded by aliens from outerspace. Mexico & Venezuela invading the United States! That "war" would not even last long enough for someone to write a newspaper article about  it.

This is a forum for CAP members to share their thoughts & experiences. I understand that sometimes members want to discuss other things, but this is really useless nonsense. I don't post much, but I had to say something about this. This might be just my 2 cents, but I hope other members feel similar.

Dude you got way too much free time on your hands....go join some conspiracy theory forum or something. No one in CAP benefits from "discussions" such as this. I'm actually sorry I responded!

Hopefully Mike or one of the other mods will lock this stupid thread!