Thinking on it maybe alot of our courses in the DoD should be watered down and everything should be administrative for awards and jobs.

Practical jokes O.K!  Something where there is a potential for harm is not even close to being acceptable.

Quote from: MSG Mac on May 29, 2012, 07:43:06 PM
Practical jokes O.K!  Something where there is a potential for harm is not even close to being acceptable.

A tradition I've heard of, the duct tape to a roller chair and spun around for a minute is a tradition I've heard of. They allow the chair to stop, take off the duct tape, and say welcome to the organization/unit/whatever.

I keep hearing people defending hazing.  Perhaps CAP isn't so far along as is suggested...

Hazing is any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful.

It is forbidden with cadets by regulation.  It is not not forbidden with seniors, but should not be done in any form by just plain good sense. 

Various peole have suggested using your parents as an judging proxy.  Here's a better one:  Ask yourself - would you do this if General Schwartz (AF/CC) was present?  Then why would you assume it's ok when he's not present?

This is something I've been through quite a bit of training on.  Perhaps too much since it seem to have sunk in to a much deeper level.

Quote from: bflynn on May 29, 2012, 08:34:52 PM
I keep hearing people defending hazing.  Perhaps CAP isn't so far along as is suggested...

Hazing is any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful.

It is forbidden with cadets by regulation.  It is not not forbidden with seniors, but should not be done in any form by just plain good sense. 

Various peole have suggested using your parents as an judging proxy.  Here's a better one:  Ask yourself - would you do this if General Schwartz (AF/CC) was present?  Then why would you assume it's ok when he's not present?

This is something I've been through quite a bit of training on.  Perhaps too much since it seem to have sunk in to a much deeper level.

Do you see a difference between pranks and hazing?  If so, what is that critical line between the two?

Quote from: RogueLeader on May 29, 2012, 08:42:54 PM
Do you see a difference between pranks and hazing?  If so, what is that critical line between the two?

No. The 'difference' is claimed to exist by adults acting as children to justify their humilating others.

But if you want a definition:

Pranking is when your victim lets the air out of all your tires in retaliation and to see if you can take what you dish out.

Hazing is when your victim reaches for a weapon.

Then lets ban hell week for BUD/s and every other special forces course, fini flights, tacking of stripes, the grog bowl at dining in's, spur rides for the Army to award the stetson and spurs, and lets go ahead and ban yelling in bmt, bct and boot camps. 

No upper classmen are to with new academy cadets in any aspect accept as tutors under direct supervision of academy personel and lets get rid of BEAST for the AF and the Crucible for the Corp.

Oh and I make a motion to suggest that a bill be passed outlawing any sort of humor in the workplace or learning place.

Let's not forget EIB, and the five required jumps for airborne school, the entire turning blue ceremony for Infantry, the West Point Green Book, required haircuts, workplace dress codes, 16th and 18th, especially 21st birthdays, drill, and anything else that can have to do with traditions and rituals, so all of the Masons guild completely. Oh and military promotions and change of command.

C'mon, traditions are traditions, hazing is hazing, and pranks are pranks. Again, hazing and pranks have no place in CAP, WE ALL AGREE. But traditions are just that, traditions, if they include a rite of passage, then it is up to the individual to go through them. BUT NOT IN CAP!

Oh yeah and lets just home schol our kids to and gave no formal training for people.

Quote from: bflynn on May 29, 2012, 08:34:52 PM

Hazing is any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful.

So, I have a question(s) for you then...

What do you tell a new airman at basic encampment when he does not want to make his bed BMT style because he believes it is demeaning and oppressive and humiliating?

What about the cadets assigned to KP for breakfast? I'm sure they think its all those things to wake up a before all the rest of the cadets to make food for them.

If hazing is any activity that the person THINKS its hazing...than we are in some serious trouble...

Quote from: Eclipse on May 28, 2012, 02:09:45 AM
That's twice that the term "hazing" was used.

We all know that term does not apply to Seniors, right?

I don't really care what you call it, if it happened, I'd slap it down.

Quote from: Flying Pig on May 28, 2012, 07:14:06 PM

Quote from: Major Lord on May 28, 2012, 05:38:54 PM
Does blood pinning count as a prank?

Major Lord

When I was promoted I was promoted to Cpl in the Marines, I was in my B's....tan shirt and blue trousers. I had my Cpl stripes tagged by a fist in formation by a Captain, and my blood stripe (red stripe down the side of a Marines blue trousers) tagged by a dead leg from the 1st Sgt and a punch in the gut by my Plt Sgt.  Grunt life is a little  .  That was prob 15 yrs ago now.  Didnt bother me in the slightest.  But I would imagine the culture is alive and well after the lights go out

Yup I remember all that....I also remember having my lead sled pinned on, twice, once at Benning when I earned it, and again when I got back to my unit at Lejeune. Between the time I earned my lead sled and my gold wings, there was that well publicized incident involving the Marines from 2nd Air Delivery Plt pinning their gold wings on and it came out we weren't to do it anymore. Yeah that was ignored, sort of. Held privately with no dang cameras around. I would not have felt right wearing them if I hadn't been pinned.

Quote from: stillamarine on May 30, 2012, 12:42:55 AM

Quote from: Flying Pig on May 28, 2012, 07:14:06 PM

Quote from: Major Lord on May 28, 2012, 05:38:54 PM
Does blood pinning count as a prank?

Major Lord

When I was promoted I was promoted to Cpl in the Marines, I was in my B's....tan shirt and blue trousers. I had my Cpl stripes tagged by a fist in formation by a Captain, and my blood stripe (red stripe down the side of a Marines blue trousers) tagged by a dead leg from the 1st Sgt and a punch in the gut by my Plt Sgt.  Grunt life is a little  .  That was prob 15 yrs ago now.  Didnt bother me in the slightest.  But I would imagine the culture is alive and well after the lights go out

Yup I remember all that....I also remember having my lead sled pinned on, twice, once a Benning when I earned it, and again when I got back to my unit at Lejeune. Between the time I earned my lead sled and my gold wings, there was that well publicized incident involving the Marines from 2nd Air Delivery Plt pinning their gold wings on and it came out we weren't to do it anymore. Yeah that was ignored, sort of. Held privately with no dang cameras around. I would not have felt right wearing them if I hadn't been pinned.

HEAR HEAR!!!

The original post questions whether or not there are any such traditions in CAP, and I think the answer is clearly NO. Blood pinnings, The King Neptune ceremony, etc., don't exist in CAP because we are not a band of brothers, just a bunch of people, all with their own agenda, and not fighting for any real common cause. We don't need these things here, because we are not asking the guy next to us to live, die and kill with us. In a way, I am glad that CAP has not even informally adopted these things, because it would cheapen the real deal. This is not a condemnation of CAP, just a reflection of what we really are. Collectively, we are a  lot more "Alan Alda" than "John Wayne", and I think many of us sense of slow poisoning by estrogen, emasculating the once -proud aerial bombers of Sperm Whales and U-Boats. You see the death throes of the Sheep-Dogs ( For those of you who have no idea what this means, Google, Wolves, sheep, and sheepdogs) in CAP in such things as wanting to actually wear the USAF Uniform and ( god help us) French Hats and to have real missions, not just grabassercizes.

If on the other hand, your SQ actually does have some tradition, I would love to hear about it! I can hardly wait in fact! Short-sheeting? Ink on the Binoculars? Super glue on the toilet seat? My guess is that the senior prank is a Sasquatch or a Loch Ness Monster: Talked about but never actually observed by any credible source.

Major Lord

Since I've never heard of pranking the new guy, I thought this thread was about a new member named "Prank" ha.

Certainly not done at the unit's I've been too. 

I guess the closest thing to "pranking" the new guy is making him the squadron commander ha.

Quote from: spacecommand on May 30, 2012, 02:32:04 AM
I guess the closest thing to "pranking" the new guy is making him the squadron commander ha.

Suddenly all those other tales don't sound so bad now, do they?

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on May 30, 2012, 01:00:27 AM

Quote from: stillamarine on May 30, 2012, 12:42:55 AM
Between the time I earned my lead sled and my gold wings, there was that well publicized incident involving the Marines from 2nd Air Delivery Plt pinning their gold wings on and it came out we weren't to do it anymore. Yeah that was ignored, sort of. Held privately with no dang cameras around. I would not have felt right wearing them if I hadn't been pinned.

HEAR HEAR!!!

This is great!!!! In an organization with cadets that are supposed to be learning the correct way to do things, we have a member bragging how when they were RM they IGNORED a legitimate order from their military superiors. And another member cheering him on.

Real nice example for the kids. And you wonder why you have trouble with some of the cadets. Why should your cadets listen to you or their own superiors when you feel free to brag about ignorning legitimate and highly publicized orders of your superiors?

Quote from: RRLE on May 30, 2012, 11:11:08 AM

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on May 30, 2012, 01:00:27 AM

Quote from: stillamarine on May 30, 2012, 12:42:55 AM
Between the time I earned my lead sled and my gold wings, there was that well publicized incident involving the Marines from 2nd Air Delivery Plt pinning their gold wings on and it came out we weren't to do it anymore. Yeah that was ignored, sort of. Held privately with no dang cameras around. I would not have felt right wearing them if I hadn't been pinned.

HEAR HEAR!!!

This is great!!!! In an organization with cadets that are supposed to be learning the correct way to do things, we have a member bragging how when they were RM they IGNORED a legitimate order from their military superiors. And another member cheering him on.

Real nice example for the kids. And you wonder why you have trouble with some of the cadets. Why should your cadets listen to you or their own superiors when you feel free to brag about ignorning legitimate and highly publicized orders of your superiors?

I don't know your background but you never ignored an order? Never ignored a rule? You never speed? Forget to wear your seatbelt?

Please. As an LEO I'm full aware that just about everyone breaks the law at some time to some extent. Doesn't make them a bad person.

To us we believed it was stupid. No one was getting permanently hurt. These were our brothers joining a long line of tradition. We bled beside each other that day from two little pins in our chests and bled together in foreign lands.

Quote from: NCRblues on May 30, 2012, 12:24:40 AM

Quote from: bflynn on May 29, 2012, 08:34:52 PM

Hazing is any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful.

So, I have a question(s) for you then...

What do you tell a new airman at basic encampment when he does not want to make his bed BMT style because he believes it is demeaning and oppressive and humiliating?

What about the cadets assigned to KP for breakfast? I'm sure they think its all those things to wake up a before all the rest of the cadets to make food for them.

If hazing is any activity that the person THINKS its hazing...than we are in some serious trouble...

Hazing is not defined by the target, it is defined by the activity.  Getting up early for PT or for KP is not cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive or harmful...although I know my son disagrees that it isn't cruel.  Quite a few days, I agree with him.

So what do you do when the airman complains about it?  You give them feedback on it immediately and make sure they have ownership of the issue.  If they continue with the wrong behavior and it becomes a systemic issue, you continue to give them feedback about how it has become a systemic issue, including the possibility that it impacts future promotion events.  If it still continues, you note it for inclusion in future actions.  Are they ready to move up if they complain about serving others through KP?  How can they expect to be a leader when they don't even understand why things like being able to make a bunk properly are necessary.  Of course, if they don't understand, I'd call it a failure of leadership for not teaching, but the end result is the same - they are not prepared to lead.

Is it not clear?  You cannot control others.  All you can do is tell what the rules are, inform them when they excel or do not comply and note systemic actions on their part as a pattern of behavior that influences future decisions.  This works for both positive and negative actions - and you should concentrate on the positive ones.  Look for people to praise and praise them publicly.  Then promote them.  Those who care about recognition (and who doesn't like to be recognized) will react.