CAP Talk

http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_S_webmedals.170ea85.html

A California man pleaded not guilty Thursday to wearing military medals that he never earned.

Prosecutors say 39-year-old Steven Burton, who was never in the military, was photographed wearing a Marine Corps uniform displaying the Navy Cross along with the Bronze Star and Purple Heart.

The FBI was contacted after a Navy commander attending her high school reunion saw Burton wearing the uniform and medals.

More detail here:  http://forums.cadetstuff.org/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=13355&hilit=marine


(http://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/thesmokinggun.com/graphics/art4/1111091medals1.jpg)

News photos show him impersonating a Marine Master Sergeant. Maybe it's an older picture and he promoted himself.

I really like the presidential service medallion. It's not like you can order them off vanguard. This uh hum "man" put a lot of prior thinking. Stupid %#$@%^

Quote from: dogboy on November 13, 2009, 12:34:49 AM
News photos show him impersonating a Marine Master Sergeant. Maybe it's an older picture and he promoted himself.

Interesting...

(http://www.pe.com/imagesdaily/2009/11-11/20091111_webmedals_400.jpg)

They should ship him out to PARIS ISLAND or Recruit Depot SD and let the DEVIL DOG DI'S introduce him to the USMC, >:D

Quote from: Strick on November 13, 2009, 12:56:12 AM
They should ship him out to PARIS ISLAND or Recruit Depot SD and let the DEVIL DOG DI'S introduce him to the USMC, >:D

They really should, then he can really call himself a Marine.

What I find interesting is that a lot of these guys attend military functions, with military personnel present and they dont get called on it.  That Burton guy was famouns because he jumped between a MGySgt and an Officer.  And they LOVE posing for photos.

I wish this guy would have showed up to the Marine Birthday celebration I attended on Nov 10 where a REAL Navy Cross reciepient was speaking.

http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies579.htm

...And, hes pleaded Not Guilty.  His defense, like the woman states in the article is that he was just dressing up and that he never received any benefit from it.  Basically, the "I never hurt anyone" defense.

Quote from: Eclipse on November 13, 2009, 12:51:42 AM

Quote from: dogboy on November 13, 2009, 12:34:49 AM
News photos show him impersonating a Marine Master Sergeant. Maybe it's an older picture and he promoted himself.

Interesting...

(http://www.pe.com/imagesdaily/2009/11-11/20091111_webmedals_400.jpg)

I work with a retired USMC Sgt Maj who has a Navy Cross.  He'd kick his a$$, stomp a mud hole in his chest, and walk it dry.

Epic Fail!

Quote from: Strick on November 13, 2009, 12:56:12 AM
They should ship him out to PARIS ISLAND or Recruit Depot SD and let the DEVIL DOG DI'S introduce him to the USMC, >:D

Forward his photos to the DIs first! >:(
And have them call him "Gunny" all the way through. And don't let him fail. Recycle as many times as needed.

Quote from: Gunner C on November 13, 2009, 07:12:38 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on November 13, 2009, 12:51:42 AM

Quote from: dogboy on November 13, 2009, 12:34:49 AM
News photos show him impersonating a Marine Master Sergeant. Maybe it's an older picture and he promoted himself.

Interesting...

(http://www.pe.com/imagesdaily/2009/11-11/20091111_webmedals_400.jpg)

...He'd kick his a$$, stomp a mud hole in his chest, and walk it dry.

Interesting. I would pay money to see that happen to that lousy excuse for life.

Along the same lines, I read of a recent poll that stated over 11,000,000 people claimed they were Viet Nam vets (that served in Nam), however, I think the poll said that in reality there were somewhere between 1,000,000-2,000,000 actual vets that served in country.  What's with that??

Found some more pics of the scum
(http://blogs.laweekly.com/ladaily/assets_c/2009/11/army-thumb-480x1129.jpg)
(http://blogs.laweekly.com/ladaily/assets_c/2009/11/marine-thumb-480x563.jpg)

Id like to know who was taking the photos.

So, this cat went from being a Master Gunnery Sergeant to being a Lt Col? Did no one pick up on this or something?

Man pleads guilty to wearing medals

In a plea agreement, a Palm Springs man pleaded guilty Monday at Riverside's federal court to wearing unauthorized military medals.

Steven Burton could face up to a year in federal prison after his conviction on one misdemeanor charge. No agreement was made regarding Burton's potential sentence.

http://www.pe.com/localnews/sbcounty/stories/PE_News_Local_S_briefs15.15cdb4f.html

My comment: pretty unusual to enter a guilty plea without a sentencing agreement. But here's what ABC says:

As far as Burton's sentencing range, that's up to the judge.

"The presumption is entirely left to the judge," said Michael DeFrank, Burton's defense attorney. "The sentence can be anywhere from zero to 12 months. There is no mandatory-minimum or anything that requires the judge to sentence Mr. Burton to federal prison."

Burton will return to federal court in downtown Riverside on March 1 at 9 a.m. for sentencing.

The prosecutor said that in federal court, sentencing is up to the judge. He said the agreement that he has with the defendant is that the judge will come up with a sentence range probably under that maximum of a year, and the prosecutors will ask for the lower end of that range.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/inland_empire&id=7171196

Again, Im callin' probation.

Unless the Judge did some time in the Corps?

I think Flying Pig is correct about this clown getting probation.

The perp pled guilty and he wasn't trying to make money from his fraud.

He's probably looking at several years of probation, a fine and probably some community service time.

I would suggest that he do the community service at a VA Hospital so he could meet some "real" heroes.

Quote from: AirAux on November 13, 2009, 01:45:47 PM
Along the same lines, I read of a recent poll that stated over 11,000,000 people claimed they were Viet Nam vets (that served in Nam), however, I think the poll said that in reality there were somewhere between 1,000,000-2,000,000 actual vets that served in country.  What's with that??

I wouldn't dispute the figures but I have it on good authority that the "fakes" are out there in droves nationwide. Not only are those who've never served but then there are the ones with the "Vietnam Veteran" baseballs caps who might have served during that period but never served anywhere in Southeast Asia. Those guys are just as fraudulent as those who've never served.

If I were the judge, I'd give him 12 weeks, the length of a USMC boot camp cycle.

I'd also make him do his time in a Naval Brig, followed by 1000 hours of community service scrubbing toilets at Bethesda Naval Hospital.

Quote from: Camas on December 21, 2009, 04:16:53 AM

Quote from: AirAux on November 13, 2009, 01:45:47 PM
Along the same lines, I read of a recent poll that stated over 11,000,000 people claimed they were Viet Nam vets (that served in Nam), however, I think the poll said that in reality there were somewhere between 1,000,000-2,000,000 actual vets that served in country.  What's with that??

I wouldn't dispute the figures but I have it on good authority that the "fakes" are out there in droves nationwide. Not only are those who've never served but then there are the ones with the "Vietnam Veteran" baseballs caps who might have served during that period but never served anywhere in Southeast Asia. Those guys are just as fraudulent as those who've never served.

That's why I am very careful to describe my first enlistment ('69 - '73) as being Vietnam-era. The closest I got to Vietnam was Iwakuni, Japan, arriving around the end of July, 1973.

Quote from: Camas on December 21, 2009, 04:16:53 AM

Quote from: AirAux on November 13, 2009, 01:45:47 PM
Along the same lines, I read of a recent poll that stated over 11,000,000 people claimed they were Viet Nam vets (that served in Nam), however, I think the poll said that in reality there were somewhere between 1,000,000-2,000,000 actual vets that served in country.  What's with that??

I wouldn't dispute the figures but I have it on good authority that the "fakes" are out there in droves nationwide. Not only are those who've never served but then there are the ones with the "Vietnam Veteran" baseballs caps who might have served during that period but never served anywhere in Southeast Asia. Those guys are just as fraudulent as those who've never served.

Just as there were only so many smelly hippies in that muddy field in New York State — Woodstock — and thousands more say they were. (Of course, with all the drugs, who'd ever know?)

Quote from: Camas on December 21, 2009, 04:16:53 AMI wouldn't dispute the figures but I have it on good authority that the "fakes" are out there in droves nationwide. Not only are those who've never served but then there are the ones with the "Vietnam Veteran" baseballs caps who might have served during that period but never served anywhere in Southeast Asia. Those guys are just as fraudulent as those who've never served.

If a person served in the military during the period of Vietnam, then they are a Vietnam veteran. If they served in-country, then they are a Veitnam combat veteran. There is a major difference. The combat veterans usually have a "Campaign" or "Service" medal.

However, there are plenty that claim claim combat veteran status that were never there. Those are indeed frauds.

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 21, 2009, 06:13:12 AM

Quote from: Camas on December 21, 2009, 04:16:53 AMI wouldn't dispute the figures but I have it on good authority that the "fakes" are out there in droves nationwide. Not only are those who've never served but then there are the ones with the "Vietnam Veteran" baseballs caps who might have served during that period but never served anywhere in Southeast Asia. Those guys are just as fraudulent as those who've never served.

If a person served in the military during the period of Vietnam, then they are a Vietnam veteran. If they served in-country, then they are a Veitnam combat veteran. There is a major difference. The combat veterans usually have a "Campaign" or "Service" medal.

OK, please explain this to me...

How is it that I could have served from 1963-1974 and, never having left the United States and never having been deployed anywhere, I could possibly be a "Vietnam veteran"? Especially if the only campaign medal of any kind I was presented is the National Defense Service Medal? That doesn't make sense at all to me.

The next step in that logic would be to say that I could be a Desert Storm veteran simply by virtue of being an American citizen, since the United States was heavily involved in that opeation.

Here's what makes sense to me: If you're in-theater, or supporting the fight from offshore or from a nearby nation (say, staging from Japan or Thailand), you're a Vietnam vet by virtue of participating in that campaign. If you were in a combat zone, and not in the rear with the gear, you're a Vietnam combat veteran.

(For the record: I was born in 1972, so there's no way I could have been a Vietnam veteran.)

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 21, 2009, 06:30:35 AM

How is it that I could have served from 1963-1974 and, never having left the United States and never having been deployed anywhere, I could possibly be a "Vietnam veteran"? Especially if the only campaign medal of any kind I was presented is the National Defense Service Medal? That doesn't make sense at all to me.

Hence my description of service as a Vietnam-era veteran. I served during the period of the war, but didn't see combat in theater.

I wonder if they can make that guy do some time with a psychologist as a term of probation.  Something ain't right with that boy.

How about having him spend the sentance at a military base doing maintenance work, I suggest Thule AFB, Greenland

Quote from: Cecil DP on December 21, 2009, 04:42:03 PM
How about having him spend the sentance at a military base doing maintenance work, I suggest Thule AFB, Greenland

I don't think the Danish government would appreciate us storing our garbage there.

As a veteran, this is why I never talk much about the medals I've earned or the things I did in the Air Force. For one thing, most people don't understand. Second, I've run into so many fakes, even sitting at the bar in a vet's club. If this guy wants to be part of the military so bad, fine, how about a one-way plane ticket to Iraq. I wonder what a military prisoner at Ft. Leavenworth would say about him. Better yet, I'd love to see Gunny R. Lee Emery give him a serious dressing down. Bet he'd never forget that one...if he survived?

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 21, 2009, 06:30:35 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 21, 2009, 06:13:12 AM

Quote from: Camas on December 21, 2009, 04:16:53 AMI
quote]

If a person served in the military during the period of Vietnam, then they are a Vietnam veteran. If they served in-country, then they are a Veitnam combat veteran. There is a major difference. The combat veterans usually have a "Campaign" or "Service" medal.

For the record, its the federal government that determines what a veteran is or is not...just check with the U.S. Department of Veteran's Affairs.  By federal law, if you served during the Vietnam War, you are a Vietnam veteran. They don't differentiate between in-country or out of the country.

Quote from: flyboy1 on December 21, 2009, 10:42:45 PM
For the record, its the federal government that determines what a veteran is or is not...just check with the U.S. Department of Veteran's Affairs.  By federal law, if you served during the Vietnam War, you are a Vietnam veteran. They don't differentiate between in-country or out of the country.

But you better believe that the folks who were over there do make that differentiation, and that's what this conversation is all about.

Here is another one that surfaced today...

He likewise claims to be a Marine with the Navy Cross, Bronze Star, Purple Heart, with a total of 15 awards/medals he claims to have received- he even forged the Navy paperwork to "prove" it.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/dec/23/feds-lutz-man-lied-about-military-honors/news-breaking/ (http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/dec/23/feds-lutz-man-lied-about-military-honors/news-breaking/)

...this is the 4th person this year to be charged under the Stolen Valor Act in my area of Tampa Bay, FL.

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 21, 2009, 06:30:35 AMEspecially if the only campaign medal of any kind I was presented is the National Defense Service Medal?

For future reference, the NDSM is not a campaign medal. The name is the first clue, National Defense Service Medal. Receipt of one shows veteran of a war era, it just doesn't signify which one.

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 21, 2009, 06:30:35 AMThe next step in that logic would be to say that I could be a Desert Storm veteran simply by virtue of being an American citizen, since the United States was heavily involved in that opeation.

Nowhere near the next step, and that logic might work if you're six years old. The government doesn't follow that level of reasoning, it's beneath even them.

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 21, 2009, 06:30:35 AMHere's what makes sense to me: If you're in-theater, or supporting the fight from offshore or from a nearby nation (say, staging from Japan or Thailand), you're a Vietnam vet by virtue of participating in that campaign. If you were in a combat zone, and not in the rear with the gear, you're a Vietnam combat veteran.

Your definition is irrelevant. As I said the government determines the difference between an era veteran and a combat veteran. I am considered a "combat veteran" because I was in Iraq during OIF, and was awarded the Iraqi Campaign Medal. I didn't shoot at anyone, and the worst I saw was the aftermath of a mortar or two, and the controlled detonation of one that fell about 150 yards away from the hangar but didn't go off.

Quote from: flyboy1 on December 21, 2009, 10:42:45 PMFor the record, its the federal government that determines what a veteran is or is not...just check with the U.S. Department of Veteran's Affairs.  By federal law, if you served during the Vietnam War, you are a Vietnam veteran. They don't differentiate between in-country or out of the country.

Thank you.

^^^ +1

Quote from: SarDragon on December 22, 2009, 12:21:56 AMBut you better believe that the folks who were over there do make that differentiation, and that's what this conversation is all about.

No, it's not. It's about people that want to assign their own definition to a term, reality be [darn]ed. Most likely because they refuse to accept any reality but their own.

New favorite saying: "You can avoid reality, but you can't avoid the consequences of reality". To which I add, "..nor can you change it".

I was at the USS Midway Aircraft Museum today, and had the opportunity to discuss Viet Nam with a  number of participants. I managed to ask about their definition of Viet Nam vet, and without fail, their definition was "someone who has been in-country". All the rest of the folks in the military during that time are Viet Nam era veterans.

The government might use different criteria for some of their benefits, but when it comes to medals and recognition, the definitions above pretty well cover the situation.

Quote from: SarDragon on December 24, 2009, 06:52:47 AM
I was at the USS Midway Aircraft Museum today, and had the opportunity to discuss Viet Nam with a  number of participants. I managed to ask about their definition of Viet Nam vet, and without fail, their definition was "someone who has been in-country". All the rest of the folks in the military during that time are Viet Nam era veterans.

The government might use different criteria for some of their benefits, but when it comes to medals and recognition, the definitions above pretty well cover the situation.

That is still using majority opinion as a definition, rather than established fact. Whether those vets like it or not, the government has, in writing, established a "Vietnam veteran" as any military member that served during the time of the Vietnam conflict. It doesn't change just because someone wants it to, or chooses to redefine it. Opinion does not trump fact.

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 24, 2009, 08:03:00 AM

Quote from: SarDragon on December 24, 2009, 06:52:47 AM
I was at the USS Midway Aircraft Museum today, and had the opportunity to discuss Viet Nam with a  number of participants. I managed to ask about their definition of Viet Nam vet, and without fail, their definition was "someone who has been in-country". All the rest of the folks in the military during that time are Viet Nam era veterans.

The government might use different criteria for some of their benefits, but when it comes to medals and recognition, the definitions above pretty well cover the situation.

That is still using majority opinion as a definition, rather than established fact. Whether those vets like it or not, the government has, in writing, established a "Vietnam veteran" as any military member that served during the time of the Vietnam conflict. It doesn't change just because someone wants it to, or chooses to redefine it. Opinion does not trump fact.

Allow me to interlope a bit here to enrich the debate.  How about Veteran's of the Second World War that may never have deployed out of CONUS or who were deployed as part of the Army of Occupation following the end of the War?  Would we consider them WWII Veterans? 

I think the fakes are from time of Old, I think Cave men purchased bear claws to make them look fearless!!

With that said when I was a young airman I was awarded a medal for valor and when I went tdy to Guam I had a staff sergeant reach up and rip it off my uniform while saying I must be a fake because an e-4 couldn't possibly have one.

Some people need to be cautious when yelling fake!!!

On the other hand, During the 1st Gulf War I was working on a project out of Fort Benning and The US Army. There was a retired Rear Admiral who had his own small defense contracting company that had sold some very important devices to the US Navy Field Hospitals. For years this guy kissed butt with Nave purchasing officers, paying off active duty personel thru various means ( Part time paid work, trips to Hawaii) This guy had pictures of him in US Navy uniforms, he was a member of the Navy League, attended US Navy and Army functions. For years this went on.

He was really an ex used car salesman from Columbus Georgia who was an ex convicted Felon (Arsonist). The machines sold to the Navy were supposed to produce medical Oxygen for wounded Marines, They did not work, and if the 1st gulf war had gone Chemical and Biological it would have been a massive disaster for wounded soldiers.

The Navy declined to prosecute the man for fraud, in both cases???

You see the problem is much deeper than just people being fakes, One needs to look at the reasons. Are they doing it because they are pathetic geeks? Or are there more insidious reasons? access to information? selling things to the DOD?  often the DOD looks the other way when these cases involve Military officers and purchasing irregularities. 

Quote from: Major Carrales on December 24, 2009, 08:13:17 AM
Allow me to interlope a bit here to enrich the debate.  How about Veteran's of the Second World War that may never have deployed out of CONUS or who were deployed as part of the Army of Occupation following the end of the War?  Would we consider them WWII Veterans?

I would. I wouldn't consider them combat veterans of WWII, but I would still consider them WWII veterans.

Quote from: Major Carrales on December 24, 2009, 08:13:17 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 24, 2009, 08:03:00 AM

Quote from: SarDragon on December 24, 2009, 06:52:47 AM

Allow me to interlope a bit here to enrich the debate.  How about Veteran's of the Second World War that may never have deployed out of CONUS or who were deployed as part of the Army of Occupation following the end of the War?  Would we consider them WWII Veterans?

Yes, by law. There are apples and oranges that are being tossed here. World War II had two different service medals: American Defense for the period of emergency before Dec. 7, 1941,a nd World War II Victory for the war and a certain period after the war. Three were three campaing medals for: one for ehach theather and two occupation medals.

Sorry, I am still pefecting the reply skill. The deference between the periods of World War II and Vietnam is a declared war, but the VA (hence the federal government) doesn't differentiate between in-country and elsewhere during such periods of service.

I am a Desert Storm veteran even though I don't have a SWA Campaign Medal....it's all over my discharge and I got the "M" device on an Armed Forces Reserve Medal to prove it.

What I think is really sad about these sorts of things is that these guys obviously must be really insecure, so they dress up in a uniform with lots of medals to bolster a level of success. If you serve your country in uniform, you need to take pride in that accomplishment....just like what I would hope all of you do in service to the Civil Air Patrol. In World War II, my mom served her country as a member of the American Women's Voluntary Services (AWVS). She was proud of that service even though she didn't earn a campaign medal. 

It shouldn't matter what you did or where you did it I'm sometimes more impressed with Coast Guard personnel who traversed the Artic in an icebreaker or Navy types who were weathered over in the Antarctic. They didn't fire a shot in anger but I'd doubt you would consider them any less of a veteran. A campaign medal or service medal reflects a degree of sacrifice no matter when. That's why there are so many reflecting different events or periods of service...and the wearers of those medals are still veterans.

Those guys will never understand that.

what a dispicable discusting scum bag >:(

Quote from: 3xtr3m3gr33n on January 02, 2010, 06:12:56 AM
what a dispicable discusting scum bag >:(

It's a good idea to get a DD214s from every Veteran who wants to join your CAP Unit, also if Dates and stories don't add up, you might have to make a request of a copy of a DD214 from St. Louis. We have caught two guys both with phoney entries on their DD214, in the local Squadrons past couple of years. Both failed Basic Training in one of the Branches or Medical out of Basic and Discharged. They were claiming Combat Badges and such.

When I came back in CAP, the commander asked for ALL of my 214s.  I think he'd either been burned before or had been in a unit that had been burned.

Copies of my 214's are in my CAP personnel file even though I wear none of
my military awards.

You'll always know where you can get a copy quick!

If you look around on the pownetwork you'll find a few CAP members who've been ID'd... Their actions tarnish everybody

I personally know of one wing that had a senior member of the wing staff 2B'd because he was claiming to have been a Colonel in the Army, was a CAP Lt Col because of that, and in fact had never served.  But he gave great speeches at the wing conference - and had been a member to two different CAP Wings.

Stolen Valor is claiming to have earned combat medals you don't deserve.  Stolen Honor is claiming to be a senior military officer or NCO.  Both are despicable.

These are the clowns that make people wonder about CAP

No wondering here....Fingerprinting and CPPT .......real good for CAP on that deal

NOW how about a little CAP action on DD214's ...showed allmy commanders my dd214's...but the are schiesters out there muckin up DD214's

Nonetheless, CAP draws some jokers and these clowns are just drawn to a uniform...even one in CAP with plenty of 3rd World bling on

SO maybe CAP OUGHT to do better in getting to the flim flams,huh?

Wing Staffers, huh??  Imagine that!

Unfortunately, with todays, basic software, a real good looking DD214 can be "created". So if you are suspicious, send a FOA request, and see. Two where caught. It was crazy, one was well respected, and we could not convince some people that worked with them, that the facts were the facts.

Anyone can get fooled by clowns who lie.

After the crash of TWA Flight 800, a bird Colonel was on the scene, assisting with tasks including helping to land USCG helos.

Finally, someone asked, "Why would a Colonel be landing helos?".

Yep, he wasn't even in the military.   Arrested, etc...  But he was there for DAYS.

When I was in high school back in the early '80s, there was a joker (to be kind) in one of my classes who really took the cake.

He had hair past his shoulders, but he wore a ratty old black beret with a 2nd Lieutenant bar pinned on it that looked to be WWI vintage.

He told everyone he was a second looie in the National Guard Special Forces and that he had special authority to wear his hair long because of "black ops."

He also told everyone he was some sort of Ninja and that he could stand on the teacher's desk and generate invisibility so that he could be in the classroom and we wouldn't be aware of it.

This was from a high school senior.

I don't know what ever happened to him, but I also remember a couple of times he came to school tripping on acid.  I had fun messing with his mind when he'd do that. >:D ;D

Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 13, 2010, 05:49:11 AM
Anyone can get fooled by clowns who lie.

After the crash of TWA Flight 800, a bird Colonel was on the scene, assisting with tasks including helping to land USCG helos.

Finally, someone asked, "Why would a Colonel be landing helos?".

Yep, he wasn't even in the military.   Arrested, etc...  But he was there for DAYS.

Do you have a citation for that story? I'm not doubting that you're telling it in good faith, but my father was there as well as several of my partners and I've never heard anything like that, nore does it make particular sense.

Quote from: JThemann on February 13, 2010, 06:43:58 AM

Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 13, 2010, 05:49:11 AM
Anyone can get fooled by clowns who lie.

After the crash of TWA Flight 800, a bird Colonel was on the scene, assisting with tasks including helping to land USCG helos.

Finally, someone asked, "Why would a Colonel be landing helos?".

Yep, he wasn't even in the military.   Arrested, etc...  But he was there for DAYS.

Do you have a citation for that story? I'm not doubting that you're telling it in good faith, but my father was there as well as several of my partners and I've never heard anything like that, nore does it make particular sense.

I was there as well.   I managed to find a few.  I guess I remembered wrong, he was impersonating a Lt. Colonel, not a bird.


http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19961023&id=tHUVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=HOsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1359,6044266 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19961023&id=tHUVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=HOsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1359,6044266)

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=qTQxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cgMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3411,7314662&dq=twa+flight+800+david-williams&hl=en (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=qTQxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cgMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3411,7314662&dq=twa+flight+800+david-williams&hl=en)

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/newsday/access/17217072.html?dids=17217072:17217072&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Dec+05,+1996&author=By+Robert+E.+Kessler.+STAFF+WRITER&pub=Newsday+(Combined+editions)&desc=Fake+Doc+Charged+/+Anew+Accused+of+impersonating+Army+officer+in+TWA+Flight+800+probe&pqatl=google (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/newsday/access/17217072.html?dids=17217072:17217072&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Dec+05,+1996&author=By+Robert+E.+Kessler.+STAFF+WRITER&pub=Newsday+(Combined+editions)&desc=Fake+Doc+Charged+/+Anew+Accused+of+impersonating+Army+officer+in+TWA+Flight+800+probe&pqatl=google)

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/ny_local/1996/08/02/1996-08-02_cops_say_he_played_dr_.html (http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/ny_local/1996/08/02/1996-08-02_cops_say_he_played_dr_.html)

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=bEEjAAAAIBAJ&sjid=taYFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3250,132019&dq=twa+flight+800+david-williams&hl=en (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=bEEjAAAAIBAJ&sjid=taYFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3250,132019&dq=twa+flight+800+david-williams&hl=en)

I can't even imagine what I would do if I had some faux golden bottle caps waving his arounds my face.

The sad thing is that quite a few of those types end up trying to join CAP. When I was at squadron-level, we had two people who tried to get in with discharge problems. One had an EPTS uncharacterized discharge from the Army. When this kid was denied, he showed up later in the police reports for stealing firefighter turnout gear and impersonating a firefighter when he was caught wearing the stuff. In the second incident, this guy showed up claiming to be a former SEAL. He bought a set of BDUs, complete with all the SEAL badge and Navy jump wings, but always refused to supply his discharge, so he was uninvited as well.

Quote from: JK657 on February 13, 2010, 03:53:42 AM
If you look around on the pownetwork you'll find a few CAP members who've been ID'd... Their actions tarnish everybody

Like this guy...

(http://www.kalemis.com/cap/conf2008/img_7738_std.jpg)

I don't get it. The USAF command pilot? Or the guy with the navy badge? How do you know?

Quote from: Fuzzy on February 14, 2010, 02:09:35 PM
(http://www.kalemis.com/cap/conf2008/img_7738_std.jpg)
I don't get it. The USAF command pilot? Or the guy with the navy badge? How do you know?

The guy on the left with the SEAL trident.

I know because I played a role in busting him.

Quote from: JK657 on February 13, 2010, 03:53:42 AM
If you look around on the pownetwork you'll find a few CAP members who've been ID'd... Their actions tarnish everybody

No, their actions do not tarnish CAP any more than they tarnish the reputation of the military service that they claim unentitled honors from.  They are the ones who have lied about their service.

What happened? 2B'ed or just reduction in grade and removal of the badge.

Guessing kicked out if he had to make up paperwork and such.

After denying his claims and offering many excuses, it was proven that he was never a SEAL.  He submitted a letter of resignation to his wing commander.

Sad thing is many people, even people on CAP Talk believed to the end that he was a SEAL and one of the best CAP officers they had ever known.  Sad.  :'(

Well, not to excuse his lying, but it is still be possible that he could have been performing CAP duties quite well.  Not that I would trust him after the truth came out...

Quote from: RiverAux on February 14, 2010, 02:32:02 PM
Well, not to excuse his lying, but it is still be possible that he could have been performing CAP duties quite well.  Not that I would trust him after the truth came out...

Absolutely.  During the process of busting him I kept thinking that he probably did quite well in CAP, especially after several people gave him kudos for being such a good leader/commander.  Just think, people would have respected him just as much had he not been a "SEAL".

Kind of like my neighbor in DC back in 2002 that I busted.  He had been a support guy in a West Coast SEAL team and decided to start using his knowledge and experience at a SEAL team (not as a SEAL) and tell everyone he was a SEAL.  Thing is, he had a TS clearance and got a great job in DC working for the government.  The claims he made to me were so specific, to include a BUDS class number, that I believed him for about a day.  What he didn't know was his audience.  Not only did I work for the Government too, I had close ties with SOCOM as well as a close friend who retired as a MCPO SEAL that lived in the area.  I snapped a few photos of the "SEALs" uniform hanging in his car and that was enough to close him down.  He lost his clearance and his job. 

(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4925.0;attach=1963)

I guess I'm just so amazed. I really feel sorry for all these fakes, but it really cheapens my service.

I keep remembering the comments of one of my supervisor's, a now retired senior master sergeant, who kept saying that the goal was to make a difference and all the awards and decorations would follow in time. I see all the hardware on these guyes and keep thinking how hard I worked just to get my first Commendation Medal...and then to earn a third one for non-combat valor at a plane crash.

Guess the lesson is to be proud for what you did and make sure it's properly annotated on your discharge. That's why I made sure that the separations/retirement clerk included my badges on my discharge...just so there would never be a question.

I don't think it cheapens your service. Only you can do that. I think it reflects poorly on the individual, and would reflect poorly on CAP if we didn't take such fabrications seriously. I'm very happy that CAP does take these things seriously. But we do take it seriously, and there are serious repercussions for people who take valor without earning it.

With the amount of veterans in CAP, those impostors would be wise to stay away from joining. I mean they're just begging to be called out on their lie by the genuine article.

Then again those people are addicted to all that bling anyway and if they were smart they wouldn't go impersonating military folk in the fist place.

Quote from: Fuzzy on February 14, 2010, 06:18:56 PM
With the amount of veterans in CAP, those impostors would be wise to stay away from joining. I mean they're just begging to be called out on their lie by the genuine article.

Don't assume that because someone is a veteran of the military that they have the knowledge to call someone's bluff.  Most people that try to sell themselves as something they're not usually shoot for something in Special Operations (SEALs, PJs, Special Forces, Ranger, Force Recon, etc.).  Rarely do people try to come off as a decorated Air Force Security Forces Airman, Navy Sea Bee, Army Water Purification Specialist or Marine Corps Helo Mechanic. 

Although Special Operations has grown in the last 9 years (post 9/11), it's still a very small group.  Most veterans that join CAP do not have a special operations background, thus not familiar enough with that field to call someone out.  There is a certain mystique about special operations forces that often intimidate "outsiders" and make them reluctant to even ask questions about their background.  That's how many of the phonies get away with it.  Most people believe that everything an SOF troop does is highly classified and they can't speak about their training, operations or even equipment.  This, to some extent is true.  But not to the point of there being "secret SEALs" that are off the books or a guy with a Special Forces tab that has a "sealed background".  Even Delta Operators have official Army photos, retire from the Army and have DD214s.  If something truly is secret, it would never be released onto a DD214, nor would the person in question be able to mention; nor should he.

Back to Fuzzy's statement, the opposite is actually true.  You'll find a good number of phonies trying to come across as something they aren't in CAP.  Why?  Because we attract phony glory hounds who want "wann-bes" or "has beens" to look up to them.  In my 20+ years in CAP I have personally come across "Marine Snipers", "SEALs", and a 19 year old "Green Beret" from Ft. Bragg Number 2, a secret base in Kentucky and a "Vietnam LRRP Ranger" who had never been in the Army.  He was also a convicted sex offender.  Something we found out after he left CAP.

Often you'll find genuine military veterans who "expand" their legitimate backgrounds to impress people since they know that being a Services Specialist, Public Health Technician or Security Forces dude isn't that exciting.  When you see someone that was a Master at Arms in the Navy wearing a SCUBA bubble or Navy Jump Wings, you may want to start exploring their background.

One final story and I'll shut up.  In 2002/3 a former cadet of mine that was often a pain in the butt, along with his 2 younger brothers, mom and father (as CC) joined the Army Reserves as a Generator Repair Specialist.  He showed up about 6 months later at the squadron wanting to re-join as a Senior Member.  I was out of the area for a while because I was overseas so he thought that gave him free reign to make up some stories.  He talked about earning a Bronze Star because he saved his first sergeant in a fire fight in Afghanistan and mentioned how he held his best friend who died in his arms.  He went so far as to pass around photos of caves with captured Al Qaeda weapons, which clearly showed Navy SEALs in the picture.  Needless to say I confronted him and never turned in his SM application.

You are absolutely correct about all the "wannabees" in this organization, that are looking to self satisfy by a power trip. In my many years 40+ in the CAP I have found so many cases of this. Unfortunately we do not have the powers to be, to be able to check all the stories of this type of thing. There are members of Florida Wing that have been caught and all that happens is a slap on the hand and told not to wear the medals any more. CAP must be pretty hard up to keep liars in this organization. There are just as many impersonators saying they are attorneys and judges, etc. and we believe them and put Capt and above on them, while you have the true core of CAP the workers that actually join and start from the bottom take all the classes and jump through the hoop, put up with the BS from the above mentioned members and these are truly the ones that deserve to wear the grade, not the wannabees................Go figure............Sore subject with many members.

You won't see any fake lawyers or judges in our wing.  My wife is the Wing Legal Officer and she checks credentials very carefully.  She did have one a few years ago that was trying to slip through, but she put a quick stop to it.  We all need to do our job regarding this.  My dad was WWII 8th AF and well decorated.  My oldest graduated from the AFA in 1991.  I was Army 67-69, Viet Nam era, but never in country.  Proud of my service and proud of everyone else's service, including CAP..

It would be fantastic if someone would do this in every wing. Florida is known to be corrupt though. To many politics involved. Have you ever heard of main staff positions being filled by members from other states?? Well, some of us just sit back, watch and wait for the fall!! Maybe one day either SER or NHQ can figure it out. Yes there is too much "FAKE" now in the organization and honestly it is promoted by our so called commanders. Can we Floridians transfer to Georgia..............   

Quote from: funsize on February 14, 2010, 09:21:03 PM
It would be fantastic if someone would do this in every wing. Florida is known to be corrupt though. To many politics involved. Have you ever heard of main staff positions being filled by members from other states?? Well, some of us just sit back, watch and wait for the fall!! Maybe one day either SER or NHQ can figure it out. Yes there is too much "FAKE" now in the organization and honestly it is promoted by our so called commanders. Can we Floridians transfer to Georgia..............

(http://i45.tinypic.com/v6hu1e.gif)

Quote from: Stonewall on February 14, 2010, 02:03:02 PM

Quote from: JK657 on February 13, 2010, 03:53:42 AM
If you look around on the pownetwork you'll find a few CAP members who've been ID'd... Their actions tarnish everybody

Like this guy...

(http://www.kalemis.com/cap/conf2008/img_7738_std.jpg)

Why is that dude (Aka: Captain) wearing a SEALs Badge? I do not think you are allowed to even wear other Military Badges (Other than ribbons) on your uniform.

Quote from: C/SrA Lunsford on February 14, 2010, 09:51:47 PM
Why is that dude (Aka: Captain) wearing a SEALs Badge? I do not think you are allowed to even wear other Military Badges (Other than ribbons) on your uniform.

Table 6-5. US Military Badges Authorized on CAP Service Uniforms and BDUs
1 US Military Aeronautical Badges
2 Air Force Occupational Badges
3 Combat Infantry or Army Medical Badge
4 US Army Air Assault Badge and Path Finder Badge
5 Parachute Riggers Badge
6 Scuba Badge
7 Distinguished International Shooter Badge
8 Air Force Distinguished Rifleman and Pistol Shot Badge
9 Silver Excellence-in-Competition Rifle and Pistol Badge with Wreath
10 Bronze Excellence-in-Competition Rifle and Pistol Badge With or Without Wreath
11 Office of the Secretary of Defense Badge
12 Joint Chief of Staff Identification Badge
13 Presidential Service Badge or Vice-Presidential Service Badge
14 Excellence-in-Competition Badge

You can, but I don't think the SEAL badge would be allowed, since it's not an aeronautical badge and occupational badges from other branches aren't allowed.

Okay.

Seriously, why did this guy impersonate as a CAP Member. Why not the Air Force, Marines, Army, Navy. Maybe to stay under radar. I don't know.

The list above is neither exhaustive nor realistic.  It's obviously put together by people (probably two) who served in the Army and the Air Force.  There's nothing for the Navy on there (therefore Marines either).  A SEAL trident (or UDT if Gov Jesse Ventura shows up) would be difficult to turn down.

But there's another point.  There's famous folks, like Ventura, who claim to be SEALs and weren't.  He was a UDT guy.  Yes, UDT was later incorporated into SEALS (in the 19080s IIRC).  They took UDTs, sent them to jump school, and ::::poof:::: they were SEALs.  He claims "SEALhood" but he wasn't, he's a leg.  :D

At NC007, we had several guys who where in SF, one guy who was from 360th SOAR, and a bunch of others who were just regular guys in the Army and AF.  But here's the key - everyone acted like a regular guy.  When someone acts like they're something special, they're usually not.  I was in SF for 20 years.  So what?  I had to go through observer and GT training just like everyone else.  A wannabe will rest on his laurels and not participate in training much, real guy (that means everyone here) has fun, becomes part of the team, learns, steps on his poncho from time to time, and helps others in the process.

Quote from: Stonewall on February 14, 2010, 07:10:30 PM

Quote from: Fuzzy on February 14, 2010, 06:18:56 PM
With the amount of veterans in CAP, those impostors would be wise to stay away from joining. I mean they're just begging to be called out on their lie by the genuine article.

Don't assume that because someone is a veteran of the military that they have the knowledge to call someone's bluff.  Most people that try to sell themselves as something they're not usually shoot for something in Special Operations (SEALs, PJs, Special Forces, Ranger, Force Recon, etc.).  Rarely do people try to come off as a decorated Air Force Security Forces Airman, Navy Sea Bee, Army Water Purification Specialist or Marine Corps Helo Mechanic. 

Although Special Operations has grown in the last 9 years (post 9/11), it's still a very small group.  Most veterans that join CAP do not have a special operations background, thus not familiar enough with that field to call someone out.  There is a certain mystique about special operations forces that often intimidate "outsiders" and make them reluctant to even ask questions about their background.  That's how many of the phonies get away with it.  Most people believe that everything an SOF troop does is highly classified and they can't speak about their training, operations or even equipment.  This, to some extent is true.  But not to the point of there being "secret SEALs" that are off the books or a guy with a Special Forces tab that has a "sealed background".  Even Delta Operators have official Army photos, retire from the Army and have DD214s.  If something truly is secret, it would never be released onto a DD214, nor would the person in question be able to mention; nor should he.

Back to Fuzzy's statement, the opposite is actually true.  You'll find a good number of phonies trying to come across as something they aren't in CAP.  Why?  Because we attract phony glory hounds who want "wann-bes" or "has beens" to look up to them.  In my 20+ years in CAP I have personally come across "Marine Snipers", "SEALs", and a 19 year old "Green Beret" from Ft. Bragg Number 2, a secret base in Kentucky and a "Vietnam LRRP Ranger" who had never been in the Army.  He was also a convicted sex offender.  Something we found out after he left CAP.

Often you'll find genuine military veterans who "expand" their legitimate backgrounds to impress people since they know that being a Services Specialist, Public Health Technician or Security Forces dude isn't that exciting.  When you see someone that was a Master at Arms in the Navy wearing a SCUBA bubble or Navy Jump Wings, you may want to start exploring their background.

One final story and I'll shut up.  In 2002/3 a former cadet of mine that was often a pain in the butt, along with his 2 younger brothers, mom and father (as CC) joined the Army Reserves as a Generator Repair Specialist.  He showed up about 6 months later at the squadron wanting to re-join as a Senior Member.  I was out of the area for a while because I was overseas so he thought that gave him free reign to make up some stories.  He talked about earning a Bronze Star because he saved his first sergeant in a fire fight in Afghanistan and mentioned how he held his best friend who died in his arms.  He went so far as to pass around photos of caves with captured Al Qaeda weapons, which clearly showed Navy SEALs in the picture.  Needless to say I confronted him and never turned in his SM application.

Man, Stonewall, you have busted a lot of people huh?

OK,

A few years back some people posted some obviously "faux" photos of people from "public domain" stock companies showing men and women in uniforms with obvious uniform violations.  Things such as...


When I mentioned that the reason for the obvious errors was so they wouldn't be mistaken for items of this issue I was told by many of you that I didn't know what I was talking about.

It appears as if I was correct on this matter, that they were made that way purposely to avoid punishment.

Quote from: flyguy06 on February 15, 2010, 01:01:10 AMMan, Stonewall, you have busted a lot of people huh?

Busted a lot of people?  No. 

I have personally "busted" 3.  Met and called out several, maybe as many as 10.  But I have only played a role in busting 3 phonies.

By "busting", I mean they were confronted by real deal people and possibly put on one of those "wall of shame" websites with their story.

1.  Phony SEAL neighbor in DC.
2.  Phony CAP SEAL dude pictured in this discussion.
3.  I know there was one more but can't remember right now.

Quote from: flyguy06 on February 15, 2010, 01:01:10 AM
Man, Stonewall, you have busted a lot of people huh?

They seem to flock to him. He's the "Phoney Whisperer"

Quote from: NIN on February 15, 2010, 01:52:52 AM

Quote from: flyguy06 on February 15, 2010, 01:01:10 AM
Man, Stonewall, you have busted a lot of people huh?

They seem to flock to him. He's the "Phoney Whisperer"

Yeah, NIN, do you remember anyone else that I've busted.  Someone else that you helped out with or someone else that I told you about.  Not sure why I can't think of any right now besides the two I already mentioned.

There was our friend from Pennsylvania right here on CAP-Talk, and then a certain "Secret Squirrel from the Great White North"...

There have been others, I'm sure.

Quote from: NIN on February 15, 2010, 01:58:44 AM
There was our friend from Pennsylvania right here on CAP-Talk, and then a certain "Secret Squirrel from the Great White North"...

Oh yeah, our "captain" friend who claimed a lot of Army Artillery Officer Stuff as well as ROTC instructor and future deployments back to Afghanistan....yet he worked at Radio Shack, didn't he? 

And for the Great White North guy, I just never liked the guy and had a gut feeling, but you did 90% of the work on that one.  Busting phonies went international...awesome.

In my time as a unit commander in two wings, I had more than my fair share of flako-whackos come thru the door.

Few years back, had a guy show up to my CAP unit (IIRC, it was just after 9/11) and he wanted to join. Claimed all kinds of neato sneaky-pete stuff, went on at length about how many kills he had, etc.

Finally, I said "OK, that's great.  BTW, before I can submit this paperwork to NHQ, I need a copy of your DD-214, and you need to get those fingerprints completed.."

There were 2-3 weeks of hemming and hawing, and at one point he told me that he called NHQ and they told him that it was "A-OK to send his paperwork down without a fingerprint card or the -214." 

I said "Yeah, uh, no.  Doesn't work that way. All senior membership packets that go downrange do so with fingerprint cards. Period.  Nobody at NHQ would tell you that.  And, in any event, where's your DD-214?"  (mind you: at the time my unit wasn't overprinting senior applications yet, and I noticed that he left the "arrests" block empty on the CAPF12.  Red flags and warning bells!  I already had one problem with that a year or so earlier, so I *always* confirm that box is covered.  This was clearly missed, and I guarantee I knew the reason why..)

He stammered that his -214 was "classified."  I stood there right in our admin room of the armory and said "Buddy, you're so full of {word redacted} that my boots are turning brown.  You better get your happy ass out of here before I call the cops on you.  Don't come back."  And I put him on the "don't let this dillhole back on the reservation" list at the gate.

He beat a hasty retreat and we never saw him again.

Then there were the two guys in my wing who claimed to be Vietnam vets and had these crazy-ass stories. 

One claimed to have been "one of the last guys out" in Frequent Wind, while at the same time claiming to have been an AC-130 gunner and having participated in the Mayaguez incident.  He got busted for arson on a federal installation,  got tossed out of the Air Guard for lying about some things and theft of government property, lost his job as a firefighter, and subsequently left town.   Last I heard, he was living someplace in the mid-south and claiming to be a retired CMSgt (I'm pretty sure if you get hucked out of the Air Guard for stealing equipment, you don't get to retire at your earned grade, let along go UP two grades afterwards).

The other claimed to be an Air Force cop involved in the Mayaguez incident.  While I know there were SPs involved, his claim always seemed a little... thin.  Especially in light of his good buddy at the unit further south claiming to have been involved in the same action.

I also had an officer in my unit who, while being a Vietnam-era veteran, I don't believe was actually a "Vietnam Vet."  He talked like he was, and he was a member of the local VVA, and he rides at Rolling Thunder every year, but I'm pretty sure he never spent any time "in theater."   He doesn't stand there and say things like "yeah, I helped repel sappers at Bien Hoa.." or anything like that, and he's a [darn] fine officer in CAP, so I'm sort of like "yeah, there are far bigger fish to fry" and let it go. He does great work and his did serve during the Vietnam War, and maybe he was in Vietnam at some point, so IMHO, it really wasn't worth bothering with pursuing.  Could have just been an inconsistency. Could have been my crappy hearing malfunctioning again.. <GRIN>

Quote from: Stonewall on February 15, 2010, 01:54:01 AM

Quote from: NIN on February 15, 2010, 01:52:52 AM

Quote from: flyguy06 on February 15, 2010, 01:01:10 AM
Man, Stonewall, you have busted a lot of people huh?

They seem to flock to him. He's the "Phoney Whisperer"

Yeah, NIN, do you remember anyone else that I've busted.  Someone else that you helped out with or someone else that I told you about.  Not sure why I can't think of any right now besides the two I already mentioned.

So, do you guys go looking for people to bust?

Quote from: NIN on February 15, 2010, 01:52:52 AM
So, do you guys go looking for people to bust? You actually take time out of your life to seek out people whp perpetrate?  WOW. Wish I had that kind of time on my hands.

If you responded to this discussion with that post, you most certainly do have "that kind of time" on your hands.

Read what NIN said above, although in jest, he said "they seem to flock to him".  Meaning, some how in my 37 years I've managed to come across a small number of knuckleheads who portray themselves as something they're not.

In case you don't get it, the answer is "NO", we do not seek out people who are bogus heroes.  These people pop up on CAP Talk, CadetStuff and at CAP squadrons all the time.  You just have to be a little brighter than the next guy to catch'em.

Quote from: flyguy06 on February 15, 2010, 02:51:31 AM
So, do you guys go looking for people to bust?

Second thoughts on your original post?  Just a little too slow.

Quote from: Stonewall on February 15, 2010, 02:57:10 AM

Quote from: NIN on February 15, 2010, 01:52:52 AM
So, do you guys go looking for people to bust? You actually take time out of your life to seek out people whp perpetrate?  WOW. Wish I had that kind of time on my hands.

If you responded to this discussion with that post, you most certainly do have "that kind of time" on your hands.

Read what NIN said above, although in jest, he said "they seem to flock to him".  Meaning, some how in my 37 years I've managed to come across a small number of knuckleheads who portray themselves as something they're not.

In case you don't get it, the answer is "NO", we do not seek out people who are bogus heroes.  These people pop up on CAP Talk, CadetStuff and at CAP squadrons all the time.  You just have to be a little brighter than the next guy to catch'em.

Quote from: flyguy06 on February 15, 2010, 02:51:31 AM
So, do you guys go looking for people to bust?

Second thoughts on your original post?  Just a little too slow.

I guess my point is I am not looking to catch them. Iam not looking. I work a full time job plus I am a Commander in the Guard. I dont have the free time to worry about those things.

Why you always bustin my chops dude. relax and breathe.  ;D

Quote from: Stonewall on February 15, 2010, 02:57:10 AM

Quote from: NIN on February 15, 2010, 01:52:52 AM
So, do you guys go looking for people to bust? You actually take time out of your life to seek out people whp perpetrate?  WOW. Wish I had that kind of time on my hands.

If you responded to this discussion with that post, you most certainly do have "that kind of time" on your hands.

Read what NIN said above, although in jest, he said "they seem to flock to him".  Meaning, some how in my 37 years I've managed to come across a small number of knuckleheads who portray themselves as something they're not.

In case you don't get it, the answer is "NO", we do not seek out people who are bogus heroes.  These people pop up on CAP Talk, CadetStuff and at CAP squadrons all the time.  You just have to be a little brighter than the next guy to catch'em.

Quote from: flyguy06 on February 15, 2010, 02:51:31 AM
So, do you guys go looking for people to bust?

Second thoughts on your original post?  Just a little too slow.

I did have second thoughts on my original post because Ididnt want to sound mean.i am actually a nice guy. I dont know why you give me grief. maybe when you get my age youwill see thatsome things just arent that serious and you have to pick your battles. i have nothing against anyone on this board.

Quote from: flyguy06 on February 15, 2010, 03:00:53 AMI guess my point is I am not looking to catch them. Iam not looking. I work a full time job plus I am a Commander in the Guard. I dont have the free time to worry about those things.

It isn't that hard.  Some folks can multi-task; I'm one of them I guess.  It's not like it takes more than 2 minutes to figure it out, so no, it's not a "job" or a hobby.  When a guy shows up on CAP Talk with the screen name "USNSEALVET" and then posts his full name in the signature block, it's just that easy.  One email or phone call (less than 2 minutes of time) and it's over.  I could do it from my blackberry while exercising on the elliptical.

Quote from: flyguy06 on February 15, 2010, 03:00:53 AMWhy you always bustin my chops dude. relax and breathe.  ;D

Because you make it so easy.

Has anyone confronted someone they believed was a phony, but turned out to be legit?

I pulled the string on a couple in CAP and several that are just local guys trying to impress others.  Their biggest problem is they are use to dealing with people that don't really know the military culture and get carried away with their stories.   You just start to hear things that don't track with your own reality of how the world was back then.  So you start to pay a little more attention to the details.   It is hard to define but the wannabees start to say things that just don't sound right.   

Quote from: flyguy06 on February 15, 2010, 03:04:59 AMI did have second thoughts on my original post because Ididnt want to sound mean.i am actually a nice guy. I dont know why you give me grief. maybe when you get my age youwill see thatsome things just arent that serious and you have to pick your battles. i have nothing against anyone on this board.

I know you're a nice guy.

Your age?  You're like 2 1/2 years older than me.

It's not a battle and it's not serious.

Quote from: N Harmon on February 15, 2010, 03:08:11 AM
Has anyone confronted someone they believed was a phony, but turned out to be legit?

No, because my gut is usually right and they're usually that bad at trying to pull it off.

Quote from: Short Field on February 15, 2010, 03:08:18 AM
I pulled the string on a couple in CAP and several that are just local guys trying to impress others.  Their biggest problem is they are use to dealing with people that don't really know the military culture and get carried away with their stories.   You just start to hear things that don't track with your own reality of how the world was back then.  So you start to pay a little more attention to the details.   It is hard to define but the wannabees start to say things that just don't sound right.   

That's pretty much it right there.

cool

Yes, and the general rule of thumb is that the guy or gal who really did it, is less likely to talk about it...either because of what they went through or what they can't talk about and never will.

I know a female Air Force SP who was trained as a sniper, you'd never know it to talk to her.

It is an unfortunate, but true fact that some people you meet in life are not what they claim to be. Quite a few people who claim to be SEALs/MOH Recipients/Marines/ F-22 pilots/etc. aren't.

Organizations like CAP tend to attract false heroes. You could write a sociology thesis on why it happens, but all you really need to know is that it happens. Senior members should be the ones identifying, confronting, and solving these problems, but this also affects cadets- which is why I present this here.

Choose your mentors and heroes carefully. Not everyone is who or what they say they are.

Be careful that you are not misleading people yourself.  There are several people in CAP who use screen names or email addresses that could mislead someone into thinking you're something you aren't. Email addresses like "IAMANF22DRVR@wannabe.com" are lame at best, and misleading at worst.  A couple years ago, there was a cadet posting on CadetStuff claiming to be an Air Force Flight Surgeon.

Here are a few resources to make you a more critical consumer of information:

Veri-SEAL (http://www.veriseal.org/)

MOAA Fake Heroes Article (http://www.moaa.org/todaysofficer/military/fake_heroes.asp)

List of every MOH ever (http://www.history.army.mil/moh.html)

Website for Exposing Military Frauds (http://www.specsec.org/)

Quote from: flyboy1 on February 15, 2010, 03:37:54 AM
I know a female Air Force SP who was trained as a sniper, you'd never know it to talk to her.

Jennifer Donaldson in 2001....More info on this lady here. (http://www.snipercountry.com/articles/firstwoman.asp)

Quote from: Stonewall on February 15, 2010, 02:57:10 AM

Quote from: NIN on February 15, 2010, 01:52:52 AM
So, do you guys go looking for people to bust? You actually take time out of your life to seek out people whp perpetrate?  WOW. Wish I had that kind of time on my hands.

If you responded to this discussion with that post, you most certainly do have "that kind of time" on your hands.

Read what NIN said above, although in jest, he said "they seem to flock to him".  Meaning, some how in my 37 years I've managed to come across a small number of knuckleheads who portray themselves as something they're not.

In case you don't get it, the answer is "NO", we do not seek out people who are bogus heroes.  These people pop up on CAP Talk, CadetStuff and at CAP squadrons all the time.  You just have to be a little brighter than the next guy to catch'em.

Quote from: flyguy06 on February 15, 2010, 02:51:31 AM
So, do you guys go looking for people to bust?

Second thoughts on your original post?  Just a little too slow.

Kirt,

the technical term (for you and NIN) is "flypaper for wierdos." They just seem attracted to you guys.

;)

Quote from: Stonewall on February 14, 2010, 07:10:30 PM
Don't assume that because someone is a veteran of the military that they have the knowledge to call someone's bluff.  Most people that try to sell themselves as something they're not usually shoot for something in Special Operations (SEALs, PJs, Special Forces, Ranger, Force Recon, etc.).  Rarely do people try to come off as a decorated Air Force Security Forces Airman, Navy Sea Bee, Army Water Purification Specialist or Marine Corps Helo Mechanic. 

Although Special Operations has grown in the last 9 years (post 9/11), it's still a very small group.  Most veterans that join CAP do not have a special operations background, thus not familiar enough with that field to call someone out.  There is a certain mystique about special operations forces that often intimidate "outsiders" and make them reluctant to even ask questions about their background.

Very true.

I would feel pretty comfortable "calling someone out" unless I were absolutely sure they were BSing, espcially someone from SpecOps.

Quote from: Stonewall on February 15, 2010, 02:02:37 AM

Quote from: NIN on February 15, 2010, 01:58:44 AM
There was our friend from Pennsylvania right here on CAP-Talk, and then a certain "Secret Squirrel from the Great White North"...

And for the Great White North guy, I just never liked the guy and had a gut feeling, but you did 90% of the work on that one.  Busting phonies went international...awesome.

I was just waiting for that guy to come up in this thread.

Al,

Thanks for that. I have a new term of reference for myself.

BTW, most of the time if you run into someone who is "legit" and you start quizzing them to be sure they're really legit, if they catch on that you're "fake checking" them, they generally don't get pissed and are actually appreciative that you're making sure that people aren't trying to slip one past you.

I ran into a CAP guy at a banquet once in Syracuse, NY who was wearing a HALO badge on his CAP uniform.  He looked like Barney Rubble, not John Rambo, and I started to quiz him a little about his background (his daughter was a cadet, and both he and his wife were CAP members). Turned out he had an Army SF background and yep, his HALO wings along with his awards and decs were legit.  (and like I said, he looked like "Joe McPlainGuy," not "Dolph Lundgren," so I had to get past the visual stereotype..)  He was a good guy about it.

I legit-checked a skydiver I met once who was introduced to me as a Navy SEAL.  He said "oh, you're legit checking me, aren't you?" and I sheepishly admitted I was, and we both had a hell of a laugh about it.   Turned out, yep, he was a real-deal Navy SEAL and Hollywood stuntman.   It was a real honor meeting him, sad that he was killed doubling for Vin Diesel while filming "xXx."

It's a commander's fiduciary responsibility to be asking these exact questions to insure the people we hold up as examples and entrust
with our resources and precious cargo are who they say they are.

If we're not doing that, we're being negligent in our own duties.

Most of us can spot an "issue" from 50K feet, and can hear the sirens from 20.  We need to listen to them more.

 A graduate of a high school in Martinez who masqueraded as a highly decorated Marine at his 20-year reunion, only to be called out by a genuine Naval officer and charged with a misdeamenor, was sentenced Monday to one year of probation.

Steven Burton, 39, of Palm Springs, pleaded guilty in December to violating Stolen Valor Act of 2005, which makes illegal the unauthorized wearing of certain military decorations and medals, such as the Navy Cross

http://www.contracostatimes.com/news/ci_14680412

Probation? This guy should be in jail for a year.

Quote from: Marshalus on March 16, 2010, 01:00:04 PM
Probation? This guy should be in jail for a year.

He's not a danger to anybody, so I don't see a reason for taxpayers to be paying to lock him up. Let him learn his lesson and return to being a productive member of society.

Quote from: N Harmon on March 17, 2010, 01:43:38 AM

Quote from: Marshalus on March 16, 2010, 01:00:04 PM
Probation? This guy should be in jail for a year.

He's not a danger to anybody, so I don't see a reason for taxpayers to be paying to lock him up. Let him learn his lesson and return to being a productive member of society.

Not to mention that he lost his job because of this too.

Quote from: PHall on March 17, 2010, 02:36:55 AM

Quote from: N Harmon on March 17, 2010, 01:43:38 AM

Quote from: Marshalus on March 16, 2010, 01:00:04 PM
Probation? This guy should be in jail for a year.

He's not a danger to anybody, so I don't see a reason for taxpayers to be paying to lock him up. Let him learn his lesson and return to being a productive member of society.

Not to mention that he lost his job because of this too.

He lost his job because he is a man without integrity, don't waste your sympathy on him

Quote from: tsrup on March 17, 2010, 03:31:39 AM

Quote from: PHall on March 17, 2010, 02:36:55 AM

Quote from: N Harmon on March 17, 2010, 01:43:38 AM

Quote from: Marshalus on March 16, 2010, 01:00:04 PM
Probation? This guy should be in jail for a year.

He's not a danger to anybody, so I don't see a reason for taxpayers to be paying to lock him up. Let him learn his lesson and return to being a productive member of society.

Not to mention that he lost his job because of this too.

He lost his job because he is a man without integrity, don't waste your sympathy on him

Exactly. He has been dishonorable.

I feel that they should make him the Marine he wants to impersonate so much.

Quote from: tsrup on March 17, 2010, 03:31:39 AM

Quote from: PHall on March 17, 2010, 02:36:55 AM

Quote from: N Harmon on March 17, 2010, 01:43:38 AM

Quote from: Marshalus on March 16, 2010, 01:00:04 PM
Probation? This guy should be in jail for a year.

He's not a danger to anybody, so I don't see a reason for taxpayers to be paying to lock him up. Let him learn his lesson and return to being a productive member of society.

Not to mention that he lost his job because of this too.

He lost his job because he is a man without integrity, don't waste your sympathy on him

Didn't say I had any sympathy for him, just pointing out that his boss at the bank wasn't amused by his BS either and fired his butt.
Funny thing that, the bank wants "honest" people working for them. Who da thunk? :o

OK, I know I am late to this discussion....what exactly is CAP's policy on 214's? Is it in the regs?

It's been a few years since I joined CAP, and I really just can't recall if they wanted one from me or not. For some reason, I don't think they did. 

But when I joined the Legion and VFW, the first thing they said was, "Lemme see your 214, bud."

At any rate, I've often wondered how many phonies/exaggerators come into the CAP ranks. Rest assured this Army vet is on the lookout for it. I'm pretty dialed-in with the fake-vet-busting community (Doug Sterner, POW Network, etc.) and have zero qualms about taking someone out if they are faking the funk.

Phonies and posers can "infiltrate" because unless they're looking for advanced promotion or something, there isn't any reason to check the DD214.

So, you end up with the guy who says he was in the navy for a few years and tells some stories.  They usually slip up on their own, though.

Quote from: WheelsUp on May 12, 2010, 12:57:32 AM
...
At any rate, I've often wondered how many phonies/exaggerators come into the CAP ranks. Rest assured this Army vet is on the lookout for it. I'm pretty dialed-in with the fake-vet-busting community (Doug Sterner, POW Network, etc.) and have zero qualms about taking someone out if they are faking the funk.

We've had our share...even on CAPTalk.  Maybe more than our fair share, come to think of it.

VFW of course requires this info even to be a member, but if someone is popping on military ribbons in CAP, I think we should require them to have a copy of their DD214 in their CAP file.  I did look for a policy on this before, but never found anything.

I shot an email to CAPNHQ on the subject of 214s. I'd like to see what they have to say.

Personally, my policy (If I ran CAP) would be as such: A) If you claim vet status, you submit a 214. B) If you wear military ribbons on a CAP uniform, there had better be a 214 in the files listing each of those ribbons. If it's not authorized (or verifiable), I'm gonna zap ya! >:D

Quote from: WheelsUp on May 12, 2010, 12:57:32 AM
OK, I know I am late to this discussion....what exactly is CAP's policy on 214's? Is it in the regs?

It's been a few years since I joined CAP, and I really just can't recall if they wanted one from me or not. For some reason, I don't think they did. 

But when I joined the Legion and VFW, the first thing they said was, "Lemme see your 214, bud."

At any rate, I've often wondered how many phonies/exaggerators come into the CAP ranks. Rest assured this Army vet is on the lookout for it. I'm pretty dialed-in with the fake-vet-busting community (Doug Sterner, POW Network, etc.) and have zero qualms about taking someone out if they are faking the funk.

Any military service that would potentially receive CAP credit (i.e. promotion) requires a DD214 or similar documentation.

Wearing ribbons and insignia from other services generally doesn't (especially ribbons), simply because few CC's have the time to be
checking every ribbon and badge from some other service, and their wear is going to be purely ceremonial, anyway.

However with that said, good commanders can spot a fake pretty easily, and it's usually in proportion to their plumage.  A flight badge or a few military ribbons won't generally get much more than casual attention, even if they aren't approved for wear on a USAF uniform, but
exciting decorations, or the ever-popular trident will, or should, get commanders asking direct questions, both about whether they can be worn at all, and whether the member is eligible.

Like most things in life, discretion is the better part of (stolen) valor.  Few people will glance twice at an ASR, but if you show up looking like this guy:
(http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2007/05/02/amd_lowellcraigmcguinn.jpg)
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2007/05/02/2007-05-02_vet_more_like_special_farce.html
questions will be asked...
"They're always [Navy] SEALs or Special Forces," said Kimey. "Nobody ever masquerades as a cook."

And of course current active and reserve service members may not have a DD214 until they change status or retire.  I didn't have one for the majority of my Guard career.

Those people should be able to get a certified copy of the appropriate page(s) of their service record as verification of rank and awards.

....and be able to provide a current military ID, perhaps as well as most current assignment orders. 

We had a guy trying to Join and he showed up wearing his dads ribbons and wings from ww2,  I sat him down and privately told him he can't be doing such things and I realized he was mentally ill. I asked him about his meds and he told me the things he was taking. I was going to send him to wing to join (kidding) he never came back.

I know of another CAP guy who claims he was a seal during Vietnam, but he forgot his uncle was my Squadron CO and he was about 4 years younger than me. Vietnam was over in 1975 (most ground combat troops officially out 1973??) and I was 20 so he would have been 16. I asked him about that and he than said he worked on black Ops in PI and Vietnam, well well that might have been true but he would have been 18 years old. Than he changed to 1984 etc , etc. If people thump their chests I think they must be fake.

On the other hand, I was awarded a medal for valor at 19 and a year later an E5 reached up and tried to rip it off my uniform, he said I was too young for that award. That kind of behavior was unwarranted, and is dangerous. So we need to be cautious. Some people have earned their decorations. People can't assume all are fakes, but all cap members should have their dd214 in their 201 file.

Did you reach in and break his arm?

Thats just wrong.

Quote from: wingnut55 on May 12, 2010, 04:29:56 PMI know of another CAP guy who claims he was a seal during Vietnam, but he forgot his uncle was my Squadron CO and he was about 4 years younger than me. Vietnam was over in 1975 (most ground combat troops officially out 1973??) and I was 20 so he would have been 16.

Maybe he was in the infantry!   ;D

Quote from: Eclipse on May 12, 2010, 05:22:11 PM

Quote from: wingnut55 on May 12, 2010, 04:29:56 PMI know of another CAP guy who claims he was a seal during Vietnam, but he forgot his uncle was my Squadron CO and he was about 4 years younger than me. Vietnam was over in 1975 (most ground combat troops officially out 1973??) and I was 20 so he would have been 16.

Maybe he was in the infantry!   ;D

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823126042&cm_re=keyboard_and_mouse_combo-_-23-126-042-_-Product


I'll send you the bill sir.

I'm not trying to make an excuse for any of these people, but I can kinda understand what goes through their mind. I wanted to be in the military since I was 8. I tried to join at 18 but they found a bad heart condition (yes my physical at MEPS saved my life) and I was disqualified from military service. It was all I dreamed about. I would never impersoninate (sp?) military personnel but it is a big disappointment not to be able to follow your dream. I was a CAP cadet and then later a flight officer but had to stop CAP for a few years to get better. I am hopefully going to rejoin this month. CAP is the closest I will ever be to join the military. All of my CAP friends are either in the Air Force or Marines and I want to be serving with them so badly. Maybe some of these people had dreams or being a Marine or a SEAL, but couldn't, and that's why they do what they do, not realizing it is wrong and dishonorable. Again I'm not making excuses for them but I am going to play the devil's advocate in this post. Trust me I think it is absolutely totally 400% wrong what these people have done, but there HAS to be a reason in the grand scheme of things to why they where dressing up as military personnel or wore unearned awards.

OHHH will I get my old CAPID back or get a new one I liked my old one........

Most folks I know that have rejoined have retained their old CAPID.

WIWAC, I had my SS# as my CAPSN..   When I came back as a S/M, I got a new CAPID.    But hey, it's shorter..


(Realized after posting that this is drifting the thread further, mods, feel free to remove if you like..)

Posing as something you're not, especially as a military member is horrible, and sadly, the internet opens up many a door for posers.

There was a guy that used to be as a moderator on another cadet / military related forum I'm on.  Claimed to have been a Marine helicopter mechanic in Vietnam who served as a DI and made Sergeant.  Very smart dude, knew a hell of alot about all things military, and was one of the first members of the forum, so no one questioned him.

It came out later that he had been embellishing his military career to others via PM to include a Bronze Star w/ "V", Silver Star, DFC, multiple Purple Hearts, Navy Combat Aircrew Wings, and (get this) Naval Flight Officer wings, as an enlistedman.  He claimed that he had volunteered multiple times to go out on missions with the infantry guys, and he "earned" his NFO wings when the aircrew of his chopper was killed, and he piloted it back to base.

A huge investigation was launched, and it turned out that even his initial claims wern't even true.  Was never a DI, nor was he a Sgt (busted down to LCpl, more than once).  Good thing he was caught, 'cause he was using his claims to run for the Arizona Legislature:

http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies511.htm

Quote from: PhoenixCadet on May 15, 2010, 06:30:06 AMand he "earned" his NFO wings when the aircrew of his chopper was killed, and he piloted it back to base.

Hahaha. Just like that, eh?

Quote from: raivo on May 15, 2010, 07:32:22 AM
Hahaha. Just like that, eh?

Aparrently some people, even those with a familiarity of the military, will believe anything...

Some people are just too polite to call a bald-face liar out in front of other people. 

We have a local guy (non-CAP) who insists he is a F-15, F-4, F-22, F-16, KC-10 pilot who flew on the Thunderbirds Team, is a retired O6, never had to do UPT because he was such a great pilot and had a multi-engine commercial CFI license when he joined, former Wing Commander, etc, etc, etc.  Everyone in our social group knows he is lying because he can't keep his stories straight (and one of our group has assess to records and confirmed he is not retired USAF).  His name is also missing from any roster of Thunderbird team members.  He also keeps getting called back on active duty to help solve problems.  He has lots of details that would snow your average civilian but fall apart around career military.   He is at least smart enough to not claim any medals for valor as that would get him called out.

How the heck can you claim you're a Thunderbirds pilot and expect to get away with that. Thats just insane.

Ugh.

Quote from: a2capt on May 16, 2010, 02:41:36 AM
How the heck can you claim you're a Thunderbirds pilot and expect to get away with that. Thats just insane.

Ugh.

Is it even possible to be a Phantom driver and a Raptor driver?

Yes, but highly unlikely.

The Wild Weasel F-4s retired in 1996, and the Raptor was introduced in 2005.

Quote from: SarDragon on May 16, 2010, 05:07:23 AM
Yes, but highly unlikely.

The Wild Weasel F-4s retired in 1996, and the Raptor was introduced in 2005.

They still fly the FQ-4 as target drones....so it is feasible (but highly unlikely) that he was an Edwards Test pilot type....and collected a lot of exotic birds.


But yea....you usually can start smelling the BS on these guys once you find their inconsistencies.

Quote from: lordmonar on May 16, 2010, 05:24:27 AM

Quote from: SarDragon on May 16, 2010, 05:07:23 AM
Yes, but highly unlikely.

The Wild Weasel F-4s retired in 1996, and the Raptor was introduced in 2005.

They still fly the FQ-4 as target drones....so it is feasible (but highly unlikely) that he was an Edwards Test pilot type....and collected a lot of exotic birds.


But yea....you usually can start smelling the BS on these guys once you find their inconsistencies.

Actually, it could happen at Tyndall AFB, FL. That's where they have both the remaining QF-4 drones and the F-22 schoolhouse.
Not saying it's likely, but in theory, it's quasi-possible.

Quote from: PHall on May 16, 2010, 06:29:12 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on May 16, 2010, 05:24:27 AM

Quote from: SarDragon on May 16, 2010, 05:07:23 AM
Yes, but highly unlikely.

The Wild Weasel F-4s retired in 1996, and the Raptor was introduced in 2005.

They still fly the FQ-4 as target drones....so it is feasible (but highly unlikely) that he was an Edwards Test pilot type....and collected a lot of exotic birds.


But yea....you usually can start smelling the BS on these guys once you find their inconsistencies.

Actually, it could happen at Tyndall AFB, FL. That's where they have both the remaining QF-4 drones and the F-22 schoolhouse.
Not saying it's likely, but in theory, it's quasi-possible.

If someone was a staff IP with the 20th FS at Holloman, instructing Luftwaffe pilots on the F-4F (German camouflage, USAF markings, no AIM-7 Sparrows), and made a lot of commutes to Tyndall, Edwards or wherever being part of the first cadre breaking in the F-22, it could happen...but as with others, I'd smell a great deal of Bravo Sierra.

Quote from: Short Field on May 15, 2010, 10:44:45 PM
Some people are just too polite to call a bald-face liar out in front of other people. 

We have a local guy (non-CAP) who insists he is a F-15, F-4, F-22, F-16, KC-10 pilot who flew on the Thunderbirds Team, is a retired O6, never had to do UPT because he was such a great pilot and had a multi-engine commercial CFI license when he joined, former Wing Commander, etc, etc, etc.  Everyone in our social group knows he is lying because he can't keep his stories straight (and one of our group has assess to records and confirmed he is not retired USAF).  His name is also missing from any roster of Thunderbird team members.  He also keeps getting called back on active duty to help solve problems.  He has lots of details that would snow your average civilian but fall apart around career military.   He is at least smart enough to not claim any medals for valor as that would get him called out.

All of you please remember that if an individual claims to be a veteran, you have a responsibility to check their DD Form 214/NGB Form 22s because you need to verify if their discharge was honorable. They don't present it, they don't join. That's by CAP Reg. Got it!

Don't try to dispell a myth unless you are really familiar with the military services. As far as this guy's concerned. It is possible to have that many aircraft under your belt. If he was for real, he'd be a walking AEO. The key to the spoof, however, lies in the fact that he didn't complete UPT and the Thunderbirds have no public knowledge of him.

Remember, a pilot can't join the CAP and walk out on the ramp and take off in a CAP aircraft. Where do you think that rule originated from....Big Blue! Do you really think that the Air Force is going to let someone walk off the street with a pilot's license and just climb into the cockpit of even an old F-4?

I know a VERY RESPECTED local doctor who intentionally washed out of UPT at the T-38 point because of the assignment that was waiting for him. He wanted transports, they wanted him in fighters. He became a Titan missile launch officer instead and completed much of his medical school in a launch capsule. True story, he's not a fake.

As far as the idiot who claimed to earn Naval Flight Officer wings for piloting a helicopter back after a mission...come on! How? I was trained on A/D as a mission essential aircrew member and scanner on HH-3s and HC-130s. I didn't get any wings....just a bunch of flight gear and some cool experiences.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/18/nyregion/18blumenthal.html?hp=&pagewanted=all

QuoteAt a ceremony honoring veterans and senior citizens who sent presents to soldiers overseas, Attorney General Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut rose and spoke of an earlier time in his life.

"We have learned something important since the days that I served in Vietnam," Mr. Blumenthal said to the group gathered in Norwalk in March 2008. "And you exemplify it. Whatever we think about the war, whatever we call it — Afghanistan or Iraq — we owe our military men and women unconditional support."

There was one problem: Mr. Blumenthal, a Democrat now running for the United States Senate, never served in Vietnam. He obtained at least five military deferments from 1965 to 1970 and took repeated steps that enabled him to avoid going to war, according to records.

Ooops

Ooops, too. You're fogetting the part that said he was in the Marine Corps Reserve....Vietnam Era

Why can't people just be proud of serving when they did, even though this guy probably only scored a National Defense Service Medal and a Marine Corps Reserve Good Conduct Medal.

What bothers me is that the VFW allowed Blumenthal to use a post to offer excuses - no apologies.

He's not even eligible for VFW membership, so why is that organization (by all appearances) defending him?

(Full disclosure: I am a VFW member, and I have e-mailed the national HQ in Kansas City to register my displeasure).

Quote from: flyboy1 on May 18, 2010, 09:24:40 PM
Ooops, too. You're fogetting the part that said he was in the Marine Corps Reserve....Vietnam Era

I didn't forget anything. His quote didn't say "I served during the Vietnam era" ... which he very much did ... he said "the days that I served in Vietnam" ... he's the one who forgot.

Quote from: WheelsUp on May 18, 2010, 09:34:09 PM
He's not even eligible for VFW membership, so why is that organization (by all appearances) defending him?

Maybe because they know him and remember all the years he DIDN"T claim to be a Vietnam vet while supporting them and don't want to condemn him for a slip in one speech??  This is just partisan politics - not stolen valor.  Getting all kinds of press now but was ignored when it happened over TWO years ago.

(Full Disclosure - I qualify for membership in the VFW but have not joined)

I've been looking and trying to find what exactly he said, and where. The impression I'm getting is that he sure liked to *imply* he was in Vietnam, and once or twice he accidentally said that he was.

If I ever start calling myself an "Afghanistan-era veteran," someone shoot me. ::)

Blumenthal is very busy making sure he appears on the local news at least once a week. He is probably the most recognized public official in Connecticut, other than the governor. Every word he speaks is carefully thought out and rehearsed for the cameras. As someone who has watched his performances over the years, I find it highly unlikely that he "misspoke" not once, but several times, when talking about his service.

It's really unfortunate that he couldn't simply tell the truth. He served honorably in the reserves when he clearly had the political clout to avoid the military. Maybe that story didn't sound as good on television?

Sounds like he should be named Bluderitall instead..

An even more serious case of stolen valor/stolen honor: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_army_infiltrator

Quote from: Fifinella on May 21, 2010, 02:40:36 PM
An even more serious case of stolen valor/stolen honor: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_army_infiltrator

I know things work differently in the Guard/Reserves, but how is it that no one checked ANY records? It seems that they needed someone, and took the guy out of desperation.

Most people are not conditioned to check facts or be suspicious.  Fortunately or unfortunately, most people still take others at face value.  Sometimes I think people are looking for "heros" and are thrilled when they find one.  Or think they found one.  Even those phonies who are so over the top with their medals and decorations it makes most of us laugh. 

Quote from: Flying Pig on May 21, 2010, 02:57:55 PM
Most people are not conditioned to check facts or be suspicious.

The guy probably had to do MEPS "again", and go through the background checks...something somewhere in the system failed.

Quote from: Fifinella on May 21, 2010, 02:40:36 PM
An even more serious case of stolen valor/stolen honor

It's a [darn]ing indictment of the Army personnel system. This guy bluffed his way into a leadership position, and could have gotten someone killed.
  And in true Army fashion, they are circling the wagons rather than addressing the problem.
  I'm aware of a similar case in which a guy who was kicked out of the Army forged/altered a DD214 to change his reenlistment code to something positive...and he managed to get back in.
 

If you read the story about the Army (supposed former Marine) impostor, you'll notice that in the picture, his Navy and Marine Corps Medal ribbon (top left) is upside down.

DOH!

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on May 21, 2010, 03:00:01 PM

Quote from: Flying Pig on May 21, 2010, 02:57:55 PM
Most people are not conditioned to check facts or be suspicious.

The guy probably had to do MEPS "again", and go through the background checks...something somewhere in the system failed.

Prior service entering the Guard or Reserve don't go through MEPS, but how he got a security clearance which takes a minimum of a year for a secret and 2-3 years for a Top Secret is a mystery.

Quote from: Fifinella on May 21, 2010, 02:40:36 PM
An even more serious case of stolen valor/stolen honor: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_army_infiltrator

Here's a question...

Was it his fake medals, etc., that impressed the recruiter enough to get him where he landed, or was it that he pushed too
hard with the story and had he flown lower no one would have noticed and he'd probably be in Iraq?

I think the recruiter just failed to do a routine check of this guy's forged 214 that he submitted. The services don't seem to talk to each other too much. On the other side of that coin, Army recruiters are definitely under pressure to bring in new folks.

But when I came back in to the National Guard in 2001, my recruiter did check my previous Army active-duty records. Perhaps different recruiting commands (Active, Reserve, NG) have different procedures.

And if this guy, as you said, had "flown a little bit lower," he may have been in the position of leading soldiers in combat. And that scares the hell out of me. 

Quote from: WheelsUp on May 21, 2010, 03:43:21 PM
And if this guy, as you said, had "flown a little bit lower," he may have been in the position of leading soldiers in combat. And that scares the hell out of me. 

Oh come on! He had like 6+ weeks of Marine OCS training under his belt! I'm sure he watched some movies as well!

[/fearful sarcasm]

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on May 21, 2010, 04:34:44 PM
Oh come on! He had like 6+ weeks of Marine OCS training under his belt! I'm sure he watched some movies as well!

[/fearful sarcasm]

"My name is Gunnery Sergeant Hartman!"

Here's another question:

What does a "Corps Support Airplane Company" do?

I've spent my fair share of time floating around a Corps Headquarters ("America's Corps!") , but I'm having trouble imagining what this unit does.

Any ideas?

I checked that out, and it IS an actual USAR unit. Now, I don't know which Corps it belongs to, but as far as I can tell, that's the actual name of the unit. It's listed on the Fort Worth-area Navy base's list of tenant units.

I was in the Army for nearly eight years, and never heard of such a unit name, either.

Quote from: Fifinella on May 21, 2010, 02:40:36 PM
An even more serious case of stolen valor/stolen honor: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_army_infiltrator

Makes you wonder who slipped through and is still active.

Quote from: Ned on May 21, 2010, 05:06:54 PM
What does a "Corps Support Airplane Company" do?

Quote from: WheelsUp on May 21, 2010, 05:09:39 PM
I checked that out, and it IS an actual USAR unit.

I couldn't find it.  I did find the Army Reserve Fixed Wing Detachment flying RC-12 Guardrails and the B Co, 90th Aviation Support Battalion which provides helicopter support.  I think the reporter just garbled the unit name because all the hits I got were related to the fake Marine.   My money is on the B Co, 90th ASB since the RC-12 should have better background investigations.

I would assume that a Corps Support Airplane Company would provide high level maintenance for A/C assigned to the Corps and subordinate units.

All, I dug it up again, and it is listed as "Corps Support Airplane Company" on the NAS Fort Worth website, toward the bottom, under "Tenant Units"
https://www.cnic.navy.mil/FortWorth/AboutCNIC/InstallationDirectory/index.htm

^^^Same phone number as the Army Reserve Fixed Wing Detachment listed on the Army Commands page.  They would be a Corps level asset flying fixed wing aircraft (RC-12).

I met one of the happiest pilots in the Air Force who was assigned to fly the Huron in support of the diplomatic missions in West Africa.  Interestingly, the co-pilot was an Army aviator.  They spend their lives flying dipolomatic officers hither and yon in areas without a lot of air traffic.

Happy guys. 

And a beautifully appointed aircraft.

Quote from: Ned on May 21, 2010, 10:56:55 PM
I met one of the happiest pilots in the Air Force who was assigned to fly the Huron in support of the diplomatic missions in West Africa.  Interestingly, the co-pilot was an Army aviator.  They spend their lives flying dipolomatic officers hither and yon in areas without a lot of air traffic.

Happy guys. 

And a beautifully appointed aircraft.

They're probably assigned as Assistant Air and Military Attaches

Quote from: Cecil DP on May 22, 2010, 01:30:21 AM

Quote from: Ned on May 21, 2010, 10:56:55 PM
I met one of the happiest pilots in the Air Force who was assigned to fly the Huron in support of the diplomatic missions in West Africa.  Interestingly, the co-pilot was an Army aviator.  They spend their lives flying dipolomatic officers hither and yon in areas without a lot of air traffic.

Happy guys. 

And a beautifully appointed aircraft.

They're probably assigned as Assistant Air and Military Attaches

They're usually assigned to the 99th Airlift Squadron (AMC) and are attached to the Embassy.

Negative  --  C-12 aircraft associated with foreign service posts are assigned to the respective Defense Attache Office (DAO).  Their primary purpose is to facilitate the multiple missions assigned to the Defense and Service attaches, both in the country where assigned and in direct support of other DAOs within a defined region.  Attaches assigned to a DAO where a C-12 is located are fixed and rotary-wing pilots drawn from the respective service responsible for the attache billets.  Transition training for C-12 flight crewmembers is conducted at Fort Rucker, AL.  Having been assigned to three DAOs in Western and Central Africa, I've spent quite a few hours in these aircraft. 

^^^ Correct.  Several of my pilot type attache friends all flew the C-12 in their assigned countrys.   

Hey you Marine Types out there.

Saw some guy today at the mall in BDUs.  Not MARPATS....BDUs.   He was wearing it right...sleeves rolled marine style....right boots, bloused right.

He looked a little heavey and his hair cut was a little long (but still in regs).....he just gave me a bad vibe.

I though maybe he was a Marine Reserve or something who has not tranistioned to the MARPATs....so the question....are there any BDU's still out there? 

Quote from: lordmonar on May 23, 2010, 05:18:02 AM
I though maybe he was a Marine Reserve or something who has not tranistioned to the MARPATs....so the question....are there any BDU's still out there?

Pat, are you sure he was a Marine?  AFAIK, they've all transitioned...years ago.  But I think the Navy is still rocking the BDUs...as they transition too.

Quote from: Ranger75 on May 23, 2010, 12:50:12 AM
Negative  --  C-12 aircraft associated with foreign service posts are assigned to the respective Defense Attache Office (DAO).  Their primary purpose is to facilitate the multiple missions assigned to the Defense and Service attaches, both in the country where assigned and in direct support of other DAOs within a defined region.  Attaches assigned to a DAO where a C-12 is located are fixed and rotary-wing pilots drawn from the respective service responsible for the attache billets.  Transition training for C-12 flight crewmembers is conducted at Fort Rucker, AL.  Having been assigned to three DAOs in Western and Central Africa, I've spent quite a few hours in these aircraft.

And the pilots in Europe/Africa are administratively assigned to the 99th AS at Ramstein.
They report to the DAO at their embassy, but their stan-eval records and flying time records are back at Ramstein.
The folks who give them their check rides are out of Ramstein too.

Quote from: shorning on May 23, 2010, 05:26:34 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on May 23, 2010, 05:18:02 AM
I though maybe he was a Marine Reserve or something who has not tranistioned to the MARPATs....so the question....are there any BDU's still out there?

Pat, are you sure he was a Marine?  AFAIK, they've all transitioned...years ago.  But I think the Navy is still rocking the BDUs...as they transition too.

Not 100% on the service.  I was too far to see if he had Marine or Navy insignia.  I too thought the Marines had transitioned already...and the Navy was moveing over fast now....like I said...it just left me with a weird feelings.

Are there any recruiting stations in that mall or reasons why he'd be sporting BDUs there?

I can tell you he was not a Marine. Not walking around a mall in BDU's. Unlike the Army, Marines are not to be out in the public wearing the BDU's. I for one can't stand to see everyone in the Army wearing these uniforms all over. Almost anytime you see them they are not wearing any kind of dress uniform, from walking around the mall or even at meetings. To me this looks so sloppy, it's like they don't have any respect in what they wear. Or maybe it's just they are too lazy to wear anything that doesn't have everything sewn on

Quote from: Marshalus on May 23, 2010, 02:27:38 PM
Are there any recruiting stations in that mall or reasons why he'd be sporting BDUs there?

You will not see a Marine Corp recruiter wearing his BDU's in the office. It's not allowed

Young Marine?

Quote from: Gung Ho on May 23, 2010, 02:28:27 PM
I can tell you he was not a Marine. Not walking around a mall in BDU's. Unlike the Army, Marines are not to be out in the public wearing the BDU's. I for one can't stand to see everyone in the Army wearing these uniforms all over. Almost anytime you see them they are not wearing any kind of dress uniform, from walking around the mall or even at meetings. To me this looks so sloppy, it's like they don't have any respect in what they wear. Or maybe it's just they are too lazy to wear anything that doesn't have everything sewn on

That's what I was thinking, come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen a Marine (even friends and people I know) in BDU/MARPAT. Always khaki/green or dress blues.

The only time you might see them is filling up on gas if it at a pay at the pump. They can't go into a station to pay for gas unless it's an emergency. They are not to be in the public in camo, period. Stopping for gas is the only thing allowed and as I put it that's only if they can pay at the pump

When I was a young LCPL, I had just bought a truck and decided I was going to go off base for lunch.  In my cammies.  An older gentleman who ended up being an off duty 1st Sgt  tapped me on the shoulder, explained the severity of my actions and told me to get back on base and never do it again.  I walked out and never even got to eat.  And I had paid for it already. :'(

Also, Marines havnt worn BDUs in years. You wont see a Marine wearing them.  The Marines did the transition all at once.  They didnt allow a 3yr phase in or anything like that. One day it was cammies, the next day it was MARPATs if I recall correctly.

Quote from: Flying Pig on May 23, 2010, 03:30:55 PM
Also, Marines havnt worn BDUs in years.

The last time I saw a Marine in BDUs was about 2 years ago.  He was serving on an aircraft carrier as part of the police force.  The Navy guys were in their utilities (dark blue pants, lighter blue shirt) and all the Marine police officers were in BDUs.

I have seen some Seabee reservists still wearing the BDU's