There is an airshow coming up and I want to buy a Camelbak. Are there any regulations about what color a Camelbak can be? I've heard before they have to be either black or camoflauge.
Quote from: CAPM 39-1 Table 2-5. Clothing/Accessory Standards17 "Camel Pack" Water Containers Authorized for use with CAP field uniform or BDU only, in hot
weather conditions, with or without built-in backpack. Will be black, brown, or camouflaged.
does CAP make an issue about it havening a brad name on it. I know the army is bad about it, we acually have to remove brand labels from item, like our camel baks, god forbid if you wear a pair of okleays and it have to O on them.
Thank you.
Quote from: hatentx on June 22, 2008, 12:49:42 AM
does CAP make an issue about it havening a brad name on it. I know the army is bad about it, we acually have to remove brand labels from item, like our camel baks, god forbid if you wear a pair of okleays and it have to O on them.
The clothing accessory standards aren't that specfic about branding for most accessories except eyeware which must be "Free of ornamentation on frames and lenses." Some others will say things like plain black though.
So MARPAT/ACU/ABU pattern is out?
I have heard Cadets arguing about wearing their ACU/ foliage green ones with Officers at ENC. I honestly don't know what to say, because the reg is not clear what camo pattern. Common sense would dictate our BDU pattern, but again, 39-1 (not very clear.......)
We should allow the new ABU/foliage green pattern though. Figuring, (once again common sense) that CAP will eventually go to that flavor of uniform in the not so distant future.
Honestly, as long as the Cadets and Seniors have water and they are drinking it, color or pattern should not matter. (Orange camelbaks for all CAP Rangers....woo-hoo)
I think it goes to intent... We currently wear Woodland camoflauged BDUs... so any other camo pattern is out "To present the proper military image."
Mine is black BTW.
Black is authorized with BDU and ABU in USAF and will be in CAP, so why bother getting anything else?
Quote from: hatentx on June 22, 2008, 12:49:42 AM
does CAP make an issue about it havening a brad name on it. I know the army is bad about it, we acually have to remove brand labels from item, like our camel baks, god forbid if you wear a pair of okleays and it have to O on them.
Must be your installation. In the Army Guard it hasn't been a problem for anyone. Same on Ft Jackson and Ft Eustiss, at Camp Swift, and even here at Ft Sill. Most of the RFI comfort items that we got issued last week had all kinds of advertising on them.
Personally, I remove the labels, but that's just me as I don't care for them. Everyone else here still has them on, and many have wondered why I removed mine. It hasn't been an issue here at all.
Quote from: Hawk200 on June 22, 2008, 01:44:09 AM
Quote from: hatentx on June 22, 2008, 12:49:42 AM
does CAP make an issue about it havening a brad name on it. I know the army is bad about it, we acually have to remove brand labels from item, like our camel baks, god forbid if you wear a pair of okleays and it have to O on them.
Must be your installation. In the Army Guard it hasn't been a problem for anyone. Same on Ft Jackson and Ft Eustiss, at Camp Swift, and even here at Ft Sill. Most of the RFI comfort items that we got issued last week had all kinds of advertising on them.
Personally, I remove the labels, but that's just me as I don't care for them. Everyone else here still has them on, and many have wondered why I removed mine. It hasn't been an issue here at all.
No that is what we laughed at as well. We got issued all this gear with logos and such on them and then we are told we could not wear them. I must go into theater with ballitic eye wear and were issued the Okeley M Frames, but we cant wear anything with logos. Had to get a letter from the full bird to authoorise them. So ridicules.
QuoteNo that is what we laughed at as well. We got issued all this gear with logos and such on them and then we are told we could not wear them. I must go into theater with ballitic eye wear and were issued the Okeley M Frames, but we cant wear anything with logos. Had to get a letter from the full bird to authoorise them. So ridicules.
And the Catch-22s keep on-a-comin...
Sounds like a job for a sharpie or nail file, or are you not allowed to do that? I suppose if its issued to you its gov't property, huh?
idk i lost mine a long time ago. And once you are down range alot of the stupid regulations go out the window. I wore the Half Jackets most of my deployment. No one said anything about the O's on them until we got home. I still wear Okeleys but I mad sure the Logos are more subdued and not noticeable. I ripped the logos of the Camel Bak. But I still left them on both of my goggles. the strap says Whiley X and there is no getting ride of those and my SWD goggles I have no clue where they are but the do have some kinda logo on them
Quote from: penguinmaster113 on June 22, 2008, 12:38:06 AM
There is an airshow coming up and I want to buy a Camelbak. Are there any regulations about what color a Camelbak can be? I've heard before they have to be either black or camoflauge.
I couldn't find a black, brown, or camoflauge camelbak that fit me. All I could find was red or electric blue. I chose the red one, since it'd go better with my BDU's (I wear the blue ones).
If corporate doesn't like it, they can cut my pay.
Quote from: gistek on June 22, 2008, 06:59:40 PM
Quote from: penguinmaster113 on June 22, 2008, 12:38:06 AM
There is an airshow coming up and I want to buy a Camelbak. Are there any regulations about what color a Camelbak can be? I've heard before they have to be either black or camoflauge.
I couldn't find a black, brown, or camoflauge camelbak that fit me. All I could find was red or electric blue. I chose the red one, since it'd go better with my BDU's (I wear the blue ones).
If corporate doesn't like it, they can cut my pay.
Or they can tell you to either ditch your red camelbak or go home, your choice.
And I've seen it happen too.
Where were you looking? If you limited yourself to the selection at WalMart then...
I would have gone online, you'll pay a little more for shipping and have to wait a few days for it, but you would get exactly what you want.
Question: I'm looking at the Blackhawk! Hydrastorm Tidal Rave, does anyone have one, know someone who knows someone who has one? What do you/they think of it?
Quote from: mikeylikey on June 22, 2008, 01:06:58 AM
So MARPAT/ACU/ABU pattern is out?
It only says CAMOFLAGE.......Any pattern would be okay as far as I was concerned.....heck if the Cadet showed up with a pink Barbie Camel Back.....I would probably allow it....as hydration is more important than uniform regulations in my humble opinion.
Yes, it says camo, and CAP members are only allowed to wear one pattern of camo - woodland, ergo...
Quote from: Eclipse on June 23, 2008, 04:34:07 AM
Yes, it says camo, and CAP members are only allowed to wear one pattern of camo - woodland, ergo...
Nice streach....but as it is so often pointed out to me....it's not in the regulations "woodland only".
Quote from: lordmonar on June 23, 2008, 05:27:48 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 23, 2008, 04:34:07 AM
Yes, it says camo, and CAP members are only allowed to wear one pattern of camo - woodland, ergo...
Nice streach....but as it is so often pointed out to me....it's not in the regulations "woodland only".
Generally one would apply common sense to a vague regulation, rather than exploiting the vagueness to fit your needs. However, I agree that hydration, in whatever form is the most important thing. I would encourage members to stick to either woodland, black or brown (which I am assuming means the Coyote color that seems to be on everything lately?). I would stick to black, because it can be worn with everything without looking wierd. The brown will look ok with ABUs when we transition to those, and at that point I would transfer the definition of camouflage to the ABU pattern, or ACU, as they look similar on smaller objects. Base it on the current circumstances.
Camouflage could be interpreted to mean urban camo, or one of those rediculous orange or red or purple camos that they put on kids clothing and stuff.
Then when HQ finally decides to implement the stack of ICLs sitting around into 39-1 and actually provide the membership with a current manual, they can make such things more concise.
[/wishfulthinking]
My Camelback is Red for safety reasons with a CAP name tape velcroed on the back.
do you wear it over or under your saety vest
Which goes to why the reg was written the way it is. I know we've all seen little tiny patches of safety vest peeking out from under hyda-packs and gear vests. Why not make the hydra pack and gear vest orange to begin with? ??? I'm planning on buying an ES vest with built in hydration bladder pocket. Then someone, somewhere will tell me I can't wear it.
Quote from: afgeo4 on June 22, 2008, 01:35:26 AM
Black is authorized with BDU and ABU in USAF and will be in CAP, so why bother getting anything else?
Well, black does absorb more sunlight than other colors, thus getting hot faster. I have a black camelbak and hate drinking warm water. :P
then drink you water faster it wont get hot then ;D
A little ice in that black camelbak will solve the warm water problem and will help keep you cooler too!
Once at an encampment we made notice on the packing list that camel backs were not allowed.
An officer showed up with one, we informed him of the camelback policy, he procedded to put it under his bouse.
We asked him to remove it, or remove himself from the encampment. He made the good choice and removed the camelback.
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on July 03, 2008, 08:32:29 AM
Once at an encampment we made notice on the packing list that camel backs were not allowed.
An officer showed up with one, we informed him of the camelback policy, he procedded to put it under his bouse.
We asked him to remove it, or remove himself from the encampment. He made the good choice and removed the camelback.
Guess you guys showed him...
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on July 03, 2008, 08:32:29 AM
Once at an encampment we made notice on the packing list that camel backs were not allowed.
An officer showed up with one, we informed him of the camelback policy, he procedded to put it under his bouse.
We asked him to remove it, or remove himself from the encampment. He made the good choice and removed the camelback.
I REALLY REALLY hope this was done before camelbaks were authorized by NHQ as uniform items.
Local units have no authority to "de-authorize" uniform items or anything else. The only thing units can do is authorize additional items to be used/worn in that unit's AOR.
Quote from: N Harmon on June 30, 2008, 01:59:42 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on June 22, 2008, 01:35:26 AM
Black is authorized with BDU and ABU in USAF and will be in CAP, so why bother getting anything else?
Well, black does absorb more sunlight than other colors, thus getting hot faster. I have a black camelbak and hate drinking warm water. :P
1. Warm water gets absorbed by your body faster. Your body has to warm cool water to body temp for it to be absorbed if the water is cold. That uses lots of energy.
2. Warm water, though isn't as good tasting, is just as effective at hydration as cold water.
3. Woodland Camouflage is almost as dark as black and the temp differences would be almost non-existant.
Quote from: afgeo4 on July 05, 2008, 04:43:57 PM
Local units have no authority to "de-authorize" uniform items or anything else. The only thing units can do is authorize additional items to be used/worn in that unit's AOR.
Local unit and activity commanders have the authority to prohibit any uniform or equipment they deem appropriate.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 05, 2008, 05:14:49 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on July 05, 2008, 04:43:57 PM
Local units have no authority to "de-authorize" uniform items or anything else. The only thing units can do is authorize additional items to be used/worn in that unit's AOR.
Local unit and activity commanders have the authority to prohibit any uniform or equipment they deem appropriate.
Really?? I thought they could add to it, but not take away from it. NOW they can tell you what specific items to bring to an activity, but they can't just say "disregard 39-1".
Quote from: mikeylikey on July 05, 2008, 08:23:17 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 05, 2008, 05:14:49 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on July 05, 2008, 04:43:57 PM
Local units have no authority to "de-authorize" uniform items or anything else. The only thing units can do is authorize additional items to be used/worn in that unit's AOR.
Local unit and activity commanders have the authority to prohibit any uniform or equipment they deem appropriate.
Really?? I thought they could add to it, but not take away from it. NOW they can tell you what specific items to bring to an activity, but they can't just say "disregard 39-1".
Quote from: CAPM 39-1 Table 1-1
Table 1-1. Wearing the Uniform
NOTES:
1. The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national functions. However, all commanders must be mindful of the objective of attaining a neatly uniformed appearance at a minimum of personal expense to the individual member and will consequently refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 05, 2008, 09:18:44 PM
1. The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national functions. However, all commanders must be mindful of the objective of attaining a neatly uniformed appearance at a minimum of personal expense to the individual member and will consequently refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements.
It says "uniform type" as in Blues, BDUs, Flightsuits, etc. It doesn't say canteens vs. camelbacks, etc. I would also consider it an "unreasonable uniform requirement" to make me go purchase canteens and a pistol belt when I have a perfectly functioning camelback - which is outlined in 39-1 - and canteens are not.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on July 06, 2008, 01:13:01 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 05, 2008, 09:18:44 PM
1. The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national functions. However, all commanders must be mindful of the objective of attaining a neatly uniformed appearance at a minimum of personal expense to the individual member and will consequently refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements.
It says "uniform type" as in Blues, BDUs, Flightsuits, etc. It doesn't say canteens vs. camelbacks, etc. I would also consider it an "unreasonable uniform requirement" to make me go purchase canteens and a pistol belt when I have a perfectly functioning camelback - which is outlined in 39-1 - and canteens are not.
Authorizing the use or wear of something is not the same as prescribing its use or wear.
GTM Manual says "Canteen(s) to carry 2 quarts of water", so based on that manual, hydration packs aren't even authorized.
With that said, who said anyone was making you buy anything?
Prohibiting a hydration pack is not the same as requiring you to buy something else. The equipment list says
"web belt and canteen", but all you have is a hydration pack? Here's a water bottle, put it in your BDU pocket and move on.
The fact that you don't own the prescribed equipment for an activity does not necessarily allow you to use something else at your discretion, especially something which is clearly visible and different.
This also falls back to the whole "I know better and you can't tell me what to do argument", which doesn't fly in a paramilitary environment where we are trying to instill discipline. When people play organized sports, they are handed a required equipment list, and in many case a prohibited list as well (i.e. metal spikes vs. plastic, aluminum bat vs. wood, etc.) whether something is "better" or not, is irrelevant, here is the list.
Show up without your required gear to a little league game, and you likely warm the bench, likewise if you miss required practices, etc. (i.e. training), yet in CAP, where in theory we are training people to save lives, it seems to be OK to just do whatever you want, regardless of the rules or the leader's wishes.
What we have here is a little bit of unfortunate confusion between field gear and a uniform item.
Keep in mind that Table 2-5 in 39-1 (where the camelback reference can be found) is really meant to describe standards for quite a few things including some optional items. The way I interpret this table is that if an item is going to be used (or worn, or tattoed on you), this is the standard it must meet.
For example, there is a standard for umbrellas. Do we take this to mean that it would be fine for someone to take an umbrella with them on a ground team mission in a rain storm?
So, what I get is that if camelbacks are going to be allowed for an activity, they have to be black, brown, or camoflage. It is interesting to me that they seem to be more picky about the color of this item than that of our other field gear.
Seems like more people or so stuck on everyone being absolute clones of each other that they aren't considering practicality.
So what if a few people wear a Camelbak, and others don't. Seems like having water would be more important. The Camelbak is within regs, there's really no reason one should be forbidden.
But I guess that abolute uniformity, without any of the variation that's actually authorized by the pubs is more important. No wonder we have people that don't renew.
QuoteGTM Manual says "Canteen(s) to carry 2 quarts of water", so based on that manual, hydration packs aren't even authorized.
For ground team work, maybe. But what about airshows and other generic CAP activities?
QuoteProhibiting a hydration pack is not the same as requiring you to buy something else. The equipment list says
"web belt and canteen", but all you have is a hydration pack? Here's a water bottle, put it in your BDU pocket and move on.
So, since most water bottles are a pint, in order to carry 2 quarts, you would need to put 4 water bottles in your cargo pockets to have the minimum amount of water. I'm pretty sure that having 2 pounds of water bouncing against each of your legs is going to be pretty darn uncomfortable.