CAP Talk

(http://jcolgan004.googlepages.com/sword1.jpg)

(http://jcolgan004.googlepages.com/sword2.jpg)

Hmmm....i figured a CAP sword would look like a big butter knife.  >:D

I think it's great! Would make ceremonies of firing wing commanders more official and umm... final.

Quote from: LtCol White on August 29, 2007, 06:14:49 PM
Hmmm....i figured a CAP sword would look like a big butter knife.  >:D

It is a big butter knife.

CAP Sword... also known as the new CAPF-2b

They carry these in the Black Van.

The black van cracks are getting really old.

There is no black van.  >:D


So is this thing officially called Civil Air Patrol Sword or Civil Air Patrol Saber?

Was this on the vanguard site? I Looked and didnt see it anywhere

Quote from: afgeo4 on August 29, 2007, 06:22:32 PM
There is no black van.  >:D

So is this thing officially called Civil Air Patrol Sword or Civil Air Patrol Saber?

Sword. 

Quote from: LtCol White on August 29, 2007, 06:22:50 PM
Was this on the vanguard site? I Looked and didnt see it anywhere

It isn't on the web site.  I had to beg for the picture.

So they sell them but they arent on the website?? And what was the price of this little gem?

We saw it at the National Conference in the Vanguard room.  It is actually nice looking and compares to the other branches sabres.  My son decided he wants one and I promised him I would buy him one when he earns his C/Col. rank.  His older brother has one from the AFA class of 91.  Possible motivation??  Price was $300.00, IIRC..  

The sword looks very cool, not to mention nice looking.  It would be a great show piece.  That just got put ahead of Storm Trooper Armor on my wish list.



Yes I have a wish list, and yes Storm Trooper Armor is on there.

$7.00 flat rate shipping??  ::)

I bet, after this thread, the sales of the CAP Sword will increase ten-fold.  Lots of people make fun overtly, but inside, they're looking at their check book to see if they can afford it.

The first time I see a CAP Officer carrying around a CAP sword, I'll turn in my 2A for retirement.

Hmm that's mighty tempting... I think the sword would be excellent for Honor Guard duties and weddings. Perhaps we should have them around to issue to cadet officers in Honor Guard for ceremonies (with proper training from Honor Guard Academy of course).

Quote from: Stonewall on August 29, 2007, 06:40:07 PM
I bet, after this thread, the sales of the CAP Sword will increase ten-fold.  Lots of people make fun overtly, but inside, they're looking at their check book to see if they can afford it.

The first time I see a CAP Officer carrying around a CAP sword, I'll turn in my 2A for retirement.

What if I'm just carrying it around because I use it to keep people awake in classes?  I won't wear it, I promise.

And yes, $300.  They will add up to 18 characters to it for an additional $20.  Why they wouldn't put such a pricey item on the web site, I have no idea.   :-\

Quote from: Stonewall on August 29, 2007, 06:40:07 PM
I bet, after this thread, the sales of the CAP Sword will increase ten-fold.  Lots of people make fun overtly, but inside, they're looking at their check book to see if they can afford it.

The first time I see a CAP Officer carrying around a CAP sword, I'll turn in my 2A for retirement.

Care to come to OK?   ;D

I'll have your 2B 2A ready. . .
JK

Quote from: RogueLeader on August 29, 2007, 06:51:14 PM

Quote from: Stonewall on August 29, 2007, 06:40:07 PM
I bet, after this thread, the sales of the CAP Sword will increase ten-fold.  Lots of people make fun overtly, but inside, they're looking at their check book to see if they can afford it.

The first time I see a CAP Officer carrying around a CAP sword, I'll turn in my 2A for retirement.

Care to come to OK?   ;D

I'll have your 2B 2A ready. . .
JK

Are you near Ft. Sill? Cause I'm sending a henchman in October for FA OBC.

I gotta get me one of these, it'll look great in my retirement shadowbox someday!

Nice...... ;D


(...funny though, I thought it would be made of maroon nerf foam...... ;))

Quote from: afgeo4 on August 29, 2007, 06:54:58 PM
Are you near Ft. Sill? Cause I'm sending a henchman in October for FA OBC.

Yes we are.  The squadron meets at the Lawton - Fort Sill Regional Airport on Wednesday Evenings at 1830.

Couldn't the henchman qualify for Benning?

Quote from: afgeo4 on August 29, 2007, 06:54:58 PM

Are you near Ft. Sill? Cause I'm sending a henchman in October for FA OBC.

If you call being about ¹/₄ mile from Ft. Sill Close, than yes, I am.

I just ordered ten of them to pass out to the group CAC, we are changing the name of CAC to the Knights of the round table.  Does VanCrap sell and archery set as well.  We are going play Robin Hood with the new wing banking system ;D

Whate a joke >:D

Quote from: RogueLeader on August 29, 2007, 07:02:42 PM

Quote from: afgeo4 on August 29, 2007, 06:54:58 PM

Are you near Ft. Sill? Cause I'm sending a henchman in October for FA OBC.

If you call being about ¹/₄ mile from Ft. Sill Close, than yes, I am.

Well I do, but he prefers ruck marches. I'm sure he'll take the long way around OKC to get there.

But Where around Ft Sill am I?  >:D >:D >:D There is quite a bit of land. ;D ;D ;D

Quote from: Trung Si Ma on August 29, 2007, 06:59:23 PM

Quote from: afgeo4 on August 29, 2007, 06:54:58 PM
Are you near Ft. Sill? Cause I'm sending a henchman in October for FA OBC.

Yes we are.  The squadron meets at the Lawton - Fort Sill Regional Airport on Wednesday Evenings at 1830.

Couldn't the henchman qualify for Benning?

The henchman couldn't get grades high enough in law school compared to people who were in undergrad, so he didn't get his first pick of Infantry or his 2nd pick of Armor.

My retirement shadow box only has a white aviator's shirt with one maroon and one grey Lieutenant Colonel's shoulderboards and solo wings.  Oh, yeah, and a grey three line nametag with my nickname "Johnson."

Quote from: sandman on August 29, 2007, 06:58:41 PM
...
(...funny though, I thought it would be made of maroon nerf foam...... ;))

lmao   :D

Quote from: Skyray on August 29, 2007, 07:29:17 PM
My retirement shadow box only has a white aviator's shirt with one maroon and one grey Lieutenant Colonel's shoulderboards and solo wings.  Oh, yeah, and a grey three line nametag with my nickname "Johnson."

  :D
Sorry... a scene from Austin Powers came to mind.

Wow! Every year at the Wisconsin Cadet Academy, they give a real/replica Civil War style sabre to the honor cadet of the wek.  I wonder if they'll replace it with this now?

Replica sabre: around $40

CAP sword: $300

not likely.

Lol, good point tedda

Now why in the heck do we need a sword?  Who's the moron who thought this one up?

Perhaps it transforms into a DF mast when you press a button.  Now that would be handy while in Mess Dress.....    ::)

What's the reg on wearing a sword like that?

Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on August 29, 2007, 07:40:44 PM
....a real/replica Civil War style sabre ....

I that like genuine imitation Naugahyde?

If I knew what Naugahyde was, I'd probably say yes.  I say real because it looks real and not like a plastic/nerf POS.  And i say replica because, well, its a replica lol

Quote from: afgeo4 on August 29, 2007, 07:27:07 PM
The henchman couldn't get grades high enough in law school compared to people who were in undergrad, so he didn't get his first pick of Infantry or his 2nd pick of Armor.

And now, as a Fire Supporter, he will get to play with both branches.

Is he a pilot?  Let him know that I'll take him for a flight around the local area if he wants to see it from the air.

I think it looks pretty sharp (pun intended), but they could have left the Cessna off it.

Intel report: Vanguard CAP supervisor tells me that it will be added to the site.  They have a number of things that are going to be added, and they are working on adjusting all the mistakes in item identification and such.

You have a National Commander who really likes bling.  Anyway you cut it, a ceremonial sword is bling. Any questions?

I like the idea of having this sword. Although a bit out of most individuals budgets especially individual squadrons, I could see a wing procuring several of these gems for an honor guard program.

You have to keep in mind that the swords come in different lengths. So ideally an honor guard program will need to purchase several swords at a couple of common lengths to make it work. Extra tall or extra short people will have to make do or purchase one of their own.

This might be difficult for cadet use though, they tend to grow upward--not as much outward like us. So for some of the common lengths of swords there is a range of heighth. Very short (temporarly short) cadets may need to wait to participate....not fair but dragging the scabbard does not convey a serious drill team or honor guard.

I see good use for an officer honor guard program.

I think I'll get one just because I can....and it might irritate some people.....gotta love that ;D

I'll wear it with my mess dress too (on an appropriate occasion) ;)

^^ Vanguard only has the standard 30".

Quote from: sandman on August 29, 2007, 09:00:22 PM
I like the idea of having this sword. Although a bit out of most individuals budgets especially individual squadrons, I could see a wing procuring several of these gems for an honor guard program.

Strictly verboten by CAPP 52-8.

Quote from: MIKE on August 29, 2007, 09:07:07 PM

Quote from: sandman on August 29, 2007, 09:00:22 PM
I like the idea of having this sword. Although a bit out of most individuals budgets especially individual squadrons, I could see a wing procuring several of these gems for an honor guard program.

Strictly verboten by CAPP 52-8.

Only because they fear the impending revolt of cadets with swords

Quote from: MIKE on August 29, 2007, 09:07:07 PM

Quote from: sandman on August 29, 2007, 09:00:22 PM
I like the idea of having this sword. Although a bit out of most individuals budgets especially individual squadrons, I could see a wing procuring several of these gems for an honor guard program.

Strictly verboten by CAPP 52-8.

"You'll put your eye out with that thing!"

Quote from: MIKE on August 29, 2007, 09:07:07 PM

Quote from: sandman on August 29, 2007, 09:00:22 PM
I like the idea of having this sword. Although a bit out of most individuals budgets especially individual squadrons, I could see a wing procuring several of these gems for an honor guard program.

Strictly verboten by CAPP 52-8.

Well, here's the question, does a pamphlet have a regulatory standing? If it was in a CAPR, no contest, but since it's just listed in a CAPP, does it count?

*puts on nomex in preparation for flaming*

Quote from: MIKE on August 29, 2007, 09:07:07 PM

Quote from: sandman on August 29, 2007, 09:00:22 PM
I like the idea of having this sword. Although a bit out of most individuals budgets especially individual squadrons, I could see a wing procuring several of these gems for an honor guard program.

Strictly verboten by CAPP 52-8.

But if the people wearing swords are the only ones with them....how will someone take them away?!  >:D

Quote from: MIKE on August 29, 2007, 09:07:07 PM

Quote from: sandman on August 29, 2007, 09:00:22 PM
I like the idea of having this sword. Although a bit out of most individuals budgets especially individual squadrons, I could see a wing procuring several of these gems for an honor guard program.

Strictly verboten by CAPP 52-8.

Traditionally, a sword represents combatant capability, which is why we don't carry them, nor is it used in CAP heraldry.

I sincerely hope that Vanguard does not put either a point or a sharp edge on the blade: might be lethal in CAP.

Quote from: SJFedor on August 29, 2007, 09:32:20 PM

Quote from: MIKE on August 29, 2007, 09:07:07 PM

Quote from: sandman on August 29, 2007, 09:00:22 PM
I like the idea of having this sword. Although a bit out of most individuals budgets especially individual squadrons, I could see a wing procuring several of these gems for an honor guard program.

Strictly verboten by CAPP 52-8.

Well, here's the question, does a pamphlet have a regulatory standing? If it was in a CAPR, no contest, but since it's just listed in a CAPP, does it count?

*puts on nomex in preparation for flaming*

Sir, I'm about ninety percent sure that same phrase is listed in another CAP regulation.

Plus, one could argue that since the wear of swords is not authorized in 39-1, that in and of itself is restriction enough.

My Marine NCO sword costs less than CAP's pig sticker.

Pamphlets can gain authority from another regulation.  If CAPR 52-16 says "cadets will comply with customs and courtesies outlined in CAPP 151" the customs and courtesies become regulatory in instances that are outlined because 52-16 gave that authority (just and example, not actually quoted).

Quote from: MIKE on August 29, 2007, 09:07:07 PM

Quote from: sandman on August 29, 2007, 09:00:22 PM
I like the idea of having this sword. Although a bit out of most individuals budgets especially individual squadrons, I could see a wing procuring several of these gems for an honor guard program.

Strictly verboten by CAPP 52-8.

Understood. But Lt Col Anderson tood a broad stroke of the pen when writing that pamphlet.

What I would like to see is a bit of thinking out of the box. Let's look at where CAPP 52-8 derives it prohibition:

Quote from: CAPR 52-16 1.4(c)
1-4. Safety Policies Related To The Cadet Program.
a. Training in Hot Environments. For all cadet training activities, commanders will adhere to the fluid replacement and work load limitations described in CAPP 52-18, Cadet Physical Fitness Program.
b. Mission Activity. Cadets may participate on Air Force and other missions provided they meet the criteria outlined in CAPR 60-3, Emergency Services Training and Operational Missions.
c. Weapons. There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any device that could be used as a weapon at any cadet activity. The only exceptions to this policy are:
(1) Deactivated Firearms. Cadets may use facsimile or deactivated firearms only as part of an honor guard or color guard. A deactivated firearm is one that will prevent the insertion of ammunition or the firing of a weapon. A facsimile is a copy that is not capable of firing ammunition.
(2) Firearm Training. CAP cadets may participate in firearm training if the wing commander approves the training facility and sponsoring personnel or agency in advance and in writing. For additional guidance, see CAPR 900-3, Firearms: Assistance to Law Enforcement Officials. Training must be sponsored and supervised by one of the following:
(a) Qualified military small arms range personnel.
(b) Local law enforcement officers qualified as firearms instructors.
(c) Personnel of the National Rifle Association, National Skeet Shooting Association or Amateur Trap Shooting Association qualified as firearms instructors.

I guess that includes rocks, cans, bottles, leatherman tools, shovels, baseball bats, spitballs, etc. There are two exceptions noted in regards to firearms.

So the challenge is to think out of the box and start a campaign for an additional exception for a sword. The only problem is....you don't want to or your too: scared, tired, old, fat, lazy, above all that, worried about the black van.......

Quote from: O-Rex on August 29, 2007, 09:52:05 PM
Traditionally, a sword represents combatant capability, which is why we don't carry them, nor is it used in CAP heraldry.

Citations please.

Have we already forgotton we have earned the sword? What about the sub-chasers of WW2? Pilots who have perished in support of the war effort? Getting shot at intentionally for the war effort (towing targets)? CAP was born out of combatant history.
c'mon people....really....

USPHS and NOAA have a sword; they're not even a part of DOD!

sandman: thanks for the additional weapon ideas.  Trouble is...I can't survive long cadet activities without soda cans...   :(

Guess I better leave the truck at home. . .

Quote from: JC004 on August 29, 2007, 09:04:39 PM
^^ Vanguard only has the standard 30".

My bad....

That's what is in stock and since there's not enough demand (prior to this thread ;)) for the item they may be reluctant to produce length variations.

I'd be willing to bet that the etching template and machine could just as easily be applied to a 28" as to a 30". I might pose that question when I drive to the Carlsbad, CA office later.

Quote from: CAPM 39-1 3.1CAPM 39-1 23 MARCH 2005 67
CHAPTER 3 – CIVIL AIR PATROL HONOR GUARD UNIFORM
3-1. General. This chapter prescribes the standardized uniform worn by Civil Air Patrol honor guards.
This uniform is approved for wear during honor guard duties and performances only. Only those items
described in this chapter may be worn. Items such as blue ascots with BDU, boots with the service dress
uniform, swords, "Smokie Bear" hats, etc., are not permitted.

As I said, think out of the box and start a new campaign to include the sword.

Any problem with an "officer" honor guard?

Must be something about the Sea Services.  I was at a cutter change of command ceremony a couple of weeks ago, and all the heavy hitters were in Mess Dress with swords.  Looked pretty cool, it did.  I don't think the Skipper trusted them to do the manual of arms, though.  They stayed in the scabbards for the whole show.

Quote from: sandman on August 29, 2007, 11:06:45 PM

Quote from: CAPM 39-1 3.1CAPM 39-1 23 MARCH 2005 67
CHAPTER 3 – CIVIL AIR PATROL HONOR GUARD UNIFORM
3-1. General. This chapter prescribes the standardized uniform worn by Civil Air Patrol honor guards.
This uniform is approved for wear during honor guard duties and performances only. Only those items
described in this chapter may be worn. Items such as blue ascots with BDU, boots with the service dress
uniform, swords, "Smokie Bear" hats, etc., are not permitted.

As I said, think out of the box and start a new campaign to include the sword.

Any problem with an "officer" honor guard?

Well

You'll have my one hundred present support for that..........

Right after.............we.......

Get every cadet a full blues uniform..........fix the errors in all of our regulations and manual.........etc etc

At a wedding, under Air Force rules of ettiquette, the sword-bearers cannot be the ushers.  Don't know why, and I sure don't know anybody getting married who wants to spring for an arch of swords at $300 a pop, and in fact I have no idea why I posted this useless piece of trivia.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 29, 2007, 11:24:14 PM
At a wedding, under Air Force rules of ettiquette, the sword-bearers cannot be the ushers.  Don't know why, and I sure don't know anybody getting married who wants to spring for an arch of swords at $300 a pop, and in fact I have no idea why I posted this useless piece of trivia.

Useless trivia is more fun that uniform rants.   :)

I say we all get swords AND shields.

The shields can be round and blue with the triangle/prop device in the middle. Then we storm NHQ have a coup d'etat and seize power!  >:D

Quote from: Stonewall on August 29, 2007, 06:40:07 PM
I bet, after this thread, the sales of the CAP Sword will increase ten-fold.  Lots of people make fun overtly, but inside, they're looking at their check book to see if they can afford it.

The first time I see a CAP Officer carrying around a CAP sword, I'll turn in my 2A for retirement.

I have my AF Officer's sword. It's great for cake cutting at banquets and promotion ceremonies! It would make an excellent bludgeoning tool for zombies, Amway sales people, etc.

Major Lord

... And Captain America red white and blue leotards!

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 29, 2007, 11:56:30 PM
... And Captain America red white and blue leotards!

Do we have to also have a corporate leotard for those not meeting standards for the USAF one? ::)

Quote from: LtCol White on August 29, 2007, 11:47:06 PM
I say we all get swords AND shields.

The shields can be round and blue with the triangle/prop device in the middle. Then we storm NHQ have a coup d'etat and seize power!  >:D

I'm in.

Quote from: sandman on August 29, 2007, 10:38:29 PM

Quote from: O-Rex on August 29, 2007, 09:52:05 PM
Traditionally, a sword represents combatant capability, which is why we don't carry them, nor is it used in CAP heraldry.

Citations please.

Have we already forgotton we have earned the sword? What about the sub-chasers of WW2? Pilots who have perished in support of the war effort? Getting shot at intentionally for the war effort (towing targets)? CAP was born out of combatant history.
c'mon people....really....

USPHS and NOAA have a sword; they're not even a part of DOD!

Citations for what? Even the Air Force doesn't have any history of carrying a sword in combat. They may be used for formal ceremonies, but there is no historical background of either CAP or the Air Force carrying them for combat use. The Army has a history of it (Calvary comes to mind), as does the Navy and the Marine Corps. By the time the Army Air Corps, the Air Force and the Civil Air Patrol came around, the sword was not a standard fighting mans weapon.

There is no historical background or heraldy that says "Swords were never used by CAP." And just because we've lost people in war time periods doesn't give us a history of combat. Subchasers may have made a couple of kills, but it was not normal operations for our organization. We do not have a combatant history. We have a history of civil defense (which is presently referred to as "Homeland Security").

I'll disagree with you on that one, Hawk.  CAP does have a battle history.  They went out looking for the Germans, and finding them, engaged them in battle.  That's a combat history if I ever heard one.

On the Pacific side, CAP was used to patrol for Balloon Bombs launched by the Japanese against the US.  This was not a killer mission, it was strictly defensive, but it still was CAP pilots flying in defense of the United States, and attempting to interdict an armed attack.

But I'm still not sending Vanguard $300 for a sword.

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 30, 2007, 12:24:37 AM

Quote from: sandman on August 29, 2007, 10:38:29 PM

Quote from: O-Rex on August 29, 2007, 09:52:05 PM
Traditionally, a sword represents combatant capability, which is why we don't carry them, nor is it used in CAP heraldry.

Citations please.

Have we already forgotton we have earned the sword? What about the sub-chasers of WW2? Pilots who have perished in support of the war effort? Getting shot at intentionally for the war effort (towing targets)? CAP was born out of combatant history.
c'mon people....really....

USPHS and NOAA have a sword; they're not even a part of DOD!

Citations for what? Even the Air Force doesn't have any history of carrying a sword in combat. They may be used for formal ceremonies, but there is no historical background of either CAP or the Air Force carrying them for combat use. The Army has a history of it (Calvary comes to mind), as does the Navy and the Marine Corps. By the time the Army Air Corps, the Air Force and the Civil Air Patrol came around, the sword was not a standard fighting mans weapon.

There is no historical background or heraldy that says "Swords were never used by CAP." And just because we've lost people in war time periods doesn't give us a history of combat. Subchasers may have made a couple of kills, but it was not normal operations for our organization. We do not have a combatant history. We have a history of civil defense (which is presently referred to as "Homeland Security").

The coastal patrols most certainly were normal operations for CAP

Quote from: LtCol White on August 30, 2007, 12:35:26 AM
The coastal patrols most certainly were normal operations for CAP

You're right. But they were not combat operations. Coastal Patrol was a defense of our borders. Defended by civilians. Hence, Civil Defense.

CAP aircraft were not armed to looking for a sub to sink, it was in case they found one, and couldn't get appropriate support.

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 30, 2007, 01:00:11 AM

Quote from: LtCol White on August 30, 2007, 12:35:26 AM
The coastal patrols most certainly were normal operations for CAP

You're right. But they were not combat operations. Coastal Patrol was a defense of our borders. Defended by civilians. Hence, Civil Defense.

CAP aircraft were not armed to looking for a sub to sink, it was in case they found one, and couldn't get appropriate support.

You really need to read up on your history. They WERE armed. Have you not seen the pics of the aircraft with bombs slung under them? How do you suppose they sunk the U boat if they weren't armed? Those missions do qualify as combat as well since nothing prevented the Germans from firing on the aircraft if they chose to do so.

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 30, 2007, 01:00:11 AM

Quote from: LtCol White on August 30, 2007, 12:35:26 AM
The coastal patrols most certainly were normal operations for CAP

You're right. But they were not combat operations. Coastal Patrol was a defense of our borders. Defended by civilians. Hence, Civil Defense.

CAP aircraft were not armed to looking for a sub to sink, it was in case they found one, and couldn't get appropriate support.

CAP aircraft were NOT armed when we were under Civil Defense.  When we were transfered to the Army Air Corps, the CAP planes were armed with bombs or depth charges.  We went from being hunters to being killers.  We sunk two, but attacked 73.

wow you guys make me laugh some times. 

Quote from: LtCol White on August 30, 2007, 01:04:58 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 30, 2007, 01:00:11 AM

Quote from: LtCol White on August 30, 2007, 12:35:26 AM
The coastal patrols most certainly were normal operations for CAP

You're right. But they were not combat operations. Coastal Patrol was a defense of our borders. Defended by civilians. Hence, Civil Defense.

CAP aircraft were not armed to looking for a sub to sink, it was in case they found one, and couldn't get appropriate support.

You really need to read up on your history. They WERE armed. Have you not seen the pics of the aircraft with bombs slung under them? How do you suppose they sunk the U boat if they weren't armed? Those missions do qualify as combat as well since nothing prevented the Germans from firing on the aircraft if they chose to do so.

You need to actually read the statement. I didn't say they weren't armed, I said they were not armed to go sink subs. What was meant was that they were not armed with the primary intention of going out to sink a sub. They flew with a bomb strapped underneath in the event that they could not get appropriate support to sink it. That's why it was called "coastal patrol". There are coastal patrols nowadays, but they aren't looking for subs.

The bombs were only added to CAP aircraft after subs were sighted, and support was not fast enough to get there. A petition was put forth to allow CAP aircraft to carry those bombs, and it was put into effect. The pilots themselves did not carry sidearms(at least not officially which is what matters), and certainly were not dropping bombs "under fire". The circumstances were most certainly not combat operations.

CAP personnel have not normally carried firearms or swords. The cirumstances do not justify Civil Air Patrol as an organization "earning" a sword as part of its heraldry. We have no official history of carrying a rifle or a sword as part of our normal operations.

Actually, there was no petition.  There were a couple of incidents, at least one off the Texas coast and one off Florida, where submarines were spotted, but armed forces support was not available.  When the incident off Florida took place, Hap Arnold was enraged, and ordered that CAP planes be armed.  In very short order, engineers working for the Army Air Corps had fashioned a series of bomb racks designed to be mounted on the various GA planes that were in use.  The smaller ones were armed with 100-pound bombs, and larger aircraft were armed with 250-pound depth charges pre-set for what was approximated to be periscope depth for a submarine.

To my knowledge (and I'll check this out tomorrow with one survivor of the Coastal Patrol that lives in Florida) there were no orders to use weapons as a last resort if other forces were not available.

There was a fast adaptation of the Air Corps uniform for the CAP guys, since the Geneva Convention would now consider the CAP folks to be combatant personnel. 

   

Classic CAPTalk topic drift.

Quote from: MIKE on August 30, 2007, 02:03:53 AM
Classic CAPTalk topic drift.

Sort of...but it isn't a uniform discussion yet.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 30, 2007, 02:00:52 AM
Actually, there was no petition.  There were a couple of incidents, at least one off the Texas coast and one off Florida, where submarines were spotted, but armed forces support was not available.  When the incident off Florida took place, Hap Arnold was enraged, and ordered that CAP planes be armed.  In very short order, engineers working for the Army Air Corps had fashioned a series of bomb racks designed to be mounted on the various GA planes that were in use.  The smaller ones were armed with 100-pound bombs, and larger aircraft were armed with 250-pound depth charges pre-set for what was approximated to be periscope depth for a submarine.

Been awhile since I read "Flying Minute Men". However, my original point that CAP is not an organization with a combat history stands. We never went into combat theaters with an intent to engage the enemy en-masse. There are no CAP soldiers or "battlefield" airman. Yes, we may have had aircrafted that dropped bombs in the past, and a sub may have fired on our planes with some small caliber weapon, but we did not engage in combat.

Soldiers, sailors, airman, and Marines have engaged in combat. Trying to say our organization has earned a name as having combat history is a lie. Both to the Services (who will know better and berate us for it), and to ourselves (which is the worst kind of lie). We can't re-define combat to our own ends, and expect any respect for it.

Besides, even if we did have a combat history, there would be no swords as part of it. Nobody in CAP has been armed with a sword as part of their operational duties (Honor Guards aren't "operational") Which makes Vanguard's expensive knick-knack a joke, and not a fitting item to even produce. It's not appropriate to our history, either way.

(Yeah, I could have thrown something in about uniforms, but decided not to.)

Well, the Air Force never carried swords in combat, either.

But, some dates are important:

March, 1942, unarmed coastal patrol under Civil Defense.

May 1942, Arnold orders arming of CAP planes.

April 29, 1943, CAP transfered to Army Air Forces, commenced armed patrols.

August 31, 1943,  CAP discontinues Coastal Patrol since the Germans withdrew from the coast, changing tactics to avoid land-based (little) aircraft.

Therefore, after 94 days of armed patrol, the Germans withdrew from the coast of the United States.  CAP made 57 attacks on enemy subs, sinking two, within those 94 days.  That is an attack against an enemy submarine every 1.64 days.

OK, I will grant you that we attacked an enemy force in groups of two or three aircrews at a time, and not en masse, but that was a function of the enemy's dispersal of its force.

Combat action every 1.64 days is a pretty aggressive tempo of operations in anybody's war. 

Also, an attack every 1.64 days indicates that nobody was waiting for other forces before engaging.

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 30, 2007, 01:23:11 AM
CAP personnel have not normally carried firearms or swords. The cirumstances do not justify Civil Air Patrol as an organization "earning" a sword as part of its heraldry. We have no official history of carrying a rifle or a sword as part of our normal operations.

Thank you!

Some customs & norms are not cited, but are adhered to nonetheless.

Even the armed forces has gotten away from it: you don't see Army Officers wearing sabres (swords for NCO's) outside of the 3rd Inf Regt.

Newly commissioned Marine Officers are no longer required to buy them, unless they are slated for a diplomatic or ceremonial posting.

The CAP sword is an interesting conversation-piece, but I can think of alot of other CAP-toys I could by with that kind of money. . . .

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 30, 2007, 02:36:19 AM
Well, the Air Force never carried swords in combat, either.

Exactly. I don't think the Air Force rates any kind of sword, either. They look cool, but it's not something the Air Force has as part of its own history. I spent a while in the Air Force, and I'm all for looking cool, but it has to be fitting. I don't think this sword from Vanguard is. It's just another item for them to make money from, and they know people will buy it. Considering their uniform Nazi's, I'm wondering how long it will be before one of our folks tries to order it, and told they can't because "it's not authorized for wear".

(Just had to...)

Quote from: O-Rex on August 30, 2007, 02:48:00 AMThe CAP sword is an interesting conversation-piece, but I can think of alot of other CAP-toys I could by with that kind of money. . . .

As could I. If I was looking to spend that kind of coin, I'd probably put it in the kitty towards one of those fancy new style L-pers. They're nice, but spendy. You could keep it in your trunk, it looks like it could handle a few knocks and be fine.

Whaddya gonna do with a sword? Hang it on your wall? Play "CAP Musketeers"?  >:D

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 30, 2007, 02:55:26 AM
Whaddya gonna do with a sword? Hang it on your wall? Play "CAP Musketeers"?  >:D

"There can be only one."

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


I think when we decide on who is going to be the next XO we challenge them to a dual. That way you only have to buy two. Maybe we could do away with the 2b. And instead of resign! HAVE them FALL on their Sword. Think of the possibilities.
1. strap it to a 182 wing strut and have low level stick-um missions, on the border.
 2. On CD missions we can spot and harvest.
 3. Teach those pesky F-16s to get too close.
 4. we could field a CAP fencing team at the Olympics.
 5. I can have a Military wedding, with swords.

Quote from: MIKE on August 30, 2007, 02:58:21 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 30, 2007, 02:55:26 AM
Whaddya gonna do with a sword? Hang it on your wall? Play "CAP Musketeers"?  >:D

"There can be only one."

Too bad the applause icon isn't working.... ;D

On the other hand, how many people will get it?

Quote from: wingnut on August 30, 2007, 02:59:05 AM
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


I think when we decide on who is going to be the next XO we challenge them to a dual. That way you only have to buy two. Maybe we could do away with the 2b. And instead of resign! HAVE them FALL on their Sword. Think of the possibilities.
1. strap it to a 182 wing strut and have low level stick-um missions, on the border.
 2. On CD missions we can spot and harvest.
 3. Teach those pesky F-16s to get too close.
 4. we could field a CAP fencing team at the Olympics.
 5. I can have a Military wedding, with swords.

On that note, I think your handle fits you perfectly.. ;D

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 29, 2007, 11:24:14 PM
At a wedding, under Air Force rules of ettiquette, the sword-bearers cannot be the ushers.  Don't know why, and I sure don't know anybody getting married who wants to spring for an arch of swords at $300 a pop, and in fact I have no idea why I posted this useless piece of trivia.

Actally in the case of ceremonies (official or not) the base or unit At least in the USMC and Navy issue swords from their armories just for that occasion. Of course true lifers have their own.

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 30, 2007, 03:00:11 AM

Quote from: MIKE on August 30, 2007, 02:58:21 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 30, 2007, 02:55:26 AM
Whaddya gonna do with a sword? Hang it on your wall? Play "CAP Musketeers"?  >:D

"There can be only one."

Too bad the applause icon isn't working.... ;D

On the other hand, how many people will get it?

"I am Connor MacLeod of the Clan MacLeod. I was born in 1518 in the village of Glenfinnan on the shores of Loch Shiel. And I am immortal."

Quote from: lordmonar on August 30, 2007, 03:43:54 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 30, 2007, 03:00:11 AM

Quote from: MIKE on August 30, 2007, 02:58:21 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 30, 2007, 02:55:26 AM
Whaddya gonna do with a sword? Hang it on your wall? Play "CAP Musketeers"?  >:D

"There can be only one."

Too bad the applause icon isn't working.... ;D

On the other hand, how many people will get it?

"I am Connor MacLeod of the Clan MacLeod. I was born in 1518 in the village of Glenfinnan on the shores of Loch Shiel. And I am immortal."

Glad someone did. Either I'm not that old, or I have good company.

The only sword needed by a CAP officer is the little plastic one that is run through the olive in his martini

CAPM 52-16 1-4 (c) states: "There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any device that could be used as a weapon at any cadet activity."

A sword (even a ceremonial/replica sword) seems to fit the prohibited category.

Are ceremonial swords used @ AF Academy?

Anywhere else in USAF?

Cadets themselves are far more dangerous than a ceremonial sword with dull edges.  They don't need pointy things.

We need to read the full sentence "... at any CADET ACTIVITY" (emphasis mine)  I would not consider a Wing Conference or Banquet, a CAP Wedding, or any number of other activites where ceremonial dress is appropriate and there might be Cadets present but not the major players in the activity, to be a "CADET ACTIVITY."  YMMV

Quote from: Al Sayre on August 30, 2007, 07:19:03 AM
We need to read the full sentence "... at any CADET ACTIVITY" (emphasis mine)  I would not consider a Wing Conference or Banquet, a CAP Wedding, or any number of other activites where ceremonial dress is appropriate and there might be Cadets present but not the major players in the activity, to be a "CADET ACTIVITY."  YMMV

We should have all sorts of weapons and dangerous things at SLS and CLC.  ::jots down a note::  oooo I can't wait to direct my first SLS...   :)  Weapons are fun!

Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 30, 2007, 06:48:32 AM
CAPM 52-16 1-4 (c) states: "There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any device that could be used as a weapon at any cadet activity."

A sword (even a ceremonial/replica sword) seems to fit the prohibited category.

Are ceremonial swords used @ AF Academy?

Anywhere else in USAF?

I think that ceremonial swords ARE used at the Air Force Academy.  As far as anywhere else in the Air Force, I'm not sure.  Such use is very uncommon, in any case. 

The only evidence I can find on short notice is the AF prohibition on using sword-bearers at military weddings as ushers.  Such a prohibilition indicates that it is possible to have a traditional arch of swords.

If anyone is interested, I have several 1840 U.S. Cavalry sabers (*swords?) for sale. I believe they are reproductions and if you are a Civil War recreator just what you are looking for.  I got them for a Squadron fund raiser to sell at the Civil War battle recreations around the country.

I think every officer being promoted to Colonel should get a CAP sword. Not that I'm all up the Colonels' rudders, but it seems fitting. Becoming a Wing CC, becoming a corporate officer... and you know they're lifers anyway.

I think CAPblog quoted my Highlander quote.  :)

How much for the sabre Col. B? 8)

Someone said Swords shouldn't be a part of CAP because we've never used them as weapons, historically speaking. Does that person think we should start issuing bombs to Colonels? We have historically used bombs as part of our mission.

Quote from: afgeo4 on August 30, 2007, 08:18:21 PM
Someone said Swords shouldn't be a part of CAP because we've never used them as weapons, historically speaking. Does that person think we should start issuing bombs to Colonels? We have historically used bombs as part of our mission.

Don't be ridiculous.  Would YOU trust a Colonel with a bomb??   :)

Swords are to be issued to Members of the National Board for wear with the TPU. Teh concept is to facilitate the backstabbing which has been going on for years without designated weapon.

Quote from: afgeo4 on August 30, 2007, 08:18:21 PM
Someone said Swords shouldn't be a part of CAP because we've never used them as weapons, historically speaking. Does that person think we should start issuing bombs to Colonels? We have historically used bombs as part of our mission.

You're kidding, right? I don't think they have a place, but to even suggest bombs? Please, tell me you're joking.

Quote from: MIKE on August 30, 2007, 06:42:07 PM
I think CAPblog quoted my Highlander quote.  :)

As long as I dont find out that Sean Connery joined CAP, I'm okay with that, lol
:D :D ;D ;D :D :D

Quote from: JC004 on August 30, 2007, 08:25:04 PM

Quote from: afgeo4 on August 30, 2007, 08:18:21 PM
Someone said Swords shouldn't be a part of CAP because we've never used them as weapons, historically speaking. Does that person think we should start issuing bombs to Colonels? We have historically used bombs as part of our mission.

Don't be ridiculous.  Would YOU trust a Colonel with a bomb??   :)

No, but maybe a hand grenade.

Back on topic:

Quote from: CAPLAW on August 30, 2007, 08:15:26 PM
How much for the sabre Col. B? 8)

About $300, plus the $7 shipping

Caplaw,   Was asking $60 plus shipping.

I think only Marines (officers and NCOs) are issued Swords, Navy and Army Officers, and I think it needs to be left at that. They may use swords at USAFA, but no where in the active Air Force (except maybe  Washington) are Swords a part of USAF lore, at least I never saw a sword as part of a USAF mess dress uniform.

There is no history in CAP that is "sword-specific" or would justify the Sword as a realistic addition to the uniform, there is no history in CAP that is dependent on the Sword, unlike the Marines, and the history of the Mamaluke Sword in Marine Corps lore.

In the USMC D&C Manual there are whole chapters on Sword-related Drill and Ceremonies, and there is also a chapter on D&C for Swords at Weddings.

Quote from: MIKE on August 30, 2007, 06:42:07 PM
I think CAPblog quoted my Highlander quote.  :)

Guilty.

;D

- M6

^ Makes me feel special.   8)

1)
I was under the impression that (among Officers) Swords were given upon graduation from a Service Academy. So will this sword be presented upon completion of Iowa's OTS  >:D or Nationals NSC or the like?

Anyone in the know feel free to correct me.  :)

2) Can those of you on the forum with a 'real' Military Sword/Saber/Pointy Thing post pics for comparison? - And maybe the circumstances of your coming into possession of said item. :angel:

Anyone have a link for the Sword Manual of Arms?   ::)

3) Including the cost of this PointyThing^TM, what does Mess Dress add up to? :o


P.S )
I vote that all Nebraska Admirals or any CAP Officer wearing Mess Dress on a Cruise MUST equip themselves with this PointyThing^TM in order to repel boarders and open the pop tabs on beverages. (Kegs)  >:D

- Donning Bunker Gear -

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on August 31, 2007, 11:00:38 AM
1)
I vote that all Nebraska Admirals or any CAP Officer wearing Mess Dress on a Cruise MUST equip themselves with this PointyThing^TM in order to repel boarders and open the pop tabs on beverages. (Kegs)  >:D

Oh, goody!  That means I get one!!!

Jack

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on August 31, 2007, 11:00:38 AM

Anyone have a link for the Sword Manual of Arms?   ::)

Check out the USMC Drill and Ceremonies Manual, Chapter 5

http://www.olemiss.edu/depts/naval_science/Forms/DrillManual.pdf

Quote from: dougsnow on August 31, 2007, 11:55:01 AM

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on August 31, 2007, 11:00:38 AM

Anyone have a link for the Sword Manual of Arms?   ::)

Check out the USMC Drill and Ceremonies Manual, Chapter 5

http://www.olemiss.edu/depts/naval_science/Forms/DrillManual.pdf

Wow!  You make me nostalgic.  I was a Midshipman, USNR in that outfit in 1957.  We learned the manual of arms for sword, and I never used it again, although I was expected to buy one when I got commissioned.  Dern thing is hanging on the wall right in front of me, even as I type.

By the time I got commissioned (Army) the saber was optional.  The only guys who ever bought them that I knew about were the guys commissioned into the Armor branch, since they considered themselves to be the heirs of the Cavalry tradition.

Quote from: ColonelJack on August 31, 2007, 11:33:35 AM

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on August 31, 2007, 11:00:38 AM
1)
I vote that all Nebraska Admirals or any CAP Officer wearing Mess Dress on a Cruise MUST equip themselves with this PointyThing^TM in order to repel boarders and open the pop tabs on beverages. (Kegs)  >:D

Oh, goody!  That means I get one!!!

Jack

We could all be CAP (Civil Air Pirates)  >:D

Well, John, you know what they say about my service (Marine Corp).  Two hundred thirty-two years of tradition unspoiled by progress.  I was surprised to note in one of the posts in this thread that newly minted Marine Officers are no longer expected to purchase their swords.  As an aside to Calen, the gift of the sword to academy graduates comes from their family; it is a tradition, and least at Annapolis.  (I didn't go there, I just have a lot of friends who did.)

I was a wingie in the Marines, while the 03s might have still been using swords in ceremonies, we never did.  So I have this beautiful unused sword with a Mamaluke hilt hanging on my brag wall.

Quote from: LtCol White on August 31, 2007, 02:29:19 PM
[We could all be CAP (Civil Air Pirates)  >:D

Arrrrrrr, Matey!  Avast, there, and swag out the bilge!  Hard a-starboard!  Bring the guns to bear! 

......sorry, I went away there for a moment, but I'm back now.

What the heck did I just say, anyway?

Jack

Quote from: ColonelJack on August 31, 2007, 06:18:09 PM

Quote from: LtCol White on August 31, 2007, 02:29:19 PM
[We could all be CAP (Civil Air Pirates)  >:D

Arrrrrrr, Matey!  Avast, there, and swag out the bilge!  Hard a-starboard!  Bring the guns to bear! 

......sorry, I went away there for a moment, but I'm back now.

What the heck did I just say, anyway?

Jack

But isn't "Civil Air Pirates" a great idea for a T-shirt or an unauthorized flight suit patch?

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 31, 2007, 06:25:44 PM

Quote from: ColonelJack on August 31, 2007, 06:18:09 PM

Quote from: LtCol White on August 31, 2007, 02:29:19 PM
[We could all be CAP (Civil Air Pirates)  >:D

Arrrrrrr, Matey!  Avast, there, and swag out the bilge!  Hard a-starboard!  Bring the guns to bear! 

......sorry, I went away there for a moment, but I'm back now.

What the heck did I just say, anyway?

Jack

But isn't "Civil Air Pirates" a great idea for a T-shirt or an unauthorized flight suit patch?

Where would we put it?  With AUXON/AUXOFF on one side and Transformers on the other, we're running short on space.

The USAF has three distinct swords, that I know of.  The Academy sword, the standard AD sword and there is, I believe, a distinct sword for members of the AF band.

Here is the manufacturer: http://www.militarysabers.com/air-force-sword-hi.html

While on AD I saw swords in mess dress on several occasions.  Always thought it looked smart.  Instead of the argument that the AF and CAP have never used swords as part of our history, I think there is another way to look at it.

The sword today is ceremonial and symbolic.  Yes, the sword can denote warfighting ability.  But it can also be used for defense.  Since our inception, the CAP has fought to protect our fellow citizens.  We fight the weather, time, natural disasters and even our own administration at times!

The point is, maybe we as CAP should look at this as an opportunity.  An opportunity to change our image from just a bunch a wannabes to an actual effective component of the USAF.  Sure we don't do CSAR, but the SAR we do does, IMHO, qualify us as protectors and if folks want to shell out $300 and wear a sword with mess dress, let em.

Me? I want a new DF unit!  Can I wear that with mess dress?

Quote from: LtCol White on August 29, 2007, 09:44:29 PM

Quote from: MIKE on August 29, 2007, 09:07:07 PM

Quote from: sandman on August 29, 2007, 09:00:22 PM
I like the idea of having this sword. Although a bit out of most individuals budgets especially individual squadrons, I could see a wing procuring several of these gems for an honor guard program.

Strictly verboten by CAPP 52-8.

But if the people wearing swords are the only ones with them....how will someone take them away?!  >:D

With the M-14's from the other thread...

I always bring a gun to a knife fight. [Insert Indiana Jones clip here.]  :)

The band members do have a PointyThing ^TM I saw it once during a concert in DC.  It was more a dagger then a sword, VERY short

Two things that buyers of HIGH PRICED regalia should ask themselves is...

"How many CAP capable radios might this buy?"  and/or "What percent of a CAP radio would this buy?"

The most expensive CAP item I have ever bought was a Service coat...the next big purchase will be to donate a SQUADRON FLAG to our unit.

Quote from: LtCol White on August 29, 2007, 06:26:23 PM
So they sell them but they arent on the website?? And what was the price of this little gem?

Gee... stuff that Vanguard has that's not on their website?  I've NEVER heard of THAT before!  ;D

Quote from: JC004 on August 29, 2007, 08:05:17 PM
Intel report: Vanguard CAP supervisor tells me that it will be added to the site.  They have a number of things that are going to be added, and they are working on adjusting all the mistakes in item identification and such.

Their site has been under construction longer than a Florida state highway.

There's nothing goofier looking than an old guy with a sword. I'm an old guy. I don't want a sword. Please don't make it a 39-1 item... please. If you thought Mike Dukakis looked dumb in a tank... give me a sword and I'll show you dumb.

With regards; ED OBRIEN

Quote from: winterg on August 31, 2007, 07:24:10 PM
The point is, maybe we as CAP should look at this as an opportunity.  An opportunity to change our image from just a bunch a wannabes to an actual effective component of the USAF.  Sure we don't do CSAR, but the SAR we do does, IMHO, qualify us as protectors and if folks want to shell out $300 and wear a sword with mess dress, let em.

You could never consider wearing a USAF as part of being a wannabe.  Considering that the only swords I ever saw at a USAF function were worn by the Honor Guard or used by the Senior Officer and Junior Enlisted to cut the Birthday cake, the USAF really doesn't use them. 

Hey, I just had a thought...

MAybe we can resolve the old "Ninjas vs. Pirates" debate with these things.

Take away all their Ninja and Pirate gear, give them blunt-yet-pointy CAP sabres and let them duel to the death!

Yes, yes, I've found a use for them!

It's just a big knife that has almost no relevance to a flying organization, be it CAP or the Air Force.

It's even more silly that they'd offer an officer sword for a NONCOMBAT organization. We're not at the tip of the spear. We're closer to the other end of the shaft, if not the box in which the darn thing came out of.

It's a nice keepsake, I guess. But the first time I saw someone try wearing it with a uniform, I'd instantly think that person was a dork. A machete is more practical in CAP, dontcha think?

I have always been one for the historical significance behind uniform items.  CAP and the Air Force have NO historical reference to carrying swords or sabres.  I know the AF has them, but at least the go into battle.

The Army, Navy and Marines used them in battle.  I don't think the AF was ever issued the sword as an actual weapon, not to mention CAP.

It screams WANNA-BE.  I would just have to laugh and shake my head.

Quote from: Flying Pig on July 10, 2008, 07:07:49 PM
I have always been one for the historical significance behind uniform items.  CAP and the Air Force have NO historical reference to carrying swords or sabres.

The Army, Navy and Marines used them in battle.  I don't think the AF was ever issued the sword as an actual weapon, not to mention CAP.

It screams WANNA-BE.  I would just have to laugh and shake my head.

Yes, for ceremonial purposes, the Air Force really ought to be using highly polished pitot tubes.  ;)

Might I suggest the Orange Shroud Knife is not only appropriate to the Air Force but for ceremonial purposes a 3 or 4 foot over-sized version of this folding knife sticking out of your pants would look equally goofy to the sword.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

Here's one that CAP might authorize, and the price is right!
http://www.militarysabers.com/letter-openers/air-force-mini.html (http://www.militarysabers.com/letter-openers/air-force-mini.html)

We have ceremonial rifles... I don't understand what the big deal is about having a ceremonial sword.

Besides the fact that it just looks silly.

If you'd like to see goofy. On the web there is a picture of a bunch of American soldiers marching between Sadam's crossed hands and swords in Baghdad's Green Zone... carrying M4s hiked up to their shoulders. It looks like big soldier's marching with toy guns. I can't find it at the moment but it is on the web. It is not the best looking parade I've ever seen although I mean no disrespect to those marching. However it occurred, I doubt it was well considered and once they looked at it, I don't think they did it again.

With regards; ED OBRIEN

Quote from: Nathan on July 10, 2008, 09:58:34 PM
We have ceremonial rifles... I don't understand what the big deal is about having a ceremonial sword.

Besides the fact that it just looks silly.

I knew this one was coming.........

CAP doesn't use rifles either as part of our mission, however, some concessions have to be made in the interest of some military traditions.  The sword is just a whole different case.

Quote from: Flying Pig on July 10, 2008, 11:21:47 PM

Quote from: Nathan on July 10, 2008, 09:58:34 PM
We have ceremonial rifles... I don't understand what the big deal is about having a ceremonial sword.

Besides the fact that it just looks silly.

I knew this one was coming.........

CAP doesn't use rifles either as part of our mission, however, some concessions have to be made in the interest of some military traditions.  The sword is just a whole different case.

A whole different case? You mean just a whole different tradition?

The sword really is one of the lowest priorities imaginable on my list of thing important I'd like to support in Civil Air Patrol, but banning it just 'cause that's not something we've done before is a little silly. To be honest, I'd say that the swords, especially polished, shiny swords, look MUCH better than some of the beat-up old pieces of driftwood I see some honor guards using... If we want to talk about respecting the flag, then swords really CAN look more professional than a rifle.

Granted, anyone who can afford a couple of $300 swords should be able to afford some nice rifles, but the point is the same.

Man.....Swords are just a real bad idea.  I don't know how I would be able to tell little Marc's mother that he was killed when he tripped and fell on his sword.

CAP has a huge issue when a pilot bangs his wing into a hangar.  Can you imagine what would happen the very first time a finger goes missing because someones sword was being waved around.

No one here can honestly say that nothing bad will happen.  Bad things always happen, and are inevitable.

Plus, I am very accident prone.  I don't want to lose and eye or ear.   

Quote from: mikeylikey on July 10, 2008, 11:59:24 PM
CAP has a huge issue when a pilot bangs his wing into a hangar.  Can you imagine what would happen the very first time a finger goes missing because someones sword was being waved around.

I was under the impression that the swords did not have sharp blades. And if they did, it's not particularly difficult to dull them.

As for the point, you may as well bar cadets from holding pencils... They have a much higher chance of landing on the point of a 5 inch pencil than a several foot long sword by accidently tripping...

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on July 10, 2008, 06:26:43 PM
It's even more silly that they'd offer an officer sword for a NONCOMBAT organization.

Yeah, I agree.

I wonder why USPHS wears them????

Why do Doctors do anything? -- Because they can.

Quote from: Stonewall on August 29, 2007, 06:40:07 PM
I bet, after this thread, the sales of the CAP Sword will increase ten-fold.  Lots of people make fun overtly, but inside, they're looking at their check book to see if they can afford it.

The first time I see a CAP Officer carrying around a CAP sword, I'll turn in my 2A for retirement.

Off Topic: Are you even old enough for CAP retirement?

Quote from: O-Rex on July 11, 2008, 03:44:36 PM
I wonder why USPHS wears them????

Emergency surgery?

I have an Air Force Officer's sword. We use it primarily for cutting the cakes at promotion ceremonies, banquets, etc. No one has lost an eye yet....

Major Lord

Quote from: Major Lord on July 14, 2008, 02:10:37 PM
I have an Air Force Officer's sword. We use it primarily for cutting the cakes at promotion ceremonies, banquets, etc. No one has lost an eye yet....

Major Lord

and?  You are not a 12 year old kid.......................

Quote from: mikeylikey on July 14, 2008, 03:29:02 PM

Quote from: Major Lord on July 14, 2008, 02:10:37 PM
I have an Air Force Officer's sword. We use it primarily for cutting the cakes at promotion ceremonies, banquets, etc. No one has lost an eye yet....

Major Lord

and?  You are not a 12 year old kid.......................

I don't quite see your point. (no cutting-edge pun intended) I thought this thread was about CAP swords, not whether we should be arming 12 year olds.

I still remember with great glee two Ventura Military Academy Cadets drawing down their sabers at me and saluting like they were on the parade ground at West Point. In this case it was Ft. Hunter Ligett in the heat of summer, and I have to say two little badgers rendering sword courtesies  with blades 2/3 their own height was very keen! ( pun intended)

Major Lord

Quote from: Major Lord on July 14, 2008, 02:10:37 PM
I have an Air Force Officer's sword. We use it primarily for cutting the cakes at promotion ceremonies, banquets, etc. No one has lost an eye yet....

Major Lord

hey do you have any pics of that sword. I like to see them :)
Why do you use it to cut cakes, do some sword practicing :D

Edit:
Opps .. I saw later that this is real old and I am sorry about that. messed up in first post :(

I can hear the thunderous "NO!" from our Safety Officer once he finds out about this.

It looks sharp (ouch) but I haven't that kind of disposable income for Come And Pay needs as it is.

USPHS is not a combat service, but they, along with the Navy (in certain situations) provide medical care for the Coast Guard (which is a combat service), so I can see where they could be tasked under combat conditions.

I guess I'll have to stick with my official, George Lucas-sanctioned replica lightsabre. 

Quote from: CyBorg on February 27, 2010, 08:31:48 AM
I can hear the thunderous "NO!" from our Safety Officer once he finds out about this.

It looks sharp (ouch) but I haven't that kind of disposable income for Come And Pay needs as it is.

USPHS is not a combat service, but they, along with the Navy (in certain situations) provide medical care for the Coast Guard (which is a combat service), so I can see where they could be tasked under combat conditions.

I guess I'll have to stick with my official, George Lucas-sanctioned replica lightsabre.

It's Lightsaber, not lightsabre.  grrr

There was a pic up at the start of the thread. . .  IDK if its still there.

(http://jcolgan004.googlepages.com/sword1.jpg)

What was the purpose of this sword?  Decorative?  Knighting Wing Commanders?  I heard, saw and read discussion, but what was it intended to be?

Quote from: Major Carrales on February 27, 2010, 08:22:51 PM
What was the purpose of this sword?  Decorative?  Knighting Wing Commanders?  I heard, saw and read discussion, but what was it intended to be?

Only to separate someone from their cash.  I saw it in person at the national board a couple of years ago.  Horrible artwork, no reason for it.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 31, 2007, 06:25:44 PM

Quote from: ColonelJack on August 31, 2007, 06:18:09 PM

Quote from: LtCol White on August 31, 2007, 02:29:19 PM
[We could all be CAP (Civil Air Pirates)  >:D

Arrrrrrr, Matey!  Avast, there, and swag out the bilge!  Hard a-starboard!  Bring the guns to bear! 

......sorry, I went away there for a moment, but I'm back now.

What the heck did I just say, anyway?

Jack

But isn't "Civil Air Pirates" a great idea for a T-shirt or an unauthorized flight suit patch?

OK, I need one of those.  Maybe another to hang on the wall-o-patches I have at work.  Did anyone design this yet?

(http://www.wolveshollow.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Civil-Air-Pirates-sm.jpg)

Just of the cuff...

Quote from: Dracosbane on February 28, 2010, 06:03:02 AM
(http://www.wolveshollow.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Civil-Air-Pirates-sm.jpg)

Just of the cuff...

Nice job!  I can't think of any bit changes, but I'd like to see it with a white or blue background to see how it'd look. 

You know, I think there is a good argument for CAP's claim to piracy..We did prey on enemy shipping without any lawful authority to do so.....I am pretty sure the Germans or Japanese would have made us walk the plank or beheaded us as brigands if they were able to lay hands on us....Scurvy dogs!

Major Lord

Pre-emptive preying...  ;-) All justified when it was those pesky little yellow and blue airplanes that drove them off .. ;)

.. cause them to fall on their swords and leave.

(http://www.wolveshollow.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Civil-Air-Pirates-sm-2.jpg)

Blue.  White really wouldn't work well.  The blue's ok with it being a darker color.

Quote from: Major Lord on February 28, 2010, 02:32:36 PM
You know, I think there is a good argument for CAP's claim to piracy..We did prey on enemy shipping without any lawful authority to do so.....

I'm hoping you're joking about this.  Seeing as how we were being directed by our counties armed forces you couldn't even make a claim that we were privateers, much less pirates.

I also don't think we "preyed" on enemy shipping, unless you're counting German U-boats as shipping vessels, which is a stretch. 

Unless there's some dark part of CAP's history that we're not being told. 

Those rogues.    >:D ;D

Quote from: RiverAux on February 28, 2010, 05:48:47 PM

Quote from: Major Lord on February 28, 2010, 02:32:36 PM
You know, I think there is a good argument for CAP's claim to piracy..We did prey on enemy shipping without any lawful authority to do so.....

I'm hoping you're joking about this.  Seeing as how we were being directed by our counties armed forces you couldn't even make a claim that we were privateers, much less pirates.

No, we were not privateers, we did not have letters of Marque, acting without any lawful authority to carry out war against our Country's enemies. We were just following orders, as the man said ( shortly before swinging from the yardarm at Nuremburg...) We were not really pirates either, since, although we preyed on the enemy, we did not do so for plunder or the usual perks of piracy. We were somewhere in between.( It would be an excellent source of fund raising if Congress would give us letters of Marque and Reprisal!)  I think the best we could hope for if caught by an enemy ( during the declared states of war) would have been to receive the status of volunteer, regular militia. Congress never authorized CAP to wage war, and if the enemy was aware that we did so and our status, shooting us out of hand would not be out of the question. Of course, in our new and improved "non-combatant and benevolent" role, dropping satchel charges on the enemy would likely see us stood against the wall as enemy agents without legal prerogatives. Kind of like what would happen to the Salvation Army if they started shooting at the enemy..... Now don't get me wrong, I think CAP should happily take up arms against Americas enemies if called to do so, but I know lots of people in CAP who did not sign up with that possibility in mind! FYI, a ship of war can be taken as prey, just as can enemy flag vessels.

Major Lord

Quote from: MIKE on August 29, 2007, 09:07:07 PM

Quote from: sandman on August 29, 2007, 09:00:22 PM
I like the idea of having this sword. Although a bit out of most individuals budgets especially individual squadrons, I could see a wing procuring several of these gems for an honor guard program.

Strictly verboten by CAPP 52-8.

Can't wait for the NCAC proposal authorizing their wear--for our bling-loving NCAC Chairman, at least.

Quote from: Mustang on February 28, 2010, 10:12:49 PM

Quote from: MIKE on August 29, 2007, 09:07:07 PM

Quote from: sandman on August 29, 2007, 09:00:22 PM
I like the idea of having this sword. Although a bit out of most individuals budgets especially individual squadrons, I could see a wing procuring several of these gems for an honor guard program.

Strictly verboten by CAPP 52-8.

Can't wait for the NCAC proposal authorizing their wear--for our bling-loving NCAC Chairman, at least.

Something against a cadet wearing awards that the organization he belongs to awarded him and says he can wear?

Quote from: jimmydeanno on February 28, 2010, 11:11:30 PM
Something against a cadet wearing awards that the organization he belongs to awarded him and says he can wear?

If it becomes a preoccupation, you bet. 

All the pictures of said cadet I've seen have been in service dress, when he's required by regs to wear all "bling."

AYEEEE   Matey   Where's me parrot?!!

Arrrgh Ayyee  how come these CAP swashbucklers can produce 9 pages of threads regarding me swords, arghhhhh

Many a scurvy cake has gone to Davey Jones' locker at the the point of me Air Force Rapier!

Major Lord

I didn't know today was Talk Like a Pirate day.