So I was reading on the Internet, and on http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2701/~/cap-organizational-excellence-award-(afoea). It said, The Air Force is in the process of determining wear requirements for the AFOEA and we will let CAP members know what those requirements are just as soon as we receive them from the Air Force. What I am confused about is why is there a lot of debate about this award and how long do you think it will take to solve the problem. The main thing is what is the big obstacle from keeping us from wearing this or is there an obstacle at all?
Thank you
Well, as it is an AD award, anyone who wear AF blues could theoretically wear the AFOUA without too many problems.
Now, the problem is for the Corporate folks. The corporate uniforms do not allow for AD awards. So, do we just not let them join in on the festivities? Do we make an allowance for just this award? Do we not allow anyone to wear it and just have something hanging on the wall? That's what the AF is determining.
Add the additional wrinkle of CAP members who are also AD/NG/RES members of the Air Force.....or may become one in the future.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 17, 2017, 05:00:04 AM
Add the additional wrinkle of CAP members who are also AD/NG/RES members of the Air Force.....or may become one in the future.
That's true too. I don't know if, as an AD member, my membership in CAP allows wear of an AFOUA even if my AD unit has never earned it. Again, this is what the AF is determing. Though it may seem simple, there are a lot of things that the AF are looking at in terms of wear of the award.
This is a difficult task for the AF because the award is for military members. While technically civilian employees of organizations that earn this award receive it too, they don't wear a uniform so there isn't an issue of if they can wear the ribbon or not. For current or former military, they are not assigned to CAP through official USAF orders so technically they can't wear it either. Then there is the issue of wearing (and earning) a military decoration by minors (cadets) and those adults who are not military.
Lots of layers to this issue and it will probably require an ICL to AFI 36-2803, CAPR 39-3 and CAPM 39-1.
Do you know long it will take or a ballpark estimate of when the higher ups will make a decision? One more month? Two?
Thank you
Quote from: Arc light on April 17, 2017, 02:28:46 PM
Do you know long it will take or a ballpark estimate of when the higher ups will make a decision? One more month? Two?
Thank you
I doubt it is a very high priority with the USAF so it could take a VERY long time.
As in months, or possibly years. Don't hold your breath. Find something more important to devote your time to.
I know several members of the CGAux who were awarded the MUC and wear it with no problem. If it was the intention of the AF that CAP members not wear the award, it wouldn't have been awarded.
Quote from: MSG Mac on April 17, 2017, 06:28:24 PM
I know several members of the CGAux who were awarded the MUC and wear it with no problem. If it was the intention of the AF that CAP members not wear the award, it wouldn't have been awarded.
You said it right there Coast Guard Auxiliary. Different service, different rules...
Quote from: MSG Mac on April 17, 2017, 06:28:24 PM
I know several members of the CGAux who were awarded the MUC and wear it with no problem. If it was the intention of the AF that CAP members not wear the award, it wouldn't have been awarded.
The "question" was likely never even considered to be a problem.
Any other time the USAF presents the award, either those receiving it are authorized the wear with no question (service personnel),
or have no means to wear it at all (civilian personnel).
The question of whether non-service civilians could or should wear it on an auxiliary's military-style uniform was likely brought up sometime after it was awarded,
and that doesn't even bring into play the further questions of whether service personnel who are also CAP members could wear it on their military uniforms,
nor how it looks generally to present an award ~50% of the membership could never wear regardless due to the lack of uniform choice.
This was a "Hey, that'd be nice." gesture as a culmination of the anniversary year, nothing more, nothing less. Based solely on the published
criteria, it's still questionable as to whether CAP actually qualified at all, except that, just as with some "interesting" internal CAP decorations,
qualified or not, the award was, in fact,
presented, making that particular branch of the argument moot.
The streamer is the beginning and the end of the dec, move on.
Just to throw a little gasoline on this fire...
As was pointed out the US Coast Guard Auxiliary routinely awards Military Unit Citations (PUC-CG, CGUC, MUC-CG, etc.), certain Military Service ribbons (Special Operations Service Ribbon, Coast Guard Recruiting Service Ribbon, etc.) and occasionally decorations (Gold and Silver Lifesaving Medals) to Auxiliarists. As was also pointed out, different Service different rules but for anyone trying to make the case for the benefit of CAP members to be able to wear it as an actual decoration on the USAF Style uniforms, they could cite this as an argument "FOR" authorizing this.
Again, different rules for different Services, but whenever I was awarded a USCG Decoration, I was able to get a copy of the Award uploaded into the Army's iPERMS system, have the award properly documented on my DA Form 2-1 and in my online ORB and was granted authorization to wear them on my Army uniform. Only once did my Reserve unit ask for additional documentation, which was a simple memorandum stating I was a member of the unit at the time the unit award was presented and that I was entitled to its award.
So depending on how the Air Force handles this process on the distribution and wear of the AFOEA by CAP, members who are also AC, RC or NG Servicemembers may be able to carry it over to their respective Services.
Quote from: shuman14 on April 19, 2017, 01:55:33 PM
Just to throw a little gasoline on this fire...
As was pointed out the US Coast Guard Auxiliary routinely awards Military Unit Citations (PUC-CG, CGUC, MUC-CG, etc.), certain Military Service ribbons (Special Operations Service Ribbon, Coast Guard Recruiting Service Ribbon, etc.) and occasionally decorations (Gold and Silver Lifesaving Medals) to Auxiliarists. As was also pointed out, different Service different rules but for anyone trying to make the case for the benefit of CAP members to be able to wear it as an actual decoration on the USAF Style uniforms, they could cite this as an argument "FOR" authorizing this.
Again, different rules for different Services, but whenever I was awarded a USCG Decoration, I was able to get a copy of the Award uploaded into the Army's iPERMS system, have the award properly documented on my DA Form 2-1 and in my online ORB and was granted authorization to wear them on my Army uniform. Only once did my Reserve unit ask for additional documentation, which was a simple memorandum stating I was a member of the unit at the time the unit award was presented and that I was entitled to its award.
So depending on how the Air Force handles this process on the distribution and wear of the AFOEA by CAP, members who are also AC, RC or NG Servicemembers may be able to carry it over to their respective Services.
Those are all very good points but I'm thinking the real problem with the AFOEA ribbon wear are cadets. I do not think that the Air Force wants to give a military decoration to a minor. That is just my thought.
QuoteThose are all very good points but I'm thinking the real problem with the AFOEA ribbon wear are cadets. I do not think that the Air Force wants to give a military decoration to a minor. That is just my thought.
I could see that as an issue but the Cadets at West Point were all awarded NDSM so I would guess the Air Force Academy Cadets got them too. I would think it's possible for a Freshman to be only 17 and technically a minor but be in the various Academies.
Also I know it's possible to enlisted in the Army Reserve or the Army National Guard at 17, while a Junior in High School and attend Basic Training during the summer between your Junior and Senior years. You need a parent/guardian permission and a letter from the principal stating the enlistee is "on track to graduate" and that Military service will not interfere with their academic program.
So it's quite possible to be in the Military and be a minor, but the USAF is different from the Army so different rules.
Quote from: shuman14 on April 19, 2017, 04:52:11 PM
QuoteThose are all very good points but I'm thinking the real problem with the AFOEA ribbon wear are cadets. I do not think that the Air Force wants to give a military decoration to a minor. That is just my thought.
I could see that as an issue but the Cadets at West Point were all awarded NDSM so I would guess the Air Force Academy Cadets got them too. I would think it's possible for a Freshman to be only 17 and technically a minor but be in the various Academies.
Also I know it's possible to enlisted in the Army Reserve or the Army National Guard at 17, while a Junior in High School and attend Basic Training during the summer between your Junior and Senior years. You need a parent/guardian permission and a letter from the principal stating the enlistee is "on track to graduate" and that Military service will not interfere with their academic program.
So it's quite possible to be in the Military and be a minor, but the USAF is different from the Army so different rules.
Everyone you mentioned is in the military so that is a big difference between them and an 8th grade cadet.
QuoteEveryone you mentioned is in the military so that is a big difference between them and an 8th grade cadet.
True that is a big difference but to point back to the USCG Auxiliary you can be 17 and never in the Military and be awarded USCG decorations.
Bottom line is the USAF is gonna do what it wants to do regarding this Award and our opinions will mean little in that decision.
So stand by to standby.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 17, 2017, 05:00:04 AM
Add the additional wrinkle of CAP members who are also AD/NG/RES members of the Air Force.....or may become one in the future.
And retired. I received this award twice while I was on active duty.
Quote from: SarDragon on April 17, 2017, 04:59:43 PM
Find something more important to devote your time to.
I've wanted to say that in a few dozen other threads over the last few months, but didn't have the nerve. >:D
Ribbon chasers[emoji954][emoji954][emoji954] every body gets a medal
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Forgive the intrusion from probably very few CT habitues' favourite former CAP member. No, I have not been successful at rejoining CAP but I am at last at a measure of peace with it - not completely there, but on the way.
I am back in the CG Auxiliary (and it's groovy, man) and a few weeks ago I e-mailed Susie Parker about this ribbon. I was in CAP during the time eligible and I asked Ms Parker about wearing the AFOEA ribbon on my CGAux uniform. CAP ribbons cannot be worn on the CGAux uniform but of course certain Air Force ones can.
Her reply was 'the Air Force has not yet made a decision on who can wear it and until they do I have to say "no, not at this time."'
So I will await with no great alacrity the decision of the brass of a sister service (fancy way of saying 'if they authorise it, cool; if not, life goes on.'
I suggest that my former CAP colleagues do the same, though I understand the significance of what is probably the first potential authorisation by the AF for CAP to wear an active AF ribbon.
If you earned the AFOEA while a CAP member, you only have to worry about getting proof of it, not whether it is allowed wear on the CAP uniform. You should not ask CAP personnel on wearing it on your CG Aux uniform. You should ask CG Aux chain of command that since you earned the award while a member of CAP you want to wear it on the CG Aux uniform. Not Susie Parker since she is not in your chain anymore.
It should not matter what is the CAP policy. CAP is CAP, and CG Aux is CG Aux.
Do not base your decisions on what the CAP does, did, or will do.
Quote from: CyBorgII on May 01, 2017, 01:23:48 AM
Forgive the intrusion from probably very few CT habitues' favourite former CAP member. No, I have not been successful at rejoining CAP but I am at last at a measure of peace with it - not completely there, but on the way.
I am back in the CG Auxiliary (and it's groovy, man) and a few weeks ago I e-mailed Susie Parker about this ribbon. I was in CAP during the time eligible and I asked Ms Parker about wearing the AFOEA ribbon on my CGAux uniform. CAP ribbons cannot be worn on the CGAux uniform but of course certain Air Force ones can.
Her reply was 'the Air Force has not yet made a decision on who can wear it and until they do I have to say "no, not at this time."'
So I will await with no great alacrity the decision of the brass of a sister service (fancy way of saying 'if they authorise it, cool; if not, life goes on.'
I suggest that my former CAP colleagues do the same, though I understand the significance of what is probably the first potential authorisation by the AF for CAP to wear an active AF ribbon.
Just as a historical note, there were those "Belligerents" who participated in aerial operations during WWII who were awarded the Air Medal. That was a Military Award afforded to the Civil Air Patrol.
I believe there was also a provision to award members the Air Force Marksman ribbon to CAP members at one time in the past as well.
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 01, 2017, 02:04:59 AM
If you earned the AFOEA while a CAP member, you only have to worry about getting proof of it, not whether it is allowed wear on the CAP uniform. You should not ask CAP personnel on wearing it on your CG Aux uniform. You should ask CG Aux chain of command that since you earned the award while a member of CAP you want to wear it on the CG Aux uniform. Not Susie Parker since she is not in your chain anymore.
It should not matter what is the CAP policy. CAP is CAP, and CG Aux is CG Aux.
Do not base your decisions on what the CAP does, did, or will do.
I believe I understand where you are coming from.
However, I view this sequentially:
- For my authorisation to wear it at all, it would have to be authorised by the Air Force for CAP to wear it, since I would have earned it as a CAP member.
- If/when CAP is authorised to wear it, then I need to check the AUXMAN to find out if it is wearable under Coast Guard regulations.
- Failing a clear, unambiguous answer from the AUXMAN, which is usually clearer than CAPM 39-1 on such things, then I would ask my Flotilla Commander (who I would ask anyway, just as a courtesy/CYA gesture). Example: I cannot wear CAP ribbons on the CGAUX uniform. However, I was an Observer in CAP, and I still need to clarify whether or not I could wear my Observer wings on the CGAUX uniform, since the regulations only state that CAP ribbons cannot be worn; I have not yet found anything about aviation badges or other earned skills badges.
- Lastly, I do not believe Susie Parker is in anyone in CAP's chain of command; to the best of my knowledge she is an employee of the CAP Corporate structure.
But, as I said, I think I get where you are coming from.
Quote from: SARDOC on May 01, 2017, 06:56:11 PM
Just as a historical note, there were those "Belligerents" who participated in aerial operations during WWII who were awarded the Air Medal. That was a Military Award afforded to the Civil Air Patrol.
You are, of course, correct. I thought about it after logging off. Mea culpa.
Quote from: cnitas on May 01, 2017, 07:35:31 PM
I believe there was also a provision to award members the Air Force Marksman ribbon to CAP members at one time in the past as well.
I remember seeing one person in Indiana Wing wearing one. He told me that he earned it at the KYANG base in Louisville, and that the Base Commander (I think) signed off on him being able to wear it. Of course that was about 15 years ago and I don't remember the specifics.
Remember, always KISS. Start with your CURRENT COC. Did not work? Then expand. Go first to the CG Aux. They say no? Then go back to CAP.
Quote from: cnitas on May 01, 2017, 07:35:31 PM
I believe there was also a provision to award members the Air Force Marksman ribbon to CAP members at one time in the past as well.
I wouldn't call it a common occurrence, but it was certainly a not unusual thing to see in the mid 60's to mid 70's. I got one and even wire it maybe a half dozen times. But then I thought about it and realized that in the USAF world it was a very minor ribbon, but had to be worn above all CAP ribbons - and I had a LOT of CAP ribbons that were harder to get, meant more to me and were more prestigious in CAP circles, so I tossed it.
Even if Big Blue gets around to authorizing the ribbon for individual members, a large percentage will not be allowed to wear it without a change to the 39-1--which currently bars wear of military ribbons on corporate uniforms.
A "large percentage" wearing corporate uniforms. I see what you did there!