Apparently a National Commander (and Senior NCO advisor) letter dated 2/14/11 has been sent to all Region & Wing Commanders regarding the conduct of a few "misguided" senior members running around demanding to be saluted by AF and other Military personnel.
There was a comment posted on the AF Magazine on line forum in January regarding a CAP senior member Major being disrespectful to a AF active duty enlisted person and demanding a salute.
Hmm, it's unfortunate these "wanna bees" (and as a Major the individual has been a wanna for a long time) continue to crop up whether it's on AF bases or out in the civilian community getting "discounted meals" or praise NOT deserved and not correcting the general public. Lets hope there's not too many more of these incidents, with even one being too many. >:( :( :-[
I'd assume that both region & wing commanders will have the opportunity to add their comments to the letter.
RM
Where is this letter, and how did you see it?
I would love to see this. I'm sure that if it truly made it to all Wing CC's then I will hear about it on Satruday.
-Paramedic
Easy fix - 2b the offenders and move on. There is no need for further reenforcement of regulations we are all aware of, especially field grade CAP officers.
This is an anomaly, not the norm.
If this story is true, then NHQ is over re-acting........like said above, 2 B and move on.
Quote from: NCRblues on February 15, 2011, 03:02:12 AM
Where is this letter, and how did you see it?
Members subscribed to the CAPCOM list server were provided a copy by the National CAP Communications Team Leader, who stated that the National Commander wanted the widest distribution. Terrible letter to have to write, due to a very foolish action by a senior member.
RM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 15, 2011, 03:02:12 AM
Where is this letter, and how did you see it?
Received today from our Wing CC.
Reprint of letter:
Quote from: Letter From National CC14 February 2011
Wing and Region Commanders
We've all heard the stories concerning Civil Air Patrol (CAP) officers on military installations "demanding" that they receive the rendering of a military salute from junior ranking officers and enlisted military members. We make jokes concerning the intelligence or – lack of intelligence – of the offending member and we express how this type of behavior is an embarrassment to all – both CAP members and military members. We would like to believe that this is a rare occurrence. So why is there anecdotal evidence that these "encounters" continue? Are these occurrences caused by a lack of knowledge or are they deliberate acts designed to assuage personal "issues/motivations" of the offending member?
A recent occurrence is discussed in the 17 January 2011 issue of Air Force magazine Online Forums section - between an enlisted military member and a CAP senior member officer. To paraphrase the CAP officer said, "Do you see this oak leaf? I am a major with the Air Force Auxiliary. You need to salute me..." The Military member did not render a salute. Our concern is not the response of the military member, however. He was aware of CAP's relationship to the Air Force and declined to render the salute – which is a courtesy and is not a regulatory requirement. In accordance with Air Force Instruction 10-2701 Organization and Function of the Civil Air Patrol, "CAP uses a military style grade structure for both its Senior Members and Cadet Members. CAP grades for both cadet and senior members have no military standing, carry no authority over members of the Armed Forces, nor warrant the customs and courtesies afforded military members." This should be common knowledge to all CAP members. However, as members of the Civil Air Patrol, we are deeply concerned about the behavior of one of our officers.
CAP is a federally chartered non-profit organization of civilian volunteers. Yes, we are the Air Force's Auxiliary but as civilian volunteers we are not members of the military. CAP Regulation 35-10, Ethics Policy states – "Our nation expects and deserves a high standard of professional conduct. The American public entrusts CAP with their safety and welfare and with the character development of their children. Our official core values are: Integrity, Volunteerism, Excellence and Respect. These values represent a cultural commitment within CAP to practice basic honesty, to give of one's self for the betterment of humanity, to deliver top quality services, and to treat others fairly."
CAP promotes teamwork and high standards of personal conduct by granting cadets and senior members the privilege of wearing an Air Force-style uniform. It bears repeating – the privilege. The uniform and the related traditions of rendering military customs and courtesies distinguish our cadets from ordinary youth and identify our members with the United States Air Force. Our cadets are taught not only the proper wear of the uniform but also the proper rendering of the salute to our members, and as a courtesy, to military members in uniform. Have we "dropped" the ball with our senior members?
OFFICE OF THE NATIONAL COMMANDER
CIVIL AIR PATROL
UNITED STATES AIR FORCE AUXILIARY
MAXWELL AIR FORCE BASE, ALABAMA 36112-6332
This brings us back to the actions of the CAP major who requested a salute from a military member. The rank of major implies that this individual is not "new" to the CAP program. Yes, you can receive a special or professional appointment to the grade of CAP major based on experience or unique skills, but normally when you see an individual in CAP wearing oak leaf clusters that implies this person has been "around" a while and should be very familiar with the CAP rank structure and the military rank structure. So was the "request" for a salute by the CAP member from a military member an honest mistake based on a lack of knowledge or a deliberate act of a personal nature? Only the individual involved can provide the answer to this question.
We can't know the heart of the individual involved in this particular situation, nor can we totally control and insure individual compliance with governing directives that address professional and ethical behavior of our members and the customs and courtesies of the military hand salute. However, we can insure that this mistake is not repeated because of a lack of knowledge. CAP members must behave honestly and ethically at all times and with all people. "Individuals will not take unfair advantage of anyone through manipulation, intimidation, concealment, abuse of privileged information, misrepresentation of material facts or any other unfair practice." (CAP's Ethical Standards).
This article is not intended to be overly critical or harsh but to convey very clearly that the behavior of this senior member is not acceptable. The challenge is for all of us, cadets and senior members, to continue to exhibit the highest standards of professional and personal conduct at all times. CAP has a distinguished history of excellence. By nature, the public has a short memory. We cannot allow our hard-earned professional image to be tainted by the conduct of a few members behaving badly. Incorrect behavior must be addressed at all times by every member – with proper respect. We are the Civil Air Patrol! Let's conduct ourselves accordingly!
Sincerely
AMY S. COURTER LOU E. WALPUS
Major General, CAP Chief Master Sergeant, CAP
National Commander Command Chief[
Can you put a link to it then, if they want wide distribution...
I would hope that they post it to the members page or in e-services tomorrow or wednesday.
-Paramedic
Quote from: NCRblues on February 15, 2011, 03:26:50 AM
Can you put a link to it then, if they want wide distribution...
Region CC's directions were to pass along to all members. When link is available, reprint can be removed.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on February 15, 2011, 03:23:56 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 15, 2011, 03:02:12 AM
Where is this letter, and how did you see it?
Members subscribed to the CAPCOM list server were provided a copy by the National CAP Communications Team Leader, who stated that the National Commander wanted the widest distribution. Terrible letter to have to write, due to a very foolish action by a senior member.
RM
I am on the list and just checked my email. Nothing there.
Wait, wait, wait.....They wrote this letter based on a post in an online forum with none of the actual involved parties identified and without attribution? BS meter pegging.....I would say the chances of this being a complete fabrication are very high. Possibly a disgruntled former CAP person planting a little creative disinformation. We have seen that before, haven't we?
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on February 15, 2011, 03:37:29 AM
Wait, wait, wait.....They wrote this letter based on a post in an online forum with none of the actual involved parties identified and without attribution? BS meter pegging.....I would say the chances of this being a complete fabrication are very high. Possibly a disgruntled former CAP person planting a little creative disinformation. We have seen that before, haven't we?
Major Lord
Could it be a fabricated story? Sure. However, do you
really find it implausible? Sadly, I don't.
This letter went out today from the Texas Wing Commander...it is real. Be the story real or not, the issue is still a problem needing addressing.
In my experience, when we are saluted in our area we are humbled and even a little embarrassed (as in the sense that it was unexpected and that we feel that the salute, a gesture of extreme respect, is something worth humbling one's self to). My advice has been to return the salute sharply (a return of respect) and thank them for their service to our nation. There is able a CAP "teachable" moment there where the CAP can be properly represented.
Trolling for salutes is a horrid practice.
"Have we "dropped" the ball with our senior members?"
Kind of off, coming for the national commander.... but i will believe it...for now
EDIT: i meant to say ODD...not off...so...ya, sorry about that.
Quote from: NCRblues on February 15, 2011, 03:45:23 AM
"Have we “dropped” the ball with our senior members?"
Kind of off, coming for the national commander.... but i will believe it...for now
There is some truth to that. If we are funneling people through Level I and allowing a disrespectful practice like that to continue...then we have been lacking.
How many of our units merely pass new members though the system as a "passing annoyance?" Or sort of blow off Level I as some sort of minor activity?
Sparky,
Yes, I understand the Letter from Gen Courter is real. It certainly makes a difference if the response to the letter is an answer to false allegations.
"We have all heard the stories of CAP Commanders molesting Cadets" Followed by an anonymous post on an online forum stating that " I saw a CAP member molest a CAP cadet" and then responded to by National with a policy letter prohibiting molestation of Cadets? Too much. The very fact that its possible to believe based on years of anecdotes suggests that it would be an excellent chance to post artful disinformation. How many CAP members do you have direct and personal knowledge of that have done such a thing? You of course filed an IG complaint, right? This has all the hallmarks of classic institutional over-reaction.
Major Lord
Salute me or die enlisted scum!
Sigh..
So, now- what? Does CAP also mean "Complete Another Policy" as a reaction to something someone read, if thats the case, hang on to your hard drives, folks. They're not gonna know what hit 'em. We'll have to confer with a search engine just to get a CAP related answer on anything.
The Nanny State is Here.
BS METER IS RUNNING HIGH RIGHT NOW!!!!! On line forum , give me a break. I like facts not fiction.
As if I should have added, too, I just can't believe that this would rate a letter written all the way from the top on the subject. Talk about a level that should not even have to worry about that kind of pettiness.
Awwww, this stuff is Basic Level 1 information. But then again, I remember a former national commander riding around Maxwell in his "command vehicle" equipped with a two star plate placed on the front.
Anything's possible these days (sheeesh) ::)
Guys, the "incident" in question was reported on the AF Times.com site, in the forum section.
It's had many, many visitors and a whole bunch of comments.
The vast majority did not speak well of CAP.
I have often "surfed" other forums and read what they had to say about us, pot shots taken, photos taken out of context and all sorts of other stuff. I've also seen CAP personnel go on there and try to "defend the faith" against Soldiers, Sailors, Sailors and Airmen who all play the "active duty" card.
All of these people are usually anonymous and it gets pretty nasty until some active duty/retired fellow with their name on their post and some clout points out the "apples and oranges" axiom and shut it down.
Air Force Times.............for the record is not endorsed by the USAF and is a private(non goverment) publication. I can make up stories all day and post them on the net, just saying ::)
Yes, this is a crazy occurrence that requires a letter from the highest members of our volunteer organization. It makes the entire organization look badly because of this internet thread.
Because nobody has ever posted a thread recounting/alleging an Air Force airman has done something less than favorable. If there ever were such a thread, I would fully expect a public letter to the entire Air Force from the CSAF explaining that an Airman -- possibly even maybe an NCO -- one day, maybe did something wrong (though nobody can confirm it) but the story was once told on an internet forum. Therefore, if an internet thread talked about a supposed occurrence, it must be a rampant problem throughout the Air Force and worthy of addressing by the CSAF. Glad CAP also follows suit with common Air Force practice. Oh wait...
I hope those grousing about the letter don't endorse CAP members trolling for salutes from our active service colleagues. I took the letter as a reminder that CAP members don't do that sort of thing and our regulations expressly prohibit it. So, what's the problem?
Quote from: PHall on February 15, 2011, 04:06:35 AM
Guys, the "incident" in question was reported on the AF Times.com site, in the forum section.
It's had many, many visitors and a whole bunch of comments.
The vast majority did not speak well of CAP.
An excellent example of a logical fallacy:
Argumentum ad populum a bunch of guys on a bulletin board don't like CAP. This many anonymous people can't possibly be wrong, can they? Now I would be the last one to deny that CAP has a lot of members who should be medicated before being allowed to leave the house, but a dogpile in a chatroom proves nothing other than the ill will of the posters, who are by nature self-selecting.
Major Lord
Here you go................
"Have you ever had a CAP Major demand you salute them?
This just happened to me today. Usually I'm fine with these CAP officers and I do salute them sometimes out of respect but I didn't really notice her as I walked by. She stops me and says "Do you see this oak leaf? I am a major with the Air Force Auxiliary. You need to salute me". She had a real pissy attitude when she said this to me. I told her politely that she is till a civilian and I don't have to salute her. She responded back "I am still with the Air Force which means you salute me." I pointed to my stripes and told her that this is a real rank and then pointed to her oak leaf and told her that it doesn't mean [mess] and she is still a civilian. She started to cuss me out and then I just walked away. This woman was a real [censored]. Maybe she was just having a bad day or maybe she thinks she really does outrank me. I don't know. Has this ever happened to you?"
Oh cripesallbloodymighty... :-[
This makes me want to crawl into the nearest crack in the runway of the nearest Air Force installation...
We have been pounding this into members' heads since the early '90s. I had it so inculcated into me during Level I, SLS and CLC in 1993-94 that I almost reflexively want to tell military members who do salute me, "NO YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THAT!"
If this happened the way the story states, the Major in question is not someone I want to be in the same organisation with.
For any Air Force personnel who may be reading this, I am truly sorry and embarrassed for CAP.
Don't be surprised if significant uniform changes come as a result of this...meaning: AF uniform only for cadets, grey/whites for the rest of us to "snap us back in line."
Quote from: eaker.cadet on February 15, 2011, 04:26:20 AM
Here you go................
"Have you ever had a CAP Major demand you salute them?
This just happened to me today. Usually I'm fine with these CAP officers and I do salute them sometimes out of respect but I didn't really notice her as I walked by. She stops me and says "Do you see this oak leaf? I am a major with the Air Force Auxiliary. You need to salute me". She had a real pissy attitude when she said this to me. I told her politely that she is till a civilian and I don't have to salute her. She responded back "I am still with the Air Force which means you salute me." I pointed to my stripes and told her that this is a real rank and then pointed to her oak leaf and told her that it doesn't mean [mess] and she is still a civilian. She started to cuss me out and then I just walked away. This woman was a real [censored]. Maybe she was just having a bad day or maybe she thinks she really does outrank me. I don't know. Has this ever happened to you?"
It sounds "plausible," however, I think both parties are acting "unprofessionally" based on this. That said, I also think this person is suffering from "FORUM COURAGE" and likely making is sound more "horrific" than it could have been.
Are USAF enlisted personnel expected to cuss out civilian women? Use passable grammar?
In any case, the above is hearsay to some degree. I think I would be pretty put out of someone insulted my CAP rank telling me it "don't mean [suspect our filter at work]? I know I was when I was called out as a teacher as somehow being "less than valuable."
I don't think I would have replied to that or even have pointed out my rank in the manner the Major in question did.
If the above did happen, shame on all of them.
1. Was this officially reported by the Airman via his shop supervisor, first shirt
2. Is this fiction? ,who knows?
Lets move on and call it a day, be professional and respectfull towards all.....botton line!!!!!!!!
Quote from: eaker.cadet on February 15, 2011, 04:41:29 AM
1. Was this officially reported by the Airman via his shop supervisor, first shirt
2. Is this fiction? ,who knows?
Lets move on and call it a day, be professional and respectfull towards all.....botton line!!!!!!!!
I doubt this happened. Most Airman (read 18-20 year olds with a temper still) cant walk away from a situation like that, and then Security Forces gets called in.
I really really don't think this happend....or IF it did it, was no where near the level he claims....
If it was at the BX or clothing sales, there are WAY to many officers, SNCO's, and even squadron commanders in and out ALL day long...
This is overblown on all ends...the airmans AND Cap's as well.....
In 2005 my HGA flight got invited to the evening parade at Bolling AFB. I was a 1st Lt at the time and wearing the Grey/White combo with blazer. a AF SSgt saluted me and I returned it however this is not something that I expected.
Yes it was a nice courtesy but not something I would ever demand from a Active Duty member.
However I do know a retired Navy LtCdr who is a CAP Lt Col who has no issues with demanding a salute from the AD type
Quote from: FLCAP 320 on February 15, 2011, 04:58:00 AM
In 2005 my HGA flight got invited to the evening parade at Bolling AFB. I was a 1st Lt at the time and wearing the Grey/White combo with blazer. a AF SSgt saluted me and I returned it however this is not something that I expected.
Yes it was a nice courtesy but not something I would ever demand from a Active Duty member.
However I do know a retired Navy LtCdr who is a CAP Lt Col who has no issues with demanding a salute from the AD type
Interesting? Suppose a CAP Officer is also a USAF officer...like General Anderson had been Colonel when he was serving in the USAF prior to retirement and term as a Virginia State Delegate? A gray area, however, back to the point...
I never expect to be saluted, but am keen to return a salute rendered smartly and sharply as a token of respect.
The issue of whether or not CAP members are entitled to render or return military salutes is well settled. We are. Let me quote from the letter: "These values represent a cultural commitment within CAP to practice basic honesty, to give of one's self for the betterment of humanity, to deliver top quality services, and to treat others fairly." I don't belive the letter reflects those values.
I think that General Courter has used this pernicious gossip to engage in a little reflexive CAP-Bashing. She might wish to review the "integrity" part of our Corporate values. Next I suppose that we will get a policy letter about Major Hassan with a warning not to commit murder on military bases, as it would look bad for CAP.....and we have all heard that one in every 1500 Spaatz cadets are murderers! It does not matter if its true or not, its the "seriousness of the charge" .
Major Lord
I only got through part of her letter before blood was shooting from my eyes and I was repeatedly beating my skull with my keyboard.
Whether or not the story in AF Times is fiction or not, I know as I've seen enough Walter Mitty types in this .org to believe it, from both prior service AND from those who've never served. They're usually best recognized as those who only show up at local meetings and are about worthless in any actual position in the unit and couldn't trust them to roll out on an ES mission without getting arrested.
I say just take the National Commander's letter and give it its due regard then move on with the mission. If you were the major then shame on you, if you aren't then take it as a reminder and get back out there.
I agree that this story as printed in the AF times is over blown, is it possible it happened? sure it is, we have all seen it. Part of our problem in CAP is our almost complete lack of recurrent training on such basic behaviors and absolutely no standards for becoming a CAP officer.
But sadly, higher standards, even AF standards wouldn't fix this problem, it simply goes straight to the core values of a person. It would be nice if we could have a true fire way of only accepting those for membership who hold the highest core values and maturity but sadly no such tests exists.
Quote from: FLCAP 320 on February 15, 2011, 04:58:00 AM
However I do know a retired Navy LtCdr who is a CAP Lt Col who has no issues with demanding a salute from the AD type
Once the CAP uniform is on that is the uniform that counts. He can require a salute all he wants if the Navy reactivates him, but as long as he's in a CAP uniform he needs to respect
them.
It's always a good idea to be the more gracious. Whether you are deserved a salute or not, getting nasty or demanding about it isn't the way to deal with it. If a cadet doesn't salute me, rather than dress them down I refer it to their sergeant for further training. If there is a problem with authority then flaunting my authority is not going to help the situation - there may be other issues at play.
This type of situation is a clear example of how social media can and will have an impact on CAP. This is true whether the story is 100% true or 5% true. The stories and information are out there. The CAP member in question is 100% wrong in either case but that does not matter, the presumption of guilt is here and so is the story.
This is not a situation to be toyed with. We had a similar incident in GAWG 7 years ago and it SEVERLY DESTROYED the local CAP / USAF relationhip. It also amazes me that people admonish the letter as a way to "clear the air" or "bash" CAP members as a whole from Gen Courter.
It makes me wonder where the inside conspiracy is; Did someone type the letter in reverse and find a hidden message or did it have an Ottendorf Cipher in the text?
Quote from: eaker.cadet on February 15, 2011, 04:00:24 AM
BS METER IS RUNNING HIGH RIGHT NOW!!!!! On line forum , give me a break. I like facts not fiction.
Yeah, cuz you know everything you read in some online forum posted by someone anonymously is always fiction, right?
Kinda like the anon trolls right here on this online forum.
I really don't get why some people are complaining about the letter. I mean, it doesn't make sense at all.
Are people actually griping because the National Commander sent out a LETTER, because it was based on an incident reported on an online forum?
For real?
If the incident in question was known never to happen outside of the single accusation, I could under your reactions. If the CC had responded with mandatory training, or new regulations, I could understand such reactions.
But people have their panties in a bunch because a letter was sent to wing commanders advising them that these types of issues take place so they can keep an eye on it, and you think this is somehow bad for CAP, and that the commander is committing an integrity violaion?
Grow up. If you aren't someone mentioned in the letter, then you trying to be offended about this makes you look either confused, or guilty of the accusations. Go find something else to be outraged about. This letter doesn't have enough bite to call the National Commander someone who is against CAP.
Is there a perceived problem with members trolling for salutes? Yes. Accurate or not, it does present an opportunity to address the perception. Is the letter an overreaction? Yes. A simple reminder about appropriate customs and courtesies would have been adequate. The play by play account was unnecessary IMHO.
Salute trolling, while shameful, isn't a breach of national security. Nor is it unique to CAP. I can tell you from personal experience that Hell hath no fury like an Admiral's wife who didn't receive a salute from a civilian gate guard. (Apparently the guard (not me BTW, but all of us got the chewing out) didn't feel the tremors in the Force when she drove on base in a new car with no windshield sticker.) All such incidents are held in disdain, whether the involved persons are CAP members, USCG Aux, Sea Cadets, etc. Although embarrassing, these relatively isolated incidents don't call for the wholesale bashing of entire organizations.
As someone said earlier, provide counseling or membership action as appropriate and move on.
Quote from: caphistorian on February 15, 2011, 11:25:04 AMIt makes me wonder where the inside conspiracy is; Did someone type the letter in reverse and find a hidden message or did it have an Ottendorf Cipher in the text?
It's a vigenere cipher actually, use a standard table and the key "WELOVESAFETY" >:D.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on February 15, 2011, 01:50:08 PM
It's a vigenere cipher actually, use a standard table and the key "WELOVESAFETY" >:D.
As a former Cryptologist that makes me bust a gut...
;D :clap: :D :clap: ;D :clap: ;D :clap: ;D :clap:
Quote from: wuzafuzz on February 15, 2011, 12:48:42 PM
As someone said earlier, provide counseling or membership action as appropriate and move on.
That's the problem with anonymous internet posts...difficult to provide guided counselling and membership action when the maroon is not identified. I suppose, based on the quote above, they could demand remedial training for all female Majors, but that's as precise as the identification seems to be.
Quote from: caphistorian on February 15, 2011, 01:54:27 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on February 15, 2011, 01:50:08 PM
It's a vigenere cipher actually, use a standard table and the key "WELOVESAFETY" >:D.
As a former Cryptologist that makes me bust a gut...
;D :clap: :D :clap: ;D :clap: ;D :clap: ;D :clap:
Just keep your guts on your side of the forum ;D.
I will be briefing my squadron next week. If this is true I'm disappointed that a CAP Member would do such a thing but I will say that I feel "Level 1" does nothing to train CAP Members to wear the uniform and act appropriately to military standards. I mean really take a few tests and a couple death by power points and congrats your now eligible to be a CAP 2nd Lt? The big thing I tell all new and old members in my unit is that we set the example. Even when we think were not being watched someone is. A new member wanting to fit in while act as they see others acting, plain and simple.
Level 1 is only as good as the squadron makes it. How many times have we heard that Level 1 is an on-line course?
Foundations introduces the idea of wearing uniforms and customs/courtesies. It's important that the person presenting the material does a proper job, and makes sure the new member really understands what is acceptable and what isn't.
I think it is self-evident that the type of personality who would wave his CAP Major leaves over a member of the real military is not a person who suffers from a lack of training, but from fundamental deficits of character. Certainly there are occasional misunderstandings, but the kind of problem of described in the letter is something that is best addressed in membership committees, not policy letters, with sound fundamental practices thoroughly discussed in Level 1 or subsequent training.
My gripe with the letter is that the so-called evidence is totally anecdotal, with no support that the incident actually occurred. You are of course free to believe that this is just the kind of thing that a typical CAP Officer would do, but I think we owe it to our fellow members to act on reason, evidence, and sound principals. Just like the initial reaction of members in this thread:" 2B the sun of a biscuit and move on" is an inappropriate and hasty reaction that did not arise with the benefit of looking at the actual facts of the case, just an inference based on prejudice. If the alleged Officer in the Forum had just "trolled for salutes" ( walking on a military base in uniform where you are likely to have a member of the military decide WTF you are in a split second and make the salute/no salute decision) that is one thing. Its also difficult to distinguish from a CAP Officer walking on a military base in the ordinary course of his duties.
The allegation was that a member of our organization accosted a member of of the military in a manner that was highly inappropriate. If this is true, then naturally the National Command instituted an investigation to determine the facts, right? Certainly you could just e-mail the complainant on the board and ask for the time, place, and description of the alleged Major. No, instead it appears that they reflexively over-reacted in an attempt to do damage control where none was necessary, and ended up looking silly and overly emotional in the process. Now, if on the other hand, they conducted a thorough investigation and determined the veracity of the allegations, I will stand corrected.
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on February 15, 2011, 03:47:00 PM
I think it is self-evident that the type of personality who would wave his CAP Major leaves over a member of the real military is not a person who suffers from a lack of training, but from fundamental deficits of character. Certainly there are occasional misunderstandings, but the kind of problem of described in the letter is something that is best addressed in membership committees, not policy letters, with sound fundamental practices thoroughly discussed in Level 1 or subsequent training.
+1000
I've been on a base (ANG) only once since becoming a member of CAP...I actually went out of my way to avoid wearing a uniform that showed rank, mainly because I felt it inappropriate to have people who could be called into service of the country, seeing my "butter-bars" and thinking they owed me a salute in any way.
Quote from: JeffDG on February 15, 2011, 04:00:02 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on February 15, 2011, 03:47:00 PM
I think it is that the type of personality who would wave his CAP Major leaves over a member of the real military is not a person who suffers from a lack of training, but from fundamental deficits of character. Certainly there are occasional misunderstandings, but the kind of problem of described in the letter is something that is best addressed in membership committees, not policy letters, with sound fundamental practices thoroughly discussed in Level 1 or subsequent training.
+1000
I've been on a base (ANG) only once since becoming a member of CAP...I actually went out of my way to avoid wearing a uniform that showed rank, mainly because I felt it inappropriate to have people who could be called into service of the country, seeing my "butter's" and thinking they owed me a salute in any way.
That would not be something I would do. We are CAP Officers, NCOs and Cadet wearing the uniform of our organization...the last thing we need is people being afraid or ashamed of our uniform tradition. The point is, rather, to refrain from the negative behavior posted.
With the privilege of wearing the uniform comes the responsibility that comes with it. In that light, respecting our core values and place in the USAF family/team, there is no shame in wearing your uniform.
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 15, 2011, 04:19:48 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on February 15, 2011, 04:00:02 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on February 15, 2011, 03:47:00 PM
I think it is that the type of personality who would wave his CAP Major leaves over a member of the real military is not a person who suffers from a lack of training, but from fundamental deficits of character. Certainly there are occasional misunderstandings, but the kind of problem of described in the letter is something that is best addressed in membership committees, not policy letters, with sound fundamental practices thoroughly discussed in Level 1 or subsequent training.
+1000
I've been on a base (ANG) only once since becoming a member of CAP...I actually went out of my way to avoid wearing a uniform that showed rank, mainly because I felt it inappropriate to have people who could be called into service of the country, seeing my "butter's" and thinking they owed me a salute in any way.
That would not be something I would do. We are CAP Officers, NCOs and Cadet wearing the uniform of our organization...the last thing we need is people being afraid or ashamed of our uniform tradition. The point is, rather, to refrain from the negative behavior posted.
With the privilege of wearing the uniform comes the responsibility that comes with it. In that light, respecting our core values and place in the USAF family/team, there is no shame in wearing your uniform.
Please don't get me wrong...at that point, I didn't feel I had enough information or training on C&C to be able to comport myself appropriately. Since, I've done the OBC, and it contained significant information about such items, and now I feel I could do proper credit to the uniform and would be less reticent.
The point I was trying to make was we need to show humility. If you don't understand the C&C attached to the uniform, and the Major in question clearly did not, don't wear it. When in doubt, don't expect anyone else to render any courtesy to you. When in doubt, render courtesies to all others.
Quote from: Major Lord on February 15, 2011, 03:47:00 PM
I think it is self-evident that the type of personality who would wave his CAP Major leaves over a member of the real military is not a person who suffers from a lack of training, but from fundamental deficits of character. Certainly there are occasional misunderstandings, but the kind of problem of described in the letter is something that is best addressed in membership committees, not policy letters, with sound fundamental practices thoroughly discussed in Level 1 or subsequent training.
My gripe with the letter is that the so-called evidence is totally anecdotal, with no support that the incident actually occurred. You are of course free to believe that this is just the kind of thing that a typical CAP Officer would do, but I think we owe it to our fellow members to act on reason, evidence, and sound principals. Just like the initial reaction of members in this thread:" 2B the sun of a biscuit and move on" is an inappropriate and hasty reaction that did not arise with the benefit of looking at the actual facts of the case, just an inference based on prejudice. If the alleged Officer in the Forum had just "trolled for salutes" ( walking on a military base in uniform where you are likely to have a member of the military decide WTF you are in a split second and make the salute/no salute decision) that is one thing. Its also difficult to distinguish from a CAP Officer walking on a military base in the ordinary course of his duties.
The allegation was that a member of our organization accosted a member of of the military in a manner that was highly inappropriate. If this is true, then naturally the National Command instituted an investigation to determine the facts, right? Certainly you could just e-mail the complainant on the board and ask for the time, place, and description of the alleged Major. No, instead it appears that they reflexively over-reacted in an attempt to do damage control where none was necessary, and ended up looking silly and overly emotional in the process. Now, if on the other hand, they conducted a thorough investigation and determined the veracity of the allegations, I will stand corrected.
Major Lord
There seem to be a number of potential assumptions on both sides of the argument. You assume that no investigation was done or that they don't know who the offender was. What facts do you have to support your argument? It's possible they identified the offender and have taken action. We don't know. Assumptions either way are problematic.
Was a letter needed? I don't know. Could the message have been worded or delivered differently? Perhaps. Regardless, the fact is that the letter was delivered and, right or wrong, I'll simply take it as a face value as a reminder to reinforce customs and courtesies - I'd hazard a guess that we all know someone that could use the reminder.
One of my favorite reasons for wearing a Corporate Uniform and not an Air Force one. I can salute anyone I want to. ;)
^ This is not at all the issue being discussed.
Quote from: A.Member on February 15, 2011, 04:26:22 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on February 15, 2011, 03:47:00 PM
I think it is self-evident that the type of personality who would wave his CAP Major leaves over a member of the real military is not a person who suffers from a lack of training, but from fundamental deficits of character. Certainly there are occasional misunderstandings, but the kind of problem of described in the letter is something that is best addressed in membership committees, not policy letters, with sound fundamental practices thoroughly discussed in Level 1 or subsequent training.
My gripe with the letter is that the so-called evidence is totally anecdotal, with no support that the incident actually occurred. You are of course free to believe that this is just the kind of thing that a typical CAP Officer would do, but I think we owe it to our fellow members to act on reason, evidence, and sound principals. Just like the initial reaction of members in this thread:" 2B the sun of a biscuit and move on" is an inappropriate and hasty reaction that did not arise with the benefit of looking at the actual facts of the case, just an inference based on prejudice. If the alleged Officer in the Forum had just "trolled for salutes" ( walking on a military base in uniform where you are likely to have a member of the military decide WTF you are in a split second and make the salute/no salute decision) that is one thing. Its also difficult to distinguish from a CAP Officer walking on a military base in the ordinary course of his duties.
The allegation was that a member of our organization accosted a member of of the military in a manner that was highly inappropriate. If this is true, then naturally the National Command instituted an investigation to determine the facts, right? Certainly you could just e-mail the complainant on the board and ask for the time, place, and description of the alleged Major. No, instead it appears that they reflexively over-reacted in an attempt to do damage control where none was necessary, and ended up looking silly and overly emotional in the process. Now, if on the other hand, they conducted a thorough investigation and determined the veracity of the allegations, I will stand corrected.
Major Lord
There seem to be a number of potential assumptions on both sides of the argument. You assume that no investigation was done or that they don't know who the offender was. What facts do you have to support your argument? It's possible they identified the offender and have taken action. We don't know. Assumptions either way are problematic.
Was a letter needed? I don't know. Could the message have been worded or delivered differently? Perhaps. Regardless, the fact is that the letter was delivered and, right or wrong, I'll simply take it as a face value as a reminder to reinforce customs and courtesies - I'd hazard a guess that we all know someone that could use the reminder.
The first paragraph of the letter clearly states that this is driven by anecdotal evidence. If otherwise, why would they qualify the source of the allegation?
Major Lord
Even if the forum post was faked, it obviously represents situations that do happen now and again.
Perhaps a reminder about the importance of C&C is a good thing even if the incident that prompted it may or may not be accurate.
Unfortunately it takes one bad apple to ruin the whole bunch. CAP in my opinion is filled with outstanding people who would not do such a thing. However doesn't mean a few bad apples exist. They exist in many organizations, including the Air Force. While I have not read the other forum, I can guarantee you the vast majority of the posts derogatory to CAP are misinformed posts of ALL of us being a group of wannabes this and that.
A little detective work would not take long to figure out who it might be:
-Female
-CAP Major
-On AF installation
Just identify, what State or Base and a little detective work, it won't take long to identify the person and find out their version of events.
We are only hearing one side, which could be real or completely made up.
Real or not real, no doubt bad apples exist out there, however the organization as a whole I believe is not like those bad apples.
Not to mention there are people out there who have nothing but bad things or only write about the bad aspects of CAP.
This is not the first instance of someone trolling for a salute and unfortunately will not be the last. It was proper for the National Commander to address the issue as while this involved one individual on a base, the posting of it on a website associated with the Air Force and there by reflecting on all of CAP.
Let's simply remind ourselves and fellow members that such behavior will not be tolerated.
Quote from: Kojack on February 15, 2011, 04:47:41 PM
One of my favorite reasons for wearing a Corporate Uniform and not an Air Force one. I can salute anyone I want to. ;)
I hope you're being sarcastic, because it is not true per regs.
The regs state we are to salute any and all commissioned and warrant officers of the Armed Forces senior in rank to us. That means Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine, Coast Guard, Active, Reserve, Guard and State Defence Forces (?). I would also include the NOAA Commissioned Corps and U.S. Public Health Service, because they are uniformed services and look virtually indistinguishable from the Navy unless you're close enough to see their cap devices, nameplates, etc. Also, since the USPHS provides medical services to the Coast Guard, when they're doing that they wear CG uniforms with USPHS insignia. I don't want to be gigged for not saluting a (for example) three-ring O-5 Commander because s/he
might be NOAA or USPHS.
We also salute all officers of allied (NATO, British Commonwealth) nations. When I was a first looie I was working at an airshow and there was a Canadian Captain displaying a T-33 (which they still flew). I passed him, saw the two gold bands on his shoulder boards and snapped him a salute. He looked a little surprised but returned it.
Like the saying goes, it is never inappropriate to salute. A former squadron CC (then a CAP Major) told me that when he was at Maxwell for Air War College (I think) he said, "I saw Germans, Australians, Canadians, French, Dutch, British...I sure don't know what all their insignia were but I saluted them...I may have been saluting Corporals and Sergeants but it's not inappropriate."
Quote from: JeffDG on February 15, 2011, 02:13:09 PM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on February 15, 2011, 12:48:42 PM
As someone said earlier, provide counseling or membership action as appropriate and move on.
That's the problem with anonymous internet posts...difficult to provide guided counselling and membership action when the maroon is not identified. I suppose, based on the quote above, they could demand remedial training for all female Majors, but that's as precise as the identification seems to be.
It's understood some wascawwy viowaters won't be identified. (Sorry to channel Elmer Fudd there. ;) )Simply take care of the ones who are caught (identified) and the example made of them would help reduce future incidents. Beef up Level 1 as well. Sure, there will be some fish that got away, but we will have taken reasonable efforts to keep our noses clean.
Edited: I should add that any membership action would first require a careful investigation of the facts. No frontier justice mindset.
Quote from: Major Lord on February 15, 2011, 03:47:00 PM
The allegation was that a member of our organization accosted a member of of the military in a manner that was highly inappropriate. If this is true, then naturally the National Command instituted an investigation to determine the facts, right? Certainly you could just e-mail the complainant on the board and ask for the time, place, and description of the alleged Major. No, instead it appears that they reflexively over-reacted in an attempt to do damage control where none was necessary, and ended up looking silly and overly emotional in the process. Now, if on the other hand, they conducted a thorough investigation and determined the veracity of the allegations, I will stand corrected.
How much you want to bet that following that item being posted in that forum, MG Courter and/or the CAP-USAF commander eventually got a phone call from a LOT higher on the food chain that probably touched this off?
"Oh, sorry, General, but I'm going to have to start an IG investigation first.."
Your MAJCOM commander doesn't give two craps whether its really true or not (after all, he read it on the Internet, it _must_ be true!), he wants to know what you're going to be doing about it. Now.
I know MG Courter pretty well. She's not going to put something like this out unless there was sufficient evidence and / or higher echelon interest to warrant it. Just because the individual sources, and the veracity of those sources, isn't specifically enumerated in the general's letter does not negate the information.
It's been a while since I heard the following story.
Heck it could've been on here! (so take credit if you told it!)
(Different variances on grades though):
A CAP Lieutenant was yelling at an Air Force Senior Airman for not saluting him.
The Senior Airman explains to the lieutenant that he is not required to salute him.
The Lieutenant starts getting angry and demands the Senior Airman to salute him.
The Senior Airman pulls out his wallet and hands the lieutenant a CAP ID Card.
The CAP ID Card showed the Air Force Senior Airman as a CAP Major.
The point: Be careful of who you try to mess with...they may be someone you don't expect!
Quote from: CyBorg on February 15, 2011, 10:08:15 PM
Quote from: Kojack on February 15, 2011, 04:47:41 PM
One of my favorite reasons for wearing a Corporate Uniform and not an Air Force one. I can salute anyone I want to. ;)
That's got to be the most selfish, self-serving and totally inappropriate responses I've heard yet.
Whether or not the CSU is not the issue. If truth were known, considering the conduct of the individual who designed that fine piece of nonsense, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there weren't incidents involving CAP members wearing that uniform because of the metal grade insignia.
Is it possible that the incident occurred and set off another CAP Talk dialog? Sure. I saw CAP's image severely damaged back about 1975 when the then IL Wing Commander did the same thing at Chanute AFB. The truth of the matter, however, given how public some blogs (just like this one) are, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the incident was just posted to generate the negative publicity that resulted. No where have we seen the specifics. No where is there any word of a formal report that obviously would have been written in such a situation. I haven't even received this letter of warning.
The thing, though, is that military officers who are so equally arrogant as the alleged CAP Major usually, at some point, experience the ire of their subordinates in one way or another.
The real lesson for all of us here is that respect has to be earned, not demanded. In a very real way, we as CAP members are perceived not that much differently than the WASPs were in World War II...Relish that fact, it builds character! Also consider that nobody's sabotaged an aircraft by putting sugar in a fuel tank (A WASP history lesson) because of the way the CAP's perceived by the Air Force rank and file.
At the 09 NSC, I was approached by a young second lieutenant about the same issue. I gave him the stock, standard answer that I was required to salute him, not the reverse. But then I gave him a history lesson, talking about the anti-sub missions, the 800+ Air Medals (including the first two ever awarded) and I added the two dozen or so who were lost during World War II....all this from volunteers. He agreed that someone serving their Country voluntarily who was at risk of going in harm's way was worthy of a degree of respect. I don't know nor do I care if it meant a salute because I frankly wasn't fishing for that. I do know that he addressed me as "sir" every time I meet him during the next week I was there.
Earn the respect. When you demand it, respect is lost forever.
Quote from: caphornbuckle on February 16, 2011, 03:01:48 AM
It's been a while since I heard the following story.
Heck it could've been on here! (so take credit if you told it!)
(Different variances on grades though):
A CAP Lieutenant was yelling at an Air Force Senior Airman for not saluting him.
The Senior Airman explains to the lieutenant that he is not required to salute him.
The Lieutenant starts getting angry and demands the Senior Airman to salute him.
The Senior Airman pulls out his wallet and hands the lieutenant a CAP ID Card.
The CAP ID Card showed the Air Force Senior Airman as a CAP Major.
The point: Be careful of who you try to mess with...they may be someone you don't expect!
Aha, that would be embarassing.
Quote from: caphornbuckle on February 16, 2011, 03:01:48 AM
It's been a while since I heard the following story.
Heck it could've been on here! (so take credit if you told it!)
(Different variances on grades though):
A CAP Lieutenant was yelling at an Air Force Senior Airman for not saluting him.
The Senior Airman explains to the lieutenant that he is not required to salute him.
The Lieutenant starts getting angry and demands the Senior Airman to salute him.
The Senior Airman pulls out his wallet and hands the lieutenant a CAP ID Card.
The CAP ID Card showed the Air Force Senior Airman as a CAP Major.
The point: Be careful of who you try to mess with...they may be someone you don't expect!
Or as kids these days would say... PWN3D! ;D
Quote from: HGjunkie on February 16, 2011, 03:20:19 AM
Quote from: caphornbuckle on February 16, 2011, 03:01:48 AM
It's been a while since I heard the following story.
Heck it could've been on here! (so take credit if you told it!)
(Different variances on grades though):
A CAP Lieutenant was yelling at an Air Force Senior Airman for not saluting him.
The Senior Airman explains to the lieutenant that he is not required to salute him.
The Lieutenant starts getting angry and demands the Senior Airman to salute him.
The Senior Airman pulls out his wallet and hands the lieutenant a CAP ID Card.
The CAP ID Card showed the Air Force Senior Airman as a CAP Major.
The point: Be careful of who you try to mess with...they may be someone you don't expect!
Aha, that would be embarrassing.
^I'll Say! Serves him right. We're civilians, they give their lives every day to protect this great nation and it's people. IMO, it's Kind of a no-brainer.
Quote from: GTCommando on February 16, 2011, 05:19:26 AM
Quote from: HGjunkie on February 16, 2011, 03:20:19 AM
Quote from: caphornbuckle on February 16, 2011, 03:01:48 AM
It's been a while since I heard the following story.
Heck it could've been on here! (so take credit if you told it!)
(Different variances on grades though):
A CAP Lieutenant was yelling at an Air Force Senior Airman for not saluting him.
The Senior Airman explains to the lieutenant that he is not required to salute him.
The Lieutenant starts getting angry and demands the Senior Airman to salute him.
The Senior Airman pulls out his wallet and hands the lieutenant a CAP ID Card.
The CAP ID Card showed the Air Force Senior Airman as a CAP Major.
The point: Be careful of who you try to mess with...they may be someone you don't expect!
Aha, that would be embarrassing.
^I'll Say! Serves him right. We're civilians, they give their lives every day to protect this great nation and it's people. IMO, it's Kind of a no-brainer.
I'm not sure that would have stopped the conversation. Most trolls would say, "But you aren't wearing your rank, and I am." :)
Quote from: caphornbuckle on February 16, 2011, 03:01:48 AM
It's been a while since I heard the following story.
Heck it could've been on here! (so take credit if you told it!)
(Different variances on grades though):
A CAP Lieutenant was yelling at an Air Force Senior Airman for not saluting him.
The Senior Airman explains to the lieutenant that he is not required to salute him.
The Lieutenant starts getting angry and demands the Senior Airman to salute him.
The Senior Airman pulls out his wallet and hands the lieutenant a CAP ID Card.
The CAP ID Card showed the Air Force Senior Airman as a CAP Major.
The point: Be careful of who you try to mess with...they may be someone you don't expect!
You might want to send that to Snopes as it is clearly urban legend nonsense. The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach
zero, and in the case it were true, then the SrA should have saluted the CAP Lt as a matter of making the point
that the USAF should respect the nature of our volunteer service, and he has the same dynamic in his CAP uniform.
No one knows what ID card is in your wallet - there could be a civilian police badge, a Congressional ID, or an employee ID from a bank where you want to get a loan. Just show common respect, stop trying to settle scores or fix the socio-political state of CAP, act according to the shoulder and move on people.
It takes longer to read this message than the entire interaction.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2011, 11:41:43 PM
Quote from: caphornbuckle on February 16, 2011, 03:01:48 AM
It's been a while since I heard the following story.
Heck it could've been on here! (so take credit if you told it!)
(Different variances on grades though):
A CAP Lieutenant was yelling at an Air Force Senior Airman for not saluting him.
The Senior Airman explains to the lieutenant that he is not required to salute him.
The Lieutenant starts getting angry and demands the Senior Airman to salute him.
The Senior Airman pulls out his wallet and hands the lieutenant a CAP ID Card.
The CAP ID Card showed the Air Force Senior Airman as a CAP Major.
The point: Be careful of who you try to mess with...they may be someone you don't expect!
You might want to send that to Snopes as it is clearly urban legend nonsense. The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach
zero, and in the case it were true, then the SrA should have saluted the CAP Lt as a matter of making the point
that the USAF should respect the nature of our volunteer service, and he has the same dynamic in his CAP uniform.
No one knows what ID card is in your wallet - there could be a civilian police badge, a Congressional ID, or an employee ID from a bank where you want to get a loan. Just show common respect, stop trying to settle scores or fix the socio-political state of CAP, act according to the shoulder and move on people.
It takes longer to read this message than the entire interaction.
No, the Sra should not have saluted him.
When i was an Airman and worked the front gate, i had CAP members come through several times. I was already a 1st LT. SM, because of me being a past cadet, so a Sra being a major is not beyond reach.
Cap members do not get saluted, plain and simple. Its amazing we volunteer our time, but do not expect ANY active duty to ever salute you. Its nice if they do, but they do not have to. Doesn't matter if at night he goes home and changes into a cap uniform. During his time on duty, he is active duty AF, and follows there rules, regs, ucmj. It says we do not salute CAP members...plain and simple....
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2011, 11:41:43 PM
Quote from: caphornbuckle on February 16, 2011, 03:01:48 AM
It's been a while since I heard the following story.
Heck it could've been on here! (so take credit if you told it!)
(Different variances on grades though):
A CAP Lieutenant was yelling at an Air Force Senior Airman for not saluting him.
The Senior Airman explains to the lieutenant that he is not required to salute him.
The Lieutenant starts getting angry and demands the Senior Airman to salute him.
The Senior Airman pulls out his wallet and hands the lieutenant a CAP ID Card.
The CAP ID Card showed the Air Force Senior Airman as a CAP Major.
The point: Be careful of who you try to mess with...they may be someone you don't expect!
You might want to send that to Snopes as it is clearly urban legend nonsense. The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach
zero, and in the case it were true, then the SrA should have saluted the CAP Lt as a matter of making the point
that the USAF should respect the nature of our volunteer service, and he has the same dynamic in his CAP uniform.
No one knows what ID card is in your wallet - there could be a civilian police badge, a Congressional ID, or an employee ID from a bank where you want to get a loan. Just show common respect, stop trying to settle scores or fix the socio-political state of CAP, act according to the shoulder and move on people.
It takes longer to read this message than the entire interaction.
As I said, it was a story I heard and offered whoever told it to take credit for it. I also mentioned that there were variences on the grade. This may be an urban legend...so what?
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2011, 11:41:43 PM
Quote from: caphornbuckle on February 16, 2011, 03:01:48 AM
It's been a while since I heard the following story.
Heck it could've been on here! (so take credit if you told it!)
(Different variances on grades though):
A CAP Lieutenant was yelling at an Air Force Senior Airman for not saluting him.
The Senior Airman explains to the lieutenant that he is not required to salute him.
The Lieutenant starts getting angry and demands the Senior Airman to salute him.
The Senior Airman pulls out his wallet and hands the lieutenant a CAP ID Card.
The CAP ID Card showed the Air Force Senior Airman as a CAP Major.
The point: Be careful of who you try to mess with...they may be someone you don't expect!
You might want to send that to Snopes as it is clearly urban legend nonsense. The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach
zero, and in the case it were true, then the SrA should have saluted the CAP Lt as a matter of making the point
that the USAF should respect the nature of our volunteer service, and he has the same dynamic in his CAP uniform.
So, just being a volunteer entitles you automatically to a salute from an enlisted Airman? Do they also need to salute CAP NCOs?
Quote from: NCRblues on February 17, 2011, 12:38:00 AM
Cap members do not get saluted, plain and simple. Its amazing we volunteer our time, but do not expect ANY active duty to ever salute you. Its nice if they do, but they do not have to. Doesn't matter if at night he goes home and changes into a cap uniform. During his time on duty, he is active duty AF, and follows there rules, regs, ucmj. It says we do not salute CAP members...plain and simple....
I believe the military regs are either silent on the issue or say it is not required. I've always understood it is optional.
If I'm in my gray and whites I salute when required, return any given and do my best to address all RM members by their grade. (I sometimes miss on Navy enlisted :D)
I think Eclipse was suggesting that a CAP member who was also in the military and in military uniform might want to consider saluting a CAP officer of higher rank not because they are required or expected to but because as a CAP member themselves they understand CAP and might want to go that extra step as a courtesy.
Quote from: JK657 on February 17, 2011, 01:05:27 AMSo, just being a volunteer entitles you automatically to a salute from an enlisted Airman? Do they also need to salute CAP NCOs?
Obviously not. but you knew that already and chose to skew my point anyway.
New issue or reverse of this...
Suppose an active duty USAF officer attends a CAP meeting that meets at a Civilian Airport and starts to "exercise command" over the operations there. Suppose this person out ranks the Squadron Commander in grade and starts to effect policy?
Are we "duty bound" to respect that authority?
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 17, 2011, 02:32:55 AM
New issue or reverse of this...
Suppose an active duty USAF officer attends a CAP meeting that meets at a Civilian Airport and starts to "exercise command" over the operations there. Suppose this person out ranks the Squadron Commander in grade and starts to effect policy?
Are we "duty bound" to respect that authority?
We are duty bound to render C&C. The active duty officer has no authority over CAP members to respect or disrespect.
Quote from: ß τ ε on February 17, 2011, 02:58:06 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 17, 2011, 02:32:55 AM
New issue or reverse of this...
Suppose an active duty USAF officer attends a CAP meeting that meets at a Civilian Airport and starts to "exercise command" over the operations there. Suppose this person out ranks the Squadron Commander in grade and starts to effect policy?
Are we "duty bound" to respect that authority?
We are duty bound to render C&C. The active duty officer has no authority over CAP members to respect or disrespect.
And if one does? How is it to be handled. An active duty Colonel arrives to your meeting, demands to fly the aircraft citing his credentials as a USAF pilot and Civilian Pilot.
My point is that the situation is the same in ideal, someone over stepping their authority over an organization of which they have no direct connection.
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 17, 2011, 03:01:51 AM
Quote from: ß τ ε on February 17, 2011, 02:58:06 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 17, 2011, 02:32:55 AM
New issue or reverse of this...
Suppose an active duty USAF officer attends a CAP meeting that meets at a Civilian Airport and starts to "exercise command" over the operations there. Suppose this person out ranks the Squadron Commander in grade and starts to effect policy?
Are we "duty bound" to respect that authority?
We are duty bound to render C&C. The active duty officer has no authority over CAP members to respect or disrespect.
And if one does? How is it to be handled. An active duty Colonel arrives to your meeting, demands to fly the aircraft citing his credentials as a USAF pilot and Civilian Pilot.
My point is that the situation is the same in ideal, someone over stepping their authority over an organization of which they have no direct connection.
Honestly, I would tell the Colonel to *respectfully* take a flying leap and if he has a problem with it, take it up his chain of command and take it up your own as well.
I think a direct phone call to the Wing Commander would be in order, in your example. This seems like something that should be solved by a corporate officer. If need be, the Wing CC can determine where to go from there. I'm sure the Colonel will be getting a phone call about it from his chain eventually.
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 17, 2011, 03:01:51 AM
[And if one does? How is it to be handled. An active duty Colonel arrives to your meeting, demands to fly the aircraft citing his credentials as a USAF pilot and Civilian Pilot.
My point is that the situation is the same in ideal, someone over stepping their authority over an organization of which they have no direct connection.
The situation is not remotely the same. USAF officers are not members of CAP by virtue of their CAC card. If they overstep their bounds you ask them to leave, if they don't, you call the police, same as any other uninvited guest.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 17, 2011, 03:31:18 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 17, 2011, 03:01:51 AM
[And if one does? How is it to be handled. An active duty Colonel arrives to your meeting, demands to fly the aircraft citing his credentials as a USAF pilot and Civilian Pilot.
My point is that the situation is the same in ideal, someone over stepping their authority over an organization of which they have no direct connection.
The situation is not remotely the same. USAF officers are not members of CAP by virtue of their CAC card. If they overstep their bounds you ask them to leave, if they don't, you call the police, same as any other uninvited guest.
My point is to highlight that "line" between CAP and the USAF that exists in both cases. Airman don't have to salute CAP's Officers nor can CAP Officers exercise any authority over USAF personnel. By the same token, a USAF officer cannot exercise their authority in that capacity over CAP, unless it is a CAP/USAF officer and then only in official capacities.
If we respect and understand that line, these issues can be avoided.
Here's one, what if the President is an active CAP Officer? lol
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2011, 11:41:43 PM
You might want to send that to Snopes as it is clearly urban legend nonsense. The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach
zero, and in the case it were true, then the SrA should have saluted the CAP Lt as a matter of making the point that the USAF should respect the nature of our volunteer service, and he has the same dynamic in his CAP uniform.
Well, I'm an AK ANG SSgt, and a CAP Major, and I wouldn't salute a CAP 2d Lt, or a CAP Colonel if I was in my AF uniform and he was in my cornflakes... Just sayin.
Quote from: Ed Bos on February 17, 2011, 03:38:48 AMWell, I'm an AK ANG SSgt, and a CAP Major, and I wouldn't salute a CAP 2d Lt, or a CAP Colonel if I was in my AF uniform and he was in my cornflakes... Just sayin.
Why?
Or is it just the cornflakes part?
Its kind of sad the lengths that people will go to disrespect a volunteer. That's what we are, remember?
If you encounter us on a military base, we bought the uniform, paid to be in the club, and if it is a weekday might have taken off work, or given up a weekend just to encounter someone who can't be bothered to acknowledge our presence in the purest form of service camaraderie. This, probably, on a break from working to serve our country.
I've already said that any member making an issue of it should be 2b'ed on the spot, but with that said, it's one thing to simply overlook the person or just keep walking, but the animosity some people seem to have no issue displaying publicly towards such a simple gesture speaks volumes about the person displaying it as well.
Then again, there are plenty of people in the military who have no respect for their own officers, let alone for some "other" service "whatever the heck that is". I've read and heard plenty of comments from enlisted about their attitude towards officers in general, and in many cases it is only the rule of law that forces them to comply with the bare minimum of courtesies at all.
Why people join an organization that they disdain is beyond me.
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 17, 2011, 03:36:43 AM
Here's one, what if the President is an active CAP Officer?
Unless he's in in my chain, he's no different than any other member.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 17, 2011, 03:31:18 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 17, 2011, 03:01:51 AM
[And if one does? How is it to be handled. An active duty Colonel arrives to your meeting, demands to fly the aircraft citing his credentials as a USAF pilot and Civilian Pilot.
My point is that the situation is the same in ideal, someone over stepping their authority over an organization of which they have no direct connection.
The situation is not remotely the same. USAF officers are not members of CAP by virtue of their CAC card. If they overstep their bounds you ask them to leave, if they don't, you call the police, same as any other uninvited guest.
write down the date, I AGREE!
Quote from: Eclipse on February 17, 2011, 03:41:35 AM
Quote from: Ed Bos on February 17, 2011, 03:38:48 AMWell, I'm an AK ANG SSgt, and a CAP Major, and I wouldn't salute a CAP 2d Lt, or a CAP Colonel if I was in my AF uniform and he was in my cornflakes... Just sayin.
Why?
Or is it just the cornflakes part?
The cornflakes part is exactly the reason. Some friends of mine and I agree that saluting Senior CAP Officers (Colonel and above) is the right thing to do no matter the uniform we're wearing at the time. But the mutual respect thing is important, and if anyone demands a salute they're showing how little they deserve it, no matter what uniform THEY'RE wearing at the time.
Its kind of sad the lengths that people will go to disrespect a volunteer. That's what we are, remember?
If you encounter us on a military base, we bought the uniform, paid to be in the club, and if it is a weekday might have taken off work, or given up a weekend just to encounter someone who can't be bothered to acknowledge our presence in the purest form of service camaraderie. This, probably, on a break from working to serve our country.
I understand your point, but I disagree about a central issue. Just because someone chooses to volunteer their time doesn't make them a good person. There are folks in CAP across the country that are altruistically motivated, and they deserve all the respect and admiration from their peers that you're describing. I do not feel that paying our dues and showing up on meeting nights automatically enjoins us to that status, however. We've all seen the folks who give the organization a bad rap with their attitudes, and that's the point of this whole brouhaha.
I've already said that any member making an issue of it should be 2b'ed on the spot, but with that said, it's one thing to simply overlook the person or just keep walking, but the animosity some people seem to have no issue displaying publicly towards such a simple gesture speaks volumes about the person displaying it as well.
The gesture isn't THAT simple... It's an important part of tradition and culture, and the significance of this formalized greeting is why some people have animosity towards it. I know I'm, "just a guard guy," to many people who aren't familiar with how that component of the Uniformed Service works, but I think that these customs are even more important to those of us who don't render them every day.
Then again, there are plenty of people in the military who have no respect for their own officers, let alone for some "other" service "whatever the heck that is". I've read and heard plenty of comments from enlisted about their attitude towards officers in general, and in many cases it is only the rule of law that forces them to comply with the bare minimum of courtesies at all.
And it's been said a number different of ways in this thread, but it's the MUTUAL RESPECT that was missing from the alleged offender in this situation, and the same for many folks I've talked to who feel a lack of camaraderie and may show less that professional attitudes at times. The esprit de corps a unit has when they have good leadership (that shows mutual respect among other things) often encourages the more-grumble-heavy enlisted folks into showing more than the "bare minimum of courtesies."
Why people join an organization that they disdain is beyond me.
I'm not clear about what you're referring to here, but if I understand you correctly then you have completely misinterpreted my original response. I love the Civil Air Patrol in all its facets with all its foibles. What I am intolerant of is the individuals within the membership who misunderstand their place, their role, and the privilege of association that comes with membership.
I would be a member of CAP even without my CAP grade. Any CAP Senior Member who displays their insecurity and lack of professionalism by conducting themselves in the way described in the National Commander's letter don't belong in my organization, much less deserve a heritage-rich salutation from me.
I get a different vibe from this. I remember right before the berry board/loss of hard rank days. There were rumors of problems with Seniors Members on Maxwell AFB being out of uniform. But no solid report. I like the corrective action of this, but I would have also liked more facts. Alot of the blame goes to the complainants on that.
Respectfully,
Quote from: Eclipse on February 17, 2011, 03:31:18 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 17, 2011, 03:01:51 AM
[And if one does? How is it to be handled. An active duty Colonel arrives to your meeting, demands to fly the aircraft citing his credentials as a USAF pilot and Civilian Pilot.
My point is that the situation is the same in ideal, someone over stepping their authority over an organization of which they have no direct connection.
The situation is not remotely the same. USAF officers are not members of CAP by virtue of their CAC card. If they overstep their bounds you ask them to leave, if they don't, you call the police, same as any other uninvited guest.
The real solution is that someone should have been on the phone immediately to wing or the NOC and let the Air Force side deal with him immediately.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 17, 2011, 03:43:40 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 17, 2011, 03:36:43 AM
Here's one, what if the President is an active CAP Officer?
Unless he's in in my chain, he's no different than any other member.
Keep in mind the the current vice president is a lieutenant colonel in our organization.
Quote from: Ed Bos on February 17, 2011, 07:39:15 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 17, 2011, 03:41:35 AM
Quote from: Ed Bos on February 17, 2011, 03:38:48 AMWell, I'm an AK ANG SSgt, and a CAP Major, and I wouldn't salute a CAP 2d Lt, or a CAP Colonel if I was in my AF uniform and he was in my cornflakes... Just sayin.
Why?
Or is it just the cornflakes part?
The cornflakes part is exactly the reason. Some friends of mine and I agree that saluting Senior CAP Officers (Colonel and above) is the right thing to do no matter the uniform we're wearing at the time. But the mutual respect thing is important, and if anyone demands a salute they're showing how little they deserve it, no matter what uniform THEY'RE wearing at the time.
Its kind of sad the lengths that people will go to disrespect a volunteer. That's what we are, remember?
If you encounter us on a military base, we bought the uniform, paid to be in the club, and if it is a weekday might have taken off work, or given up a weekend just to encounter someone who can't be bothered to acknowledge our presence in the purest form of service camaraderie. This, probably, on a break from working to serve our country.
I understand your point, but I disagree about a central issue. Just because someone chooses to volunteer their time doesn't make them a good person. There are folks in CAP across the country that are altruistically motivated, and they deserve all the respect and admiration from their peers that you're describing. I do not feel that paying our dues and showing up on meeting nights automatically enjoins us to that status, however. We've all seen the folks who give the organization a bad rap with their attitudes, and that's the point of this whole brouhaha.
I've already said that any member making an issue of it should be 2b'ed on the spot, but with that said, it's one thing to simply overlook the person or just keep walking, but the animosity some people seem to have no issue displaying publicly towards such a simple gesture speaks volumes about the person displaying it as well.
The gesture isn't THAT simple... It's an important part of tradition and culture, and the significance of this formalized greeting is why some people have animosity towards it. I know I'm, "just a guard guy," to many people who aren't familiar with how that component of the Uniformed Service works, but I think that these customs are even more important to those of us who don't render them every day.
Then again, there are plenty of people in the military who have no respect for their own officers, let alone for some "other" service "whatever the heck that is". I've read and heard plenty of comments from enlisted about their attitude towards officers in general, and in many cases it is only the rule of law that forces them to comply with the bare minimum of courtesies at all.
And it's been said a number different of ways in this thread, but it's the MUTUAL RESPECT that was missing from the alleged offender in this situation, and the same for many folks I've talked to who feel a lack of camaraderie and may show less that professional attitudes at times. The esprit de corps a unit has when they have good leadership (that shows mutual respect among other things) often encourages the more-grumble-heavy enlisted folks into showing more than the "bare minimum of courtesies."
Why people join an organization that they disdain is beyond me.
I'm not clear about what you're referring to here, but if I understand you correctly then you have completely misinterpreted my original response. I love the Civil Air Patrol in all its facets with all its foibles. What I am intolerant of is the individuals within the membership who misunderstand their place, their role, and the privilege of association that comes with membership.
I would be a member of CAP even without my CAP grade. Any CAP Senior Member who displays their insecurity and lack of professionalism by conducting themselves in the way described in the National Commander's letter don't belong in my organization, much less deserve a heritage-rich salutation from me.
When I was stationed in Alaska back in the late 1970s (AAC: the best ^@!)@& command in the USAF: Top Cover for America and all that!) What happened to the relationship between the CAP and the USAF? That relationship was so intertwined then that CAP officers enjoyed a great level of respect around Elmendorf. Was it just because of people like Bob Reeves and Noel Wein or Colonel Anderson. What changed that?
QuoteThe odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach zero,
...have to call no joy; when I was a SrA; I was a CAP Captain, the only thing I had left to complete for major was CLC.
And no the SrA in the story should not have saltued the the POS lietenant (or even the original major in question for that matter) in question; maybe if there had been no demanding of salutes sure (I would have) but after they made a fool of themself I would have told them to go pound sand too, moreover I would have asked what squadron they were from and had a chat with thier CC about thier behavior.
I agree with Ed Boss; when working with CAP as an AF NCO I dont go out of my way to salute every CAP officer and thier brother I run into running arond the AO( generally only LTC and up with any regularity) I do use the words sir/ma'am though with all CAP officers.
I am sorry I wont salute you just because you are a volunteer and dumped money out of your pocket to come and play; get real. I will say thansks for all you do, but that doesnt mean DESERVE a salute.
mk
Quote from: flyboy1 on February 17, 2011, 12:26:20 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 17, 2011, 03:43:40 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 17, 2011, 03:36:43 AM
Here's one, what if the President is an active CAP Officer?
Unless he's in in my chain, he's no different than any other member.
Keep in mind the the current vice president is a lieutenant colonel in our organization.
Unless he's in my chain, he has no authority based on being either the Vice Pres or a Lt. Colonel.
Saluting CAP Officers is just below the dignity of a real life, hard corp warrior type of the Alaska ANG? You are free to ignore CAP regulations on the matter, and its unlikely that anyone will call you on it in person, other that to just note your rude behavior. How this may effect the Alaska ANG could be analogous to how the alleged and unsubstantiated "salute trolling" defames CAP. Its okay, many of us hold irrational beliefs. I believe that although the US purchased Alaska as an investment, they are still really "probationary" as a State....Most of the CAP Officers I know and respect are prior service military, and I am honored to have the privilege of offering them a salute. Honored. Sure, there are lots of people who may not live up to whatever standards I hold as warriors worthy of my esteem, but CAP is not in the warrior business. Nonetheless, the hand salute is still a part of our Corporate culture. You can turn your back on the flag during the pledge of allegiance too, and no one will throw you out of CAP, but it reveals more about you than it does about CAP.
Major Lord
Wait, Joe Biden is really in CAP? Never mind, I quit!
Quote from: sarmed1 on February 17, 2011, 01:35:08 PM
QuoteThe odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach zero,
...have to call no joy; when I was a SrA; I was a CAP Captain, the only thing I had left to complete for major was CLC.
And no the SrA in the story should not have saltued the the POS lietenant (or even the original major in question for that matter) in question; maybe if there had been no demanding of salutes sure (I would have) but after they made a fool of themself I would have told them to go pound sand too, moreover I would have asked what squadron they were from and had a chat with thier CC about thier behavior.
I agree with Ed Boss; when working with CAP as an AF NCO I dont go out of my way to salute every CAP officer and thier brother I run into running arond the AO( generally only LTC and up with any regularity) I do use the words sir/ma'am though with all CAP officers.
I am sorry I wont salute you just because you are a volunteer and dumped money out of your pocket to come and play; get real. I will say thansks for all you do, but that doesnt mean DESERVE a salute.
First "approaches zero" specifically means "not typical but is possible", so arguing "is possible" means you aren't really reading what it says.
Second, the "POS lieutenant" in most of these cases only gets to that point when they have already been disregarded by the person of lower grade.
Unacceptable behavior, throw them out of CAP, but on the big schoolyard of life "they started it".
In terms of my "volunteer statement", the disdain for saluting by members who are also in the military is doubly unacceptable, if for no reason then
they should know better and set the example for those around them.
"Yeah, they aren't in the military, but they are here on their own dime and just want to help us. Throw your hand and move on"
Quote from: NCRblues on February 17, 2011, 12:38:00 AM
No, the Sra should not have saluted him.
Cap members do not get saluted, plain and simple. Its amazing we volunteer our time, but do not expect ANY active duty to ever salute you. Its nice if they do, but they do not have to. Doesn't matter if at night he goes home and changes into a cap uniform. During his time on duty, he is active duty AF, and follows there rules, regs, ucmj. It says we do not salute CAP members...plain and simple....
I call Bravo Sierra on this one.
Show me where in the UCMJ you "do not salute CAP members."
In our regs it says that "military members are
not obligated to salute CAP officers, but
are not prohibited from doing so if they wish.That's a big difference.
I wonder if the mentality of the MTI quoted on the AF Times thread about this "if you see a CAP officer,
ignore him/her" is becoming unofficial policy throughout the Air Force.
If it is, they need to be called on it.
Quote from: Ed Bos on February 17, 2011, 03:38:48 AM
Well, I'm an AK ANG SSgt, and a CAP Major, and I wouldn't salute a CAP 2d Lt, or a CAP Colonel if I was in my AF uniform and he was in my cornflakes... Just sayin.
That's a bloody self-righteous attitude.
Then you shouldn't expect even a courteous greeting from a CAP member.
Quote from: Major Lord on February 17, 2011, 03:20:30 PM
Saluting CAP Officers is just below the dignity of a real life, hard corp warrior type of the Alaska ANG? You are free to ignore CAP regulations on the matter, and its unlikely that anyone will call you on it in person, other that to just note your rude behavior.
I would.
Not about saluting, since the ANG NCO in question isn't required to salute the CAP officer, but you darn well better believe I'd call him on his rudeness.
Quote from: Ed Bos on February 17, 2011, 07:39:15 AM
Why people join an organization that they disdain is beyond me.
I'm not clear about what you're referring to here, but if I understand you correctly then you have completely misinterpreted my original response. I love the Civil Air Patrol in all its facets with all its foibles. What I am intolerant of is the individuals within the membership who misunderstand their place, their role, and the privilege of association that comes with membership.
I would be a member of CAP even without my CAP grade. Any CAP Senior Member who displays their insecurity and lack of professionalism by conducting themselves in the way described in the National Commander's letter don't belong in my organization, much less deserve a heritage-rich salutation from me.
I am not referring to CAP members, I am referring to members of the military who join up and then disdain the very values and traditions they have sworn to uphold. In a lot of cases the whole saluting and courtesies issue has nothing to do with whether CAP members deserve "warrior respect", but instead is about ego and finding someone they can "show who is
really the
man".
When you consider that there are 7 salutable uniformed services, all with their own take on things, and part of the supposed heartburn with CAP is how are uniforms are "virtually indistinguishable from USAF uniforms", I don't see how people have time to do the mental gymnastics necessary to recognize an approaching officer, realize a salute will be warranted, then realize he's CAP, then decide whether you feel like saluting, and then purposely ignore them, without walking into a light pole or getting hit by a car.
I currently work in the world of trade shows and business travel - everyone from the taxi drivers, airline people, show management workers, and hotel staff are strangers, 24x7, yet that doesn't stop me from being friendly, exchanging a smile or a nod, and being respectful. I've learned that in all circumstances doors open and life is much easier for everyone when you act that way, even when someone isn't necessarily making my life easier at the moment.
Consider also, how much, in most circumstances, that "meaningless gesture" actually
does mean to the person receiving it. For the cost of a "meh, whatever" to you, you probably make that person's day, if not year. And it isn't like they are actually going to start giving you orders.
So to take a mental / political stance that an entire class of people, once which your parent service acknowledges as "part of the team", are so beneath you that you go out of your way to make sure they know it, seems like a lot of wasted effort to me.
Probabally going to jam my size 11 in my mouth with this one but for me its simply not a blanket item here. I am not required to salute CAP officers. IF I choose to whip one out (because again I am not required to) its because I feel they deserve the respect equivilent to a member of the armed services; but based on the behaviors or appearance of many CAP officers I am not going to offer that equivilency soley on the basis of "....hey I paid my money and bought this snazzy uniform...whoohoo look at me!!"
I am sure someone is going to point out that in general passing by I am not going to be able to make such a judgement; but thats my philosphy on it; you'll get the greating of the day and a sir/ma'am, just like any other CIVILIAN here on the AF's time/dime unless I find reason to go beyond that.
mk
As a CAP senior member, it all comes down to these 3 things for me:
1. I don't expect a salute from any AD, Reserve, or NG member, officer or enlisted. If one is rendered, I return it sharply and greet them with respect.
2. I will initiate a salute to any military officer regardless of their rank.
3. Treat all with respect.
Yes, it's that simple.
Technical Sergeant, are you also a CAP member?
If all you think of CAP members is as people who feel we "deserve" a salute because we have a "snazzy uniform," then speaking only for myself, I don't need or want your "respect."
FWIW, whenever I was in my Guard uniform, I always saluted CAP officers.
After all, a salute is just a military greeting - one of the "courtesies" in Customs and Courtesies.
It never hurts to be courteous.
Ned Lee
Retired Army Guard Guy
A few different folks seem to misunderstand my view.
To be clear, I didn't mean any of my commentary to indicate I'd go out of my way to be rude to anyone.
Again, I feel this less a matter of how much CAP Officers deserve to be saluted, it's a matter of the quality of their interactions with others. And I choose to be polite & professional until I meet someone who isn't. And then I'm merely curt & professional. That is a reflection of their attitude, not their CAP or AF status.
I don't mean to invite re-attack... Anymore concerns about my comments are welcome to be PM'd, but I think this thread is getting chock full. .
Quote from: flyboy1 on February 17, 2011, 12:37:48 PM
When I was stationed in Alaska back in the late 1970s (AAC: the best ^@!)@& command in the USAF: Top Cover for America and all that!) What happened to the relationship between the CAP and the USAF? That relationship was so intertwined then that CAP officers enjoyed a great level of respect around Elmendorf. Was it just because of people like Bob Reeves and Noel Wein or Colonel Anderson. What changed that?
The same thing that happens to these sort of relationships. We've actually still got a very good working relationship with the AF and State of AK folks who deal directly with us, but a lot of folks don't know who we are. We've got a very good supporter in the TAG, and quite a few other senior folks as well. I wouldn't call the relationship "intertwined" any longer though. I'll ask Mr. Whitaker, the state Director, what he thinks about your question.
Quote from: DKruse on February 17, 2011, 06:19:25 PM
As a CAP senior member, it all comes down to these 3 things for me:
[. . .]
2. I will initiate a salute to any military officer regardless of their rank.
As a former Army guy, let me gently suggest that #2 is somewhat problematic for a CAP captain.
If someone wearing railroad tracks salutes a lieutenant - especially an Army lieutenant - you will simply confuse them and possibly cause them some embarrasment as they try to work through the protocol in their heads.
I say this based on five years or so as an Army lieutenant. They get beat about the head and shoulders about saluting, and regularly are discouraged and razzed if a 2LT salutes a 1LT. ("Debating rank amongst lieutentants is like debating virtue amongst hookers . . .")
A professional greeting is always, always appropriate. You can make them smile with things like "Have a great Air Patrol day, L-T. "
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2011, 11:41:43 PM
You might want to send that to Snopes as it is clearly urban legend nonsense. The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach
zero, and in the case it were true, then the SrA should have saluted the CAP Lt as a matter of making the point
that the USAF should respect the nature of our volunteer service, and he has the same dynamic in his CAP uniform.
Not so. I personally know a CAP Major who is a USAF AD SSgt.
All you would need to do is get your Spaatz, enlist, and you are a Captain in CAP... In 3 years, you have TIG for Major, which I presume would be ahead of schedule for SSgt.
Quote from: Ned on February 17, 2011, 07:17:52 PM
Quote from: DKruse on February 17, 2011, 06:19:25 PM
As a CAP senior member, it all comes down to these 3 things for me:
[. . .]
2. I will initiate a salute to any military officer regardless of their rank.
As a former Army guy, let me gently suggest that #2 is somewhat problematic for a CAP captain.
Concur. Let the system work the way it is intended. A polite greeting of the day and possibly thanking the officer for his/her service suffices.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 17, 2011, 07:25:18 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2011, 11:41:43 PM
You might want to send that to Snopes as it is clearly urban legend nonsense. The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach
zero, and in the case it were true, then the SrA should have saluted the CAP Lt as a matter of making the point
that the USAF should respect the nature of our volunteer service, and he has the same dynamic in his CAP uniform.
Not so. I personally know a CAP Major who is a USAF AD SSgt.
All you would need to do is get your Spaatz, enlist, and you are a Captain in CAP... In 3 years, you have TIG for Major, which I presume would be ahead of schedule for SSgt.
((*sigh*)) Again "approaches zero" specifically doesn't mean "never". Reaching for "some guy who might, or did once" doesn't mean much in a generalized conversation.
Couple that the odd of these .0001%'ers encountering a PITA CAP officer on a military base, and then refusing to salute that officer, and the statistical
relevance is literally zero.
Quote from: DKruse on February 17, 2011, 06:19:25 PM
2. I will initiate a salute to any military officer regardless of their rank.
Never, ever, do that - you're making it worse.
Quote2. I will initiate a salute to any military officer regardless of their rank.
I know you have been taken to task for that statement. Some say not to do it because it will confuse the 'other side'.
What is interesting is that a USCG Auxie volunteer, regardless of office (the Aux does not use rank), 'stars, bars, chickens or leaves', salutes all military officers, regardless of the others military rank. That means the USCG Auxiliary National Commodore, a 4 star volunteer, would salute the newest minted Ensign.
Some extracts from the Auxiliary Manual (AuxMan) related to Auxies saluting Real Military:
QuoteAuxiliarists, when out of doors, in uniform and covered, should:
• As a courtesy, initiate, or return a hand salute to commissioned officers.
As a general rule, Auxies don't salute each other.
As the AuxMan puts it:
QuoteSaluting is not required between Auxiliarists.
and
QuoteSaluting between Auxiliarists is not usually the custom.
good thing were not the coast guard Aux... >:D
QuoteIf all you think of CAP members is as people who feel we "deserve" a salute because we have a "snazzy uniform," then speaking only for myself, I don't need or want your "respect."
That is not my thought at all; however what was the point of this whole thread? The National Commander of CAP thought enough of one, unsubstantiated incident by 1 of some 60,000 members to write a letter to the entire membeship to remind everyone of exacatly that; just because you are wearing a miltary style uniform and a rank insignia similar to that of commisioned officers of the Armed Forces, you not entitiled to being saluted by military members.
Eclipse may live in the world of near zero percent chances, but just based on the anectdotal stories a number of people have relayed here, it seems to be an issue of more than 1 in 60000 members abusing their privleges......
mk
^^PM received and replied. Check your inbox.
I think that General Courter's letter, and the "nervous Nellie" attitude of many at National, are more reflective of the mindset that CAP has been in for at least the past 20 years; that we are so afraid of offending the Air Force again that we go into "damage control" mode even if there is no substantiated "damage."
Quote from: CyBorg on February 18, 2011, 04:27:30 AM
^^PM received and replied. Check your inbox.
I think that General Courter's letter, and the "nervous Nellie" attitude of many at National, are more reflective of the mindset that CAP has been in for at least the past 20 years; that we are so afraid of offending the Air Force again that we go into "damage control" mode even if there is no substantiated "damage."
It's not that at all.
Look at what's happened over the past decade. We went from an organization where the Air Force Auxiliary identity was promanently displayed on our command patches to the point where we are only the "auxiliary" essentially when under DoD tasking. In that time period we had several national commanders who gradually built a strong, positive relationship with the Air Force. Then we have one national commander that ignored the Air Force to do his own thing, where politics ran rampant, integrity went right out the window and our reputation went into the toilet...so much so that his actions factored into the redesign of the ACSC and AWC distance learning testing system.
So here we are today; an organization strong in some ways and holding on by a tread in others. That thread (our relationship to the Air Force) needs to grow into something very firm for both organization's futures. Our current national leadership has worked hard to reverse the errors of the past; and just when things start looking great again, something like this happens. So, the only thing to do is to micro-manage incidents like these before they get worse.
Remember, it only took a mistaken identity at a hotel to launch the whole maroon shoulder rank thing. There probably were other incidents, but that's the one everyone remembers.
I would hope that some day, our Air Force relationship is such that we are strongly respected again; where a salute is rendered out of respect regardless of who we are; where we might even be just like the Coast Guard Auxiliary and wear some of the same ribbons/medals that their A/D and reserve counterparts wear. I realize that there was a Presidential Executive Order in place when that happened in World War II, but wouldn't that be something if it happened again.
Quotewhere we might even be just like the Coast Guard Auxiliary and wear some of the same ribbons/medals that their A/D and reserve counterparts wear
Although there are a few USCG awards, mostly group and team awards, that Auxies may earn, the trend is toward the USCG creating Auxie only versions of awards and devices. RiverAux is also familiar with the trend and it was a subject of a recent thread on an Auxie board.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2011, 11:41:43 PM
You might want to send that to Snopes as it is clearly urban legend nonsense. The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach
zero, and in the case it were true, then the SrA should have saluted the CAP Lt as a matter of making the point
that the USAF should respect the nature of our volunteer service, and he has the same dynamic in his CAP uniform.
Kinda like board member Maj Tim Medeiros who is at AF BMT right now?
Quote from: Al Sayre on February 18, 2011, 01:31:05 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2011, 11:41:43 PM
You might want to send that to Snopes as it is clearly urban legend nonsense. The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach
zero, and in the case it were true, then the SrA should have saluted the CAP Lt as a matter of making the point
that the USAF should respect the nature of our volunteer service, and he has the same dynamic in his CAP uniform.
Kinda like board member Maj Tim Medeiros who is at AF BMT right now?
Tell you what - when's he makes SrA, encounters a CAP officer and refuses to salute, and the CAP officer is a PITA about it, we'll go to the big-board
and set the first digit from 0 to 1.
Anecdotal information and 1% do not make an argument or a program, especially when one of the people allows for the remote possibility in
the process of the argument.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 18, 2011, 02:47:12 PM
Quote from: Al Sayre on February 18, 2011, 01:31:05 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2011, 11:41:43 PM
You might want to send that to Snopes as it is clearly urban legend nonsense. The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach
zero, and in the case it were true, then the SrA should have saluted the CAP Lt as a matter of making the point
that the USAF should respect the nature of our volunteer service, and he has the same dynamic in his CAP uniform.
Kinda like board member Maj Tim Medeiros who is at AF BMT right now?
Tell you what - when's he makes SrA, encounters a CAP officer and refuses to salute, and the CAP officer is a PITA about it, we'll go to the big-board
and set the first digit from 0 to 1.
Anecdotal information and 1% do not make an argument or a program, especially when one of the people allows for the remote possibility in
the process of the argument.
Well said! I am astounded that anyone would argue the truth is not relevant to the discussion.
Major Lord
Said Letter:
https://www.capnhq.gov/news/Documents/Military_Salute_Letter_to_all_CAP_members.pdf
That link doesn't work outside of logging into eServices... when logged in look on the news.. should be top one.
The argument about a CAP Major not being able to be a SrAmn is assuming that everyone joins the military at age 18. I have a member who is a CAP Capt and an A1C in the Air Guard and he is in his late 20's.
My wife was a CAP Major when she was a SrA on Active Duty. Now she's a 2d Lt on Active Duty and still a Major. But I agree that the odds are rather slim - but not unheard of.
A good friend of mine was CAP Major, squadron CC, and at the same time TSgt in Air Nat'l Guard.
I once stayed at a Holiday Inn Express
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 18, 2011, 08:22:27 PM
I once stayed at a Holiday Inn Express
But I bet it was less than 1% of your total lifespan!
I remember when in Air Force tech school back in '90 when there was something CAP related happening at Sheppard. A fellow squadron member had been a cadet, got her Earhart. I asked her a little about the program. She explained to me about cadets and senior members. One thing I distinctly recall her telling me was that CAP senior member offciers wore the usual military rank insignia, and for that reason they were required to be saluted.
I imagine that by now, she is either no longer a member, or has been educated about our customs and courteousies. However, the idea that our officers are supposed to be saluted by military enlisted is apparently not even remotely new.
Seems like a little more Level 1 education may be in order. That and a few regular reminders of some of those things. CAP personnel overall probably don't regularly interact with military personnel, so it wouldn't be a bad idea to reinforce "the way it's supposed to be."
I think C and Cs are important for the military and CAP. That said, it is sometimes confusing to know what to do and when.
Sometimes even the military gets it wrong.
http://www.militarytimes.com/forum/showthread.php?1588995-Protocol-for-Reville-Retreat-amp-TAPS-in-base-housing
There are times when cultures clash accidentally. For Instance - My Grandfather, being a WW1 Officer, used to stand and salute the TV when the National Anthem was played at the
end of the Broadcast Day. He thought I was a lazy, ineffectual, and ignorant boy for not doing the same. So when I was in his house, I stood in silence then saluted the TV.
I think this issue and specifically this trolling anecdote displeases and shames us all. If we knew the offended we would personally apologize on behalf of the Patrol. If we knew the offending member we would take that person to task for bringing discredit to us all. We don't know either. We have been warned by our commander. It is to all of us to make sure we spread the word.
I don't think this indicates a major break in the Air Force and CAP. I have received nothing but thanks from the Air Force. I have always received deep appreciation from Air Force personnel. They always seem very happy with our volunteerism and professionalism. So like my Grandfather - I'll take the General's general reminder and train members better at all times. However, we can't control every thing at all times. In this it is a bit like safety. Zero tolerance is one thing. Zero events is another. Since events will occasionally occur. Then give the Air Force it's blood. Find the offender. Fire the offender. Take appropriate personnel action. Be ruthless about the issue, but make it personal. Spread the word that blood has been let.
Proposal: Spend a little more time on Cs and Cs in level one training. Fire all offenders with prejudice. Let the Air Force know - that while it may occur on rare occasions - it will never be tolerated. Please provide us with a name and place and we'll make sure that there is a CAP career death penalty. Otherwise, tell the Air Force that both the CSU and this matter have been promptly addressed and don't come to us with 3rd person hearsay, spurious rumors, or "I was tolds.".
The Truth:
1. Many RM personnel have no idea what CAP is and have no idea that our officers are non-commissioned and not required to be saluted, and thus will salute "just in case" or out of ignorance.
2. Some RM personnel will salute CAP officers even if they understand that they do not need to either out of habit, respect, or lack of recognition of the CAP member as a CAP member.
3. Many RM personnel will not render a salute to CAP either because it is not required, or because of a lack of respect (for whatever reason).
4. Some CAP members are misinformed and think that they are entitled to salutes from RM just as they are from CAP members.
5. Some CAP members once were trained/informed that CAP is not entitled, but forgot, or are so used to it from CAP members (and don't encounter RM enough) that they forget.
6. Some CAP members likely are aware that they are not entitled to salutes, but count on #1 or #2.
7. Sometimes, a given combination of #1-6 create unfortunate circumstances that lead to issues/butt-pain/ego/embarassment/etc on one or both parts.
I personally have no problem with Gen Courter's letter. Regardless of how serious of an issue this particular case may or may not have become, we all know that there are folks who fit into #4-6 that could one day trigger a serious incident. I have zero problem with the CAP/CC requesting that all members be reminded/informed as to what our status is and where we fit in the pecking order. In fact, I wish she would write another letter reminding everyone that C&C are to be followed in CAP IAW CAPP 151 and that 39-1 is not optional, in whole or in part.
Speaking for myself, I feel about the same about my CAP service as I did as a civilian contractor on a base in the sandbox - while I may be "only" a civilian contractor/CAP member, without me, certain jobs don't get done -- I'm doing my part just like our brethren in the RM. No, I don't pick up a weapon and defend our Nation against its enemies, but I would submit that a great portion of our military does not, either. This doesn't make the solider who serves in a support capacity any less important, however. As a contractor and a CAP member, I am/was providing support functions as a part of the larger team that help/helped the team execute the overall mission, regardless of how minor my part might be/might have been. Remember, there's very few places that can function for very long without the janitor.
Therefore, when a member of the RM for whatever (pick a) reason proffers a salute, I respond in kind as a member of the extended team. If a salute is not proffered, I do not take offense, since I remain cognizant that I am not entitled to one. But then, that's not why I do what I do.
As to the incident that kicked off the letter and this thread, I certainly hope that everyone who has or who might have demanded courtesies to which they were not entitled is now sufficiently informed not only about how wrong their beliefs in this regard were, but also as to the potential problems that can be caused be acting on said erroneous beliefs.
Very well said ^^^^^^^^^
FWIW: this supposed letter hasn't even been distributed in CAWG. I guess that our 3500 members don't need to be reminded of this "supposed" problem. Or, our Wing hierarchy doesn't think that it warrants distrirbution: might disturb our cadets.
8 days and counting.
You know there were areas inside the wire downrange where you would have RM O-5s or O-6s get upset when the didn't get a salute. Granted it was inside the wire but I would rather have everyone in the habit of NOT saluting in that part of the world. There is a reason a salute in a war-zone is also known as a "sniper check"
To me the ultimate sign of respect from my troops was accomplishing the mission, not a salute.
Quote from: bosshawk on February 20, 2011, 06:13:57 PM
FWIW: this supposed letter hasn't even been distributed in CAWG. I guess that our 3500 members don't need to be reminded of this "supposed" problem. Or, our Wing hierarchy doesn't think that it warrants distrirbution: might disturb our cadets.
8 days and counting.
Well, I'm not sure what it says about the CAWG staff's promptness, but the letter is no longer 'supposed'.
It was posted to the News section of eServices two days ago for the whole world (of CAP members) to see.
Thom
Late, breaking news, it was sent out by the Wing CC on Sunday afternoon. As far as I was concerned, it was "supposed" until I saw it from an authorized source.
Quote from: bosshawk on February 20, 2011, 09:36:44 PM
Late, breaking news, it was sent out by the Wing CC on Sunday afternoon. As far as I was concerned, it was "supposed" until I saw it from an authorized source.
It's been in eServices for two days now. How much more authorized does it get?
I have a habit of checking eServices about once every two weeks, whether I need to or not. I have likely checked it for the last time in my CAP service, as my membership expires in 8 days and I have no intention of renewing it.
Back when we had actual classes during Level I, we would stress the fact the our "officers" did not rate a salute from the REAL military but we were required to salute them. Do you think that, just maybe, it gets passed over too lightly and doesn't make a strong enough impression now that everything is done on line?
Quote from: bosshawk on February 20, 2011, 11:00:53 PM
I have a habit of checking eServices about once every two weeks, whether I need to or not. I have likely checked it for the last time in my CAP service, as my membership expires in 8 days and I have no intention of renewing it.
May I ask why you are choosing not to renew? It can't be just this thread! When I was making my recent decision to renew or not, this discussion was heavy on my mind. Honor begins in truth, and it seems the "Officer Corp" of CAP took a face slap from its own self-serving leadership, based on what appear to be questionable claims. Honor not worth defending is not worth having, and show me a CAP member who would treat an Air Force enlisted member in such a fashion, and I would be the first guy to slip a condom on my boot and conduct a thorough "reeducation" program.
Although it appears to me that CAP is circling the drain, I think most of our problems are problems of leadership. It often appears that we are an agency filled with stagnancy and constantly arguing for our own limitations, foundering in the boggy mire of indecision, mired in uniform minutia, and a pathological fear of looking bad. Instead, we should be promoting what we could do for our country, if given half a chance. I am betting another 75.00 bucks that enough of the "leadership" will come floating down the river to be replaced with people who care more about doing something worthwhile, and less about writing memoranda that are not just pointless, but actually harmful. Good luck with whatever happens next if you decide not to renew, CAP could use a guy like you.
Major Lord
Quote from: Grumpy on February 20, 2011, 11:14:15 PM
Back when we had actual classes during Level I, we would stress the fact the our "officers" did not rate a salute from the REAL military but we were required to salute them. Do you think that, just maybe, it gets passed over too lightly and doesn't make a strong enough impression now that everything is done on line?
Why does this myth continue to exist? Level 1 is
not an on-line course.
Quote from: EMT-83 on February 21, 2011, 02:31:02 AM
Quote from: Grumpy on February 20, 2011, 11:14:15 PM
Back when we had actual classes during Level I, we would stress the fact the our "officers" did not rate a salute from the REAL military but we were required to salute them. Do you think that, just maybe, it gets passed over too lightly and doesn't make a strong enough impression now that everything is done on line?
Why does this myth continue to exist? Level 1 is not an on-line course.
True. But with the exception of part of CPPT and the summary conversation, all of the courses required are online.
http://capmembers.com/cap_university/level_i_foundations.cfm
OPSEC, EO and the new safety course are on-line. The remaining training material is available on-line, but it not an on-line course.
Quote from: EMT-83 on February 21, 2011, 02:53:33 AM
OPSEC, EO and the new safety course are on-line. The remaining training material is available on-line, but it not an on-line course.
Yes, but these things began as on line courses later "grafted" onto Level 1. The course itself is still a squadron function complete with paperwork/documentation.
Quote from: EMT-83 on February 21, 2011, 02:53:33 AM
OPSEC, EO and the new safety course are on-line. The remaining training material is available on-line, but it not an on-line course.
http://capmembers.com/cap_university/level_i_foundations_course.cfm
That looks like an online course to me. Other than the BS courses that have been added in the past few years that link is the bulk of lvl1.
I taught at SLS last weekend, and specifically asked the students what their Level 1 training was like. There was absolutely no consistency in how squadrons introduce new members to CAP. One wing staffer in attendance swore that Level 1 was completed on-line and had no idea that a Form 11 was submitted to NHQ.
There's a good chance that Foundations is the only time many members will be instructed on customs & courtesies and uniforms. So, if we're doing a crappy job, and it appears that we are, how can we expect members to get it right?
Quote from: EMT-83 on February 21, 2011, 03:33:07 AM
So, if we're doing a crappy job, and it appears that we are, how can we expect members to get it right?
That is the question isn't it? I wish I had an answer.
Quote from: EMT-83 on February 21, 2011, 03:33:07 AM
I taught at SLS last weekend, and specifically asked the students what their Level 1 training was like. There was absolutely no consistency in how squadrons introduce new members to CAP. One wing staffer in attendance swore that Level 1 was completed on-line and had no idea that a Form 11 was submitted to NHQ.
There's a good chance that Foundations is the only time many members will be instructed on customs & courtesies and uniforms. So, if we're doing a crappy job, and it appears that we are, how can we expect members to get it right?
On the cadet side, the first steps (Curry and Arnold) involve D&C with a Drill test for several of the achievements. Lots of good leadership training is given and practiced. But that is mandatory for promotion and advancement.
On the senior side, this is not so. Most seniors might bring in prior information or culture from Military service, ROTC or common knowledge on such matters...but it is NOT mandatory and, thus, it is not stressed. That would account for the lack of consistency.
The question coming on this horizon here is..."What level of this should be taught?" I have known many people unwilling to do drill and ceremonies and others that want it as part of every meeting. A second question might be..."Should we add basic drill to Senior Training?"
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 21, 2011, 03:39:45 AM
Quote from: EMT-83 on February 21, 2011, 03:33:07 AM
I taught at SLS last weekend, and specifically asked the students what their Level 1 training was like. There was absolutely no consistency in how squadrons introduce new members to CAP. One wing staffer in attendance swore that Level 1 was completed on-line and had no idea that a Form 11 was submitted to NHQ.
There's a good chance that Foundations is the only time many members will be instructed on customs & courtesies and uniforms. So, if we're doing a crappy job, and it appears that we are, how can we expect members to get it right?
On the senior side, this is not so. Most seniors might bring in prior information or culture from Military service, ROTC or common knowledge on such matters...but it is NOT mandatory and, thus, it is not stressed. That would account for the lack of consistency.
The question coming on this horizon here is..."What level of this should be taught?" I have known many people unwilling to do drill and ceremonies and others that want it as part of every meeting. A second question might be..."Should we add basic drill to Senior Training?"
Please note it was a MAJOR in CAP that caused the National letter to be written. I fail to see what is gained by having senior members march around in circles. Even the AF after basic training (maybe also at technical school) has little (likely no) marching -- There may be some standing formations BUT anything more than that would require retraining & practice.
Please remember we are the CIVIL Air Patrol. Likely much of the problems are caused by personnel that are recruited into CAP that are wanna bees for various reasons and somehow take on the role in their minds as being what they consider as being equal to a "military officer", which unfortunately may negatively affect CAP overall. Fortunately, this doesn't happen that often in this overt of a manner, BUT I have heard about uninvited CAP senior members showing up at base functions dressed in their AF blue uniforms, and some high ranking military personnel have wondered why they were there :-[
RM
Luckily these happenings are rare. Let's just train our people to know better than this and ensure that it doesn't happen, and if it does happen, ensure that it is taken care of before it hits this point. If there is someone that you feel may not be prepared to enter into the military's area of operations by themselves, just ensure that you have someone go with them into those areas until you are confident in their professionalism.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on February 21, 2011, 04:51:18 AM
Please note it was a MAJOR in CAP that caused the National letter to be written. I fail to see what is gained by having senior members march around in circles. Even the AF after basic training (maybe also at technical school) has little (likely no) marching -- There may be some standing formations BUT anything more than that would require retraining & practice.
Correctly executed, good D&C training (which, for seniors, should probably be more "C" than "D") is not "marching around in circles." Nobody is suggesting that seniors learn more than fairly rudimentary D&C nor have any requirement really to continue to march about following Level I.
However, its been my experience that taking the time to teach your seniors the basic elements of D&C, especially those that have direct pertinence to the ongoing duties of a senior (reporting, standing in formation correctly, saluting, including the when, where and who of saluting) pays back dividends both in terms of the professional competence of your officers and the manner in which they are perceived by both our military colleagues and their fellow members.
Thats not a supposition, by the way. Its based on direct observation of officer professional development over several years as a unit commander (2 the first time, 5 the second time, 2 the third time), time spent as both a group senior programs officer and a wing cadet programs officer, and about 28 years in a CAP uniform overall.
Marching around in circles accomplishes nothing. Teaching your officers how to both report and be reported to, how to leave and return to ranks, how to get into and stand in formation, and both training and practical experience in the exchange of courtesies is
not marching in circles.
QuotePlease remember we are the CIVIL Air Patrol. Likely much of the problems are caused by personnel that are recruited into CAP that are wanna bees for various reasons and somehow take on the role in their minds as being what they consider as being equal to a "military officer", which unfortunately may negatively affect CAP overall. Fortunately, this doesn't happen that often in this overt of a manner, BUT I have heard about uninvited CAP senior members showing up at base functions dressed in their AF blue uniforms, and some high ranking military personnel have wondered why they were there :-[
Certainly, this can be a problem. Frankly, I think that issues like this are correctable with better, consistent training for new members. Not less. Not powerpoints. Not "online" training.
Used to be that Level I was six months long (no, I'm not talking about the "waiting period" between joining and pinning on 2Lt), and comprised a 4-ish hour long "orientation course" and "cadet protection training" just as part of that six month period.
In my experience, many units took that four hour orientation course as an "absolute."
As in "absolute maximum we need to do."
Whereas, other units took it as a starting point, a place where officer learning could be assessed, questions answered, a road map laid out. Where Level I, while formally comprising an orientation course and cadet protection training, also was several months of additional training, one-on-one mentoring and additional exposure to the "culture" of Civil Air Patrol.
I think the more CAP attempts to cut corners, make the training "more accessible" to people who can't or won't commit the time to participate, the more incidents like this you'll hear about.
And if you cut corners on this, the simple stuff, what other corners are being cut in the hundreds of units out the field?
The Civil Air Patrol does a pretty good job with Cadet Training by the way the Cadet Program is structured. I think it would be great if NHQ, CAP/USAF and whoever else would take a long look at the Senior Professional Development Program. Cadets I see are aware of what is expected of them. We do Level I online now which is cheaper. Senior Members go through a training program that more often does not involve the mentorship where an experienced CAP Leader guides them. If trained well the Senior Member would more likely consider what Cadets, the Public and the Military see when the member represents the Civil Air Patrol.
I think this may be good to talk about in a different thread, but have you looked at the Organizational Excellence Program? It's designed to supplement the Professional Development Program, and cultivate leadership in CAP at all levels.
And the foundation of this whole program is mentorship.
Check it out and see if your Wing has a program running if you're interested in participating.
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/OE_Announcement_162431602899A.pdf
Quote from: Ed Bos on February 25, 2011, 03:24:37 AM
I think this may be good to talk about in a different thread, but have you looked at the Organizational Excellence Program? It's designed to supplement the Professional Development Program, and cultivate leadership in CAP at all levels.
And the foundation of this whole program is mentorship.
Check it out and see if your Wing has a program running if you're interested in participating.
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/OE_Announcement_162431602899A.pdf
Thanks for sharing that. I guess my point is that if the baseline Professional Development Program were upgraded it would be less likely that a Senior Member would have things that misunderstood and go do what the AF Magazine Forum commenter said happened.
Level 1 is fine the way it's currently structured.
The failure is squadrons treating it like an on-line course and not providing mentoring.
Quote from: EMT-83 on February 25, 2011, 03:46:02 AM
Level 1 is fine the way it's currently structured.
The failure is squadrons treating it like an on-line course and not providing mentoring.
Let's also not forget...this is not a Level 1 issue. The individual in question held the grade of Major, which absent a small number of professional appointments, means they completed Levels 1-3 of the PD program.
^ Agreed, this is not something Level 1 or OE is going to fix.
Agreed, the person in question (hopefully) is far beyond Level 1.
However, comments posted in this thread hint towards a failure in how we train our members in uniforms and customs & courtesies. Rather than writing a new PD program, why don't we just properly implement the existing program?
^ Again I agree 100% - executed close to the text, everything most of us whine and complain about discuss regularly is already addressed, including the authority for diciplinary action when the lights go out.
The problem is that by the time you filter out commanders who...
1) don't care / can't be bothered
2) care but have never opened a reg
3) care, know the regs, but don't want to have uncomfortable conversations
4) etc.
...that leaves a fairly small percentage of members in positions of authority who know the program and have the where-with-all to train people
properly and enforce our rules.
Add to that members who think they can come and go as they please and make things up as they go along, and one does not need a flowchart to
see how we got where we are.
This isn't made any easier when people do lights-out things and instead of just addressing the person, we "spare feelings" by addressing the "issue" and adding one more generalized training or "reminder" to the already deafening background noise that interferes with our actual mission.
In the original case cited, I would have:
If the person who did it cannot be identified - sent a heartfelt apology to the base commander and a 3000psi memo to the local commanders
that hold the likely suspects, but also treated it with a few grains of salt.
If the person were identifiable, then suspend them pending an investigation, and suggest that they be demoted at least one click as a lesson,
still send a an apology to the base commander and the person who was affronted, but left it private from there.
Further to this, you can draw a pretty straight line from the mountain of administrative nonsense that our commanders and staff have to deal with
to the lack of leadership and mission-focused activity at the unit and member level.
Simply put, despite the recent rise in numbers, most functional squadrons have about the same number of members today that they had ten years ago,
yet the amount of paperwork they need to deal with just to keep the doors open has at least doubled.
So you have the same resources dealing with double the administration overhead, which leaves 1/2 the time (and 1/3 the G-A-S factor) to actually do what they joined for.
SUI's, real property survey's, AE plans of action, safety survey's, etc., all just someone's checkbox for a report no one pays any attention to, anyway, yet
increases the workload of the commanders and staff, to no mission advantage whatsoever.
None.
So why not delegate C&C and other member-centric (as opposed to unit-centric) issues to a DC or to the DCS & DCC?
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 25, 2011, 06:25:38 PM
So why not delegate C&C and other member-centric (as opposed to unit-centric) issues to a DC or to the DCS & DCC?
Why would the Director of Comms do that?
(I know smartypants).
See above, seriously - the staffers are in the same boat, and in many cases only names on a page. I'd be willing to bet that the units with
the most issues in this regard also have the fewest names on the command roster.
Quote from: JeffDG on February 25, 2011, 01:55:37 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on February 25, 2011, 03:46:02 AM
Level 1 is fine the way it's currently structured.
The failure is squadrons treating it like an on-line course and not providing mentoring.
Let's also not forget...this is not a Level 1 issue. The individual in question held the grade of Major, which absent a small number of professional appointments, means they completed Levels 1-3 of the PD program.
I don't disagree that this is not specifically a Level I issue, but I think you can easily draw the line from faulty initial training to this kind of thing happening later in someone's "career". You build a house on a shaky foundation and who knows what happens to it later on.
Could this be a "shake & bake" major who got some sort of professional appointment and was able to bypass much of Level II & III? Maybe.
Could this be an indication that Professional Development in this specific wing is sorely lacking from Level I consistency on up to the content and conduct of SLS & CLC? Perhaps.
My point is: we don't get better and more consistently trained officers by reducing the training to powerpoints, online slides, etc. Level I should not be a "one and done" training event, yet it gets treated that way by the majority of units I've ever seen.
(I was lucky: the last unit I commanded, I had a PDO who was a retired ARNG Major, and he was serious about PD. We adhered to both the letter & the spirit of the regulations. And we went a lot further than that to ensure that our people were adequately trained and mentored, not just "powerpointed.")Lets face it: teaching customs and courtesies to folks who have never been in the military can't easily be done with text and lecture. It requires practical exercises, repetition, situational opportunities, etc. And people teaching who understand it themselves.
Frankly, I think the PD program in CAP ain't all that great. When I went to region staff college, about 50% of the curriculum was material that really should have been seen by officers a LOT earlier in their professional development. Folks preparing to move from Major to Lt Col shouldn't be spending a half hour on uniform inspections every morning (although, sadly, we have to, I think), or having to be taught communication & team work concepts. Thats company-grade stuff. Field grade officers, especially at a "Region Staff College," should be getting much higher level training in corporate leadership subjects, wing and region level issues, etc.
(An aside: I spent about 10 years in one wing in the northeast, and in those 10 years, at the wing level, PD never really got the level of command interest or emphasis placed on it that I saw in other wings.
I mean, SLS & CLC courses were conducted, sure. Whatever it took to check the "minimum requirements" so that the wing wouldn't draw fire during the next IG inspection. But they were conducted like "two days you gotta do at wing HQ." not "Good professional development training you can use." I can't tell you how many times an SLS or CLC would be scheduled, never mentioned at commander's call until three weeks beforehand, and then canceled or postponed due to lack of interest.
Seniors in my unit would say to me "What is SLS all about?" I'd pretty much recite the 50-18 definition of the program and explain why its important, required for Level II, etc. And then I'd say "Here's when the next wing scheduled SLS is. Do a little research on the Internet and see if one of our neighboring states are running one before then, and if you can swing it, I highly recommend going to SLS outside of the wing."
In those 10 years, I think we had an "actually assigned and doing the job" wing professional development officer for maybe a year or two, but most of day-to-day TTN/PDO type work, scheduling, shagging down course directors & instructors for SLS, etc, had been done by the wing administrator.
In 2004, when I was about to finish my first tour as squadron commander, my wing commander and I were chatting in the hospitality suite at the wing conference, and the question of what I wanted to do after I was done at the squadron came up.
At the time, I saw a real gap in senior training in the wing and felt there was a lot more we could be doing to raise the level of professionalism in the senior member corps in the wing. I had a whole boat load of ideas about things I could do for senior training, leveraging a lot of the things like I'd done for cadet training in the wing in two prior tours as the wing director of cadet programs.
So I said "I really want to do senior training. I want to do for the senior side of the wing what I did for the cadet program as the CP." And I went on to outline some ideas, etc.
The wing commander sat there for a second and then said "Well, would you be interested in being the assistant ES officer?"
So, uh, yeah... Suffice to say, I didn't bother to rejoin wing staff after my stint at the squadron. Clearly, there was zero interest from the commander of doing anything to bolster the professional development of 1/2 of the membership...)
Quote from: JeffDG on February 25, 2011, 01:55:37 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on February 25, 2011, 03:46:02 AM
Level 1 is fine the way it's currently structured.
The failure is squadrons treating it like an on-line course and not providing mentoring.
Let's also not forget...this is not a Level 1 issue. The individual in question held the grade of Major, which absent a small number of professional appointments, means they completed Levels 1-3 of the PD program.
Another likely possibility is that this person is one who wears the golf shirt uniform on a regular basis and has had any C&C that they actually learned atrophy because of disuse over the years. We shouldn't be surprised that saluting practices are so spotty across CAP when it is entirely possible to spend a significant portion, or even your entire career, in a uniform where you are not required to salute anyone (though some others still might salute you). And it is only getting worse as more members choose this uniform over others, whether because they want to avoid saluting issues, get the cheapest uniform available, or just don't want to mess with the sewing involved in the military-style uniforms, or for comfort.
The biggest "threat" to a CAP that knows and understands C&C isn't our training programs -- it is the golf shirt.
I prefer the Golf Shirt when with CAP at an event where we are hosted at a Military Base. I wear the Aviator Shirt and BBDU to other CAP events and encounter National Guard and USAF who are civil and professional when we have occasion to speak. Over 9 years in 3 Wings I have had one maybe two rude encounters with lower ranking AF enlisted men while I was in BDUs. My reaction was to disengage to avoid an unwinnable outcome where Cadets could be in the audience. I do not expect to be saluted by Military folks but have been saluted and have had occasions where I would walk in and the group would come to attention at which point I would say "good morning, as you were" , and then move on. When saluted I always return the salute quickly. Most Cadets salute me except for an occasional higher ranking Cadet who refuses to salute even though the other Cadets do.
Quote from: RiverAux on February 26, 2011, 03:23:30 PM
The biggest "threat" to a CAP that knows and understands C&C isn't our training programs -- it is the golf shirt.
I've never heard it phrased that way, but I see your point. There is no way to recognise rank with it.
It is probably the most "civilianised" (yes, I
know we're civilians) of the CAP-distinctive uniforms. Much as I personally dislike it, the white/grey is worlds more military-looking than the golf shirt.
As much as I hate this happening, I accept that the CSU is going out, so there has
got to be a way to have a decent headgear for the G/W.
Since there is no grey garrison-type cap that I can find available, unless we get lucky and buy up a stock of old East German ones (they are exactly the same shade of grey as CAP shoulder marks), the best option I could see is to go for another colour, like khaki, or something like the US Military Academy cap:
(http://www.bernardcap.com/caps/thumbnails/oldAcademy/academy3.jpg)
I have never worn the golf shirt and don't see myself ever doing so. In my experience, the main (but not exclusively) ones doing so were the
flying clubs senior squadrons I've belonged to and observed who just wear that to be in compliance with uniform regs when flying CAP aircraft.
However, I've been a member of composite squadrons where some of the members wore it...but not exclusively.
I would also say that standardised outergarments like the black sweater (doesn't have to be the Army one, there's loads of civilian made ones) would be good for the g/w.
QuoteThe biggest "threat" to a CAP that knows and understands C&C isn't our training programs -- it is the golf shirt.
QuoteIt is probably the most "civilianised" (yes, I know we're civilians) of the CAP-distinctive uniforms. Much as I personally dislike it, the white/grey is worlds more military-looking than the golf shirt. As much as I hate this happening, I accept that the CSU is going out, so there has got to be a way to have a decent headgear for the G/W.
QuoteI have never worn the golf shirt and don't see myself ever doing so. In my experience, the main (but not exclusively) ones doing so were the flying clubs senior squadrons I've belonged to and observed who just wear that to be in compliance with uniform regs when flying CAP aircraft.
Ding, ding, ding - time to move this to the uniform section.p.s. I agree we need a suitable headgear option for the aviator shirt/grey slacks. I'm not much into the baseball cap.
Uh, uniforms and saluting are intrinsically linked to each other.
Quote from: RiverAux on February 27, 2011, 04:03:15 AM
Uh, uniforms and saluting are intrinsically linked to each other.
Gotta go with river on this, if the member had not been in uniform, this would have never happened.
Just a thought. For those that can only wear the Aviators, start practicing the C&C's . Practice them at training events off military installations. Practice them at training events that both include and don't include cadets. Practice them in public view. The maybe the "custom" will spread (pun intended).
Respectfully,
Quote from: RiverAux on February 26, 2011, 03:23:30 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on February 25, 2011, 01:55:37 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on February 25, 2011, 03:46:02 AM
Level 1 is fine the way it's currently structured.
The failure is squadrons treating it like an on-line course and not providing mentoring.
Let's also not forget...this is not a Level 1 issue. The individual in question held the grade of Major, which absent a small number of professional appointments, means they completed Levels 1-3 of the PD program.
Another likely possibility is that this person is one who wears the golf shirt uniform on a regular basis and has had any C&C that they actually learned atrophy because of disuse over the years. We shouldn't be surprised that saluting practices are so spotty across CAP when it is entirely possible to spend a significant portion, or even your entire career, in a uniform where you are not required to salute anyone (though some others still might salute you). And it is only getting worse as more members choose this uniform over others, whether because they want to avoid saluting issues, get the cheapest uniform available, or just don't want to mess with the sewing involved in the military-style uniforms, or for comfort.
The biggest "threat" to a CAP that knows and understands C&C isn't our training programs -- it is the golf shirt.
I still firmly believe in the idea that if you are not wearing a hat, you should not be saluting.
I learned it that way a long time ago, and it relieves a lot of confusion when in place as a policy.
Quote from: SarDragon on February 27, 2011, 07:36:54 AM
I still firmly believe in the idea that if you are not wearing a hat, you should not be saluting.
Unless reporting to a superior officer indoors.
That is one reason I brought up a suggestion for suitable headgear for those not wearing the AF uniform.
Quote from: SarDragon on February 27, 2011, 07:36:54 AM
I still firmly believe in the idea that if you are not wearing a hat, you should not be saluting.
I learned it that way a long time ago, and it relieves a lot of confusion when in place as a policy.
Dave,
Your Navy-ness is showing. ;)
Wow this is so laughable, that again the thread turns into a uniform thread OR some silliness about lack of more customs & courtesy training, or driving many miles to attend a course, etc, etc, etc, ;D >:(
The bottom line is we bring in and retain some goofy adults in the program :-[ No amount of training is going to change that "goofness". Retention decisions will just have to be made when these rare incidents occur.
I'm always on patrol looking for CAP'ers that are violating the uniform wear or c&c in their dealings with actual military personnel on our base. Bottom line is we are the CIVIL Air Patrol, and members need to remember that when dealing with ANYONE external to the organization, but especially the military :angel:
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on February 27, 2011, 02:31:51 PM
Wow this is so laughable, that again the thread turns into a uniform thread OR some silliness about lack of more customs & courtesy training, or driving many miles to attend a course, etc, etc, etc, ;D >:(
The bottom line is we bring in and retain some goofy adults in the program :-[ No amount of training is going to change that "goofness". Retention decisions will just have to be made when these rare incidents occur.
I'm always on patrol looking for CAP'ers that are violating the uniform wear or c&c in their dealings with actual military personnel on our base. Bottom line is we are the CIVIL Air Patrol, and members need to remember that when dealing with ANYONE external to the organization, but especially the military :angel:
RM
HEY!! A little respect please, Im right here! >:D
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on February 27, 2011, 02:31:51 PM
Wow this is so laughable, that again the thread turns into a uniform thread OR some silliness about lack of more customs & courtesy training, or driving many miles to attend a course, etc, etc, etc, ;D >:(
The bottom line is we bring in and retain some goofy adults in the program :-[ No amount of training is going to change that "goofness". Retention decisions will just have to be made when these rare incidents occur.
I'm always on patrol looking for CAP'ers that are violating the uniform wear or c&c in their dealings with actual military personnel on our base. Bottom line is we are the CIVIL Air Patrol, and members need to remember that when dealing with ANYONE external to the organization, but especially the military :angel:
RM
I haven't gotten a response yet, from the chain of command, on my question on the actual incidents that have occurred. But your last quote, "Bottom line is we are the
CIVIL Air Patrol, and members need to remember that when dealing with ANYONE external to the organization, but especially the military", will get us in hot water. Unlike how it was framed in the National Commander's letter, your framing has a connotation of, if we are civilians. why do we need to salute. Going back and looking over Respect on Display (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P151_9028588D89DD2.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P151_9028588D89DD2.pdf)), alot of the stuff is common sense courtesy I remember growing up as a kid. Proper mentoring and standard use, of the customs of this organization, not creating bipolar conditions in members will fix this problem, actual or insinuated.
Respectfully,
It's really simple:
If you are trolling for salutes - you're wrong.
If you fail to salute military officers wth higher grade than you - you're wrong.
If you take the time to explain to a servicemember that they don't need to salute you - you're wrong.
If you sharply return the salute - you're right.
If you do not worry about servicemembers saluting you - you're right.
According to the National Commander, not everyone is getting it. In general terms, some people don't get K.I.S.S. Sometimes, slow mentoring is needed.
Quote from: arajca on February 28, 2011, 01:36:57 AM
It's really simple:
If you are trolling for salutes - you're wrong.
If you fail to salute military officers wth higher grade than you - you're wrong.
If you take the time to explain to a servicemember that they don't need to salute you - you're wrong.
If you sharply return the salute - you're right.
If you do not worry about servicemembers saluting you - you're right.
Quote from: FARRIER on February 28, 2011, 01:31:18 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on February 27, 2011, 02:31:51 PM
Wow this is so laughable, that again the thread turns into a uniform thread OR some silliness about lack of more customs & courtesy training, or driving many miles to attend a course, etc, etc, etc, ;D >:(
The bottom line is we bring in and retain some goofy adults in the program :-[ No amount of training is going to change that "goofness". Retention decisions will just have to be made when these rare incidents occur.
I'm always on patrol looking for CAP'ers that are violating the uniform wear or c&c in their dealings with actual military personnel on our base. Bottom line is we are the CIVIL Air Patrol, and members need to remember that when dealing with ANYONE external to the organization, but especially the military :angel:
RM
I haven't gotten a response yet, from the chain of command, on my question on the actual incidents that have occurred. But your last quote, "Bottom line is we are the CIVIL Air Patrol, and members need to remember that when dealing with ANYONE external to the organization, but especially the military", will get us in hot water. Unlike how it was framed in the National Commander's letter, your framing has a connotation of, if we are civilians. why do we need to salute. Going back and looking over Respect on Display (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P151_9028588D89DD2.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P151_9028588D89DD2.pdf)), alot of the stuff is common sense courtesy I remember growing up as a kid. Proper mentoring and standard use, of the customs of this organization, not creating bipolar conditions in members will fix this problem, actual or insinuated.
Respectfully,
For me being a real retired military officer, I'm always getting saluted by those security forces guys & gals that man the entrance gates, so I DO KNOW HOW to give a smart salute back and also talk with them as they check my ID card. Some of them I know on sight because I read the base on line base newspaper and IF they've won an award or were mentioned for something they've done good, I will congratulate them. I think it makes them feel good when some old retired officer actually knows what is going on.
Hey IF I'm going to CAP many times I tell them that also :o.
The way I see this issue it's a matter of respecting EVERYONE and treating EVERYONE the way YOU want to be treated. Frankly I'd be VERY angry if some CAP member caused an issue on our support base, especially with a saluting type incident.
I don't think National will provide any specifics on the incident involved, BUT again I feel there's other issues with uniform wear, especially the AF type, that needs to be addressed via a policy reminder.
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on February 28, 2011, 03:13:22 AM
Quote from: FARRIER on February 28, 2011, 01:31:18 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on February 27, 2011, 02:31:51 PM
Wow this is so laughable, that again the thread turns into a uniform thread OR some silliness about lack of more customs & courtesy training, or driving many miles to attend a course, etc, etc, etc, ;D >:(
The bottom line is we bring in and retain some goofy adults in the program :-[ No amount of training is going to change that "goofness". Retention decisions will just have to be made when these rare incidents occur.
I'm always on patrol looking for CAP'ers that are violating the uniform wear or c&c in their dealings with actual military personnel on our base. Bottom line is we are the CIVIL Air Patrol, and members need to remember that when dealing with ANYONE external to the organization, but especially the military :angel:
RM
I haven't gotten a response yet, from the chain of command, on my question on the actual incidents that have occurred. But your last quote, "Bottom line is we are the CIVIL Air Patrol, and members need to remember that when dealing with ANYONE external to the organization, but especially the military", will get us in hot water. Unlike how it was framed in the National Commander's letter, your framing has a connotation of, if we are civilians. why do we need to salute. Going back and looking over Respect on Display (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P151_9028588D89DD2.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P151_9028588D89DD2.pdf)), alot of the stuff is common sense courtesy I remember growing up as a kid. Proper mentoring and standard use, of the customs of this organization, not creating bipolar conditions in members will fix this problem, actual or insinuated.
Respectfully,
For me being a real retired military officer, I'm always getting saluted by those security forces guys & gals that man the entrance gates, so I DO KNOW HOW to give a smart salute back and also talk with them as they check my ID card. Some of them I know on sight because I read the base on line base newspaper and IF they've won an award or were mentioned for something they've done good, I will congratulate them. I think it makes them feel good when some old retired officer actually knows what is going on.
Hey IF I'm going to CAP many times I tell them that also :o.
The way I see this issue it's a matter of respecting EVERYONE and treating EVERYONE the way YOU want to be treated. Frankly I'd be VERY angry if some CAP member caused an issue on our support base, especially with a saluting type incident.
I don't think National will provide any specifics on the incident involved, BUT again I feel there's other issues with uniform wear, especially the AF type, that needs to be addressed via a policy reminder.
RM
AGREED. As a retired military officer, however, please keep in mind that the reason why we are the CIVIL Air Patrol is because that was how we were initially organized under the Office of Civil Defense. The name has stayed even after the various presidential executive orders and federal laws that have impacted on the organization over the years.
I do wonder how much different our organization would have been if we had been initially organized similar to the Coast Guard Auxiliary. Afterall, they were initially organized as the Coast Guard's Reserve.
Either way, you are correct that it is and remains a matter of respect...on both sides.
Quote from: arajca on February 28, 2011, 01:36:57 AM
It's really simple:
If you are trolling for salutes - you're wrong.
If you fail to salute military officers wth higher grade than you - you're wrong.
If you take the time to explain to a servicemember that they don't need to salute you - you're wrong.
If you sharply return the salute - you're right.
If you do not worry about servicemembers saluting you - you're right.
If you take the time to explain to a servicemember that they don't need to salute you-you're wrong... why is that wrong?
Quote from: JK657 on February 28, 2011, 04:09:16 PM
Quote from: arajca on February 28, 2011, 01:36:57 AM
It's really simple:
If you are trolling for salutes - you're wrong.
If you fail to salute military officers wth higher grade than you - you're wrong.
If you take the time to explain to a servicemember that they don't need to salute you - you're wrong.
If you sharply return the salute - you're right.
If you do not worry about servicemembers saluting you - you're right.
If you take the time to explain to a servicemember that they don't need to salute you-you're wrong... why is that wrong?
Just return the salute smartly and move on...no need to get into the discussion. Simply accept the show of respect.
That's an option but I don't see how "you're wrong" if you educate military members. People on here constantly complain about Air Force members not knowing about CAP but this scenario would give you an opportunity to engage someone and educate them about CAP and you say its wrong to do so?
Quote from: JK657 on February 28, 2011, 04:16:03 PM
That's an option but I don't see how "you're wrong" if you educate military members. People on here constantly complain about Air Force members not knowing about CAP but this scenario would give you an opportunity to engage someone and educate them about CAP and you say its wrong to do so?
OK, but the Active Duty member is not doing anything wrong by saluting. There is no regulation prohibiting them from saluting CAP members, just as there's no regulation requiring them to do so. You'd be opening up a can-of-worms for no good reason.
It's possible the person rendering the salute is fully aware that he's not required to, yet chooses to out of respect. Your attempt at "educating" him could be seen as patronizing and condescending.
Quote from: JeffDG on February 28, 2011, 04:22:07 PMIt's possible the person rendering the salute is fully aware that he's not required to, yet chooses to out of respect. Your attempt at "educating" him could be seen as patronizing and condescending.
Not to mention stopping to chat when they are just trying to get somewhere... like to lunch.
Quote from: JK657 on February 28, 2011, 04:16:03 PM
That's an option but I don't see how "you're wrong" if you educate military members. People on here constantly complain about Air Force members not knowing about CAP but this scenario would give you an opportunity to engage someone and educate them about CAP and you say its wrong to do so?
Tell them about our mission, volunteer service, and the nearest place to join.
Suggest he not salute CAP members?
Never.
Ever.
Do that.
Ever.
The military already provides clear instruction that salutes are optional. Who are you to decide to "fix" the situation?
You also have no idea the collateral damage that causes, especially if the person intended to salute CAP, or in situations
where people start "filtering" and get themselves in trouble with a military officer.
Return the salute and move on.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 28, 2011, 05:48:54 PM
The military already provides clear instruction that salutes are optional. Who are you to decide to "fix" the situation?
You also have no idea the collateral damage that causes, especially if the person intended to salute CAP, or in situations
where people start "filtering" and get themselves in trouble with a military officer.
You know...stopping and telling him that he doesn't need to salute is incredibly condescending. You're essentially telling him that he doesn't know what he's doing. Military members are free to salute CAP members if they feel it appropriate to do so. Since they're not doing anything wrong, it's not our place to instruct them on C&C.
Like so many here have said
"When a member of the armed forces salutes a CAP Officer, salute, state the greeting of the day with a smile and move on."
It's the best PR we can all do when associating with our brothers and sisters in the military.
The next best thing is wearing our uniforms correctly everywhere we go for CAP.
Oh, for those f you that don't know the "Greeting of the Day" generally is:
"Good Morning Sir", "Good Afternoon Sir" or "Good Evening Sir"
Render the salute if required.
Return the salute if given.
Be nice.
Move on.
Speaking of "moving on"...... ::)
Hash
Rehash
Grumble grumble grumble
Rehash
Grumble grumble grumble
People are idiots grumble grumble
Rehash
Grumble grumble
Rehash
Rehash
Rehash
Grumble grumble...
Does that about cover it for this topic?
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on February 28, 2011, 08:15:15 PM
Hash
Rehash
Grumble grumble grumble
Rehash
Grumble grumble grumble
People are idiots grumble grumble
Rehash
Grumble grumble
Rehash
Rehash
Rehash
Grumble grumble...
Does that about cover it for this topic?
That, sir, is the most concise summary I've seen in some time. I salute you...is that appropriate? >:D
Well played...
Quote from: FW on February 28, 2011, 08:12:13 PM
Speaking of "moving on"...... ::)
That was my intent. The horse is well and truly dead.
10 pages worth?????????