Okay, everbody acknowledges that there are quite a few CAP officers who do not wear the uniform correctly. Either they don't care or more likely, were never really taught how to do it right. Nobody generally bothers to correct them because they're worried about being seen as a nitpicking jerk. Squadron commanders are generally focused on bigger issues and are usually too busy to deal with this and are generally hesitant to correct folks for fear of driving people away. It is obvious the current system does not work well or consistently.
The only way I see to address this issue is to make a regulation that requires that squadrons hold a minimum number of in-formation uniform inspections during regular meetings each year. Perhaps on a monthly basis. The cadets probably already exceed this requirement, but it is sorely needed for officers. Not only would this force people to pay attention to the issue it would actually help us out a little bit by teaching officers how to get in formation and practice some minimum military discipline.
And just to pre-empt that one person who says this in any thread involving a uniform issue --- Yes, I know this isn't super critical to CAP and the world won't end because of this problem, but it is something we need to deal with.
Yes. There is nothing wrong with expecting people to follow regulations. I think many people see the uniforms (especially the corporate/distinctive uniforms) as just something to wear, but they forget that there are actually regulations governing the wear of said uniforms.
Uniform inspections would hold everyone accountable for wearing correctly whatever uniform option they choose to wear. It is not much to ask, and it only improves our reputation and also provides a good example for cadets.
For example, I just got back from my Wing's Cadet Conference, and there is one senior member who is known for his tough attitude and ability to intimidate people. He spent the entire weekend wearing the polo/gray slacks combo along with an unbuttoned BDU blouse and a RealTree hunting hat.
Needless to say, nobody corrected him due to fear they would be chewed out due to his reputation for less-than-friendly personality when people confront him. So, our wing's cadets got great exposure to the mindset of "I'm above the regulations."
The proposed uniform inspections you mention could only help things. I really don't see a downside except that those who don't like to wear the uniform properly will no longer be able to do so, and might actually have to spend *gasp* a few minutes before each meeting making sure their uniform is properly assembled.
If a 12-year-old C/Amn can do it, surely a fully-grown adult can too.
Yes. Why not?! About once per quarter or so, we take a portion of our weekly meeting and allocate to a uniform "class" for officers. The proper wear of the uniform, along with customs and courtesies, are reviewed. All questions are addressed. It's a good idea.
I don't see a universal need for it. For example, in my unit, I am the unofficial uniform nit-picker. I look over each SM (and cadet) during the meetings. I will mention any flaws I see on the side to seniors or to the cadet commander for cadets. However, I do not get the ruler out and measure insigna placement. I try to remind all cadets and seniors that after being pinned, they will need to double check the insignia placement before the next meeting, but we do not expect them to check it at the meeting they get pinned at.
I don't usually find violations.
Sure why not.
On the other hand....CAP uniforms are NOT required at senior only meetings, so you may not get much participation, but at cadet or composite meetings...definately.
I read a story on line, of which is can no longer find, about an army officer back in the late 1940s coducting and inspection of USAF personnel.
Some had basic Army Air Corps uniforms with Air Force Cheverons, some had Ike Jackets, some had Khaki undershirts, some blue undershirts, some bluer still undershirts, some had even other combos. In the end of the story the Army officer gave up in that it was fruitless.
Ahhh...The transition era, my late uncle told me all about it. Some of you blokes may have lived it.
Now, need I mention the problem with CAP uniforms?
No matter how many varients there are we should be setting an example to our cadets.
That being said I believe we as CAP officers should abide by the same routines we put the cadets through in regards to formation and inspections. I see nothing wrong with an inspection each month by the DCS when the cadets are being inspected. Lead by example is what I have been taught time and again.
In fact a huge issue that cadets have with officers, second only to the quality of our salutes, is the proper wear of uniforms. If we can't wear what ever uniform we decide to wear properly than how can we expect them to follow suit.
Just my .02, but something to chew on.
Yes. There is no excuse for an improper uniform.
I'm not weighing people at the door, but in nterms of mixing parts, insignia placement, etc., there is no excuse.
If you can't take the time to read 39-1, buy a golf shirt and move on.
If you can't wear a golf shirt properly, just move on...
It is the commander's responsibility to ensure his members are wearing their uniforms properly. It says so right in CAPM 39-1, para 1-2:
QuoteAll commanders will ensure that all members, individually and collectively, present a professional, well-groomed appearance, which will reflect credit upon CAP as the auxiliary of the United States Air Force. They will ensure all members are uniformed in accordance with the provisions of this manual, uniform violations are promptly corrected, and that members are continually informed as to the proper wear of the uniform.
So, it's already written in the regulations. How commanders implement this is really up to them, and in-formation uniform inspections are just one way to make that happen.
I disagree that they should be the
only way, which is basically what RiverAux is proposing. When I was a squadron commander, I inspected uniforms all the time, pretty much any time I looked at someone, I did a uniform once-over. I still do, it's a habit I can't break.
I understand and agree with the intent (making sure members wear their uniforms properly), but mandating formal inspections isn't the solution. Commanders who don't enforce uniform regulations now will probably just ignore the new requirement. Commanders who don't know the uniform regulations won't know what to look for in a formal inspection. Commanders who already abide by the regulations will probably find a mandated formal inspection to be an inconvenience.
So you'd essentially be punishing the people already doing things right, while having no effect on the offenders.
Of course! The cadets inspect their uniforms at every meeting. Whats good for the cadets is even better for the seniors in this repect. If USAF sees us policing our ranks better, this will bode better for uniform issues in the future when put before HQ USAF
Quote from: Major Carrales on December 12, 2006, 07:33:53 AM
I read a story on line, of which is can no longer find, about an army officer back in the late 1940s coducting and inspection of USAF personnel.
Some had basic Army Air Corps uniforms with Air Force Cheverons, some had Ike Jackets, some had Khaki undershirts, some blue undershirts, some bluer still undershirts, some had even other combos. In the end of the story the Army officer gave up in that it was fruitless.
Ahhh...The transition era, my late uncle told me all about it. Some of you blokes may have lived it.
Now, need I mention the problem with CAP uniforms?
I didn't "Live it," since I was just a little soldier then. But try renting "The Big Lift" from your video store. It is a docudrama about the Berlin Airlift with all parts (Except the major stars) played by real G.I.'s or German nationals. It shows pretty well the transition in the uniforms, as well as a glimpse of the lifestyle of the post war and band-new US Air Force. It would be great for a meeting night, too. There is a love story, but no skin.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 12, 2006, 07:13:53 AM
On the other hand....CAP uniforms are NOT required at senior only meetings, so you may not get much participation, but at cadet or composite meetings...definately.
Are you sure about that?
Quote from: CAPM 39-1 Table 1-1. Wearing the CAP Uniformwhen engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local,
wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1).
Doesn't say
Optional.
Anyone who doesnt want to wear the uniform needs to leave. Uniforms should be required at all meetings.
Quote from: LtCol White on December 12, 2006, 04:30:49 PM
Anyone who doesnt want to wear the uniform needs to leave. Uniforms should be required at all meetings.
My read of Table 1-1. is that they are. This might be different than was previously in CAPM 39-1, but it's probably why they added the CAP Distinctive Basic Uniform in the latest revision.
Quote from: LtCol White on December 12, 2006, 04:30:49 PM
Uniforms should be required at all meetings.
Absolutely! ...and as MIKE points out, I believe they are.
I wish we had those kinds of issues. Most of the Senior Members that come to our Squadron meetings wea the blue shirt and grey slacks. I am trying to get them to wear military uniforms more since we have cadets and I want them to set the example.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 12, 2006, 06:49:13 PM
I wish we had those kinds of issues. Most of the Senior Members that come to our Squadron meetings wea the blue shirt and grey slacks. I am trying to get them to wear military uniforms more since we have cadets and I want them to set the example.
It's the same way for us. I can only think of two senior members in our composite squadron that wear the Air Force style uniforms. The problem for us lies more in when we go to wing-wide events, often they will pull out AF style uniforms from apparently the bottom of their closets and don't worry about ironing them or placing the right insignia in the right place. They just put on the wrong things and go!
I think these inspections could really help set an example. There really can be no harm done.
Quote from: CAP428 on December 12, 2006, 07:04:31 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 12, 2006, 06:49:13 PM
I wish we had those kinds of issues. Most of the Senior Members that come to our Squadron meetings wea the blue shirt and grey slacks. I am trying to get them to wear military uniforms more since we have cadets and I want them to set the example.
It's the same way for us. I can only think of two senior members in our composite squadron that wear the Air Force style uniforms. The problem for us lies more in when we go to wing-wide events, often they will pull out AF style uniforms from apparently the bottom of their closets and don't worry about ironing them or placing the right insignia in the right place. They just put on the wrong things and go!
Ack!! Time to padlock the coffee maker and bring out the clue-by-four.
Quote from: Psicorp on December 12, 2006, 08:00:45 PM
Ack!! Time to padlock the coffee maker and bring out the clue-by-four.
What does that mean? Sorry, ;D I don't understand.
Here's my take on the whole situation. We mandate thru regulations that we must wear the uniform properly and in accordance with CAPM-39-1. So we have a mandate that says members are to wear the uniform properly, and it tells us how the uniform should be worn.
then further in CAPM 39-1 it also says "ALL Commanders WILL (key word) ensure that all members, individually, and collectively, present a professional, well groomed appearance, which will reflect credit upon CAP as the Auxiliary of the United States Air Force. They will ensure all members are uniformed in accordance with the provisions of this manual, uniform violations are promptly corrected, and that members are continually informed as to the proper wear of the uniform." further in section 1-1 it says "COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY" The problem I see is not that we don't have any regulations governing this stuff, it's that we have no teeth in the regulations to enforce it. I personally don't see any lee way for Commanders getting out of inspecting their units for proper uniform wear, Seems to me that you could have that Commander removed from office for failure to follow his duties. Not that we would ever see that happen, after all alot of squadrons are run like Boy Scouts with Airplanes and the regulations are treated as guidance but not orders. We NEED a stronger regulation that spells out the commanders duty and directs them how to carry out that duty.
If we placed a directive to the unit commanders to have uniform inspections monthly and we placed it on the group commanders to make sure it was done then maybe we might get it done. The problem unfortunately is that there are MANY commanders who have NO CLUE how to wear a military uniform to CAP/USAF standards (I'm talking about ALL uniforms)....but they could certainly get a good cadet senior NCO or Officer to teach them and show them.
As a former cadet officer, I know how to wear the uniform but sometimes I may make a mistake and I would love the feedback from an inspection. Having these kinds of formal uniform inspections along side the cadet uniform inspections would hold us as Officers accountable not only to our Commander but to our cadets. So yes, lets do it. Lets police ourselves before they send someone in to police us.
A really good OTS for new officers would help with this problem greatly!
just my .02 cents, for what it's worth.
You make good points, but how do you enforce this? I understand what the regs say, but what do you do if a member doesnt pay attention to the regs? They will continue to say "This is a volunteer organization" and I hate it when they say that. So how do you enforce it? You cant take any pay or forbid them from participating in activities. SO, what do you do?
Well, the first time they violate a uniform reg (like wearing unauthorized combos or something, not just having insignia an 1/8th of an inch off skew or anything) you can say, "Next time you come to a CAP meeting/event/whatever, you need to wear the proper uniform."
If next time they show up and it's still wrong, you offer them a last warning: "Wear the uniform properly or you will not be allowed to participate."
And if heaven forbid they do show up a third time w/o being in compliance, you tell them they must either change clothes or leave.
I can think of one way to enforce it: My school has a nice box of not-quite-fashionable and not-quite-so-well fitting garments that were left at school and stuff for those that violate dress code. You could get a similar collection of donated/old clothes and if all the above things do not get them to change, you can tell them to wear the clothes in the box or go home. [Note: since uniform wear is required during CAP activities, you will probably rarely actually need to force someone to wear them, since they wouldn't be able to actually actively participate in civilian clothes anyway. If your option is wear the box of clothes or go home, they will probably go home and arrive in proper uniform the next time.]
In other words, only being firm and stubborn will solve it. It is simple. If they are not in proper uniform compliance, they may not participate. Just as if they didn't have a CAPID or something like that.
Limit their options, and they are more likely to comply.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 12, 2006, 10:37:37 PM
So how do you enforce it? You cant take any pay or forbid them from participating in activities. SO, what do you do?
Sure you can! "If you are not in an appropriate uniform...you will be asked to leave."
It is as simple as that.
If you see a member not wearing his uniform properly (either in a formal inspection of at any meeting) you tell him what needs to be corrected and tell him you expect it is correct the next time you see him or you will ask him to leave.
Quote from: CAP428 on December 12, 2006, 11:02:24 PM
I can think of one way to enforce it: My school has a nice box of not-quite-fashionable and not-quite-so-well fitting garments that were left at school and stuff for those that violate dress code. You could get a similar collection of donated/old clothes and if all the above things do not get them to change, you can tell them to wear the clothes in the box or go home. [Note: since uniform wear is required during CAP activities, you will probably rarely actually need to force someone to wear them, since they wouldn't be able to actually actively participate in civilian clothes anyway. If your option is wear the box of clothes or go home, they will probably go home and arrive in proper uniform the next time.
Take a minute and think about what you're suggesting. Are you really suggesting that members not in the proper uniform should wear one from "a nice box of not-quite-fashionable and not-quite-so-well fitting garments"? How does that fix the problem?
Most SUIs (Subordinate Unit Inspections, conducted by Group or Wing) include an inspection of ALL personnel.
Perhaps in the context of preparing for that event, a periodic uniform inspection might be worthwhile.
Also, consider a periodic 'uniforms, customs & courtesies review' for senior members only....open the floor to questions, have some one knowledgeable but not condescending lead the session
QuoteI disagree that they should be the only way, which is basically what RiverAux is proposing.
I didn't say that a formation of officers where uniforms would be inspected was the only way to do it. What I said was that the current regulation, which as was pointed out, requires commanders to ensure compliance, isn't working.
This is like saying that it is required that CAP members fly safely but then not specifying how squadrons and Wings should make sure this happens.
Yes, a real squared away CAP commander would probably not need this prod, but it it is obvious that these are not all that common, at least in regards to uniform wear.
In cadet squadrons this can easily be accomplished by having the seniors in formation getting inspected at the same times the cadets are. With composite squadrons in which all officers and cadets meet on the same night, they could also take care of it in this fashion. I'm sorry the say, the problem probably mostly lies with senior squadrons or in composite squadrons in which the cadets and officers meet on different nights.
Yes, the wearing of the golf shirt is becoming more and more prevelant (I have even started wearing one every now and again) and I'm not sure what to do about that. Not a lot to inspect there.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 12, 2006, 11:48:49 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 12, 2006, 10:37:37 PM
So how do you enforce it? You cant take any pay or forbid them from participating in activities. SO, what do you do?
Sure you can! "If you are not in an appropriate uniform...you will be asked to leave."
It is as simple as that.
If you see a member not wearing his uniform properly (either in a formal inspection of at any meeting) you tell him what needs to be corrected and tell him you expect it is correct the next time you see him or you will ask him to leave.
That sounds great, but if I did that I would never see them again and we are talking about most members in my unit
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 13, 2006, 04:38:50 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 12, 2006, 11:48:49 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 12, 2006, 10:37:37 PM
So how do you enforce it? You cant take any pay or forbid them from participating in activities. SO, what do you do?
Sure you can! "If you are not in an appropriate uniform...you will be asked to leave."
It is as simple as that.
If you see a member not wearing his uniform properly (either in a formal inspection of at any meeting) you tell him what needs to be corrected and tell him you expect it is correct the next time you see him or you will ask him to leave.
That sounds great, but if I did that I would never see them again and we are talking about most members in my unit
I hate to be the one that says this, but if the member will not wear a uniform correctly to the specified regulation then maybe they don't need to be a member.
Regulations and manuals are there for a purpose, they are the guidelines as to how this organization works. They are very much like employee handbooks of private sector corporations, you don't abide by the employee handbook and are unwilling to correct your actions you get fired.
Just because this is a volunteer organization doesn't give someone the right to forgo the regulations. I personaly dislike the excuse of "I'm a volunteer, what can they do, fire me?" Quick answer,
YES!!! If it gets to that point simply note all discussions and if it comes to it ask the member to not come back untill they have corrected the infraction. The reason you note these discussions is so there is documentation of what was said jsut in cas the member gets froggy and decides to take the "legal" route. I dearly hope no one ever has to go through that great amount of work just to get someone to wear thier uniform correctly.
Being a volunteer means I am freely giving my time to assist in the mission of this organization and will follow all rules and guidelines set forth by said organization.
Again just my .02
Quote from: carnold1836 on December 13, 2006, 01:51:54 PM
I hate to be the one that says this, but if the member will not wear a uniform correctly to the specified regulation then maybe they don't need to be a member.
Regulations and manuals are there for a purpose, they are the guidelines as to how this organization works. They are very much like employee handbooks of private sector corporations, you don't abide by the employee handbook and are unwilling to correct your actions you get fired.
Just because this is a volunteer organization doesn't give someone the right to forgo the regulations. I personaly dislike the excuse of "I'm a volunteer, what can they do, fire me?" Quick answer, YES!!! If it gets to that point simply note all discussions and if it comes to it ask the member to not come back untill they have corrected the infraction. The reason you note these discussions is so there is documentation of what was said jsut in cas the member gets froggy and decides to take the "legal" route. I dearly hope no one ever has to go through that great amount of work just to get someone to wear thier uniform correctly.
Being a volunteer means I am freely giving my time to assist in the mission of this organization and will follow all rules and guidelines set forth by said organization.
Again just my .02
x2!
Quote from: A.Member on December 13, 2006, 02:40:38 PM
Quote from: carnold1836 on December 13, 2006, 01:51:54 PM
I hate to be the one that says this, but if the member will not wear a uniform correctly to the specified regulation then maybe they don't need to be a member.
x2!
x3
Quote from: carnold1836 on December 13, 2006, 01:51:54 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 13, 2006, 04:38:50 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 12, 2006, 11:48:49 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 12, 2006, 10:37:37 PM
So how do you enforce it? You cant take any pay or forbid them from participating in activities. SO, what do you do?
Sure you can! "If you are not in an appropriate uniform...you will be asked to leave."
It is as simple as that.
If you see a member not wearing his uniform properly (either in a formal inspection of at any meeting) you tell him what needs to be corrected and tell him you expect it is correct the next time you see him or you will ask him to leave.
That sounds great, but if I did that I would never see them again and we are talking about most members in my unit
I hate to be the one that says this, but if the member will not wear a uniform correctly to the specified regulation then maybe they don't need to be a member.
Regulations and manuals are there for a purpose, they are the guidelines as to how this organization works. They are very much like employee handbooks of private sector corporations, you don't abide by the employee handbook and are unwilling to correct your actions you get fired.
Just because this is a volunteer organization doesn't give someone the right to forgo the regulations. I personaly dislike the excuse of "I'm a volunteer, what can they do, fire me?" Quick answer, YES!!! If it gets to that point simply note all discussions and if it comes to it ask the member to not come back untill they have corrected the infraction. The reason you note these discussions is so there is documentation of what was said jsut in cas the member gets froggy and decides to take the "legal" route. I dearly hope no one ever has to go through that great amount of work just to get someone to wear thier uniform correctly.
Being a volunteer means I am freely giving my time to assist in the mission of this organization and will follow all rules and guidelines set forth by said organization.
Again just my .02
x4
And, just to back that up.
1) "It IS a volunteer organization. You're free to voluntarily join, and you're free to voluntarily quit. At no other time are you free to do whatever you want unless you want me as your commander to voluntarily kick you the hell out."
2) Of course warn your people a month in advance that you'll be starting this & taking it seriously, including the range of penalties that WILL be used. It doesn't have to be a 1st/2nd/3rd violation kind of thing, just a range & a concept of how quick it can move to the bad end. And do those refresher classes (that's a good idea) 15-30min a night for that month. Then get down to business.
3) You'll go with the take those blue slides off blue shirt phase first, then go home & we'll see you next time with it right, then take a week off to think about what you're doing here & if you're willing to live by the rules or not, THEN you're talking about restricting people on to formal suspension for a period, and really once they've repeatedly refused to comply with orders to follow regs then you're starting into 2b territory, which is a threat I'd never oull out.
By the way, we're starting something... we're going to do formal inspections first two nights of the month - opening, then cadets open ranks & run their inspection, seniors lined up on the side (colors just went up) stay in line & get looked over by Sq CC. I don't even care if it helps the quality of their uniforms, I like that cadets see them being inspected even though they can't hear or see what's being said/done. That shared experience I think makes a difference. Now, since we're doing it, that will also give the commander the chance to broach the subject with people that have been a problem (I wasn't kidding about blue slides on a blues shirt, w/ an enlisted flt hat too - oh & one time w/a confederate kepi).
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 13, 2006, 04:38:50 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 12, 2006, 11:48:49 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 12, 2006, 10:37:37 PM
So how do you enforce it? You cant take any pay or forbid them from participating in activities. SO, what do you do?
Sure you can! "If you are not in an appropriate uniform...you will be asked to leave."
It is as simple as that.
If you see a member not wearing his uniform properly (either in a formal inspection of at any meeting) you tell him what needs to be corrected and tell him you expect it is correct the next time you see him or you will ask him to leave.
That sounds great, but if I did that I would never see them again and we are talking about most members in my unit
Well, there you go. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you think enforcing uniforms standards are going to hurt your squadron...you have to make the call. We are a volunteer organization we have no other recourse to enforce our standards except to say...if you don't tow the line...then you can't play.
Oh, I agree with you totally. I dont think folks take so seriously to warrent legal action though, its not worth the costs. They will just leave and not come back. And there lies the problem. We already have a recruiting problem, so wher edo we draw the line between doing the right theng and retaining our members? Hey, You all know I am straight up military so I am all about following the regs, but when you deal with civilain volunteers it can get kind of scetchy.
Plus, I am not the Commander. I cant make the final decisoion (although I wish I could) and the commander is an elderly guy that wants to make noce with everybody
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 13, 2006, 03:31:59 PM
Oh, I agree with you totally. I dont think folks take so seriously to warrent legal action though, its not worth the costs. They will just leave and not come back. And there lies the problem. We already have a recruiting problem, so wher edo we draw the line between doing the right theng and retaining our members? Hey, You all know I am straight up military so I am all about following the regs, but when you deal with civilain volunteers it can get kind of scetchy.
That is the nub of the problem. How seriously are you going to take the uniform reg? The bottom line though...is that you (the commander) sets the tone. You let your members know what is expected of them and then you enforce it. If you piss off a bunch of your members and they quit...you are just going to have to bite that bullet if/when it comes.
You simply can't have it both ways.
I don't know about you guys, but I've never seen a recruiting problem in CAP. I can throw people out left & right & it seems like they'll replace themselves w/ zero effort on our part just as fast. The only reason I actually recruit is to get a batch of cadets at one time rather than regular strgglers spread over the quarter. The problem we have is retention, and I don't want to retain people that litterally cannot follow insptructions after multiple attempts to get them to comply with regs. I teach cadets that they learn drill, in order to learn things like discipine & bearing, which in turn mean professionalism & skill, which in turn mean the differecen between someone getting hurt or killed in the field or not. The same is true of uniforms. If they refuse to follow the reg & blatantly flaunt that fact, what about when it's a silly little safety reg, or flight checklist item that's never mattered before? There's a reason we do the things we do the way we do them, get with that or get out - if they leave then you'll get a darwinian sort of process to a more squared away looking unit, either wy you're going to get there. If I'm going to have a retention problem, I might as well get some good out of it.
By the way folks, there's a whole range of options before making people leave or not come to a meeting... take off the offending item if possible, simplly telling them what's wrong, reminding them that it's again wrong & they need to fix it, explaining WHY it is important to comply w/ regs & this one especially, explain the range of more serious options you're about to get into if thay don't straighten up. You see just telling people there's a problem & it won't be tolerated is the biggest step. I doubt very seriously it'd ever come to pushing someone out.
Proper uniform wear and use is MANDITORY!!! There is no almost right or close enough when it comes to image. Image is everything in CAP. I am not talking about uniforms only, but the image that you project to the public by our actions and ideas. The uniform is an extension of this image. We would not allow someone who is knowing stealing items from the local WalMart to remain in CAP because it would project a bad image of our morale character. And yes we would all be judged by what another member does!!
I am not talking about holding an open ranks inspection and acting like a DI (TI-AF). Hold your inspections politely but firmly inform them of their errors and move on. Holding uniform classes would also help teach them how to. 39-1 is not a tuff read by any means, and it even has pictures. So if you don't have former or current military members, it is all right there.
I have been in squadrons that are 95% military and one that was just me being fromer AF. Surprisingly there were more uniform violations with the military than with that one little squadron. The non military squadron had the desirer to want to do right and it showed. When I first arrived there I guessed by the way they performed and looked they were all former military. Addressing each other by grade and last name, proper customs and curtices, and uniform wear. Again it is all about image and self respect!!!
When you look, are treated, and act like a CAP officer you will be a CAP officer. Once again image is everything.
Hello All,
We have members who are often coming straight to the meeting from another meeting and have been running all day. I'm the squadron commander so I budget my time to allow a quick change into something "CAP" but the fact is that sometimes my Ground Team Leader has just parked his CAT and jumped right off....One of my Mission Pilots is a real estate agent and has been showing homes. The majority follow my lead, but sometimes the decision has to be, "Do I go to the meeting in jeans and work shirt or not?". Of course I want them to come to the meeting.
I got dinged last month for showing up at a SAR wearing my green flight suit, nomex jacket and a two-week beard. (Chief, I know that you are reading this :) ) My zipper on the blue flight suit is busted and the decision to grow a beard was a result of a little good natured ribbing from some of the folks at work but I was flying our little red/white/blue aircraft on a actual mission with a two-week growth of beard on my face. Now you know as well as I do that the decision to not allow beards in the military has more to do with gas-mask seals and regulators than anything else, but the rule is the rule. There was not an issue made of the beard at the time, we had a job to do. I did have an e-mail in the in-box later that night reminding me that facial hair and the military style uniform is a no-no :o
The most vocal opponents of the uniform wear comes from my former military folks that wore one at work every day and now prefer to not wear one if they don' t have to.....same goes for the ribbons. They'll say, "Spend the money and buy me a beer instead....I don't want to look like a Panamanian Dictator." Down here on the coast we are pushing for a Bermuda shorts/flowery shirt combination with the stick-on HELLO, MY NAME IS tags.
Semper vi, y'all.
Stephen
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 13, 2006, 03:31:59 PM
Oh, I agree with you totally. I dont think folks take so seriously to warrent legal action though, its not worth the costs. They will just leave and not come back. And there lies the problem. We already have a recruiting problem, so wher edo we draw the line between doing the right theng and retaining our members? Hey, You all know I am straight up military so I am all about following the regs, but when you deal with civilain volunteers it can get kind of scetchy.
Where do we draw the line on keeping someone that refuses to wear a uniform correctly. The first action we need to do is find out why the member is haveing difficulty wearing the uniform of their choice in a way that is wrong. Are they incapable for some reason? Are they ignorant and need training? Are they Lazy? Do they just don't care? Find out help them fix the issue, if they are willing. If they aren't willing then they don't need to be here and show them the door. As DNall pointed out, if they can't/won't follow this regulation what other regs are they going to cut corners on.
If they don't care/lazy I say good ridance. We don't have a recruiting problem, we have a retention problem. Personaly I am tired of seeing bloated membership levels. We can't go to NHQ with the claim of retention when close to 25% or more of the "active" membership roster is people that don't show or are a hazzard because they refuse to work with in the regs and guidlines, which is just as bad. I know that wearing the uniform improperly isn't hazardous but it just shows that the member is possibly not willing to follow safety regs as well.
If we have to get rid of dead weight then so be it. If it cuts into our membership numbers, so be it. If it makes NHQ see taht there other issues out there besides uniform options, great.
Sometimes you have to prune a tree for it to grow new life, sometimes that pruning is drastic. I say lets get pruning and get on with Civil Air Patrol growing new life and becoming healthy once again.
Quote from: Hotel 179 on December 13, 2006, 04:08:44 PM
Hello All,
We have members who are often coming straight to the meeting from another meeting and have been running all day. I'm the squadron commander so I budget my time to allow a quick change into something "CAP" but the fact is that sometimes my Ground Team Leader has just parked his CAT and jumped right off....One of my Mission Pilots is a real estate agent and has been showing homes. The majority follow my lead, but sometimes the decision has to be, "Do I go to the meeting in jeans and work shirt or not?". Of course I want them to come to the meeting.
That is understandable, as long ss it is the exception and not the rule. By no means am I saying kick the sorry SOB out because he showed up right after work and din't get a chance to run home and change. Just don't make it a every meeting thing.
QuoteI got dinged last month for showing up at a SAR wearing my green flight suit, nomex jacket and a two-week beard. (Chief, I know that you are reading this :) ) My zipper on the blue flight suit is busted and the decision to grow a beard was a result of a little good natured ribbing from some of the folks at work but I was flying our little red/white/blue aircraft on a actual mission with a two-week growth of beard on my face. Now you know as well as I do that the decision to not allow beards in the military has more to do with gas-mask seals and regulators than anything else, but the rule is the rule. There was not an issue made of the beard at the time, we had a job to do. I did have an e-mail in the in-box later that night reminding me that facial hair and the military style uniform is a no-no :o
In my opinion this was handled in the proper fasion. Should you have shaved before going since you knew your blue nomes was not operational, sure but you made a decsion not to an were reprimanded accordingly. This doesn't seem to be an on going situatin with you so who ever sent you the notice noted it and went on.
QuoteThe most vocal opponents of the uniform wear comes from my former military folks that wore one at work every day and now prefer to not wear one if they don' t have to.....same goes for the ribbons. They'll say, "Spend the money and buy me a beer instead....I don't want to look like a Panamanian Dictator."
I can understand there hesitance to put the monkee suit back on, but if they want to serve here in CAP they
HAVE to abide by the regulations. It is their choice to serve, but it is not there choice to not wear the uniform. As for the ribbons if I'm not mistaken those are optional on the AF/Aviator shirt only uniform and as for the AF/Corp service coat I belive it states some or all, correct me if I'm wrong.
QuoteDown here on the coast we are pushing for a Bermuda shorts/flowery shirt combination with the stick-on HELLO, MY NAME IS tags.
Semper vi, y'all.
Stephen
Personaly I'm all for it put me in as a yes vote. With the understanding that it is used as a "garrison" uniform when not handling missions or dealing with cadets.
An idea about not having time is keeping a uniform in your car. I have a flight suit in the back of my car for the moments notice of a SAR. My gear is there as well. Unless you change your meeting night every week, then you know when and where it is. So have your uniform with you in your car and change when you get there. I can't imagine that it would take more that 10 mins to change. If you are proactive then you never have to react to the unseen circumstances.
Quote from: carnold1836 link=topic=1152.msg14622#msg14622Personaly I am tired of seeing bloated membership levels. We can't go to NHQ with the claim of retention when close to 25% or more of the "active" membership roster is people that don't show or are a hazzard because they refuse to work with in the regs and guidlines, which is just as bad. I know that wearing the uniform improperly isn't hazardous but it just shows that the member is possibly not willing to follow safety regs as well.
If we have to get rid of dead weight then so be it. If it cuts into our membership numbers, so be it. If it makes NHQ see taht there other issues out there besides uniform options, great.
Sometimes you have to prune a tree for it to grow new life, sometimes that pruning is drastic. I say lets get pruning and get on with Civil Air Patrol growing new life and becoming healthy once again.
I agree. The focus should be on quality, not quantity.
I also have no concerns about a reduction in membership levels - quite the opposite actually. I worry we attract too many people that truly aren't committed - some comments in this thread illustrate that point. Quite frankly, that's not what's needed. We could use a little RIF of our own - or "pruning" as it was stated.
As for not wearing a uniform to a meeting, there really is no excuse - whether cadets are there or not. This requires an absolute minimum amount of effort. If a person can't do that, then perhaps they really need to be asked why they're here. Those that aren't interested in wearing a uniform and just want to fly can start their own flying club or SAR group - there are a lot of other organizations out there.
BTW, our comp. squadron has ~70 members (+/- a few) with average weekly meeting attendance in the ~60%+ range. With the exception of 2 members, everyone wears the USAF-style uniform - "legally". It's a concept we continually reinforce and ultimately something we take pride in. With the rare exception of an occasional visitor, we never see those lame golf shirts (which represent the very minimum standard for adherence).
Quote from: mmouw on December 13, 2006, 04:56:54 PM
An idea about not having time is keeping a uniform in your car. I have a flight suit in the back of my car for the moments notice of a SAR. My gear is there as well.
Hello Again,
It's not an issue with us....most of the members wear the golf shirt/slacks combination for the meetings unless we are doing an outdoor activity.
I've had a couple of back messages regarding the bermuda shorts and sticky name tag....everyone is all for it. When it shows up in CAPR39-1, remember you heard it here first.
Semper vi, y'all.
Stephen
I personally think the more we nitpick on things like uniforms, the more of a standard we will set in all things, as Lt. Arnold and Dnall pointed out, if you slack off in one thing what else are you willing to slack off in??
excellence is attained thru attention to detail, and attention to details is first taught at the more relatively minor things like uniforms and the spacing of ribbons, badges so forth. If we maintain a high standard in every aspect, we will follow thru with that high standard in all other aspects...including our personal and professional lives outside of CAP. We are what we become.
Yes, CAP is a volunteer organization but all that means is that CAP is not providing your monetary income, it doesn't mean that it needs to be or should be treated any different then your professional job or even the Military. I'm a volunteer at my job, I volunteered to apply for it, I volunteer to go in every day and I can also choose to volunteer to leave...I can walk into my Chiefs office any day I choose and lay down my gun, badge and ID card and walk out. fact is we are all volunteers in all we do. it's time we treat CAP as a Professional organization versus the "volunteer" organization that some people choose to treat it as. If they can't or will not follow our procedures and our regulations then Yes, do what Chris and DNall said and FIRE them! We will gain the respect of more people by being willing to ENFORCE our rules and regulations and getting rid of those who willfully choose to not follow them.
Quote from: DrJbdm on December 13, 2006, 05:21:38 PM
I personally think the more we nitpick on things like uniforms, the more of a standard we will set in all things, as Lt. Arnold and Dnall pointed out, if you slack off in one thing what else are you willing to slack off in??
That is not necessarily true. You may let some slide on a uniform issue but still jump down his throat on a safety issue.
Just because if don't think one thing is important does not mean you think all things are not important.
Quote from: DrJbdm on December 13, 2006, 05:21:38 PMexcellence is attained thru attention to detail, and attention to details is first taught at the more relatively minor things like uniforms and the spacing of ribbons, badges so forth. If we maintain a high standard in every aspect, we will follow thru with that high standard in all other aspects...including our personal and professional lives outside of CAP. We are what we become.
No...excellence is attained by getting the job done. This is a nit pick...but it is possible to get so bogged down in the minor details that you fail to complete the mission.
This is not to say attention to detail is NOT important but that with out completing your mission....it does not matter how well you have crossed your t's and dotted your i's.
Quote from: DrJbdm on December 13, 2006, 05:21:38 PMYes, CAP is a volunteer organization but all that means is that CAP is not providing your monetary income, it doesn't mean that it needs to be or should be treated any different then your professional job or even the Military. I'm a volunteer at my job, I volunteered to apply for it, I volunteer to go in every day and I can also choose to volunteer to leave...I can walk into my Chiefs office any day I choose and lay down my gun, badge and ID card and walk out. fact is we are all volunteers in all we do. it's time we treat CAP as a Professional organization versus the "volunteer" organization that some people choose to treat it as. If they can't or will not follow our procedures and our regulations then Yes, do what Chris and DNall said and FIRE them! We will gain the respect of more people by being willing to ENFORCE our rules and regulations and getting rid of those who willfully choose to not follow them.
Good point. We are free to quit at anytime and we are free to ask those who don't follow the rules to quit.
On the other hand (just to play the devils advocate)....in relation to uniforms....is it really worth it?
As I said before....excellance begins in completing the mission. If (and that is a big if) your uniform enforcement policy starts to force out your members....can you continue to meet your mission requirements? On that same thread....what you are wearing is not going to make fly any better or worse. Focusing on the mission is our primary concern. Getting the job done.
Now...having said that...CAP has more missions than just flying. We also have individual missions as CAP members. One of them is presenting a good public image and a good professional image to our ES peers. Uniforms help us with that mission.
So...we got some ex army guy who just has to wear his Combat Infantryman's Badge (which I believe is not authorized) do we loose what ever skills he brings to the table for a badge?
On the other hand...we got a guy who just does not wear any uniform (corporate or USAF) to any meetings or ES function. A much grosser violation of both the letter and spirit of the regulation. Do we loose his skills just for a uniform (or lack there of).
Again, we like to see things in black and white but it just ain't so. We have hard and fast rules and we have some not so hard and fast ones.
We are not the military and we can't punish people other than sending them home, but we still have to get the mission done.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 13, 2006, 07:25:53 PM
So...we got some ex army guy who just has to wear his Combat Infantryman's Badge (which I believe is not authorized) do we loose what ever skills he brings to the table for a badge?
Just a quick note, the CIB is one of the military badges that can be worn on the AF style uniform.
I do understand your point about mission accomplishment though. We don't want to get so hung up on the details that we miss the big picture. We don't want to find out someone has died when we arrive five minutes too late because the team wasn't allowed to leave until Officer Joe repositioned his rank insignia properly.
At normal meetings though, is the time to notice the details.
QuoteSo...we got some ex army guy who just has to wear his Combat Infantryman's Badge (which I believe is not authorized) do we loose what ever skills he brings to the table for a badge?
I for one am not going to tell the individual that ERANED the CIB he can't wear it because it's not specifically stated he can. I will fall back on the reg that refers to ribbons and being awarded by a competent military body or some such thing and say he can wear it.
QuoteOn the other hand...we got a guy who just does not wear any uniform (corporate or USAF) to any meetings or ES function. A much grosser violation of both the letter and spirit of the regulation. Do we loose his skills just for a uniform (or lack there of).
Try to find out what his objection to wearing the uniform is. As for ES missions (AF assigned mission number) he is REQUIRED to wear the uniform in accordance to CAPM 39-1 to be covered under insurance. As for meetings the rgulations state a uniform must be worn during any CAP activity. So he can come to the meeting wearing the uniform, even the (dreaded by me) golf shirt/ gray slacks combo and contribute or he can come to the meeting not wearing a uniform but do nothing.
Yes, getting the mission done and having it done right is the most important issue...However that being said, everything plays into the next. If you make a concerted effort to make your uniform correct and wear it in a manner that is sharp and professional and you mandate that same standard and enforce it, well the details you put into that small aspect will work it's self into the next aspect...everything is linked together. The guy on the mission who is the most capable is probably the same guy who wears his uniform sharply. We train people to that mission level competence by first getting them focused on the smaller things, it's a building process. Sometimes seemingly unrelated items are actually related.
Will some people leave CAP because we make them wear a military style uniform (TPU or AF) to the same standards as the military? sure they will. But will others join because of it? of course. The point here is to maintain good order and discipline and those are things that are very much a part of any mission...and yes, correct and sharp uniform wear is a big part of it. it's all interrelated.
My opinion on uniforms?? ditch the Golf shirt (unless your going golfing, then give me a call!!) ditch the gray slacks/white shirt combo (can't stand that uniform) and stick with the AF style and the white shirt/blue AF pants (TPU?) both of those uniform combos are sharp, both look close enough to create uniformity, and the standards for wear are the same...except for weight. And if you can't meet the grooming standard then I think the golf shirt is OK, I kinda like it better then the white shirt/Grey slacks thingy anyway... just my opinion and not really the topic of this discussion.
Either way, uniforms are required, are there limited exceptions for meetings?? sure..sometimes we come right from work and we forget our uniform..it's the exception rather than the rule... I think we are all talking about the people who on a regular basis fail to meet the standard. Those are the people who need to be addressed and addressed quickly. If you let it slide, it will only get worse and the whole unit will suffer for it. have one standard and enforce it, anything less is unacceptable.
Quote from: shorning on December 12, 2006, 11:56:11 PM
Take a minute and think about what you're suggesting. Are you really suggesting that members not in the proper uniform should wear one from "a nice box of not-quite-fashionable and not-quite-so-well fitting garments"? How does that fix the problem?
Oh, I know exactly what I'm suggesting. And yes, it would work. It does in school, and CAP is really no different.
Perhaps you misunderstood; the Box is not full of uniform items, it is full of clothes like the free giveaway NASCAR t shirts and ugly ripped jeans.
Trust me, most members would
much rather go home and properly assemble their uniform than have to wear the clothes from the Box. It would work, and it would fix the problem. In other words, this system works because it assumes people have a certain level of pride. And the vast majority of people would rather wear a uniform properly than be told to take off a uniform and substitute it with crappy, 10-XL tshirts.
Once again, limit their options (ugly tshirt, or neatly-arranged uniform) and they are much more willing to comply. It would work, and I yes, I know what I'm suggesting.
CAP is vastly different then school. We are not some young High school junior whom can be told to change clothes into these "rags" We're (or at least supposed to be) professionals and you would never see such a thing as a box of clothes in main stream corporate America. My wifes law Firm doesn't have such a box and my brother in laws corporation doesn't have such a box, I don't see that working any better then asking them to simply go home and change. Thats what works in corporate America.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 13, 2006, 07:25:53 PMSo...we got some ex army guy who just has to wear his Combat Infantryman's Badge (which I believe is not authorized) do we loose what ever skills he brings to the table for a badge?
This surprises me,
lordmonar. This is in the manual. Civil Air Patrol Manual 39-1. The uniform manual.
For further reference: Page 116, Table 6-5, US Military Badges Authorized on CAP Service Uniforms and BDUs, Line 3, Combat Infantry or Army Medical Badge.
Why didn't you know that? Not a challenge, I'm legtimately wondering.
Second, if we educate people as to why we wear the uniforms, instead of just forcing compliance, we get a team. Not a bunch of conscripts. Same principle as leading a horse to water.
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 13, 2006, 09:18:47 PM
Why didn't you know that?
Because if he needed to know it, he would have looked it up. Not everyone has a copy of the reg open to the proper page when posting to an internet forum. Additionally, there are subtle differences between the Air Force and CAP uniform manuals.
Probably because the latest AFI 36-2903 is far more restrictive on wear of such badges.
Quote from: shorning on December 13, 2006, 09:23:02 PM...Not everyone has a copy of the reg open to the proper page when posting to an internet forum...
You're right! Why look something up and quote an authority when you can speculate wildly online! ::)
Chillax Eclipse.
Quote from: shorning on December 13, 2006, 09:23:02 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 13, 2006, 09:18:47 PM
Why didn't you know that?
Because if he needed to know it, he would have looked it up. Not everyone has a copy of the reg open to the proper page when posting to an internet forum. Additionally, there are subtle differences between the Air Force and CAP uniform manuals.
I see that point. But I'm hoping that he did not just tell the person that it wasn't unauthorized. And it's something that you can always tell someone that you'll look it up and get back to them.
This disturbs me somewhat because if that person read the manual later, and discovered that it was authorized, it will hurt that persons trust in you. I make a point of telling someone I will get back to them, unless I've recently something about in the reg and am sure of it.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 13, 2006, 09:25:57 PM
You're right! Why look something up and quote an authority when you can speculate wildly online! ::)
I wasn't talking about
your posting style...
Relax. Un-bunch your shorts. Go look for someone to 2b or something.
Two points:
1. As far as adult "Officers" are concerned, uniform wear is NOT mandatory except while directly administering the cadet program or flying in a CAP aircraft.
For the VAST majority of members it is wholly optional.
To wit, I suspect that members put out by the high-horse-i-ness of a unit commander demanding they stand for inspection would elect to either (a) "miss" the meeting when the inspection is to be held or (b) elect to wear civies. In either case "voting/vetoing with their feet" the inane policy. In short, it won't work, it can't work.
2. As a near 25 year veteran of CAP, VERY active in ES and operations (and an IC to boot) my observations (albeit anecdotal) lead me to conclude that an overwhelming majority of those who complain the loudest about professionalism and appearance in uniform are the LEAST adept at anything resembling operational competence.
I say let the "fashion/uniform nitpickers" enforce their petty tyrany --like Miss. Manners at a debutante tea party-- while the "real CAP" membership seeks to save lives and defend our borders.
To CAP as a whole, where uniforms are concerned, I say GROW UP.
I don't agree at all. It has been my experience that those not in uniform are usually there for one thing, flying. The 25 years that you have been in I am sure there have been many changes. In the 15 that I have been around for, the flying clubs have for the most part disappeared. What remains are the true CAPers that are there to help those in need and not to get low cost flying time. This has happened because of the revision in the publications that have given more responsibility to the members in all aspects of CAP.
Is it the end of the world if we don't all meet uniform standards, no but it does speak volumes about your professional image and that of ALL CAPers out there. So excuse me if I have standards that I will never waiver from in order to present CAP in the highest possible light. We wonder why the Air Force is distancing themselves from us, it is because we are to wrapped up in not doing something we were told we have to by the AF. If anyone needs to grow up, it would be those who stick their noses up in the air when it comes to all regulations including 39-1.
If you are in a Composite Squadron, then you are directly influencing the cadets, even if you don't think so. I have been a cadet guy since the beginning and I can tell you they don't have time or respect for someone who doesn't conform to the standards. It seems to be the Officer who needs the most help is the one who always sticks their nose in a cadet's face to question improper uniform issues. NOT ON MY WATCH!!!!
Quote from: davedove on December 13, 2006, 07:40:18 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 13, 2006, 07:25:53 PM
So...we got some ex army guy who just has to wear his Combat Infantryman's Badge (which I believe is not authorized) do we loose what ever skills he brings to the table for a badge?
Just a quick note, the CIB is one of the military badges that can be worn on the AF style uniform.
I do understand your point about mission accomplishment though. We don't want to get so hung up on the details that we miss the big picture. We don't want to find out someone has died when we arrive five minutes too late because the team wasn't allowed to leave until Officer Joe repositioned his rank insignia properly.
At normal meetings though, is the time to notice the details.
With due respect, we also don't want to have the CAP plane crash & there be no insurance coverage for the families because the member wore gray BDU pants w/ his golf shirt.
You don't show up with a cadet GT & & go run DnC in teh parking lot for an hour to test their attention to detail before you take them in the field. Back in garrison is the time & place to take care of attention to detail, then that officer won't show up to a mission in incorrect uniform & force the risk mgmt judgement call on the IC/GBD/AOBD about if they need to be sent home or not.
By the way, whoever that was talking about showing up to a SaREx w/ a two-week beard & green flt suit, I'd have made you shave or go home before you could sign in, AND would have some choice words for your commander - that's actually how I'd treat you for a real mission, being it's a SaREx that's the good mood treatment. If I'm having a bad day yuo might get the choice words direct from the source & sent home. There's no tolerance on that, especially when you can walk in the bathroom & fix it.
By the way, on the CIB & few other things, there's an issue on that. CAP regs say in a couple places that only badges auth on the AF uniform (ref AFI) are allowed. That's the directive from the AF. Then 39-1 gives a quick ref table that shows COB among others & was drawn from an interpreation base don the old AFI.
The older AFI was less restrictive. If I'm not mistaken, it said a longer list of badges earned w/ other services could be retained when no longer serving w/ that service. For instance, I knew a TACP guy serving as a recruiter who wore some Army stuff.
The official CAP interpretation at that time was that if there was any circumstance under which it would be allowed on an AF uniform then it was good to go for CAP.
Then the new AFI came along. It says a shorter list of badges are auth ONLY while serving with & drirectly attached to an Army (other service) unit, BUT they must be removed when you come back to the AF (even for a course over a certain duration).
So, the new official CAP interpretation is that those badges are NOT authorized for CAP because you are not in your capacity as a CAP member directly assigned under the command of an Army unit. The same thing applies to AF duty badges (cops, fire, etc) in which those badges are auth in the AF while serving in that capacity, which you are not doing as a CAP member.
It gets a little fuzzy on some things. Basically what they're saying right now is the chart in the reg is out of date, but if it lists it there then it is authorized until the reg is fixed, otherwise if it's open to interpretation then it's generally not auth.
Now should you tell that person they can't wear the badge & potentially lose them over it? Well that's rough, but you really can't be blackmailed into breaking regs because you're scared of losing people. I've seen Ranger & SF tabs that I won't say anything about cause I don't think I have the right to tell that person they can't wear it, but otherwise I'll mention it privately & show them the refs then leave it up to them. As long as it's not so freakin obvious as a CIB then it's not so bad. I'm much more worried about serious violations that harm CAP's image, endanger our insurance/liability coverage, and reflect an attention to detail and/or attitude toward regs that makes me think this person is dangerous to be around. I'm not sayin I don't have the fortitude to tell one of those guy to take off his tab & hold him to it, but I'd excercise my latitude to take care of the big problems & work my way toward the back of the list. To be honest, most people just don't know & really would do the right thing with just a little instruction. It's the ones that can't or won't that you need to worry about.
Quote from: Chaplaindon on December 13, 2006, 10:00:48 PM
Two points:
1. As far as adult "Officers" are concerned, uniform wear is NOT mandatory except while directly administering the cadet program or flying in a CAP aircraft.
For the VAST majority of members it is wholly optional.
That is not a true statement.
I'd suggest reviewing the remainder of 39-1, Table 1-1. Particularly applicable is the part that refers to wear of a CAP uniform:
"when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions".If you're feeling really ambitious, you could continue down to Section 1-5.
Quote from: Chaplaindon on December 13, 2006, 10:00:48 PMAs a near 25 year veteran of CAP, VERY active in ES and operations (and an IC to boot)...
Seems you really ought to know better.
QuoteOn the other hand...we got a guy who just does not wear any uniform (corporate or USAF) to any meetings or ES function. A much grosser violation of both the letter and spirit of the regulation. Do we loose his skills just for a uniform (or lack there of).
Yes. People should be cut slack every now and again for meetings, but not at ES functions.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 13, 2006, 07:25:53 PM
So...we got some ex army guy who just has to wear his Combat Infantryman's Badge (which I believe is not authorized) do we loose what ever skills he brings to the table for a badge?
IF I had the CIB (Or the CMB or CAB for that matter...or for that matter even the EIB and EMB), I would wear it. This is CAP, and I've seen it done. I know in the Air Force, you can only wear them when assigned to an Army unit, but I repeatedly see AF people in an AF unit wearing them, but that is the Air Force, not CAP. Even if CAP isn't supposed to wear the CIB or CMB or CAB or EIB or EMB, I'd back up whoever wore it! just my $0.02, here not trying to be an @$$.
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 13, 2006, 09:18:47 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 13, 2006, 07:25:53 PMSo...we got some ex army guy who just has to wear his Combat Infantryman's Badge (which I believe is not authorized) do we loose what ever skills he brings to the table for a badge?
This surprises me, lordmonar. This is in the manual. Civil Air Patrol Manual 39-1. The uniform manual.
For further reference: Page 116, Table 6-5, US Military Badges Authorized on CAP Service Uniforms and BDUs, Line 3, Combat Infantry or Army Medical Badge.
Why didn't you know that? Not a challenge, I'm legtimately wondering.
Second, if we educate people as to why we wear the uniforms, instead of just forcing compliance, we get a team. Not a bunch of conscripts. Same principle as leading a horse to water.
Because I don't know the manual chapter and verse. I should have substitude Naval Surface Warfare Badge or one of them not listed.
The point being....some earned badge that is not mentioned in the regulation.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 13, 2006, 09:25:57 PM
Quote from: shorning on December 13, 2006, 09:23:02 PM...Not everyone has a copy of the reg open to the proper page when posting to an internet forum...
You're right! Why look something up and quote an authority when you can speculate wildly online! ::)
Want to try that one again sir!
If you go back and look you will see I said I beleive...and your comments have nothing to do with the substance of my comment.
How would you handle it sir? What would you do if one of your people wore an unauthorized but earned badge on his uniform and refused to remove it?
Stay on topic instead of saying I am talking out of my ass please sir.
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 13, 2006, 09:35:35 PM
Quote from: shorning on December 13, 2006, 09:23:02 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 13, 2006, 09:18:47 PM
Why didn't you know that?
Because if he needed to know it, he would have looked it up. Not everyone has a copy of the reg open to the proper page when posting to an internet forum. Additionally, there are subtle differences between the Air Force and CAP uniform manuals.
I see that point. But I'm hoping that he did not just tell the person that it wasn't unauthorized. And it's something that you can always tell someone that you'll look it up and get back to them.
This disturbs me somewhat because if that person read the manual later, and discovered that it was authorized, it will hurt that persons trust in you. I make a point of telling someone I will get back to them, unless I've recently something about in the reg and am sure of it.
It was a hypothetical situation...and I would double check before I told them...or I would have prefaced my comments with..I'm not sure...but I think that's not authorised...are you sure it's okay to wear it? Would double check for me?
Not so hypothetical is the Combat Action Badge. The Army recently authorized the CAB for those soldiers who do not have an infantry or medical specialty, but who were in active combat. CAP regulations permit the other two combat badges, but do not mention this new badge.
This is one of those situations where common sense should come into play.
Regulations do not specifically PROHIBIT the CAB, and two of the three combat badges are authorized. It is apparent to me that the CAB will be authorized eventually, as soon as the CAP regs catch up with the changes in the Army's.
So... The CAB should be the same as my gray hair... You earned it, you wear it!
Quote from: lordmonar on December 14, 2006, 12:51:54 AM
Because I don't know the manual chapter and verse. I should have substitude Naval Surface Warfare Badge or one of them not listed.
The point being....some earned badge that is not mentioned in the regulation.
Truly a horse of a different color. That one I know for a fact isn't. Sorry to snap, but I've seen several dozen people tell current and former soldiers that their CIB wasn't authorized. And that's not a figurative number, I've actually witnessed that being done.
And as for the later mentioned Combat Action Badge, if someone asked me, I would tell them that it was not currently authorized in the reg. I would hate to do it, I know guys that have them, but that would be my answer.
Although, as it has also been said, I think that any badge someone has earned should be allowed to be worn..
Quote from: DNall on December 13, 2006, 10:39:11 PM
By the way, whoever that was talking about showing up to a SaREx w/ a two-week beard & green flt suit, I'd have made you shave or go home before you could sign in, AND would have some choice words for your commander - that's actually how I'd treat you for a real mission, being it's a SaREx that's the good mood treatment. If I'm having a bad day yuo might get the choice words direct from the source & sent home. There's no tolerance on that, especially when you can walk in the bathroom & fix it.
That was me.....you are always good for a chuckle ;D
Stephen
Quote from: DNall on December 13, 2006, 10:39:11 PM[stuff redacted]By the way, whoever that was talking about showing up to a SaREx w/ a two-week beard & green flt suit, I'd have made you shave or go home before you could sign in, AND would have some choice words for your commander - that's actually how I'd treat you for a real mission, being it's a SaREx that's the good mood treatment. If I'm having a bad day yuo might get the choice words direct from the source & sent home. There's no tolerance on that, especially when you can walk in the bathroom & fix it. [more stuff redacted]
It's obvious you have little experience with beards. Removing two weeks of facial hair is NOT a simple "walk in the bathroom and fix it" evolution. I would neither expect someone to do that nor do it myself. As one of our "furry" members, I agree that the green bag wear was out of line, but i also think the situation, inside the big picture, was handled properly.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 12, 2006, 06:49:13 PM
I am trying to get them to wear military uniforms more since we have cadets and I want them to set the example.
Four years as a cadet, more than 20 years in the US Military, another 10+ as a senior after the military - I LOVE THE EMBROIDERED GOLF SHIRT AND GRAY SLACKS! Work a little later on meeting nights, change shirts before leaving the office, what's not to like?
$40 dollars for a shirt, no insinnia to pin on. Buy three shirts for the cost of one entire blue uniform with all of the trash that gets pinned on, what's not to like.
IC calls, needs an aircrew. Tell the secretary how to get a hold of me, change shirts, go the airfield and fly, whats's not to like?
In these days of the business casual corporate office, the blue shirt is professional looking and easy on the PAO.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 13, 2006, 07:25:53 PM
So...we got some ex army guy who just has to wear his Combat Infantryman's Badge (which I believe is not authorized) do we loose what ever skills he brings to the table for a badge?
So you have no life altering event, represented by a small piece of metal, that you wear with pride and maybe to remember some friends? Yeah, when wearing an AF style uniform I also wear the two purple hearts that go with that CIB.
As others have said, it's authorized and the price for earning it was more than any other pretty piece of ribbon on my AF style uniform - military (ours and foreign) or CAP.
Quote from: CAP428 on December 12, 2006, 04:35:30 AM
For example, I just got back from my Wing's Cadet Conference, and there is one senior member who is known for his tough attitude and ability to intimidate people. He spent the entire weekend wearing the polo/gray slacks combo along with an unbuttoned BDU blouse and a RealTree hunting hat.
Needless to say, nobody corrected him due to fear they would be chewed out due to his reputation for less-than-friendly personality when people confront him. So, our wing's cadets got great exposure to the mindset of "I'm above the regulations."
If you're talking about an OKWG 1LT, the OKWG/IG has been informaed and will talk to the individual during the upcoming SUI.
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 14, 2006, 05:45:13 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 14, 2006, 12:51:54 AM
Because I don't know the manual chapter and verse. I should have substitude Naval Surface Warfare Badge or one of them not listed.
The point being....some earned badge that is not mentioned in the regulation.
Truly a horse of a different color. That one I know for a fact isn't. Sorry to snap, but I've seen several dozen people tell current and former soldiers that their CIB wasn't authorized. And that's not a figurative number, I've actually witnessed that being done.
And as for the later mentioned Combat Action Badge, if someone asked me, I would tell them that it was not currently authorized in the reg. I would hate to do it, I know guys that have them, but that would be my answer.
Although, as it has also been said, I think that any badge someone has earned should be allowed to be worn..
If someone ASKED me, I'd tell them the same thing. If someone wore it, I would not make the correction.
I figure National will correct the uniform violation when it updates the regs.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 14, 2006, 12:51:54 AM
Because I don't know the manual chapter and verse. I should have substitude Naval Surface Warfare Badge or one of them not listed.
The point being....some earned badge that is not mentioned in the regulation.
I've seen the Submarine Warfare Badge on an AD AF 1st LT's uniform. But I haven't read anything about wearing it in AFI 26-2903, I think that's the right numbers. BTW, is there a COMPLETE list of badges that can be worn on both the Air Force uniform, and the CAP Air Force Blues?
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 14, 2006, 12:40:51 PM
If someone ASKED me, I'd tell them the same thing. If someone wore it, I would not make the correction.
I'd probably do the same thing. Is it right? No. But I would make sure they know they wear at their own risk....
Quote from: Hammer on December 14, 2006, 04:23:38 PMI've seen the Submarine Warfare Badge on an AD AF 1st LT's uniform. But I haven't read anything about wearing it in AFI 26-2903, I think that's the right numbers. BTW, is there a COMPLETE list of badges that can be worn on both the Air Force uniform, and the CAP Air Force Blues?
That doesn't surprise me. I've seen some other badges worn by USAF members that I didn't even know existed.
I've attached an excerpt from 36-2903 of the "badge list" for USAF uniforms. More footnotes to it than there is list is seems.
Also attached is an excerpt from 39-1 on authorized badges.
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 14, 2006, 07:29:24 PM
Quote from: Hammer on December 14, 2006, 04:23:38 PMI've seen the Submarine Warfare Badge on an AD AF 1st LT's uniform. But I haven't read anything about wearing it in AFI 26-2903, I think that's the right numbers. BTW, is there a COMPLETE list of badges that can be worn on both the Air Force uniform, and the CAP Air Force Blues?
That doesn't surprise me. I've seen some other badges worn by USAF members that I didn't even know existed.
I've attached an excerpt from 36-2903 of the "badge list" for USAF uniforms. More footnotes to it than there is list is seems.
Also attached is an excerpt from 39-1 on authorized badges.
Thanks, Hawk2000. There's a whole crap-load of badges not mentioned there, though.
The Navy Enlisted Air Warfare Specialist (EAWS) badge for example. Is it an Occupational Specialty badge? Not really. Is it an Aeronautical Rating? Kind of... Anyone have any suggestions on this one?
I think you are supposed to call up the OPR at NHQ and they will give you the answer of the day for a question like that.
It's easier to leave it on the dresser... I've got enough other "Bling" to worry about.
Quote from: Hammer on December 14, 2006, 08:13:17 PM
Thanks, Hawk2000. There's a whole crap-load of badges not mentioned there, though.
I know. But to make an all inclusive list would be very time, not to mention paper, consuming to list everything authorized.
Personally, I think that all earned badges (not to include marksmanship badges), should be permitted for wear. There is a statement in 39-1 that could cover this, it would require a simple amendement to it. Just make the statement: "CAP members may wear US military badges earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies. "
It would make it simple. CAP is about the only National organization of its kind. We have folks that come in and like the fact that they contribute their prior experience, and some like the fact that some of their awards and decs can be worn on our uniform. I say, let them wear anything they earned. Fogleman had a similar policy, if you earned it, wear it.
The only stipulation I would have is they wear it the CAP way. I've seen jump and air assault wings worn on the pocket flap of the blues, and that's not right. They go above the ribbons or pocket, or equivalent position for females on the blouse. No other methods of wear would be permitted.
I would recommend:
QuoteCAP members may wear US military badges earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority.
Takes care of any military badges or awards earned by civilians (us or CG Aux) as well. In my opinion, if any branch of the military has seen fit to give someone a military award, they should be allowed to wear it in accordance with whatever limitations exist in CAP regs.
For most awards and decorations I would agree RiverAux, but I'm not so sure about badges.
Quote from: Al Sayre on December 14, 2006, 09:09:22 PM
The Navy Enlisted Air Warfare Specialist (EAWS) badge for example. Is it an Occupational Specialty badge? Not really. Is it an Aeronautical Rating? Kind of... Anyone have any suggestions on this one?
they are "wings" per say. i would till someone shows me where it says I can't. but then again, you've worked hard to earn them, so they shouldn't tell you to.
Quote from: Hammer on December 15, 2006, 02:43:52 AM
they are "wings" per say. i would till someone shows me where it says I can't. but then again, you've worked hard to earn them, so they shouldn't tell you to.
It's already spelled out. You can wear it if it's authorized for wear on the Air Force uniform. A lot of Navy badges are not. Ya don't get to wear whatever you want. Were I to join the Navy or Army, I'd have to give up at least one of my badges. I
can not wear it just because I earned it.
There are so many qualification badges in the various services, perhaps some limitation is needed....however, I do think that those badges and/or devices that represent combat service ought to be permitted on the CAP uniform....if this requires some revision to the regs to make it legitimate, I feel (speaking as one who has not sered in the military) that those among us who have put themselves at risk for our defense ought to be recognized, and also recognizable.
Quote from: RiverAux on December 14, 2006, 09:55:10 PM
I would recommend: QuoteCAP members may wear US military badges earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority.
Takes care of any military badges or awards earned by civilians (us or CG Aux) as well. In my opinion, if any branch of the military has seen fit to give someone a military award, they should be allowed to wear it in accordance with whatever limitations exist in CAP regs.
OK, I can buy that. It's fair and equitable to everyone.
Now, what do we do to get the Powers That Be to change it?
Quote from: ZigZag911 on December 15, 2006, 05:03:02 AM
There are so many qualification badges in the various services, perhaps some limitation is needed....however, I do think that those badges and/or devices that represent combat service ought to be permitted on the CAP uniform....if this requires some revision to the regs to make it legitimate, I feel (speaking as one who has not sered in the military) that those among us who have put themselves at risk for our defense ought to be recognized, and also recognizable.
I wouldn't limit like that. The reason being is that every badge that can be worn on the AF uniform may be worn on the CAP uniform. That's a pretty good load of badges. Out of 55 badges, only two Air Force badges aren't permitted. I've attached the chart from 36-2903.
At present, the Air Force does not have any kind of combat service badge. The Army has three basic combat badges. The Navy, one or two (I don't even know what they are, someone Navy is going to have to answer this one). I don't believe the Marine Corps has any, nor the Coast Guard. And obviously, the NOAA and PHS don't need one.
So if there are 53 badges from the Air Force that can be worn on the CAP uniform, why should we limit it for other services that have far fewer badges available? Most of the authorized AF badges are earned initially when one graduates from technical training. Far easier when compared to what it takes some of the other branches to get theirs.
Quote from: SarDragon on December 14, 2006, 06:21:29 AM
Quote from: DNall on December 13, 2006, 10:39:11 PM[stuff redacted]By the way, whoever that was talking about showing up to a SaREx w/ a two-week beard & green flt suit, I'd have made you shave or go home before you could sign in, AND would have some choice words for your commander - that's actually how I'd treat you for a real mission, being it's a SaREx that's the good mood treatment. If I'm having a bad day yuo might get the choice words direct from the source & sent home. There's no tolerance on that, especially when you can walk in the bathroom & fix it. [more stuff redacted]
It's obvious you have little experience with beards. Removing two weeks of facial hair is NOT a simple "walk in the bathroom and fix it" evolution. I would neither expect someone to do that nor do it myself. As one of our "furry" members, I agree that the green bag wear was out of line, but i also think the situation, inside the big picture, was handled properly.
You'd let him fly like that? We're talking about two weeks here, not two years. I didn't say it'd be comfortable, my point was he has control over his grooming & CHOSE to show up like that in THE uniform that they make the very biggest deal about (no unneccesary stops & such). To a formal SaREx by the way where everyone has notice about the event & who knows who will show up to take a look.
I don't care if you want to have a beard, it doesn't make any difference to me, but don't put me in a precarious spot w/ liability/insurance/risk mgmt issues, not to mention getting dumped on from above. I'm over here working hard doing my job, and I don't deserve to get crapped on cause you made a choice. I don't care if it was lazy, didn't have time, or what the hell ever, you don't have the right to be selfish & put me in that boat.... That's what I'm going to be thiking when I see that situation in front of me.
Far as mil badges... I mentioend how the CAP interpretation changed under the new AFI but that the contradictory chart makes it quirky. The next update would be to fix that chart, which gets rid of CIB & a few others. I'm not saying that's right, just that's where we are right now. Personally, I do think AF should allow CAP more latitude to wear other service mil badges not normally (rarely) auth on AF uniforms, but that's an AF call.
Interesting to see how these threads become a life all their own. If I remember correctly this thread was started to simply discuss the merits of senior officers being inspected in a formal formation during regular meetings. It quickly turned into what Militarty badges and awards should or shouldn't be worn, and whether to let someone fly with 2 weeks growth in the green flight suit.
Now don't get me wrong I'm not complaining or saying the way the thread went is wrong. I am simply commenting on how these things sping to life like Frankenstein's Monster, get released into the wild and start throwing little girls down water wells. >:D
Any way lets continue and see where this particular monster ends up and tally how many girls get trhown down wells.
We now return you to your nomally scheduled rants and raves. :P
Quote from: shorning on December 13, 2006, 09:45:03 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on December 13, 2006, 09:25:57 PM
You're right! Why look something up and quote an authority when you can speculate wildly online! ::)
I wasn't talking about your posting style...
Relax. Un-bunch your shorts. Go look for someone to 2b or something.
Dude, I swear I just snarfed in my coffee cup. Gross! :D
Gotta quote my cadets on this one. "
oh.........SNAP!"
Quote from: msmjr2003 on December 15, 2006, 04:03:51 PM
Dude, I swear I just snarfed in my coffee cup. Gross! :D
Drink it! >:D
Quote from: DNall on December 15, 2006, 07:26:55 AM
[ I don't care if it was lazy, didn't have time, or what the hell ever, you don't have the right to be selfish & put me in that boat.... That's what I'm going to be thiking when I see that situation in front of me.
You are killing me ::)
I've already told the list that it was an actual SAR with a downed aircraft and I got the call to come up after I was at work. Trust me, the grieving parents didn't give two rips when I met them at the Mission Base. They were thankful that we all dropped what we were doing for a total stranger....When you have been on a few actuals you'll see what I mean. I've also said that my blue bag was busted so I left work and went straight to the aircraft with my gear available to me.
I was called on it, fixed my zipper, still have my beard....AND was offered $30 an hour to be Santa at the Mall last week. Life is good.
My black goatskin A2 should be arriving any day now from Pop's Leather. I can't wait to see how it looks with the new corporate uniform. I don't wear the AF blues because, well I was offered $30 an hour to be SANTA :-[ Until it arrives I may just wear my brown A2 as civilian outerwear if it ever gets cold enough here on the beach.
Why don't you come down for a visit...changes in latitude, changes in attitude?
Semper vi, y'all.
Stephen
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 15, 2006, 05:43:44 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on December 15, 2006, 05:03:02 AM
There are so many qualification badges in the various services, perhaps some limitation is needed....however, I do think that those badges and/or devices that represent combat service ought to be permitted on the CAP uniform....if this requires some revision to the regs to make it legitimate, I feel (speaking as one who has not sered in the military) that those among us who have put themselves at risk for our defense ought to be recognized, and also recognizable.
I wouldn't limit like that. The reason being is that every badge that can be worn on the AF uniform may be worn on the CAP uniform. That's a pretty good load of badges. Out of 55 badges, only two Air Force badges aren't permitted. I've attached the chart from 36-2903.
At present, the Air Force does not have any kind of combat service badge. The Army has three basic combat badges. The Navy, one or two (I don't even know what they are, someone Navy is going to have to answer this one). I don't believe the Marine Corps has any, nor the Coast Guard. And obviously, the NOAA and PHS don't need one.
So if there are 53 badges from the Air Force that can be worn on the CAP uniform, why should we limit it for other services that have far fewer badges available? Most of the authorized AF badges are earned initially when one graduates from technical training. Far easier when compared to what it takes some of the other branches to get theirs.
Hawk:
The Navy issues a "Submarine Combat Patrol" and "Combat Aircrew" badge, which is work on the Navy uniform under the ribbon rack. Otherwise, both the Navy and Marine Corps award a "Combat Action Ribbon" to those in actual combat.
That's why its unfair to say that ALL Navy/Marine folks who were in combat can wear the CA Ribbon, but only the Army folks who were infantry or medics can wear a device signifying exposure to hostile fire.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 15, 2006, 06:13:21 PM
Hawk:
The Navy issues a "Submarine Combat Patrol" and "Combat Aircrew" badge, which is work on the Navy uniform under the ribbon rack. Otherwise, both the Navy and Marine Corps award a "Combat Action Ribbon" to those in actual combat.
Thank you, sir. I knew there was a couple, but couldn't remember exactly what they were. I think they ought to be allowed to wear, but over the ribbons, just like any CAP badge would be worn.
QuoteThat's why its unfair to say that ALL Navy/Marine folks who were in combat can wear the CA Ribbon, but only the Army folks who were infantry or medics can wear a device signifying exposure to hostile fire.
I was reading something, and I think it may have actually been in the Marine Corps uniform reg, that if a former soldier has a verified combat badge, then they may wear the Combat Action Ribbon on the Marine Corps uniform. So the Marines do recognize a persons combat experience, but they do it their own way.
Additionally, it seems like the Navy/Marine Corps treats the CAR like an Army combat patch. The patch just means you were there, not necessarily shot at.
So where does that leave the Marine with a CAR? Possibly out in the cold, but maybe not. Every Marine I've ever known had on ribbons on every service uniform they wore. Even the short sleeve shirts without tie. I imagine that putting ribbons on even that uniform is almost instinctive. But a ribbon is far less noticeable(harder to pick out of a crowd) than any badge.
Digressing, we allow pretty much any military decoration to be worn. Why not do the same for badges?
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 15, 2006, 06:46:18 PM
I was reading something, and I think it may have actually been in the Marine Corps uniform reg, that if a former soldier has a verified combat badge, then they may wear the Combat Action Ribbon on the Marine Corps uniform. So the Marines do recognize a persons combat experience, but they do it their own way.
Additionally, it seems like the Navy/Marine Corps treats the CAR like an Army combat patch. The patch just means you were there, not necessarily shot at.
So where does that leave the Marine with a CAR? Possibly out in the cold, but maybe not. Every Marine I've ever known had on ribbons on every service uniform they wore. Even the short sleeve shirts without tie. I imagine that putting ribbons on even that uniform is almost instinctive. But a ribbon is far less noticeable(harder to pick out of a crowd) than any badge.
Digressing, we allow pretty much any military decoration to be worn. Why not do the same for badges?
Just FYI, the Combat Action Ribbon is allowed for wear in CAP (#30 on Table 5-3 in 39-1).
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 15, 2006, 06:46:18 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 15, 2006, 06:13:21 PM
Hawk:
The Navy issues a "Submarine Combat Patrol" and "Combat Aircrew" badge, which is work on the Navy uniform under the ribbon rack. Otherwise, both the Navy and Marine Corps award a "Combat Action Ribbon" to those in actual combat.
Thank you, sir. I knew there was a couple, but couldn't remember exactly what they were. I think they ought to be allowed to wear, but over the ribbons, just like any CAP badge would be worn.
QuoteThat's why its unfair to say that ALL Navy/Marine folks who were in combat can wear the CA Ribbon, but only the Army folks who were infantry or medics can wear a device signifying exposure to hostile fire.
I was reading something, and I think it may have actually been in the Marine Corps uniform reg, that if a former soldier has a verified combat badge, then they may wear the Combat Action Ribbon on the Marine Corps uniform. So the Marines do recognize a persons combat experience, but they do it their own way.
Additionally, it seems like the Navy/Marine Corps treats the CAR like an Army combat patch. The patch just means you were there, not necessarily shot at.
So where does that leave the Marine with a CAR? Possibly out in the cold, but maybe not. Every Marine I've ever known had on ribbons on every service uniform they wore. Even the short sleeve shirts without tie. I imagine that putting ribbons on even that uniform is almost instinctive. But a ribbon is far less noticeable(harder to pick out of a crowd) than any badge.
Digressing, we allow pretty much any military decoration to be worn. Why not do the same for badges?
The CAR is for ACTUAL combat, not just combat service like the Army's combat patch. The guys in the rear with the gear and the beer who never hear the guns don't get it.
Quote from: davedove on December 15, 2006, 07:00:35 PM
Just FYI, the Combat Action Ribbon is allowed for wear in CAP (#30 on Table 5-3 in 39-1).
Yeah it is. I apologize if I gave the impression it wasn't. I was trying to point out that ribbons are far less noticeable than a badge (even if both will indicate the same thing). People rarely look at a persons rack and say "What is that particular ribbon for?"
They will, however, look at a badge and say, "What's that for?"
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 15, 2006, 09:18:35 PM
The CAR is for ACTUAL combat, not just combat service like the Army's combat patch. The guys in the rear with the gear and the beer who never hear the guns don't get it.
Ahh, I see, I've learned something new today. So it does in fact carry the same weight as any Army combat badge. Which explains the Marine Corps' "exchange" policy, allowing its wear in lieu of the combat badges.
Quote from: davedove on December 15, 2006, 07:00:35 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 15, 2006, 06:46:18 PM
I was reading something, and I think it may have actually been in the Marine Corps uniform reg, that if a former soldier has a verified combat badge, then they may wear the Combat Action Ribbon on the Marine Corps uniform. So the Marines do recognize a persons combat experience, but they do it their own way.
Additionally, it seems like the Navy/Marine Corps treats the CAR like an Army combat patch. The patch just means you were there, not necessarily shot at.
So where does that leave the Marine with a CAR? Possibly out in the cold, but maybe not. Every Marine I've ever known had on ribbons on every service uniform they wore. Even the short sleeve shirts without tie. I imagine that putting ribbons on even that uniform is almost instinctive. But a ribbon is far less noticeable(harder to pick out of a crowd) than any badge.
Digressing, we allow pretty much any military decoration to be worn. Why not do the same for badges?
Just FYI, the Combat Action Ribbon is allowed for wear in CAP (#30 on Table 5-3 in 39-1).
That's the point I was trying to make, Dave. In the Navy and Marines, if you are in combat, you get a ribbon. In the Army, one gets any one of three badges, The Combat Infantry Badge (Grunts) The Combat Medical Badge (Docs) or the Combat Action Badge (Everybody else.) Only two of the three are authorized on the CAP uniform at this time. I think that will be changed shortly, and at the risk of being accused by the Uniform Nazis of shaking the very structure of CAP to the ground, I don't consider wearing the CAB to be a violation worthy of my time to correct.
"Combat Patch" is kind of a misnomer... I believe AR 670-1 calls it SSI-FWTS (Shoulder Sleeve Insignia-Former Wartime Service).
Quote from: MIKE on December 15, 2006, 09:40:05 PM
"Combat Patch" is kind of a misnomer... I believe AR 670-1 calls it SSI-FWTS (Shoulder Sleeve Insignia-Former Wartime Service).
Yeah, that's the official terminology. Everybody I know in the Army calls it that, though. I called it a "Former Wartime Service patch" once, and I got some of the wierdest looks. They honeslty had no idea what I was talking about.
At times I wonder how many people actually read their uniform regs.
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 15, 2006, 05:43:44 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on December 15, 2006, 05:03:02 AM
There are so many qualification badges in the various services, perhaps some limitation is needed....however, I do think that those badges and/or devices that represent combat service ought to be permitted on the CAP uniform....if this requires some revision to the regs to make it legitimate, I feel (speaking as one who has not sered in the military) that those among us who have put themselves at risk for our defense ought to be recognized, and also recognizable.
So if there are 53 badges from the Air Force that can be worn on the CAP uniform, why should we limit it for other services that have far fewer badges available? Most of the authorized AF badges are earned initially when one graduates from technical training. Far easier when compared to what it takes some of the other branches to get theirs.
Perhaps I misunderstood....I thought the current situation is that NO 'other service' badges are permitted on CAP uniform, in keeping with AF regs.
If that is the case, I believe combat service badges/insignia from Army, marines, Nave & CG should be authorized (using the correct process) for CAP uniform.
If I was mistaken, then certainly I have no objection to other qualification badges from the various services.
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 14, 2006, 09:29:41 PM
Quote from: Hammer on December 14, 2006, 08:13:17 PM
Thanks, Hawk2000. There's a whole crap-load of badges not mentioned there, though.
Personally, I think that all earned badges (not to include marksmanship badges), should be permitted for wear. There is a statement in 39-1 that could cover this, it would require a simple amendement to it. Just make the statement: "CAP members may wear US military badges earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies. "
I agree 100 % !!! SOmeone needs to write a letter requesting a change to NHQ.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 15, 2006, 06:13:21 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 15, 2006, 05:43:44 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on December 15, 2006, 05:03:02 AM
There are so many qualification badges in the various services, perhaps some limitation is needed....however, I do think that those badges and/or devices that represent combat service ought to be permitted on the CAP uniform....if this requires some revision to the regs to make it legitimate, I feel (speaking as one who has not sered in the military) that those among us who have put themselves at risk for our defense ought to be recognized, and also recognizable.
I wouldn't limit like that. The reason being is that every badge that can be worn on the AF uniform may be worn on the CAP uniform. That's a pretty good load of badges. Out of 55 badges, only two Air Force badges aren't permitted. I've attached the chart from 36-2903.
At present, the Air Force does not have any kind of combat service badge. The Army has three basic combat badges. The Navy, one or two (I don't even know what they are, someone Navy is going to have to answer this one). I don't believe the Marine Corps has any, nor the Coast Guard. And obviously, the NOAA and PHS don't need one.
So if there are 53 badges from the Air Force that can be worn on the CAP uniform, why should we limit it for other services that have far fewer badges available? Most of the authorized AF badges are earned initially when one graduates from technical training. Far easier when compared to what it takes some of the other branches to get theirs.
Hawk:
The Navy issues a "Submarine Combat Patrol" and "Combat Aircrew" badge, which is work on the Navy uniform under the ribbon rack. Otherwise, both the Navy and Marine Corps award a "Combat Action Ribbon" to those in actual combat.
That's why its unfair to say that ALL Navy/Marine folks who were in combat can wear the CA Ribbon, but only the Army folks who were infantry or medics can wear a device signifying exposure to hostile fire.
What are the requirements for the Submarine Combat Patrol, and the Combat Aircrew Badge? I tried google, but no result. Is the Combat Aircrew Badge worn by pilots also?
Quote from: Hammer on December 16, 2006, 02:25:23 AMWhat are the requirements for the Submarine Combat Patrol, and the Combat Aircrew Badge? I tried google, but no result. Is the Combat Aircrew Badge worn by pilots also?
Combat patrol aboard a fast attack or SSBN 'boomer' sub. Not sure if there are distinctive badges for the attack guys, but the boomers get to add stars to their badge for each SSBN patrol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badges_of_the_United_States_Navy
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on December 16, 2006, 12:58:32 PM
Quote from: Hammer on December 16, 2006, 02:25:23 AMWhat are the requirements for the Submarine Combat Patrol, and the Combat Aircrew Badge? I tried google, but no result. Is the Combat Aircrew Badge worn by pilots also?
Combat patrol aboard a fast attack or SSBN 'boomer' sub. Not sure if there are distinctive badges for the attack guys, but the boomers get to add stars to their badge for each SSBN patrol.
Chuck:
I think that's the SSBN Deterrent Badge. The Combat Patrol Badge is from back in WWII and has been continued up through at least Vietnam, which is the last time I wore a sailor suit.
Quote from: Hammer on December 16, 2006, 02:25:23 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 15, 2006, 06:13:21 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 15, 2006, 05:43:44 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on December 15, 2006, 05:03:02 AM
There are so many qualification badges in the various services, perhaps some limitation is needed....however, I do think that those badges and/or devices that represent combat service ought to be permitted on the CAP uniform....if this requires some revision to the regs to make it legitimate, I feel (speaking as one who has not sered in the military) that those among us who have put themselves at risk for our defense ought to be recognized, and also recognizable.
I wouldn't limit like that. The reason being is that every badge that can be worn on the AF uniform may be worn on the CAP uniform. That's a pretty good load of badges. Out of 55 badges, only two Air Force badges aren't permitted. I've attached the chart from 36-2903.
At present, the Air Force does not have any kind of combat service badge. The Army has three basic combat badges. The Navy, one or two (I don't even know what they are, someone Navy is going to have to answer this one). I don't believe the Marine Corps has any, nor the Coast Guard. And obviously, the NOAA and PHS don't need one.
So if there are 53 badges from the Air Force that can be worn on the CAP uniform, why should we limit it for other services that have far fewer badges available? Most of the authorized AF badges are earned initially when one graduates from technical training. Far easier when compared to what it takes some of the other branches to get theirs.
Hawk:
The Navy issues a "Submarine Combat Patrol" and "Combat Aircrew" badge, which is work on the Navy uniform under the ribbon rack. Otherwise, both the Navy and Marine Corps award a "Combat Action Ribbon" to those in actual combat.
That's why its unfair to say that ALL Navy/Marine folks who were in combat can wear the CA Ribbon, but only the Army folks who were infantry or medics can wear a device signifying exposure to hostile fire.
What are the requirements for the Submarine Combat Patrol, and the Combat Aircrew Badge? I tried google, but no result. Is the Combat Aircrew Badge worn by pilots also?
IIRC, the Submarine Combat Patrol Badge is awarded fro a wartime patrol in a sub. A star is added for each additional patrol. Same with the Combat Aircrew Badge. I THINK the Combat Aircrew Badge is only for enlisted. In any case, both are "Secondary" awards. You still wear the wings and/or dolphins.