CAP Officers Behaving Badly Poll

[RiverAux]

One of the more common stories and/or complaints floating around here regularly is about some CAP officer going trolling for salutes on a military base or trying to pull rank on someone in the actual military, or getting upset that someone in the military didn't salute them.  This is most often used as an anecdote to support some opinion about CAP not being worthy to wear AF-style uniforms or being a bunch of posers. 

This is almost unheard of in my experience and I don't think it happens enough to be a real factor in CAP/AF relations.  But lets put some numbers on it. 

Have you personally seen such behavior or do you have reliable information that someone that you personally know has done any of those things in the last 5 years? 

If your best story is about some person you couldn't pick out of a lineup or if it came from a buddy who told you that he heard that some guy in another Wing did this..... -- It doesn't count. 

[Smithsonia]

My wife is not a member but refuses to salute me under any circumstances. This disappoints me no end.

I've told her when I make Major I expect better treatment. With this news, she snickers, makes a screwy face, and points at me. Does that count as bad behavior?

Personally, I don't think she is disrespectful of the uniform... just of me.

[wuzafuzz]

CAP Officers Behaving Badly...tonight on Fox!

[billford1]

While on a base in BBDUs I've been saluted by Army NG troops. Recalling the stories about a delusional CAP General trying to boss around AF Personnel makes me wonder what happens to somebody to make them create such a spectacle. Sometimes Cadets Salute me which is great. Years ago when I was in a S.C. Squadron the Cadets were very good about saluting me except for one Cadet Major who refused to Salute me but I did not make an issue of it.  I think there's a strong case to be made for an upgraded Professional Development program for CAP Officers that should take precedence over Aerospace and specialty track programs. I would inquire with the CAP/USAF State Director to try to bring USAF Officers and NCOs to teach a component of SLS and CLC courses. I think this could have a positive impact on how CAP Officers look and act. I know of at least one squadron where I relocated to most of the senior officers went through customs and courtesies classes (taught by Cadets)  which included close order drill. If there are any in the AF who have high expectations of CAP Officers the AF folks could make a difference. When it comes to being a CAP Officer on a Military Base I only wear the Polo Shirt.

[Eclipse]

Sometimes Cadets Salute me which is great.

Sometimes?  I assume when they don't you actively and professionally "remind them", right?

[Eclipse]

I'd also like to here the first-hand "I saw it." or  "I had to deal with it" stories of those who are voting that
they know of these situations.

[RiverAux]

If a CAP Officer complains about a CAP cadet saluting them, that is 100% okay and such incidents should not be counted in the polls since in this case, the CAP Officer has every right to expect such a salute.  Don't include such incidents in your answer. 

And for that matter, if a CAP Officer goes trolling for salutes around CAP cadets, thats also "legal", if a little silly, so don't include it.

Also, don't include CAP Officers trying to pull rank on other CAP members.  Given the way we allocate authority for various things in CAP this certainly can be considered "behaving badly", but the poll is about CAP members actions in and around the real military. 

[heliodoc]

Now CAPers are "trolling for numbers" checking on RM and CAP relations based on saluting

There wer plenty of poser 20 -30 yrs ago and I am sure there are some that do exist now

Could you CAPers really tell a poser from the real thing?? That suggestion to get a RM folk to an SLS or CLC course, is that really a new idea?  Cmon  invite a REAL AF or Guard member to it without a SD "permission"

CAPtalk and numbers.....we don't need no stinking numbers, we just need further confirmation that CAP needs salutes to be relevant and viable.  CAP senior member programs have ALWAYS been in need of a structured customs and courtesies course....ALLL of them NOT just the pilots

C'mon!! Where are your scientific numbers to prove this poll??   

[billford1]

Sometimes Cadets Salute me which is great.

Sometimes?  I assume when they don't you actively and professionally "remind them", right?

I considered making an issue of it but if you've got a Senior Officer who tells you that Cadets don't salute seniors who are in a corporate and not in an AF uniform what's the point? My Squadron Commander made an issue of it directing the Cadets to Salute all Senior Members and I agree that they should. It varies from Squadron to Squadron. Most Senior Officers I've talked to about this in the past agreed that all seniors are due a salute, and are obligated to return the salute. I haven't raised the issue beyond that because it's not a regulation. When with CAP on a Military Base I think the dynamics change a little so I'll take up the issue privately with the CAP Commanding Officer in charge privately and let the answer given stand. As for Military personnel my experience has been somewhat different with AF Majors, Colonels and Sr NCOs than it has with younger enlisted folks. I take care to be reserved like a good guest.

[billford1]

Now CAPers are "trolling for numbers" checking on RM and CAP relations based on saluting
CAPers trolling among RM do so at their own risk.
There wer plenty of poser 20 -30 yrs ago and I am sure there are some that do exist now

Could you CAPers really tell a poser from the real thing?? That suggestion to get a RM folk to an SLS or CLC course, is that really a new idea?  Cmon  invite a REAL AF or Guard member to it without a SD "permission"?

A poser is less likely to remain composed and respectable so my answer is yes. Who in CAP would not go to the SD for "Permission"
CAPtalk and numbers.....we don't need no stinking numbers," WHAAT??

" we just need further confirmation that CAP needs salutes to be relevant and viable."  Yes

"CAP senior member programs have ALWAYS been in need of a structured customs and courtesies course....ALLL of them NOT just the pilots"   Agreed

C'mon!! Where are your scientific numbers to prove this poll??   

Please; Why does anyone need scientific numbers? Do You?

[isuhawkeye]

The problem with putting numbers to this problem is that it only takes 1 incident to ruin years of hard work building relationships.

[DG]

The US Coast Guard Auxiliary does not salute.

[Stonewall]

I personally witnessed/experienced a CAP senior member not so much "demanding" respect from the military, but certainly expecting it.  Not to mention, this person wanted to be considered in such a status that they were, in fact, equal to that of her military counterpart.

As an example, during an encampment at a Navy base, this Lt Col was the Encampment CC.  The Lt Col made sure they were "taken care of" accordingly and put in the Visiting Officers Quarters for that of an O-5 or higher.  This was not conducive to being readily available to other encampment staff as the Encampment CC was far from the center of encampment.

I would equate this person to being that of a wanna-be.  However, not in the sense that we often think, i.e. Ranger, Commando, Ninja; but rather a member of Joint Chiefs.

[RiverAux]

Just to clarify, when I included "trolling for salutes on a military base" as an option, I'm talking about someone that goes out of their way to put themselves in a position where they might get saluted.  For example, if walking from the parking lot to a building where there is a CAP meeting, they detour  way out of their way to walk by a bunch of military enlisted folks. 

[heliodoc]

^^

And to clarify, River.  I have seen it done during my days as a aircraft mech on Guard and AD time.  Did not see it everyday and I know it did not happen everyday...

Makes CAP officers look like tools

[Spike]

Hey...even in the military some of us don't go looking for salutes.  To tell you the truth, it gets somewhat old always having to return salutes when I am just running to the BX/PX or the Commissary. 

I don't yell at the SP or MP folks at the gate when they don't salute me in my car, nor do I run down a person for failing to salute me.

In CAP, I think it is even less common for members trolling for salutes.  If they did, they are only making a fool of themselves.  However, I will be the first to remind Cadets that Officers are rated a salute and should be addressed as Sir or Ma'am.

 

[flyboy53]

I guess I'm really getting tired of these rumors and stories. I was a base liaision twice and a Reserve Assistance NCO for a couple of years. There were bigger issues than salutes that occurred; like the second lieutenant that walked into the Civil Engineering Squadron at Westover AFB and demanded paint, supplies and tools. I got called in front of the wing commander. The thing with the salute that I was personally aware of was the IL Wing Commander at an encampment at Chanute AFB, IL back in the early 70s. He got escorted from the base. You hear the same stories about guys with half-zipped up flight suits on crew buses. Can't we as an organization just enjoy the priviledge of the uniform and rank and not let it go to our heads. Those stories continue to just reopen old wounds.

[James Shaw]

I feel that if you are a SM of any grade than you should be saluted by all cadets. If I had a cadet who refused to than I would address it directly. It is part of their leadership training. I dont care what uniform you are in as a SM it is still our uniform and the cadet should salute.

If I am on a military base of any sort than I don't expect any salutes at all but will salute others as a matter of professional courtesy. If I get a salute than a will properly return the salute.

During my stay in San Antonio I went to lunch at a Denny's across the street. On the way back we saw some Active Duty Air Force Officers crossing the street (not CAP, Dr. Conference at hotel next to us) and both female officers (captains) saluted myself and Col Blascovich. I returned the salute and they stopped and talked to us for a few minutes. Both psychiatrists asked us a few questions about what CAP was doing in Texas and we explained. They said they appreciated what CAP does and saluted us before they left. Nice gesture.


On the other side of the coin. I had a 2LT in my squadron who called and chewed out a recruiter that had talked to their daughter about the AF. She misrepresented herself as an AD member and this guy was an E6. Had a pretty big    stink about it in the area for a while.

[heliodoc]

flyboy

The folks on CAPtalk demand respect to their authority and by talking or writing about it here are consistently opening wounds on salutes, ate up uniform wear

I come here for the humor certainly not for the "technology transfer."  Because there certainly isn't enough here and certainly all those folks who love to tell you they are solving the problems while telling other s to get out of CAP and leave it to their"capable" hands.  There have been way too many capable hands in CAP, that IS why we are the fix we are in :clap: :clap: :clap:

Folks here LOVE to open wounds.....CAP just DOES NOT get enough salutes or pats on the back and certainly uniform wear has gotten to a fever pitch here far worse than ANY AD assignment ever. 

WHHHHHHHAAAAA

[BuckeyeDEJ]