Is a Air NG/AF type of relationship possible for CAP?

[JohnKachenmeister]

That sounds like the right ball park.  Glad to see you are in there pitching!

[RiverAux]

I'm working at the macro level because if you think that a simple change in where CAP is administered at the federal level will have any effect on how CAP is handled in each state, you're wrong.  Some, if not all, of the steps I outlined in the first post would need to take place for it to happen. 

First, you said CAP (meaning the CAP-USAF employees) would be transferred to ANG.  Do you mean Air National Guard or Army National Guard (just want to be clear)?  I'm not very familiar with their command structure.  Could you elaborate exactly where the CAP-USAF guys would go, both at the federal level and the local (state directors and AF Reservists)? 

What would change is our corporate missions.  This arrangement would make the "MOU" obsolete.  We would perform corporate missions for the Adjutant General, exclusively.  If a local govt., NGO, or any state dept other than the AG wanted CAP assets, they would request them from the AG in the same manner that they would request any other National Guard support.  These regulations are already in place.

How?  As far as each state would be concerned, we would still be a non-profit corporation that sometimes serves as the AF Auxiliary and would not be considered an intrinsic part of their state government as are the National Guard.  The state law isuhawkee quoted does not negate the fact that somehwhere there is an MOU between the state of Iowa and CAP that lays out mission request procedures. 

Instead of a wing commander negotiating MOU's with a state emergency preparedness dept and scores of county EOC's, there would be ONE set of rules nationally, placing the AG in command of the CAP wing for operational purposes (Operational Control).  Administrative Control would remain with NHQ, CAP.  The cadet program would fall under the administrative chain of command.

How?  Again, you're just not understanding that no matter where you put the folks in command of CAP at the federal level that will not changee the fact that each state can chose how it deals with CAP call-outs.  Putting control of CAP in the hands of the Air National Guard at the federal level will not automatically put us under the "control" of the Air National Guard in any one state.  All existing MOUs would continue and if Delaware wants all requests for CAP to go through the state agriculture commission, they could chose to do so. 

All the examples you gave are perfectly reasonable ways of doing things and that is how the current CAP-state MOUs generally work.  If the state asks us to do something, the department doing the asking gets the bill from CAP. 

Now, if what you are really advocating is a state-by-state campaign to have requests for CAP services go through the Adjutant General as they evidently do in Iowa, that is fine and dandy.  Nothing stopping that from happening, though I'm not sure convinced that it would be a major improvement over having them go through the state emergency mgt department (which is usually the case now).  However, you would need to change the MOUs between CAP and the state, in each state, to make it happen. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'm working at the macro level because if you think that a simple change in where CAP is administered at the federal level will have any effect on how CAP is handled in each state, you're wrong.  Some, if not all, of the steps I outlined in the first post would need to take place for it to happen. 

First, you said CAP (meaning the CAP-USAF employees) would be transferred to ANG.  Do you mean Air National Guard or Army National Guard (just want to be clear)?  I'm not very familiar with their command structure.  Could you elaborate exactly where the CAP-USAF guys would go, both at the federal level and the local (state directors and AF Reservists)? 

What would change is our corporate missions.  This arrangement would make the "MOU" obsolete.  We would perform corporate missions for the Adjutant General, exclusively.  If a local govt., NGO, or any state dept other than the AG wanted CAP assets, they would request them from the AG in the same manner that they would request any other National Guard support.  These regulations are already in place.

How?  As far as each state would be concerned, we would still be a non-profit corporation that sometimes serves as the AF Auxiliary and would not be considered an intrinsic part of their state government as are the National Guard.  The state law isuhawkee quoted does not negate the fact that somehwhere there is an MOU between the state of Iowa and CAP that lays out mission request procedures. 

Instead of a wing commander negotiating MOU's with a state emergency preparedness dept and scores of county EOC's, there would be ONE set of rules nationally, placing the AG in command of the CAP wing for operational purposes (Operational Control).  Administrative Control would remain with NHQ, CAP.  The cadet program would fall under the administrative chain of command.

How?  Again, you're just not understanding that no matter where you put the folks in command of CAP at the federal level that will not changee the fact that each state can chose how it deals with CAP call-outs.  Putting control of CAP in the hands of the Air National Guard at the federal level will not automatically put us under the "control" of the Air National Guard in any one state.  All existing MOUs would continue and if Delaware wants all requests for CAP to go through the state agriculture commission, they could chose to do so. 

All the examples you gave are perfectly reasonable ways of doing things and that is how the current CAP-state MOUs generally work.  If the state asks us to do something, the department doing the asking gets the bill from CAP. 

Now, if what you are really advocating is a state-by-state campaign to have requests for CAP services go through the Adjutant General as they evidently do in Iowa, that is fine and dandy.  Nothing stopping that from happening, though I'm not sure convinced that it would be a major improvement over having them go through the state emergency mgt department (which is usually the case now).  However, you would need to change the MOUs between CAP and the state, in each state, to make it happen. 

I see one flaw in your understanding, at least.  CAP is more than just CAP-USAF.  CAP is an integral part of the USAF, and is currently under the command of the Air University, which is a part of the Air Training and Education Command.  The Air Universityy exercises command and control over the CAP in its Air Force role through CAP-USAF HQ.

Placing CAP under the AIR National Guard (I don't know how you figure the Army into any of this) would involve transferring CAP-USAF to act in its same role under a new command, the Air National Guard.  The Commander of the Air National Guard could, acting within his command authority, direct each of the 52 wings to operate under the operational command of the state Adjutant General.  NHQ, CAP would also be under ANG command, of course, and would continue to exercise administrative command, and control of all cadet programs.

The OPCON to the AG would be to provide the ANG a resource that it does not currently have, a light aircraft force to use in disaster relief missions.  This would keep all military assets under a single military commander, and specifically all air assets under a single air operations headquarters.  This would allow for greater flexibility and economy in response to disasters, and safer and more efficient use of airspace.  In the various officer training schools, they teach this as the principle of "Unity of Command." 

OPCON to the AG would not affect the ability of the 1st AF or AFRCC to directly task CAP assets to respond to a federal mission.  NORAD can directly task ANG fighter units in CONUS defense missions, and we would fall under the same principle.

This would negate the current MOU's with the civilian emergency management organizations.  If the EMA desired air support, the support request would go to the National Guard.  The NG air operations officer would evaluate the request and select the appropriate resource.  It may be CAP, it may be rotary-wing Army assets, or it may be a heavy-lift asset of the Air Force/ANG.  The call is made by the Air Boss and he issues the tasking.

I have worked both as a National Guard officer during disasters, and have seen this system operate. 

[RiverAux]

Yes, CAP is more than CAP-USAF, but those are the folks that matter in terms of performing AF oversight of CAP activities.  How would the State Directors and CAP-RAP program be handled under your scenario?

While you could certainly put CAP-USAF (and their oversight responsibilities) anywhere you want, including under someone in charge of the Air National Guard at the federal level, that does NOT change the fact that under federal law we are a non-profit corporation of civilian volunteers under the direction of the Board of Governors. 

Where I'm with you (sort of), is that the AF may be able to delegate some of its oversight responsibilities down to the state NG and it could probably even delegate AFAM operational control for approval and oversight of state and local missions to a state Adj. Gen rather than AFRCC.  But that would only give that Adj. Gen. some control over what CAP does as the AF Auxiliary (A and B missions).  In this case, the AG is acting as a rep of the AF, not of the state.

And what makes you think the AF wants to really even make it easier to get AFAM status for state missions?  Heck, was it Iowa that they made do a straight-up state homeland security exercise as a corporate mission that they refused even unfunded AFAM status for?

And if we do state and local missions as corporate missions (C14), what right would the AG have to control how those missions are conducted by a Wing just be virtue of delegated responsibility for AF Aux missions? 

I am curious as to whether there would be any complications with making the AG take his "federal" hat on and off in regards to CAP AFAMs.  Would he need to be put on federal orders to do this essentially federal job?  I'm not familiar enough with what restrictions are on them to say. 

[aveighter]

John, I really have to go with riveraux on this one.

Surely you realize by now that, Hey, nothing matters and what if it did?

I have it on good authority that the leadership at Iowa Wing has finally come to the correct conclusion that all of their accomplishments were not actually possible.  Having done what can't be done, they are at last returning to doing nothing secure in the knowledge that all will be right with the world once again.  A special session of the Iowa legislature is being convened to reverse the legislation regarding CAP that they now realize couldn't be done in the first place.

I have also been notified by the NAAHR&P (national association for the advancement of historical rights and possibilities) that existential and posthumous meetings are being held with Hap Arnold about that whole little airplane submarine bomb business.  As such a thing was certainly not possible the fact that they did it must be corrected.  I understand the uniform issue will be discussed also.

Hey River, I will be forwarding the contact information for Lawrence Livermore and Sandia national laboratories.  I hear disturbing reports that they have not picked up the new thinking regarding the futility of thinking.  There is tinkering with the laws of physics going on over there and I believe you need to have a look!

Also, in support of your crusade to stifle any hint of progress with an unending torrent of questions, objections and irrelevant minutiae, I have begun a survey of things around the house that couldn't possibly be.  Despite Mrs. aveighters vociferous objections and as she was unable to satisfactorily explain the operation of the microwave to me, I tossed it.  I've always been suspicious of the thing, always seemed so bloody improbable to me.  One more thing that couldn't possible work.

[RAZOR]

Actually I pitched this idea to my congressman and they are looking into the National Guard aspect. It would put total control of CAP under National Guard Control. The infrastructure is already in place to support it, Finance, Operations, Communications, and so on. The Air Force Dollars supplied to support CAP would be under the control of the local ANG Base Comptroller and State Director Jobs would be no more.

As for the Civilian pilots there would be an interview process by designated ANG  Personnel designated to run the program and interview potential Pilots to support the program from the pilot perspective to include Cadet O-Rides, ROTC and all SAR/DR. This is what the ANG does in the state mission, as for federal missions those would be handled on a case by case basis much like the NOC does now. You select from the pilot pool with appropriate QUALS to support that mission and you move forward.

It would eliminate the "CLUB" mentality and mandate core values and eliminate the corporate corruption that exists today.

[RiverAux]

I am not saying that such a relationship is a horrible idea.  It might even be an idea I could get behind if a specific plan was laid on the table. 

What I am saying is that it just can't be done without changing federal and state laws and this wonderful world just won't come about by changing who in the AF handles CAP issues. 

Such laws can be changed as Razor suggested and I laid out what some of those changes might have to be. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

State Directors would probably still exist under a different title, probably under the "Guard Technician" program.

CAP-RAP is easy.  Any officer can sign a point voucher, including NG officers.  I have signed AF personnel vouchers as an Army officer, and they still got points.

In the Army the form is a DA 1351-2, I forget what the AF form number is.

The BoG would still operate as an oversight body, but I think out of necessity would include more ANG officers.  That would be SECAF's call.  CAP structure would remain intact.

The state AG would run our Title 36 missions, and Title 10 missions as the agent of the USAF. 

The National Guard can be activated with a phone call to the governor. CAP should be activated under the same conditions.  Right now, a using agency has to jump through more hoops than a circus bear to get a CAP plane up.

[JayT]

But what happens if our guys don't come when called?

[Dustoff]

I'm not so sure about the CAP-RAP part of it.  As reservists, even though we're "assigned" to a particular wing, we are an asset for the entire region.  We can easily go to other regions, just have to get approval through the chain of command.  How would that function under the ANG?  For the Graded SAR-EVALS the current procedure is to utilize evaluators from other states in that region.  If I travel to another state, do I have to be put on Title 10 orders?  Who funds them?  AF or the states.  Which state?

Food for thought (from my view)

Jim

[isuhawkeye]

But what happens if our guys don't come when called?

If we cant do the jobs we claim to do, then what good are we in the first place?

[RiverAux]

But what happens if our guys don't come when called?

Absolutely nothing.  Because even if this idea were feasible, we would still be the same civilian volunteers that we are now.  You would not be anymore under the "command" of the Air National Guard than we are of the Air Force today.  As long as Kach thinks this can be done without changing federal law, then the existing federal law that says we are civilians will still stand. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'm not so sure about the CAP-RAP part of it.  As reservists, even though we're "assigned" to a particular wing, we are an asset for the entire region.  We can easily go to other regions, just have to get approval through the chain of command.  How would that function under the ANG?  For the Graded SAR-EVALS the current procedure is to utilize evaluators from other states in that region.  If I travel to another state, do I have to be put on Title 10 orders?  Who funds them?  AF or the states.  Which state?

Food for thought (from my view)

Jim

If it is an AF evaluated exercise, the funding is Title 10.  I don't see an issue here.

[JohnKachenmeister]

But what happens if our guys don't come when called?

You will never be called again.  They can't depend on you.

[JayT]

But what happens if our guys don't come when called?

You will never be called again.  They can't depend on you.

Okay, let me rephrase sir.

What if I get called, and I can't leave my midterm? What if I can't leave my job? What if I'm sick?

No matter who we 'work' for, ES wise, we're still civilian volunteers.

[jeders]

But what happens if our guys don't come when called?

You will never be called again.  They can't depend on you.

Okay, let me rephrase sir.

What if I get called, and I can't leave my midterm? What if I can't leave my job? What if I'm sick?

No matter who we 'work' for, ES wise, we're still civilian volunteers.

Like Kach said, you probably won't be called again.

There was a a squadron commander somewhere who got called late at night to activate his squadron. His wife picked up and told them not to call anymore. The next time that squadron had to be activated, the CC was the last to know.

[isuhawkeye]

Its this simple. 

1. Determine your mission
2. Determine a 3-5 deep staffing model
3. Recruit to staff that many personel in each position
4.  Establish a training program to ensure the deployment of standardised resources
5.  Run the missions

Re-evaluate consistantly

6.  Have a contingency plan utilizing mutual aid resources (surrounding CAP entities) to back fill during difficult times. 

[mikeylikey]

But what happens if our guys don't come when called?

You will never be called again.  They can't depend on you.

Okay, let me rephrase sir.

What if I get called, and I can't leave my midterm? What if I can't leave my job? What if I'm sick?

No matter who we 'work' for, ES wise, we're still civilian volunteers.

Like Kach said, you probably won't be called again.

There was a a squadron commander somewhere who got called late at night to activate his squadron. His wife picked up and told them not to call anymore. The next time that squadron had to be activated, the CC was the last to know.

So the spouse may make a mistake, and you punish the whole SQD.  (Not you, I know....I mean the alerting Officer).  That makes a lot of sense.   

[isuhawkeye]

As an alerting officer, and IC.

If it is difficult or challenging to get a hold of you I will stop calling. 

God only knows that I don't want to be up at 0 dark 30, and my wife has no sympathy for your wife. 

If you want to be "Just a Volunteer" I will treat you like one.  I will call you when I have envelopes that need to be licked for the PTA.


If you want to be a professional I will rely on you as though you were a professional (Paid or not).  That doesn't mean I expect you to be available all hours of every day.  I do however expect that you function as a part of a professional organization,

[JohnKachenmeister]

But what happens if our guys don't come when called?

You will never be called again.  They can't depend on you.

Okay, let me rephrase sir.

What if I get called, and I can't leave my midterm? What if I can't leave my job? What if I'm sick?

No matter who we 'work' for, ES wise, we're still civilian volunteers.

In spite of the generally argumentive tone that I pick up on from your posts, you have raised an interesting point.

Most states have laws similar to the federal veterans re-employment law protecting Guard troops called to state active duty.  I believe if we were assigned to the Guard and called up by the governor under Title 36, that we would fall under these laws.  Some states have already specifically included CAP as part of their Guard structure and have extended job protection to us.