Cadets not allowed to fly other cadets. Period

Started by Eclipse, January 11, 2009, 05:30:27 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Timbo

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 13, 2009, 12:02:18 AM
Honestly, I don't see a case of a cadet crew joyriding. Anyone with a license is usually pretty aware of the responsibility. There is a major difference between the younger teenager who had little more than a solo and a few hours, and an 18 year old with a CFI. The one dedicated and motivated to go that far certainly has the brains to realize the responsibilities.

Yikes.... when I was younger, and my friends and I would sign out of the Aero Club we took to the skies like allstars, and (hate to show my immaturity) goofed around.  When I look back on that......it was stupid, and dangerous and I am lucky no one got hurt.  Teens are teens and when an older adult is not around, it is common for this same thing to happen.  Not all teens are immature like I was, and they are better than I am in this regard.  There are also adults that should not even be allowed within 100 feet of an airplane, let alone drive a car.  

Peer pressure is a dangerous thing......for everyone.  I think that may have been the idea behind not allowing a Cadet to fly other Cadets.

Listen......I was stupid in my youth.  Everyone has that problem.  That is why we allow mistakes to happen and children and young adults to get off easier than if they were older.  

I would say that maturity doe not necessarily equate to the dedication it took to become a CFI.  My CFI was 47 and acted more immature than I did at 16.          

Hawk200

Quote from: Timbo on January 12, 2009, 11:57:56 PM
Here is another (albeit unnecessary) way to relate this to other things in CAP.  The USAF stops funding a Cadets O-Rides when they turn 18.  So to the Air Force an 18 year old Cadet is in a totally different category of membership than say a 17 year old.  I don't find that fair at all, and have not for a very long time.

What does this mean?  Not totally sure, but seems like someone on the AF side decided 18 year old CADET members don't have the same rights as Cadets younger.

Interesting. Not only doesn't have the rights of a senior, but also less than younger cadets. It's definitely discriminatory.

Quote from: Timbo on January 12, 2009, 11:57:56 PMPerhaps it was a personal feeling  from the person who proposed this regulation.  They were most likely a pilot who believed Cadets flying was outrageous, or they were taken off a plane and replaced by a Cadet with more experience, and they felt slighted.  This is an all too common scenario!

Wouldn't surprise me. At a previous unit, I had a cadet that truly had a gift for DFing. Definitively, best in the unit, I would be surprised if there was anyone in the wing, much less the region, with the same skill.

If I was running an incident, needed a DFer, and someone told me "We'll get anyone you want, no matter where in the world they are. If they're Airborne qualified, we'll strap a chute on 'em, and toss 'em out the back so they can land right in front of your command post so you don't have to get 'em from the airport", I would give them his name.

We had a senior in the unit that always claimed to be the DF goddess, but couldn't deliver like he could. I would pick his brain sometimes, and would learn a little bit, but it would make this senior livid. She griped to the commander one time, and he replied, "He's better than you". Seems like if she ran anything, that cadet would rarely get any DF time. So I think this is definitely a legitimate suspicion.

Cadets are younger, but too many think that means inferior. That is wrong, and goes against the teamwork that we attempt to teach.

Quote from: stillamarine on January 13, 2009, 12:05:03 AM
I thought there was an article awhile ago about an all cadet aircrew that had a find down in PR. All 3 were over 18 but still cadets.

I seem to remember such a thing as well. It was in the Volunteer?. If I remember properly, the PIC was 19, and I believe was a cadet light col. Don't recall details on the rest of the crew.

Hawk200

Quote from: Timbo on January 13, 2009, 12:14:08 AMYikes.... when I was younger, and my friends and I would sign out of the Aero Club we took to the skies like allstars, and (hate to show my immaturity) goofed around.  When I look back on that......it was stupid, and dangerous and I am lucky no one got hurt.  Teens are teens and when an older adult is not around, it is common for this same thing to happen.  Not all teens are immature like I was, and they are better than I am in this regard.

How many of you had CFI's, and wore a uniform? I would bet none. I accept if one did, but I have serious doubt if it was more than one.

Quote from: Timbo on January 13, 2009, 12:14:08 AMThere are also adults that should not even be allowed within 100 feet of an airplane, let alone drive a car.  

Agreed, and an indicator that young should not equate to irresponsible. There are dozens maybe even hundreds of stories of teenagers in the news that have made positive contributions to their communities, or have touched lives in manners beyond imagining. Lizzie Palmer comes to mind, in the "touching lives" aspect ("Remember Me", look for it on Youtube). Others have provided for the poor and homeless, showing compassion with great responsibility for people far beyond themselves.

Quote from: Timbo on January 13, 2009, 12:14:08 AMPeer pressure is a dangerous thing......for everyone.

No, not unless you allow it. I experienced the pressure to drink, smoke, do drugs while I was a teenager. I didn't give in to it. I ignored those that attempted to exert it on me, or eliminated their ability to do so, by eliminating them from any place of meaning in my life. Indirectly, they would have done me harm. As such, they held no meaning to me.

Quote from: Timbo on January 13, 2009, 12:14:08 AMListen......I was stupid in my youth.  Everyone has that problem.  That is why we allow mistakes to happen and children and young adults to get off easier than if they were older.

Stupidity doesn't equal ignorance. I was stupid too on a lot of my decisions. I'd probably be a lot further along now if I hadn't been. But it isn't limited to youth.

Quote from: Timbo on January 13, 2009, 12:14:08 AMI would say that maturity doe not necessarily equate to the dedication it took to become a CFI.  My CFI was 47 and acted more immature than I did at 16.

Sounds like a mid life crisis or something. But it could be in how that individual is treated. Treat people like children, and they won't disappoint you in their actions. Low expectations have less than optimal results.

Overall, this idea that youth are inherently irresponsible is wrong, and needs to be eliminated. There are cadets I would trust with my life. I have fellow soldiers that I wouldn't. Age isn't really a factor.

Timbo

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 13, 2009, 12:50:43 AM
Overall, this idea that youth are inherently irresponsible is wrong, and needs to be eliminated. There are cadets I would trust with my life. I have fellow soldiers that I wouldn't. Age isn't really a factor.

So true.  In the Silver Medal of Valor thread there are references to Cadets that risked life and limb to save another person.  Honestly, there are many (adult and child) that would run away from a dangerous situation instead of helping out another person. 


nesagsar

Quote from: Timbo on January 13, 2009, 01:58:27 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on January 13, 2009, 12:50:43 AM
Overall, this idea that youth are inherently irresponsible is wrong, and needs to be eliminated. There are cadets I would trust with my life. I have fellow soldiers that I wouldn't. Age isn't really a factor.

So true.  In the Silver Medal of Valor thread there are references to Cadets that risked life and limb to save another person.  Honestly, there are many (adult and child) that would run away from a dangerous situation instead of helping out another person. 



I've known people in both scouts and CAP who by all logic should have recieved several awards and decorations that never were awarded, mostly because they never told anyone about thier heroism until years later.

jimmydeanno

Quote from: davidsinn on January 12, 2009, 11:41:56 PM
Quote from: Ned on January 12, 2009, 09:44:33 PM
in rare cases, one can be a senior member under the age of 18,

Say what? ???

3-2. Requirements for Membership. All applicants for senior membership in CAP must be accepted by the unit and higher headquarters and must meet the following criteria:
b. Age. Be at least 18 years of age or be a member of the Armed Forces on active duty at any age.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Duke Dillio

I guess this puts a damper on Col. Chazell's dream of seeing an all cadet mission aircrew....

jimmydeanno

^Ironically last year there was a feature article in Volunteer about PRWG and their only distress find in a couple decades being done by an all cadet aircrew...
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Eclipse

Quote from: jimmydeanno on January 13, 2009, 01:05:57 PM
^Ironically last year there was a feature article in Volunteer about PRWG and their only distress find in a couple decades being done by an all cadet aircrew...

All cadet?   I know they have a high-profile cadet pilot, but didn't catch that it was all cadet.

"That Others May Zoom"

SarDragon

Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

N Harmon

Quote from: SarDragon on January 14, 2009, 08:14:01 AM
All cadet!

Here! Page 10.

???

Looks like a cadet MP and two seniors to me...

Puerto Rico aircrew members, from left, Capt. Jessika Pazol, Cadet Lt. Col. Jose Rafols and 1st Lt. Luadys Rodriguez, stand in front of the CAP Cessna 182 Skylane they used to find the wreckage of a Partenavia Spa P.68C that crashed between Aguadilla and Ponce.

I would also like to point out that cadets over 18 can operate CAP aircraft with non-cadet passengers, but can't operate CAP cars, trucks, and vans with any passengers.
NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron

Eclipse

Quote from: SarDragon on January 14, 2009, 08:14:01 AM
All cadet!

Here! Page 10.

Reading is Fundamental - that's clearly one cadet and two seniors, and its indicated as such in the caption.


The odds of finding three, over-18 cadets, who are qualified aircrew, (whatever the rating) in any setting other than NESA is statistically zero.

"That Others May Zoom"

NIN

#52
Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2009, 03:44:16 PM
The odds of finding three, over-18 cadets, who are qualified aircrew, (whatever the rating) in any setting other than NESA is statistically zero.

To borrow a phrase from Smithsonia over in the "largest save" thread: "Is that based on independent research you actually did, or are you guessing?"

Because I'm here to tell you, I've seen your statistical zero more than once. Which leads me to question your knowledge of stats.  ;D

(I learned years ago in a college stats class that a) I don't know squat about stats; and b) what I think I know in a statistical situation is probably wrong, so consult a trained professional when attempting to do statistical heavy lifting.  Much later, I worked with a guy who had a PhD in statistics and he said "Stats are easy!" to which I replied "For you, maybe.  Can I put you on retainer?"  So whenever someone starts talking stats, I'm pretty certain they're not correct.  Unless, of course, you have a PhD in stats or do that stuff for a living every day..)

1984's Operation Wolverine (fully cadet-run SAR), Grosse Ile Airport, Michigan.   We had an ALL-CADET, ALL-FEMALE mission aircrew fly SAR sorties.   I'm going out on a limb here when I say that the MP was  C/Lt Col Mary Read and her two compatriots in the cockpit were C/Maj Sue Bray and C/Maj Aletha King.  My remembery is getting a little fuzzy, but I was  in Ground Ops during that mission and there were TV cameras crawling all over the place (that was also during the Detroit Gran Prix that year, and the Goodyear blimp was staging out of that airport, so we had this big silver thing monstrosity moored next to our mission base burping from the balloonet vents all night long.. that was interesting)

Since Operation Wolverine was a yearly event, I seem to recall subsequent instances of all-cadet aircrews, but mostly in an anecdotal way. I was present and watched the media circus surrounding that particular events in 1984, and recall additional instances of that occurring, which invariably brought up the "yeah, but have you had an all-cadet, all-female mission aircrew?"....  I haven't been to an Op Wolverine in at least 10 years, and even before that I only hit them occasionally.  Maybe some of my comrades in GLR can punch up my remembery a little here....
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

caprr275

2 years ago at Operation Wolverine we had a Cadet as the mission pilot, a cadet (myself) as scanner and a flight officer as observer. The funny thing is that the FO was younger than both of the cadets and had been in cap much less time.

NIN fly up for the 2009 Op Wolverine. its still a blast

Short Field

#54
Quote from: Hawk200 on January 13, 2009, 12:50:43 AM
Overall, this idea that youth are inherently irresponsible is wrong, and needs to be eliminated. There are cadets I would trust with my life. I have fellow soldiers that I wouldn't. Age isn't really a factor.

You can make the exact same argument against States that have graduated driver's licenses.  This is from AAA:
Comprehensive graduated driver licensing (GDL) systems ease teens into driving through a combination of mandatory practice and limited driving at night and with peer passengers. Comprehensive GDL systems have been shown to reduce fatal crashes involving 16-year-old drivers by an average of 38 percent, according to a 2007 report from the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety and Johns Hopkins University. AAA is a leading advocate for teen driver safety issues and remains committed to encouraging states to improve upon their graduated driver licensing (GDL) systems.

Age is a factor.
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

Short Field

http://harvardmagazine.com/2008/09/the-teen-brain.html

Here is one of the key sections:  Human and animal studies, Jensen and Urion note, have shown that the brain grows and changes continually in young people—and that it is only about 80 percent developed in adolescents. The largest part, the cortex, is divided into lobes that mature from back to front. The last section to connect is the frontal lobe, responsible for cognitive processes such as reasoning, planning, and judgment. Normally this mental merger is not completed until somewhere between ages 25 and 30—much later than these two neurologists were taught in medical school.

SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

Eclipse

#56
Quote from: NIN on January 14, 2009, 04:09:21 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2009, 03:44:16 PM
The odds of finding three, over-18 cadets, who are qualified aircrew, (whatever the rating) in any setting other than NESA is statistically zero.

To borrow a phrase from Smithsonia over in the "largest save" thread: "Is that based on independent research you actually did, or are you guessing?"

Because I'm here to tell you, I've seen your statistical zero more than once. Which leads me to question your knowledge of stats.  ;D

"Statistically zero" does not equal "zero", it means it happens on rare occasion, but not often enough to change policy, or even generally be concerned about - those rare occasions can be treated as anomalies by local decision makers.

If you have to reach back 25 years for an example, you're making my point.

What may or may not have happened when the year had different leading digits doesn't make a lot of difference in today's CAP.  I've got photos of CAP helicopters, scuba teams, water rescue, and members hanging IV's in the field.

Yay for them, but don't use those pictures on the recruting posters.

I don't have access to the numbers, but I'd still be willing to bet that if you took the total number of qualified cadet aircrew vs. total number of cadets nationally, the number would be at or less than 1% (i.e "0").

"That Others May Zoom"

SarDragon

Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2009, 03:44:16 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on January 14, 2009, 08:14:01 AM
All cadet!

Here! Page 10.

Reading is Fundamental - that's clearly one cadet and two seniors, and its indicated as such in the caption.


The odds of finding three, over-18 cadets, who are qualified aircrew, (whatever the rating) in any setting other than NESA is statistically zero.

So sue me. I just looked up the article and posted a link. Apparently I wasn't the only one who thought it was an all cadet crew. Now we all know that it wasn't.

[snippy remark redacted]
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Hawk200

Quote from: Short Field on January 14, 2009, 05:31:16 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on January 13, 2009, 12:50:43 AM
Overall, this idea that youth are inherently irresponsible is wrong, and needs to be eliminated. There are cadets I would trust with my life. I have fellow soldiers that I wouldn't. Age isn't really a factor.

You can make the exact same argument against States that have graduated driver's licenses.  This is from AAA:
Comprehensive graduated driver licensing (GDL) systems ease teens into driving through a combination of mandatory practice and limited driving at night and with peer passengers. Comprehensive GDL systems have been shown to reduce fatal crashes involving 16-year-old drivers by an average of 38 percent, according to a 2007 report from the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety and Johns Hopkins University. AAA is a leading advocate for teen driver safety issues and remains committed to encouraging states to improve upon their graduated driver licensing (GDL) systems.

Age is a factor.

So what kind of license is there at age 18? You can get a pilot license at 16, but I'm not talking about 16 year old cadets flying a plane. The individual is going to be at least 18. So would the rest of the crew.

Age is not a factor when it comes to the ability to be responsible. You're providing a perfect example of my point: That youth is not inherently irresponsible, even though many think it is. If that were true, we would have far more juvenile criminals than we do.

Quote from: Short Field on January 14, 2009, 06:21:26 PMHere is one of the key sections:  Human and animal studies, Jensen and Urion note, have shown that the brain grows and changes continually in young people—and that it is only about 80 percent developed in adolescents. The largest part, the cortex, is divided into lobes that mature from back to front. The last section to connect is the frontal lobe, responsible for cognitive processes such as reasoning, planning, and judgment. Normally this mental merger is not completed until somewhere between ages 25 and 30—much later than these two neurologists were taught in medical school.

So the brain isn't fully developed until later in life. Funny, the military trains personnel a few years below the "merger" to do all sorts of things, like handling and firing weapons, work on machinery, drive vehicles, etc, and has very few problems related to their undeveloped brains.

Many pilots are trained well below the age of 30, in both military and civilian sectors. People can drive at 16. If they're responsible enough to handle a car appropriately, they're responsible enough to handle an airplane. It's perfectly logical to distrust someone with an airplane, if they can't treat driving properly.

There's nothing in the article that says anything to the effect of "don't trust anyone under 25".  It's just not there. And if you're using that to attempt to justify not trusting cadets or other people, it's wrong. If you don't like cadets, say so. But don't try to paint them as being incapable of responsibility.

Short Field

Bell curve ... Bud Holland is a perfect example of one end of it.   We are talking judgement and resistance to peer pressure - not training and discipline.  All CAP is doing is avoiding a situation where you have an airplane full of Cadets flying without a Senior Member aboard.  Just don't claim age is not a factor in people taking unjustified risks.  The automotive insurance industry definitely believes age is a factor.  Yes, the military does train a lot of young people to do a lot of high tech and and high risk things.  Last time I checked, the military was a highly disciplined environment with fairly regimented and unforgiving training regime - not counting the Bud Hollands of the world.
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640