Cadets Involvement in SAR

Started by capchiro, October 13, 2005, 10:22:56 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

capchiro

I read that 99% of all ELT searches are non-distress and 1% are distress related.  Does that really qualify for search and rescue?  Also, CAP doesn't really support search and rescue for cadets, which really sends a mixed signal to cadets and seniors both.  Having worked non-distress and distress situations, I am have mixed feelings about allowing cadets to do more than scene security on distress missions.  sometimes, they are pretty ugly,  Unfortunately there are not many finds that have survivors and the ones that do, probably require more advanced medical care than our cadets are qualified to perform.  I appreciate the excitement generated by SAR, but it does provide a deliema for squadrons, seniors, cadets, and squadron commanders.  Unfortunately, a few years ago, we had some cadets and maybe some younger senior members that were responding to ELT searches with blue lights and speeding...This was not the image we want to display.  As mentioned earlier, some cadets go out to ELT searches that are UDF missions with 72 hour packs, including hunting knives, etc.  If one looks at the equipment requirements for UDF type missions, one will find that this is overkill.  Perhaps a better use for the money spent on equipment would be to spend it on flight lessons or FAA private pilot ground school training instead.  After all, we are an aviation oriented outfit and we are to encourage avaition careers and interests....Just my humble opinion, as usual....     
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

Matt

*sighs*

I would have to beg to differ on certain points.  Not on the fact that most crashes are quite grizzly, the mainly are.

Qualified for SAR, yes, qualified as SAR, no.  SAR is not only ELT searches, but also incorporated missing persons.  And please don't forget our reinstatement of Disaster Relief.  The gruesome-twosome hurricanes have brought back a major part of ES, that being Disaster Relief (DR).  DR in a sense incorporates SAR, or limited SAR value (i.e. going door-to-door ensuring that personnel are alright after a hurricane).

Sending cadets out on the missions.  I'm not sure how you train personnel but I would as soon have a cadet GTM or UDF Team Member as their SM counter-part.  I cannot speak for other units, groups, or wings, but I know that we train our cadets JUST as well as our senior members because of the fact they the may be placed on alert and respond to missions.

As for a blue light or a red light special - I know for certain my squadron commander would kick my A** from Wisconsin to Georgia if myself or the GT would use one; furthermore, he'd be just in doing so.  I'd be lying if I said I hadn't heard of occasions, I have, and I don't much like that image portrayed on CAP, same as you.

ELT searches are over 99% of the time non-emergency.  The occasion that it may be crucial is that where there are survivors, however, statistics, sadly are not in that favor.  They really do not deserve an on-board red (blue) light special.  If an officer volunteers to give you one because they feel there is imminent danger, then I would say follow them, it's a better bet.

On the subject of medical training.  50/50 shot at a senior being more and better trained than a cadet.  It's not a real good basis to say that SM's have more medical training than cadets.  Well, as a figurative question, what if there was an 18 year old cadet who was also a National Guardsman, who, on one weekend a month was a Corpman, I'd count Battle Field medicine a smidge higher than my friend who is just under being an EMT who is a SM.

As for the "Rambo" knives on missions.  Nope.  I'd have to say leave 'em at home or take 'em to scout camp.  Here in the real world, we aren't sleighing Charlie.  I have a nice Ka-Bar in which I use as a pizza cutter, I kid you not.  I have only seriously carried it when I was on a scout trek in New Mexico (Philmont).  I won't lie; I do have it in my bag for the more than rare occasion it may be needed, but that's where it stays and I have yet to take it out or don it in the field.

72hr Gear on UDF missions.  Perhaps training of personnel to use common sense is necessary.  Ok, if you're going on a SAREX which is UDF based, go nuts, but if you're getting the nice 11PM call, get your uniform on, grab your "go" bag and well... go.



As you can see by my signature, I am a cadet.  I take to heart someone saying that I cannot do something simply because I am a cadet.  I understand that there are limitations in certain quals, and that there is a reason for such (i.e. IC, AL, etc.), but I have busted my rear earning my ratings and anyone who has trained with me would most likely concur with that.  I am a goof, but when it comes to this business I'd like to say that I keep my focus and know how to get a job done.  Cadet or Senior alike, if you have earned a rating, then you have, in theory, demonstrated the knowledge, ability, and charisma to carry out the mission at hand.

Sincerely,

Matt Kopp, c/2d Lt, CAP
WI-002, c/DOS
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

Pace

As a former cadet who was a fully rated and mission qualified ground branch director, I couldn't agree more.  If you've gone through the training and proven your abilities to a set standard and demonstrate a certain level of maturity (team leader's discretion), then you're set to go in my book.  In fact, the more I deal with senior members on ground teams, the more I find I prefer cadets.  Cadets know how to listen; mostly anyway.  Crusty 40-50 year old senior member lieutenant ground team trainees (or God forbid GTL trainees) think their age makes them more qualified than a 25 year old Operations Section Chief with 5-10 years of experience in CAP ES, so they tend not to listen ("I know what I'm doing..." kind of attitude).

There are times when CAP has no control over what the minimum age will be.  For example, if we're working for FEMA, minimum age is 18.  No questions asked.  When the ball is in our court, however, I have no problem letting a fully qualified ground team member of any age on my team as long as they have the maturity to treat the mission seriously.
Lt Col, CAP

capchiro

I respectfully reserve the right to disagree, however, I do appreciate your enthusiasm and dedication.  I think you will find more combat medics in the senior program than in the cadet program, plus doctors, nurses, paramedics, and EMT's.  That being said, CAP first aid training is inadequate for actual life threatening emergenicies in the field of a disasterous nature.  Our first aid training is basically at the level to be able take care of each other if we are injured during training or on a mission and it is very basic.  I know some members have taken extensive medical first aid training, but that is not part of the required training and is not the standard.  Please forgive my feelings that SAR is not a substantial part of the CAP cadet program, but, when you have over thirty years experience in CAP, you come to see an overall picture of the program and what it truly offers the cadets and seniors.  It is a fantastic program and certainly helps develop mature, polite, intelligent, patriotic, self-reliant, self-disciplined, well-rounded young people.  The fact that if offers some direction and excitement to some cadets that "thrive" on SAR is a good thing, but, it is just not the basis of CAP and/or the CAP cadet program.  The Air Force is putting money into aircraft and various photographic/video equipment for disaster relief.  They are not putting money into SAR ground search equipment, unfortunately.  If you want a radio, chances are you will purchase one, if you want a 24/72 hour pack, you will buy it and stock it...this is just not a priority of the program...I could go on, and on, but you get my drift...now, with all of that being said, does anybody have any advice on where/how to find an ELP'er, since the company making them, isn't????  I know they say they have a new one on the way, but that has been the word for the last year.... I am truly one of you guys, but I want my cadets to know what the program is truly about and that SAR is just kind of an exciting side thing (for cadets), that is not a requirement and that they need to concentrate on leadership, aerospace education, morale leadership, and PT/testing, first and then as an option, and if they have the time, to work on SAR training.  I truly appreciate the dedicated cadets that work SAR and some of my best ground team members over the last 20 years have been cadets (after all, ever try to get a 40-50 year old out of bed at 11:00 p.m., and especially if there is an opportunity for that  cadet to miss school the next day...), but I digress....       
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

SarDragon

Regarding L-pers, they appear once in a while on eBay, but they are usually older models, often needing crystals for 121.775. Prices are sometimes unreasonable, with an old unit selling for more than the most recent new ones. Also, these units are frequently incomplete. I haven't seen any in a couple of months.

Currently, the company is not doing upgrade work on the older units, and limited repair. Click here for the latest from L-Tronics.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Chris Jacobs

I think that I need to add to this because this has been my big complaint in the past.  Not just in ES but in CAP in general.  i know that right off the bat that you can't trust every cadet in the whole nation to be up to the same level as the rest.  but many of the cadets that i work with are more qualified and better at what they do in ES than many senior members that i have met.  although on the same note i have many cadets under my comand that i would not trust to do much.  i think that cadets are a lot of the time over looked for what they can do and are not given credit for the jobs they can handle.  in my experiences cadets do not seem to be as welcomed into the ES program as much as i think they should.  a lot are very qualified at what they do, and expanding on the example above about the medical qualifications, i have a cadet that is currently working toward his EMT.  i don't know of to many senior members that even have that.  i know that in my squadron i hold much higher radio qualifications than many senior members, and a lot of the time come to me for help.  i think that cadets are also better in many circumstances because they are young and able bodies.  I know a lot of senior members with bad backs, or no real drive to go and sleep in the cold on the ground.  but i have never met a cadet with a bad back, or for some odd reason, a cadet that has ever complained too badly about the cold.  i know that personally i love getting out side in the morning and freezing a little as long as we are doing ES.  I think that cadets in general are sometimes overlooked by senior members as not being on the same level as them but i feel strongly that some cadets are more mature, smarter, and better at what they do than some senior members.  i also know that some senior members realize this and specifically give cadets a lot of power because they know the cadet will do the job right.  i appreciate these senior members and hope that more can learn from them and learn to use the endless pool of cadets for ES and many other important jobs in CAP.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

Xeno

Quotethink that I need to add to this because this has been my big complaint in the past.  Not just in ES but in CAP in general.  i know that right off the bat that you can't trust every cadet in the whole nation to be up to the same level as the rest.  but many of the cadets that i work with are more qualified and better at what they do in ES than many senior members that i have met.

Same here. The fact of the matter is, I have more cadets interested in SAR/ES then actually flying. I agree that cadets GTs should limited or regulated at least a little bit in the types of missions they perform, To be honest I don't really want my 13-15 year old cadets responding to fatalities, I don't want to put that pressure on them, I don't want them to have to see that. But, I believe it [the ES program] is necessary because, in the wake of disasters like Katrina I know that inevitably there may come a time when we don't have enough people on site to do the job. Some day we may have to use cadets. With this is mind, I want my people to be confident in knowing that they can get the job done and, as a leader, I want to be able to trust them to take the job seriously.
C/1st Lt. Josh Sims
C/CC SWR-AR-095

121.5 -- If you crash, we will dash...

Matt

here's a hum-dinger...

Just got an email from CAC (about a week ago) stating that an individual would like to see more cadet involvement in base ops and that they would like to see a draft for a selection process of cadets to work hand-in-hand with SM's.

I personally find this to be a confusing point for a couple reasons.  The first being that I was trained by SM's who believe in cadets in ES.  Second, around here cadets DO work hand-in-hand with seniors.


What do you all think....???
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

capchiro

Since ES is not mandated or supported for the cadet program, it is optional and each squadron defines the amount of ES available to their cadets, if any.  One of the above posts notes that the cadets would rather do ES than fly.  That is a problem for an Air Force supported organization that has aerospace and aviation as some of it's main goals.  If the cadet program is properly followed, it does not leave a lot of time for ES training for cadets, with the exception of weekend activities.  As far as natural disasters and non-natural disasters (perhaps as an aftermath to terrorism) there is a possibility of harm to cadets working around dangerous areas, etc.  The other big problem is the age variance of cadets, ie., 12 to 21.  How do you deny a mature 13 year old from participating on a mission, when you have an immature 16 year old participating because he has gotten qualified at a weekend encampment?  Unfortunately, the maturity of any cadet that enjoys or thinks ES is fun should be questioned.  Maturity tells us that wars, disasters and ES scenes are not fun or games...they are disasters and we all know that war has been called h*ll for a good reason.  Although ES is a necessity, it has never been deemed to be an integral part of the cadet program.  I have good reason to believe that taking cadets on ES missions ending up with downed aircraft and fatalities may turn them off of aviation...This is not what CAP or the Air Force wants....just my humble opinion.
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

CAPSeahawk8

Having been a cadet for six years in a squadron heavily involved in ES, I can say that cadet involvement in integral to the completion of the ES mission. The vast majority of ground personnel are cadets with the sprinkling of senior members. The majority of which are aircrews or mission base staff (of which i do all three). I was a cadet in a different time when we were about completing missions not protecting cadets from what the might see on the news. Sheltering them from everything will not protect them in the long run. I have several distress finds to my credit as a cadet, all of which involved fatalities. My fellow cadets had a much better time with the situation than most of the adults. We are so saturated by images of war and death that you would be surprised what the cadets can deal with..... life. As for time in the weekly meetings, there is not enough for ES. It requires to much time to become truly proficient in the tasks. My cadets now will train whenever and wherever they can to can more experience and qualifications. Twelve just earned there DR ribbon with V device for hurricane work. But thats my opinion...... I could be wrong........doubtful.


1st Lt Andy Wiggs
DOS/Cape Fear Comp Sqn
DOS/Group 3 NC Wing

Pylon

Not that I personally am adding my opinion here, but while discussing this issue, recall the AFI that organizes CAP:

Air Force Instruction 10-2701, Organization and Function of the Civil Air Patrol says in para 1.1.1.5:

Quote
CAP senior members are the primary personnel to respond to emergencies or disasters.

Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Horn229

but lets also remember we don't follow USAF regs. :)
NICHOLAS A. HORN, Senior Member, CAP

Chris Jacobs

Senior members may be the primary resource but why not get the cadets involved and utilize them in areas where we struggle to get senior members.  instead of turning down missions due to lack of personnel and not tapping the cadet pool.  we should tap both pools and take on every mission possible.  If AFRCC calls us and we have to call them back saying we don't have the man power today that is not right.  especially when not all of our ressources have been checked.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

flyguy06

I understand what Harry is saying. What you have to understand is different states do things differently. In Georgia. Most cadets are interested in Ground Team and ES OPS. and he is rifght. A lot of them wan to do this hooah Ranger stuff. They do go to encampments with enough gears to live inthe field for a month. I to think its uneccessary. What Harry istrying to say is ES was never ment to be such an integralpart of the cadet program. The cadet program is geared to teach youth to be leaders in an aerospace environment. If you read CAPM 52-16, very little of it is directed toward ES. Look at the National Cadet Competition. Nothing in it pertains to ES. Only recently have NCSA's been ES realted. Except for PJOC which was around when I was a cadet.

It really depends on what you want to emphasize in your unit. In my Squadron, Ilike to emphasize aviatiion. We have a ot of pilots and so we want to play on flight training. Most of ourcadets want to be pilots anyway. We really dont have the resources for a ground team anyway.

Its not that Seniors dont want cadets onmissions or think they are capable, but its just not really part of the cadet programaccording to CAPM 52-16. Its an "extra" thatt we allow cadets to participate in. A lot of these young people ae very impressionable as Iused to be when I was 18 years old.

Matt

Exactly, so we should impression them to continue in all of CAP's programs.  The CP does encompass all three missions, so why not allow them to train, even if it is on weekends, it's still a nice relief from the CP... then again, sometimes it may be too much of a relief  ;D
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

Chris Jacobs

I agree.  All of the cadets in my squadron that are heavily involved in ES are also the ones that are heavily involved in the cadet programs (color Guard, staff positions...).  Cadets should be allowed to participate as much as they want as long as they give their advancement in the cadet programs side nearly equal effort.  so if that means that they spend 10 hours a week on ES, then they need to spend at least 7 hours in the cadet programs for either studying or so on. 

I think another thing that needs to be realized is that ES is a great place for the cadets to test their skills that they learn in the cadet program.  they are put in situations where they have to have good communication skills, team work, and discipline.  they must take care of their gear or it will become nonfunctional.  it is no longer having to take care of your uniform or gear just to make it look good but it then has a function that it must be up kept for.  i think that ES is a great proving ground for all that they have learned in the cadet program.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

arajca

Quote from: Matt on November 18, 2005, 09:14:31 PM
Exactly, so we should impression them to continue in all of CAP's programs.  The CP does encompass all three missions, so why not allow them to train, even if it is on weekends, it's still a nice relief from the CP... then again, sometimes it may be too much of a relief  ;D

The CP does not encompass all three missions. Cadets may participate in all three missions, but the CP only encompasses the Cadet Program mission. As for allowing them to train, go for it. It provides valuable skills for them.

As for deploying cadets on ES missions, some of the restrictions come from the requesting agency(s). Because of some potential hazards, FEMA generally restricts personnel on their missions to people aged 18 and older. In my experience, most 18+ year old cadets are college students and generally are not available for deployment. Some law enforcement adn SAR agencies have the same rules.

flyguy06

Here is my opinion.
Should cadets be part of ES? yes, it is an activity that teaches leadership.

Does ES take away from the cadet program. Yes. The cadet program is an "AVIATION" based program, but you have units that dont do anything related to aviation. Its all ground team, first aid, rescue techniques, camping communications. Nothing dealing with flying airplanes or careers in aviation. Isn't that the main purpose of CAP? To train youth to be leaders in an aerospace environment.

Its cool to go out do all that camping and rapelling and stuff ( I am an Infantry officer, I do it all the time), but bottom line, thats NOT the main purpose of the cadet program like it or not.


Five-seveN

Personally, from my years in the ES field i have found that cadets are more willing to learn the ES field, and also have more time to do so. i have seen cadets shoot up threw the ES ranks with more skill than most seniors, why, its almost like they want it more. now on GTs... cadest should never lead a GT and if they do it would be with a senior. cadets on a find, and on/ in crash sites..... OK big deal, its a big car wreck,..... whats the issue, i work with other SAR orgs and one fire rescue team, and i have seen worse... cadets know what to do, they dint want to see whats in side, personally i think there are way too many soft liberal high ranking officers in CAP with no crust or back bone, lesson by a cadet... i have served on probably more missions then most cadets amid seniors and currently hold GBD in CTWG, AND IM GOOD. also I'm a cadet, cadets lead the way, they always do, they always will, this is a cadet program, if seniors want to get all soft and go south,... i know the Boy Scouts are lookin' for some new adults. thanks for helping me prove my point .....

C/Maj Russell

flyguy06

That was a very mature respnoce c/MAJ Russell. I see why you are the Top GTM guy