Honorable Service Award

[ol'fido]

I attend my weekly meetings and various other CAP activities, but I am a member of CAP 24/7. So is everyone who pays their dues. If somenone does something outside of their normal CAP duties, in uniform or out, that reflects the good character and ideals of CAP, then they should be recognized for it. In fact, there's a line like that in many of the medal citations I have read.

We are a CIVILIAN but UNIFORMED auxilliary of a military service, the United States Air Force. We are not an auxilliary of the police, fire, or EMS services honorable and dedicated as they may be. Our uniforms and customs/courtesies are rooted not just in regulations, but in traditions of the service.

I believe we must honor those traditions as we debate our uniform changes and regulations. We don't have to get stuck in the past but we should appreciate it and the men who forged those traditions...Our VETERANS.

So put me down as for this proposal.

I dont think that this point can be said any better!

Thank you, sir.

[RiverAux]

Maybe the way to handle this is to say here is your Honorable Service ribbon to put on your Civil Air Patrol uniform.  Thank you for your service, but please wear what you earn here in this organization on our uniform and put the active duty awards on your active duty uniform or in a nice shadow box.

I could get on board for this award if it was a required replacement for all military ribbons.  As proposed originally it would only be an option to wear it and I agree with CAP-USAF's comments in the last NB agenda where he decried having too many optional uniform items since after all, a uniform is supposed to be uniform. 

[jb512]

Maybe the way to handle this is to say here is your Honorable Service ribbon to put on your Civil Air Patrol uniform.  Thank you for your service, but please wear what you earn here in this organization on our uniform and put the active duty awards on your active duty uniform or in a nice shadow box.

I could get on board for this award if it was a required replacement for all military ribbons.  As proposed originally it would only be an option to wear it and I agree with CAP-USAF's comments in the last NB agenda where he decried having too many optional uniform items since after all, a uniform is supposed to be uniform. 

As a military auxiliary I wouldn't want it to be a requirement and I don't think it should be.  The idea is to have it as an option so military members could wear it on uniforms where their military awards are not an option.

[AlphaSigOU]

Considering that if you spend a long career in the military you're bound to have a lot of ribbons, and if you add CAP's ribbons to the mix one has a propensity of looking like a banana-republic dictator (to use the old cliche) I personally don't mind a single 'honorable military service award' for the CAP uniform.

Suggestion to add, if it is feasible:

Devices to distinguish branch of service served:

Bronze Eagle, Globe and Anchor - USMC service (Vanguard cat #7643980)
Gold Anchor - USN/USCG service (Vanguard cat #7704000)
5/16" Silver Star - USAF service (Vanguard cat #7701800)
5/16" Bronze Star - US Army service (Vanguard cat #7701600)

Only one device denoting branch of service may be worn; if the member has served in more than one service, they can only choose one of the above preferences for display on the ribbon.

Current (active/reserve/National Guard) or past service - no device other than branch of service identifier.
Retired military - small gold 3/16" star worn to wearer's right of branch clasp. If a retired identifier is worn, both the star and the service designator are spaced to present a centered, balanced appearance.

Honorable service defined: separation with a characterization of Honorable or General Under Honorable Conditions. If for multiple service periods, last separation must be under honorable conditions.

My two cents to this thread, before taxes take them all away...

[O-Rex]

The idea has merit.

If this goes through, I'd think that it would be for ribbon sets worn on the corp uniforms ONLY  or if worn on the AF style uniform it could be worn in lieu of mil awards, but not both.  If the purpose is to show mil service, IMHO wearing the proposed ribbon plus mil awards would be double-dipping.

That's what the proposal says...

Wear policy for this award would allow veterans to wear it in lieu of their military awards on the AF uniforms, meaning they would wear either their military ribbons or the CAP HMSA, but not both.

That works for a lot of us who go back & forth between corp and USAF style uniforms.

[SarDragon]

Considering that if you spend a long career in the military you're bound to have a lot of ribbons, and if you add CAP's ribbons to the mix one has a propensity of looking like a banana-republic dictator (to use the old cliche) I personally don't mind a single 'honorable military service award' for the CAP uniform.

Suggestion to add, if it is feasible:

Devices to distinguish branch of service served:

Bronze Eagle, Globe and Anchor - USMC service (Vanguard cat #7643980)
Gold Anchor - USN/USCG service (Vanguard cat #7704000)
5/16" Silver Star - USAF service (Vanguard cat #7701800)
5/16" Bronze Star - US Army service (Vanguard cat #7701600)

Only one device denoting branch of service may be worn; if the member has served in more than one service, they can only choose one of the above preferences for display on the ribbon.

Current (active/reserve/National Guard) or past service - no device other than branch of service identifier.
Retired military - small gold 3/16" star worn to wearer's right of branch clasp. If a retired identifier is worn, both the star and the service designator are spaced to present a centered, balanced appearance.

Honorable service defined: separation with a characterization of Honorable or General Under Honorable Conditions. If for multiple service periods, last separation must be under honorable conditions.

My two cents to this thread, before taxes take them all away...

That is an OUTSTANDING approach!

[Hawk200]

Devices to distinguish branch of service served:

Bronze Eagle, Globe and Anchor - USMC service (Vanguard cat #7643980)
Gold Anchor - USN/USCG service (Vanguard cat #7704000)
5/16" Silver Star - USAF service (Vanguard cat #7701800)
5/16" Bronze Star - US Army service (Vanguard cat #7701600)

In a way, sounds kind of lame for the Air Force and Army, two of the branches that CAP generally deals with the most get the smallest indicators. Bronze EGA! Gold anchor! Silver Star? Bronze Star?

I could concur with Bronze EGA. For Navy, I'd go with a bronze anchor. Gold is higher than silver when it comes to attachments. Army: Bronze star as mentioned.

For the Air Force, just to drive home the point that we're Air Force associated, I'd go with a gold frame. It makes the ribbon stand out more, and for Air Force service, I think it ought to. Just an idea. Maybe add a silver star, too, just for the fish.

Personally, I don't see a problem with multiple attachments, I honestly don't see most people getting more than a couple. Even with three and a frame, it wouldn't really be too busy.

[Cecil DP]

Just the ribbon will do. Adding gizmo's for branch, really makes CAP look ridiculous

[SaBeR33]

I wouldn't favor military ribbons for actions taken for something not related to duty either. 

By definition any organization is a separate entity and it just makes no sense to give awards for actions taken outside of the context of the organization giving the award.  Once you start down that slippery slope its hard to stop. 

Say what? That makes no sense. Off duty actions don't count? When in the Air Force, a lot of off duty actions were accounted for on my performance report. It was the "whole person" concept. One of my decorations is solely for volunteer service outside my normal duties. You telling me that it's worthless? If not, what specifically are you saying?

The military wants to give decs for off duty stuff. It shows that we are still part of our communities, and not a microcosm. Limiting to on duty only is essentially blowing off everything else, giving the impression that only the military counts. Bad way to go when you want the support of the public. How many times have you seen something on the news that a military member did, and a comment is made that "that person should get a medal"?

Out of curiousity, how many decs have you recieved for actions "outside" your duties? Would you have the conviction to decline any referencing something you didn't do at work?

I guess RiverAux has never heard of the Airman's Medal: http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=7769. It has a counterpart in the Soldier's Medal where they're both awarded for acts of heroism not involving combat nor is it allowed for acts done in the performance of the servicemember's duty. So should an Airman who rescues someone from a burning building (an act that garnered a SrA one many years ago http://www.airforcetimes.com/legacy/new/0-292925-615248.php) not count as something that should be recognized by a military service award?

[AlphaSigOU]

Normal silver or bronze star as worn on our ribbons is 3/16"size (I think); the stars I proposed are the large stars worn by Navy/CG as repeat award designators. I'm pretty certain Vanguard might have more distinctive clasps that are not otherwise sown in their catalog to replace the AF/Army proposed designator.

[SaBeR33]

Considering that if you spend a long career in the military you're bound to have a lot of ribbons, and if you add CAP's ribbons to the mix one has a propensity of looking like a banana-republic dictator (to use the old cliche) I personally don't mind a single 'honorable military service award' for the CAP uniform.

Suggestion to add, if it is feasible:

Devices to distinguish branch of service served:

Bronze Eagle, Globe and Anchor - USMC service (Vanguard cat #7643980)
Gold Anchor - USN/USCG service (Vanguard cat #7704000)
5/16" Silver Star - USAF service (Vanguard cat #7701800)
5/16" Bronze Star - US Army service (Vanguard cat #7701600)

Only one device denoting branch of service may be worn; if the member has served in more than one service, they can only choose one of the above preferences for display on the ribbon.

Current (active/reserve/National Guard) or past service - no device other than branch of service identifier.
Retired military - small gold 3/16" star worn to wearer's right of branch clasp. If a retired identifier is worn, both the star and the service designator are spaced to present a centered, balanced appearance.

Honorable service defined: separation with a characterization of Honorable or General Under Honorable Conditions. If for multiple service periods, last separation must be under honorable conditions.

My two cents to this thread, before taxes take them all away...

Sounds pretty good to me. It would go well--like another poster mentioned--for those of us who go back and forth between AF-style and Corporate uniforms where military awards cannot be worn; maintaining two sets of ribbons gets expensive.

[PaulR]

Gold Anchor - USN/USCG service (Vanguard cat #7704000)

That is an OUTSTANDING approach!

I think so too, but PLEASE do not give us Coasties the same emblem as the Navy.  We are completely different branches with a bit of rivalry between us! 

Perhaps a Silver anchor for the Navy and a Gold Anchor for us Coasties!  That would be a compromise. 

[PaulR]

Sounds pretty good to me. It would go well--like another poster mentioned--for those of us who go back and forth between AF-style and Corporate uniforms where military awards cannot be worn; maintaining two sets of ribbons gets expensive.

That would be the wearer's prerogative and dime!

[BGNightfall]

Gold Anchor - USN/USCG service (Vanguard cat #7704000)

That is an OUTSTANDING approach!

I think so too, but PLEASE do not give us Coasties the same emblem as the Navy.  We are completely different branches with a bit of rivalry between us! 

Perhaps a Silver anchor for the Navy and a Gold Anchor for us Coasties!  That would be a compromise. 

Well, while I agree that the Navy shouldn't share an emblem with the Coasties, I would respectfully disagree with your proposal, HM1.

I personally believe the Navy should have the gold anchor!     And what rivalry are you talking about?  :angel:

[PaulR]

Well... since we were the first we should have the Gold! HM1 indeed!! The better 1/10th calls their Corpsmen E6s "HS1"  LOL 

Seriously... I thought that the official Navy colors were Silver and Blue.  Ours are Gold and blue.

[Gunner C]

Let's just have a ribbon - no need for extra bling.  If anyone wants to know which branch you were, they'll ask. 

[Always Ready]

^It will be a good conversation starter 

[cap235629]

BUMP

Has anything ever come of this?  I think that with the redesigns of the CSU going around, this would be an opportune time to add this EXCELLENT idea to the mix

[Short Field]

just when you think something has died a well deserved death.......

[Spike]

The problem will come with the AF-style uniforms, of course.

For those uniforms, the award would be redundant if the member chooses to wear any of their military awards.  (And every former military member has at least some.)

Unless the member chooses to wear this award in lieu of their military ribbons, it is just another piece of bling on the USAF-style uniforms.

What are the odds that a significant number of members currently wearing military ribbons on their AF-style uniforms will take them all off?

I have my guess.

What do you think?

(And, yes, I understand that this proposal will allow members to wear a military service designator on the corporate uniforms, which is not currently possible.  That is indeed a Good Thing, but it comes at a price -- more arguably useless bling on the AF style uniforms.  Do we want to pay that price?)

Unless the proposal is tied with a change that would forbid military ribbons on the AF-style uniform.  Just imagine the uproar.

However, the ribbon can be worn to show if the member is currently serving in or discharged/retired from the service.  We see a military member wearing military ribbons, then this ribbon and we can quickly discern that the member is current or former military.

I like the idea.  I do agree though that it is adding to the mess we already have.  Next people will want ribbons for serving in Americoprs or the Red cross.