C/AB Uniforms

[majdomke]

We are in CAWG and do something slightly similar. For new recruits, until they get a uniform, they wear plain black t-shirt with blue jeans. They will need the t-shirt eventually anyhow. Once they do have their uniform, we do wear with top button buttoned until promoted to C/Amn. It's not a tradition I started but the cadets seem to take pride in unbuttoning the top button upon promotion. It's part of the ceremony.

[JayT]

We are in CAWG and do something slightly similar. For new recruits, until they get a uniform, they wear plain black t-shirt with blue jeans. They will need the t-shirt eventually anyhow. Once they do have their uniform, we do wear with top button buttoned until promoted to C/Amn. It's not a tradition I started but the cadets seem to take pride in unbuttoning the top button upon promotion. It's part of the ceremony.

So you have a tradition of violating regulations at the very beginning of a cadets career in the spirite of 'I didn't start it........."

[Hawk200]

We are in CAWG and do something slightly similar. For new recruits, until they get a uniform, they wear plain black t-shirt with blue jeans. They will need the t-shirt eventually anyhow. Once they do have their uniform, we do wear with top button buttoned until promoted to C/Amn. It's not a tradition I started but the cadets seem to take pride in unbuttoning the top button upon promotion. It's part of the ceremony.

So you have a tradition of violating regulations at the very beginning of a cadets career in the spirite of 'I didn't start it........."

In all fairness, it isn't a violation of a regulation. There is nothing in 39-1 about the top button.

I've only ever seen three people in the military that wore the top button buttoned, and they were trying to be different. They were also the the same people that pegged pant legs. It was pretty obvious that they were trying to garner attention, and that attention was mostly negative.

In general, it's a uniformity thing. It does go against common practice of leaving it open. Having one group button it and another leaving it open is inconsistent, and inappropriate. It may not fall under the definition of hazing, but it is an attempt at elitism.

[Eclipse]

pegged pant legs

And that would be...?

[Ned]

Eclipse and Hawk are correct, Ned is wrong.

Boy, you'd think I would get that often enough at work. 

A verbal policy, verbal order are by normal useage like ICL's and exprire after 90 days (. . .).

Umm, what?

I must have missed that class.  Is the policy that "verbal policies expire in 90 days" a verbal or written policy?   

Remind me, where is that written down?

Oh wait . . .

[T]here is no regulation on verbal policies.

Nevermind.

How can a CC require cadet Jones to wear black t-shirts if cadet Jones was not told of the verbal policy? 

Ummm, by telling Cadet Jones to wear black t-shirts?

According to one former National Commander, a verbal order is only issued when a CC has no access to a typewriter or computer.

I guess that must be that former National Commander's policy.  Which he is certainly entitled to follow.

And it certainly makes sense that national, region, and wing commanders should issue written policies whenever feasible.  Because we all agree that policies - whether written or verbal - must be effectively communicated.  And most folks don't get to chat with the National Commander, so writing would probably be the best way to go.

But local unit commanders issue most of their policies verbally, because they can effectively communicate orally with unit members.  Of course, they can also write them down if they feel it is more appropriate.

Checking with several USAF Admin types, it's normal for a verbal order to expire after 90 days, however there is no regulation on this.

Well then, that must work very well for USAF Admin types.

A Squadron policy requiring black t-shirts for staff must be posted for all to see, which doesn't happen with verbal orders.

Non-concur.  A Squadron policy requiring black t-shirts must be communicated to all concerned.  That can be done in several ways, including a written posting, or simply telling everyone about the policy.

Ned Lee

[NC Hokie]

We are in CAWG and do something slightly similar. For new recruits, until they get a uniform, they wear plain black t-shirt with blue jeans. They will need the t-shirt eventually anyhow.

+1 for the same exact reason.  It also does a nice job of visually separating the new cadets from the visitors.

[Hawk200]

pegged pant legs

And that would be...?

Instead of blousing them, the pant leg is wrapped tight around the leg, usually by folding it, and tucking it into the boot. It's still expressly forbidden in 2903.

[majdomke]

So you have a tradition of violating regulations at the very beginning of a cadets career in the spirite of 'I didn't start it........."

So, if you could please direct me to the regulation that states top buttons are not to be buttoned in BDU's, I would appreciate it.

[Larry Mangum]

So you have a tradition of violating regulations at the very beginning of a cadets career in the spirite of 'I didn't start it........."

So, if you could please direct me to the regulation that states top buttons are not to be buttoned in BDU's, I would appreciate it.

It is not a violation, it is simply a unit tradition.  I would suggest that it be included in the squadron SOP though, because sooner or later some will challenge it and you need to be able to refer them to something other then a verbal  "Because, that's how we do it." 

It can prevent issues from blowing up. When we moved here from Washington, one of my cadets got into trouble because  he failed to salute the water fountain after getting a drink. The unit tradition was that this was done to drill customs and courtesies into them.  It was spelled out in an SOP, but he was never told of this until he violated the tradition and nor was he issued an SOP. 

I am not saying that I approve of somthing like that as a tradition, but it is no sillier than requiring the top button to be buttoned until their first promotion. But I do believe that if you are going to hold someone accountable, that it needs to be in written form, i.e. an SOP in this case.

BTW, the cadet who was chastised, had already earned the grade of C\SSgt at the time.

[D2SK]

So you have a tradition of violating regulations at the very beginning of a cadets career in the spirite of 'I didn't start it........."

So, if you could please direct me to the regulation that states top buttons are not to be buttoned in BDU's, I would appreciate it.

1LT Jon Domke,

If we are going to be purists...what's a 1LT ?  CAP has 1st Lt's. 

[Eclipse]

...one of my cadets got into trouble because  he failed to salute the water fountain after getting a drink. The unit tradition was that this was done to drill customs and courtesies into them.  It was spelled out in an SOP, but he was never told of this until he violated the tradition and nor was he issued an SOP.

Where are the ADULT leaders in this organization?

If I got wind one of my units was doing something like this, let alone actually publishing an SOP to that effect, there would be an immediate, direct conversation, and that SOP wouldn't be spoken of again.

[majdomke]

...

[majdomke]

It's the darn Army messing with me... too many years training with the Army will cause you start acting like them or even using their rank abbreviations... No insult intended to any of my Army brothers. Although I was AF, I trained with Army and was stationed with them overseas. Things have a tendency of wearing off on you over time...

Larry,
As for an SOP, yes we do have one. We also publish a Cadet Guide that includes that info. It's not like I made it up or anything, I questioned it myself when I started.

[lordmonar]

...one of my cadets got into trouble because  he failed to salute the water fountain after getting a drink. The unit tradition was that this was done to drill customs and courtesies into them.  It was spelled out in an SOP, but he was never told of this until he violated the tradition and nor was he issued an SOP.

Where are the ADULT leaders in this organization?

If I got wind one of my units was doing something like this, let alone actually publishing an SOP to that effect, there would be an immediate, direct conversation, and that SOP wouldn't be spoken of again.

And I assume that This Policy is actually published so that all your commanders understand your command philosophy.

[lordmonar]

Okay....I have a prime exapmple of an unwritten rule that we all follow.

Do you or do you not a salute Medal of Honor receipiant?

Cite the appropriate CAP, USAF, DOD or any other regulation.

[Rotorhead]

We are in CAWG and do something slightly similar. For new recruits, until they get a uniform, they wear plain black t-shirt with blue jeans. They will need the t-shirt eventually anyhow. Once they do have their uniform, we do wear with top button buttoned until promoted to C/Amn. It's not a tradition I started but the cadets seem to take pride in unbuttoning the top button upon promotion. It's part of the ceremony.

I find it amusing that everyone is so willing to bust the concept of a "uniform" just so they can be "different."

[Rotorhead]

When we moved here from Washington, one of my cadets got into trouble because  he failed to salute the water fountain after getting a drink.

I think if I found myself in a squadron that saluted the drinking fountain, I'd choose another, more professional unit very quickly.

[Larry Mangum]

The following are excerts from their SOP:

COL Aqua Procedure

The squadron drinking fountain has been named COL
Aqua. When using the drinking fountain, all cadets will
report to the drinking fountain using the reporting
procedure specified below.
Stand 2 paces away from and facing the fountain, salute
and say, "Sir, Cadet (Rank and Last Name) reporting as
ordered."
Approach fountain and consume liquid. When finished,
take 1 step back, salute and depart.

Section 4: Privileges of Rank
Terms of Address. The proper term of address for anyone
is their proper rank and their last name. First names are
not to be used. Airmen will be addressed as "Cadet,"
NCOs will be addressed as "Sergeant" or "Chief," and
officers will be addressed as "Sir" or "Ma'am."

Saluting. Cadets will salute all Senior Members and Cadet
Officers. In addition, they will salute when reporting, or
when paying respect to the colors. When in doubt, salute!

Squaring. Cadets will square all corners, in a flanking
manner, when indoors, until they attain the rank of cadet
officer. At this point, squaring is optional.

On the Black. All cadets will walk on the right side of any
hallway, until they attain a position on the cadet command
staff. At this point, walking on the black is optional.
Walling. While inside the building during SQ47 meetings
and activities, Cadets will halt and place their backs to the
wall for all Senior Members and Cadet Officers, until the
person has passed, then proceed along the corridor.

Boonies. BDU Boonie covers may be worn by C/SSGTs
and above, only in the field, and never on a military base,
unless otherwise specified.


As you can see they are kind of off base.

[Rotorhead]

All this does is serve to minimize actual C&Cs and drive away cadets who are mature enough not to put up with such foolishness.

[NC Hokie]

The following are excerts from their SOP:

COL Aqua Procedure

The squadron drinking fountain has been named COL
Aqua. When using the drinking fountain, all cadets will
report to the drinking fountain using the reporting
procedure specified below.
Stand 2 paces away from and facing the fountain, salute
and say, "Sir, Cadet (Rank and Last Name) reporting as
ordered."
Approach fountain and consume liquid. When finished,
take 1 step back, salute and depart.

Section 4: Privileges of Rank
Terms of Address. The proper term of address for anyone
is their proper rank and their last name. First names are
not to be used. Airmen will be addressed as "Cadet,"
NCOs will be addressed as "Sergeant" or "Chief," and
officers will be addressed as "Sir" or "Ma'am."

Saluting. Cadets will salute all Senior Members and Cadet
Officers. In addition, they will salute when reporting, or
when paying respect to the colors. When in doubt, salute!

Squaring. Cadets will square all corners, in a flanking
manner, when indoors, until they attain the rank of cadet
officer. At this point, squaring is optional.

On the Black. All cadets will walk on the right side of any
hallway, until they attain a position on the cadet command
staff. At this point, walking on the black is optional.
Walling. While inside the building during SQ47 meetings
and activities, Cadets will halt and place their backs to the
wall for all Senior Members and Cadet Officers, until the
person has passed, then proceed along the corridor.

Boonies. BDU Boonie covers may be worn by C/SSGTs
and above, only in the field, and never on a military base,
unless otherwise specified.


As you can see they are kind of off base.

Wow!  Col Aqua is just plain weird but I don't see anything wrong with it, after all, kids will be kids.  The sections on saluting and terms of address are fine (I might even borrow them), as is the bit about walking on the black.  The rest...

I was a rat in the Virginia Tech Corps of Cadets many moons ago.  We squared our corners (and did many other silly things) but we no longer had to do so once we were "accepted" into the corps approximately 1/2 way through our first year.  I have no real problem with the practice, but I do think that making cadets do this until they pin on C/2d Lt is excessive; the BEST cadets will be stuck doing this for nine months (with JROTC experience), but many will be doing this for their entire cadet career.  The same goes for walling, although the practice might be somewhat less silly if the corridors are narrow.

As to the boonie hat thing...unless they're wearing BBDUs they are blatantly disregarding regulations, and no amount of local discretion can excuse that.