Boy Scouts Dual Charter

[CadetProgramGuy]

I am in the process of recruiting for a new squadron, and have been approached about Dual Chartering.

CAPR 52-16 has only a paragraph on this topic.

Anyone alse doing this, and what should I look out for?

Tips and comments are always welcome!!

[Major Lord]

Our Sq dual chartered for many years. A few problems came up, such as Cadets having to be at least 14 yeas of age to join the venturing crew, it costs a few bucks to join ( the Senior members paid the membership fee for all the Cadets the first time around) and Your SM's will (eventually) have to take the Boy Scout version of the Level 1 training. Otherwise, the access you can gain to BSA facilities is awesome and expands the scope of your adventure training, and  is well worth it. Rapelling, shooting, and other similar skills are normal for Boy Scouts, and it does not take an act of Congress.

Major Lord

[cap235629]

The training you speak of is "Fast Start" and "Youth Protection" both of which can be completed online.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Our Sq dual chartered for many years. A few problems came up, such as Cadets having to be at least 14 yeas of age to join the venturing crew, it costs a few bucks to join ( the Senior members paid the membership fee for all the Cadets the first time around) and Your SM's will (eventually) have to take the Boy Scout version of the Level 1 training. Otherwise, the access you can gain to BSA facilities is awesome and expands the scope of your adventure training, and  is well worth it. Rapelling, shooting, and other similar skills are normal for Boy Scouts, and it does not take an act of Congress.

Major Lord

Awesome information!!

Questions though.

I understand the cadets will be both members of Boy scouts and CAP, wearing the CAP uniform.  Is this correct?

Also with the Venturing age being 14, we can still bring in Cadets at age 12, then they can join up into the venturing side?

With the Boy Scouts we can use the rappelling, shooting and such, do we still need the Wing CC permission or are we good according to the Regs by having the requirments met?

[CadetProgramGuy]

The training you speak of is "Fast Start" and "Youth Protection" both of which can be completed online.

Do you have to be a member of the Boy Scouts to get to this training?

[cap235629]

No, just open an account at this site  http://olc.scouting.org/ and when it asks you for a council, leave it as no council.  The only problem you might run into is that if you do become a member, the records may not carry over and you will have to retake the training.

You will find that the Youth Protection Training and the Cadet Protection Training are eerily similar.  I was told that CAP modeled CPPT on the BSA program.

More information on Venturing can be found here:

http://www.scouting.org/Venturing.aspx

Good luck and btw, dues are only $12.00 a year unless your council charges local fees.

[cap235629]

And to make some of you PAWG guys flip, Venturing also has a RANGER award!

[CadetProgramGuy]

And to make some of you PAWG guys flip, Venturing also has a RANGER award!

Lets keep this one on topic.........Sorry PAWG

[tjaxe]

Hate to be a devil's advocate, but here goes nothing...

1. Would female cadets be allowed to participate as full members with all of the rights / privileges in the Boy Scout activities?

2. Would (current or future) self-identified gays/lesbians in the unit be allowed to participate as either cadets or adult members since the Boy Scouts discriminates against this group of citizens (while CAP does not)?

[DC]

Hate to be a devil's advocate, but here goes nothing...

1. Would female cadets be allowed to participate as full members with all of the rights / privileges in the Boy Scout activities?

2. Would (current or future) self-identified gays/lesbians in the unit be allowed to participate as either cadets or adult members since the Boy Scouts discriminates against this group of citizens (while CAP does not)?

For your first question, I believe women are allowed to participate in the BSA Venturing program. I'm not sure about your second question, BSA does tend to be rather conservative, to put it lightly.

[Eclipse]

^ I don't think that's even an issue.

Its not like they would meet together every week.  These are too pretty disparete organizations once you get past the youth membership.  CAP has specific regulations regarding participation, progression, and any unit worth its salt, and worth being a dual-charter with, it going to to be on a regular schdule or testing, PT and instruction that won't jive with a normal BSA schedule.

My understanding was that a dual-charter was essentially a good way to share space, get access to BSA facilities, and occasionally have a shared activity - most CAP activities are going to be off-limits to the BSA.

No ES, no encampments, no NCSA, etc.

Also, for clarity - you can't dual-charter with a regular Boy Scout Troop, it has to be a Venture or Varsity unit.  What those units do and how they operate is somewhat different than a standard BSA Troop.

Since CAP is always the host organization by regulation, the BSA can't raise any exclusionary flags for gender, sexual preference, or anything else which is allowed normally by CAP.

6-2. CAP Policy for Dual-Chartering With the Boy Scouts of America. CAP and the Venturing and Varsity divisions of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) have much in common. CAP encourages dual membership in both CAP and BSA as either a Varsity Scouting Team or Venturing Crew, with CAP being the chartered partner. By being the chartered partner, CAP is the basis for the union; therefore, members first belong to CAP. The existing CAP structure does not change and all members will conform to CAP standards and wear the CAP uniform.

a. Benefits. The benefits for dual chartering are:

(1) The BSA organization includes approximately 4,000 professional staff and over 93,000 adult volunteers who would be available to provide assistance in the following areas:

(a) Identification of potential youth members with an interest in aviation or search and rescue through a school career interest survey (where available);

(b) Additional "working with youth" adult leader training opportunities.

(2) Eligibility to participate in all Venturing activities upon becoming a Venturing crew, such as: scholarships and awards, air rifle competitions, fly-ins, an emergency preparedness program, use of local BSA camps and facilities and more.

b. Procedure. After consultation with the wing commander, the squadron commander should meet with representatives of the local BSA Council to discuss dual chartering. If the decision is made to dual charter, then the BSA representative will complete and submit the required BSA chartering documentation. After a squadron receives its charter, the next command echelon should be notified of the new status.

c. Uniform. Dual chartered members are authorized to wear the Venturing Patch or the Aviation Exploring Patch as appropriate, in place of the organizational emblem on the BDU uniform (see CAPM 39-1).

d. Flying. All CAP flying activities will be accomplished in accordance with CAPR 60-1, CAP Flight Management, and all CAP search and rescue activities will be accomplished in accordance with CAPR 60-3, CAP Emergency Services Training and Operational Missions.

e. Regulatory Compliance. A jointly chartered CAP Venturing Crew or Varsity Team will conduct all operations and activities under CAP regulations or clearly and unmistakably conduct itself under the auspices of the scouting program only. If the unit wishes to conduct any activity outside of, or restricted by CAP regulations, the unit commander will obtain Scout liability insurance protection for CAP and the members of the unit from the Scouting Council or Scouting National Headquarters before proceeding.

[tjaxe]

Eclipse, thanks for the great info!

[cap235629]

Hate to be a devil's advocate, but here goes nothing...

1. Would female cadets be allowed to participate as full members with all of the rights / privileges in the Boy Scout activities?

2. Would (current or future) self-identified gays/lesbians in the unit be allowed to participate as either cadets or adult members since the Boy Scouts discriminates against this group of citizens (while CAP does not)?

BSA policy is that openly gay or avowed homosexuals cannot hold a LEADERSHIP position in Scouting or Venturing programs.  There are other programs called Learning for Life and Exploring that are BSA programs that are specifically designed around this topic.  Ask your local Scout Service Center about these programs if this is an issue.

Now understand LEADERSHIP position means Adult advisors as well as Youth leaders.  If they are gay, they cannot act in a leadership capacity.  So your openly gay squadron members could not hold a position as the crew advisor or crew president (read senior youth leader) nor could they register with the BSA as a leader.  They can however attend functions as guests etc. but would not be covered by BSA insurance/charter.  Parents are never excluded (and I mean NEVER) from being with their children at any event, it's just the legalese of the situation.  More information can be found on the BSA website.

I will NOT get into the discussion of this policy as it is the law of the land upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States. Anyone who has read my previous posts about openly gay members knows that I am not a homophobe, so DON'T start.

I have over 25 years in the Scouting program in both unit level and council level roles so please feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions.

[cap235629]

Since CAP is always the host organization by regulation, the BSA can't raise any exclusionary flags for gender, sexual preference, or anything else which is allowed normally by CAP.

Not exactly true, BSA can refuse to issue or revoke a Venture Crews charter if there is a violation of it's standards with regard to sexual orientation or religious principles.

[cap235629]

Hate to be a devil's advocate, but here goes nothing...

1. Would female cadets be allowed to participate as full members with all of the rights / privileges in the Boy Scout activities?

Venturing is a coed program across the board for both youth and adults.

The only exclusion for females is in the Boy Scout and Cub Scout programs,  In these 2 programs there is no female YOUTH participation but adults female membership is in NO WAY restricted.  There are MANY women Scoutmasters and Cubmasters.

[tjaxe]

Like I said... I was playing devil's advocate -- just wanted to get some possible questions answered.  I'm tired of hearing of female cadets being excluded from things (because of lack of female seniors) and I'm glad this isn't the same thing. 

[cap235629]

Like I said... I was playing devil's advocate -- just wanted to get some possible questions answered.  I'm tired of hearing of female cadets being excluded from things (because of lack of female seniors) and I'm glad this isn't the same thing. 

Hope I answered your questions, please feel free to contact me if any more come up, the worst that can happen is I may say, "I'm not sure and I will get that answer for you" 

[cap235629]

An easy solution to this problem would be to charter the squadron as an Aviation Explorer post as opposed to a Venture crew but this would somewhat limit the "extras" you can do as a Venture crew.

[Eclipse]

Since CAP is always the host organization by regulation, the BSA can't raise any exclusionary flags for gender, sexual preference, or anything else which is allowed normally by CAP.

Not exactly true, BSA can refuse to issue or revoke a Venture Crews charter if there is a violation of it's standards with regard to sexual orientation or religious principles.

Right, of course, I meant in the spirit of maintaining the relationship.  Also, as pointed out the Ventures are coed as it is.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Citing 52-16:

6-2. CAP Policy for Dual-Chartering With the Boy Scouts of America. CAP and the Venturing and Varsity divisions of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) have much in common. CAP encourages dual membership in both CAP and BSA as either a Varsity Scouting Team or Venturing Crew, with CAP being the chartered partner. By being the chartered partner, CAP is the basis for the union; therefore, members first belong to CAP. The existing CAP structure does not change and all members will conform to CAP standards and wear the CAP uniform.

Then quoting Eclipse:

My understanding was that a dual-charter was essentially a good way to share space, get access to BSA facilities, and occasionally have a shared activity - most CAP activities are going to be off-limits to the BSA.

No ES, no encampments, no NCSA, etc.

With CAP holding the union of the charter, how could the BSA not attend the emcampments?  If they are in the dual charter, then shouldn't they be allowed?