Ranger 3rd Class

[TheGooseLover]

Good Morning All! I have a question about the Ranger 3rd Class Qualificaton. I have no rangers at my home squadron and the only one I know is 2nd class, which can't sign off new rangers. How would I find someone qualified to sign off my Ranger 3rd Class qualification within my wing? Thanks!

[Luis R. Ramos]

Ranger is not a Civil Air Patrol specialty.

You "may" be qualified as a Ranger if you participate in the Hawk Mountain Encampment, but this is only for Pennsylvania Wing.

[TheGooseLover]

But the Quals Sheet (look it up) says a ranger 1st class or higher can sign it off, that, to me, implies that anyone Ranger 1st class or up can sign my sheet off, yes?

[Гугл переводчик]

Hawk Mountain is a NCSA, and you can only get the "ranger" titles at this event.

[Spam]

Cadet,

The term "Ranger" is entirely a locally used one by several Wings, but not by all (or, I suspect, a majority).  "Ranger" in CAP context means absolutely nothing to most of us, and different things to different Wings. I won't accept signoffs by anyone who doesn't meet National CAP standards for example and I don't recognize any of those other quals (I have a hard enough time verifying transfers who much of the time have pencil-whipped quals any ways).


Best advice I have: ask within your Wing, not here. All you'll get here is differing opinions.


V/R,
Spam

[Luis R. Ramos]

Maybe quals sheet for Hawk Mountain, which again do not apply out of Pennsylvania may say "Ranger 3rd class."

The quals sheet that really mean anything for any wing are for Emergency Services, and are Ground Team Member 3, or GTM3, Ground Team Member 2 or GTM 2, and Ground Team Member 1, or GTM1. I am an evaluator for GTM3.

You check the quals. Nowhere do they say Ranger 3rd Class.

https://www.capnhq.gov/CAP.OPSQuals.Web/EmergencyServices/SQTR.aspx?print=1

[TheGooseLover]

https://pawg.cap.gov/sites/default/files/Ranger3rdclass14.pdf

[Гугл переводчик]

https://pawg.cap.gov/sites/default/files/Ranger3rdclass14.pdf

Notice how its from PAWG, not NHQ.

[Luis R. Ramos]

As Rosinsky, Spam, and myself have told you, these quals apply only to a special activity and state. One. Only one. Pennsylvania. What you are failing to see are the quals under this heading:

NATIONAL EMERGENCY SERVICES GROUND TEAM MEMBER 3 REQUIREMENTS

These are the only quals that apply to all Wings.

[Garibaldi]

The only real thing that qualification does for you is denote your participation in a certain aspect of the course, the ability to sew a patch on your uniform, and to have a higher self esteem than your peers. It does not confer any kind of special status among ground teams, NESA/GSAR graduates, or any kind of advanced SQTR certification.

There is no one who can sign you off as an advanced Ranger besides anyone who has attended Hawk Mountain. You would have to go to Hawk Mountain to attain a higher rating. Or find someone local to you with the Ranger 1st Class certification.

If I sound a bit harsh against the HMRS program, it is because I've never been a fan of it. I find it inflates egos where it shouldn't, and promotes an atmosphere of negative superiority. I've known cadets who have come back with attitude problems and have gone away from the ES program when they discover the HMRS does not have much to do with real world operations.

[Panzerbjorn]

As Rosinsky, Spam, and myself have told you, these quals apply only to a special activity and state. One. Only one. Pennsylvania. What you are failing to see are the quals under this heading:

I think you missed the memo.  North Carolina is another Wing that has a rather thriving Ranger program.  It's also done at MERSAR as well.  IJS.

Ranger certification is really more an above and beyond kind of program than it is a qualification program.  The fact of the matter is that by the time you reach Ranger 3rd Class, you're GTM qualified as well.  You've just learned extra skills above and beyond that required for a GTM qualification.

I write this post during a Ranger Training Weekend out here, and the Ranger certifications are the same given out at HMRS.  So, no, it doesn't specifically require you to attend HMRS to obtain them.

[Spam]

I think I DID recognize that several Wings have Ranger programs:

... locally used one by several Wings, but not by all (or, I suspect, a majority). 

I have a C/LT in my unit here in GA with NCWG Tabs at the moment, and generally support the program. Time was, many Wings did but discontinued them (Maryland had a thriving one up through the 90s, for example), as some Wings/Regions also had SAR schools equivalent to Hawk (e.g. Pathfinder for NCR, held in MOWG at Ft. Lost In The Woods/Leonard Wood MO).


Continuing training is always a Good Thing (well, usually). Its important to recognize that the term "Ranger" is (a) not a nationally recognized qualification and (b) Ranger requirements from one Wing which does it to another are different, thus the right answer is to ask for YOUR Wings requirements specifically.


Back to the cadet/original poster:  good on you for seeking additional training beyond your GTM3, 2, and 1. Still suggest you ask within your own Wing to avoid confusion. Best of luck!


V/R
Spam

[Spam]

Note (mandatory thread uniform content!):

I never gave my C/LT any crap over wearing his Ranger tabs from NC Wing, even though we have no Georgia Wing supplement authorizing their wear. Recommend that all you other unit/CCs give some slack there as well. This is how we pay our people for seeking advanced training.

(now, back to learning French from "The Returned" season premiere)...

V/R,
Spam

[Disenchanted]

I would like to clarify about the Pathfinder School that was held at Fort Leonard Wood, MO.
It was a SAR School that emphasized "the realities of SAR in the Missouri Wing".  You did receive a patch for your uniform and a shoulder chord.
It was stated from the very first day that this training was never to create some super ES trooper or create arrogance toward others.  You were
to take the knowledge and teach others at your unit. 
I don't see this approach from the "Ranger Program" from PA.
The Pathfinder School has been restarted at Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri Wing.  The new school is based on the precepts of the old school as I understand.

[LSThiker]

e.g. Pathfinder for NCR,

Pathfinder was specifically an MOWG activity.  It was never an NCR program, although other members in the NCR did attend it.  The NCR "Ranger" program was the NCR Special Services Corps, which stemmed from the Iowa Wing Special Services Corps and later became National Blue Beret. 

[Spam]

I stand corrected, and thank you.  When I commanded St. Louis 1 (during the floods of 93) when it was run by LTC Scott Lawson, I was a supporter of the original program, and remain generally supportive of such programs.

I've seen "attitude" in equal proportions from school/program graduates and "regular" curriculum graduates alike. I'm neutral on the attitude issue in terms of source/blame. I think human nature is to blame.

Again, good on any of you for seeking additional/recurrency training. (and, thanks for the update, teammates).


V/R,
Spam

[Spam]

PS.

"Disenchanted", noted this is your first post... welcome, friend. Thanks for the input. I lurked for years without commenting, myself.

Why such a handle?  Glass half full, teammate!


V/R
Spam

[Luis R. Ramos]

Spam-

He was referring to me not you. Although I read your post, since the Wing I know most with the Ranger program is Pennsylvania, I did post on purpose just Pennsylvania. And he corrected me. In fact I said "only one."

[Flying Pig]

Tabbed or Scrolled.... Tabbed and Scrolled?  That is the question.  They have women Rangers now too. 

[Garibaldi]

Tabbed or Scrolled.... Tabbed and Scrolled?  That is the question.  They have women Rangers now too.

Tab (black with yellow lettering and trim)is what you get for completing the program, but not everyone who completes the Ranger program gets the tab. The scroll is for assignment to one of the Ranger battalions, I believe. It's stylized and specific, red trim on a black scroll, with white lettering.

I should mention my olde cadet unit had 2 unit patches. The normal one was styled after the Ranger tab, white on black, and the advanced patch for completing advanced GT tasks was a red scroll with black lettering, modeled after the Ranger scroll. It wasn't easy to get, because some of the tasks were very daunting. Night navigation of 3,000 meters, day navigation of same, rappelling into a 250' sinkhole and ascending out, rappelling down a 750' cliff among other tasks not applicable to today's SAR/GT missions.

And I said something earlier about creating an atmosphere of arrogance and superiority. I should mention that we WERE the best in GAWG in the 80s. We didn't just feel superior, we WERE superior. It wasn't arrogance since we knew full well we were the best. We honestly felt we were the trendsetters, the unit everyone should look up to. Or so we thought then.

Soooooo, I'm a hypocrite.

If a wing or region wants to sponsor an advanced school and call it a Ranger school, that's fine. More power to you. I realize this thread has drifted way off topic to the OP's question and he probably went away scratching his head and wondering how that happened, he just asked a simple question, and look what happened. My bad, as the kids say, but this is CAPTalk and YMMV and people get butthurt all the time.

My feelings on the PAWG program are what they are. I've seen the results and I don't like them. But I'm not going to begrudge anyone anymore who wants to go.

Same team, Farva, same team. We all have a common goal to accomplish.

[PA Guy]

And the cadet OP was last seen running away into the night screaming.

[Luis R. Ramos]

If so he was not cut out to be a Ranger...

[Disenchanted]

Some more clarification on the Pathfinder School.
It was supported by the Missouri Wing.  We had cadets from all over the U.S. attend.  We had a cadet from California Wing attend.  He showed up in the slant pocket green jungle fatigues which were still authorized at the time.  The school commander made him change because we were on an active Army Post.  If my memory is right, at the time Army Rangers were still wearing that uniform, so we didn't want any confusion with Regular Army folks.
Good times.
I guess I just turned this into a uniform thread.  Sorry.

[Garibaldi]

If so he was not cut out to be a Ranger...

Or maybe he is....

[Luis R. Ramos]

A screaming ranger in the night? Are Rangers supposed to "run away and scream?"

WOW!

[TheGooseLover]

Wow. Just wow. This thread is... Amazing. You guys all rock, made my day reading all the new posts.

[Flying Pig]

Ranger?  ranger?  Hmmmm

[Garibaldi]

Wow. Just wow. This thread is... Amazing. You guys all rock, made my day reading all the new posts.

I hereby dub thee....Danger Ranger.

Seriously, though, don't expect anything more than a 10 sided answer here on CAPTalk. Find a R1C somewhere near you and go from there, or wait until next summer.

[sarmed1]

Just do the GTM3, GTM2, and GTM 1 tasks.  Study for the "other" ranger specific tasks on the sheets so when the time comes you can test them with minimal fanfare.  Nothing kills ranger grade hopefuls than not having the appropriate GTM tasks completed. (the newest sheets have all of the GTM tasks on them first, then any Ranger specific skills second for a reason)

Look for Ranger related activities to attend or start the social media search for other ranger graded individuals that may be at local events.  I know from being at the school, there are a number of R/1-R/exp in TXWG, seek them out, maybe they will be at an activity you can attend, otherwise the summer school occurs pretty much the same time and in the same place in PA, every year.

MK

[sarmed1]

oh an PS:
Its not an "encampment", its a NCSA.

mk

[THRAWN]

Just do the GTM3, GTM2, and GTM 1 tasks.  Study for the "other" ranger specific tasks on the sheets so when the time comes you can test them with minimal fanfare.  Nothing kills ranger grade hopefuls than not having the appropriate GTM tasks completed. (the newest sheets have all of the GTM tasks on them first, then any Ranger specific skills second for a reason)

Look for Ranger related activities to attend or start the social media search for other ranger graded individuals that may be at local events.  I know from being at the school, there are a number of R/1-R/exp in TXWG, seek them out, maybe they will be at an activity you can attend, otherwise the summer school occurs pretty much the same time and in the same place in PA, every year.

MK

I have a vague memory of the 3rd class signoff being able to be accomplished "off the mountain". It was kind of used to encourage participation at Hawk and to let people into the "club" to further advance through the ranger grades. Is my memory correct here?

[TheGooseLover]

Does anyone know of or have experience with the Field Medic program? I'm really into first aid and have completed my first aid course already, is it worth it?

[sarmed1]

BITD-when an R2 was the first qual that you had to do sign offs for a unit CC could sign off on R2 skills even if they wernt a "ranger" (they were mostly simple/safety skills), but always the understanding that it was otherwise someone with the next highest Ranger grade.

Then GTM skills started to become integrated into the Ranger sheets, ok good, however there wasnt an actual requirement for GTM qual until R1, but the problem was there were GTM tasks and Ranger tasks intermixed on the sheets.  So you risked that a GTM3 might be signing of a GTM1 skill just because it was on the R3 or R2 sheet and thus messing up the GTM gual when entered into the computer.  So the latest version has that only a R1 can sign of on an R2 or R3 sheet so that GTM 3 or 2 level skills are being signed off by a person that is at least a GTM1 or above.  Also they are supposed to have SET on their 101 in order to sign off (Ranger skills included), though not listed as a requirement for qualification

The current "plan" allows you to complete R3 much like the old world of R2, you dont have to set foot onto the mountain (or other "sanctioned activity" in order to meet the basic qualification.

If you are looking yourself I noticed today that there is an error on the web page, the drop down menu under downloads has the correct sheet, but the hyperlink on the page if opened has the old sheet.

MK

[THRAWN]

Does anyone know of or have experience with the Field Medic program? I'm really into first aid and have completed my first aid course already, is it worth it?

I know a few people that have completed the course. From what I've seen, they get a really good education. It's led to careers in the EMS field for some of them.

http://www.capranger.org/field%20medic%20course.html

[THRAWN]

BITD-when an R2 was the first qual that you had to do sign offs for a unit CC could sign off on R2 skills even if they wernt a "ranger" (they were mostly simple/safety skills), but always the understanding that it was otherwise someone with the next highest Ranger grade.

Then GTM skills started to become integrated into the Ranger sheets, ok good, however there wasnt an actual requirement for GTM qual until R1, but the problem was there were GTM tasks and Ranger tasks intermixed on the sheets.  So you risked that a GTM3 might be signing of a GTM1 skill just because it was on the R3 or R2 sheet and thus messing up the GTM gual when entered into the computer.  So the latest version has that only a R1 can sign of on an R2 or R3 sheet so that GTM 3 or 2 level skills are being signed off by a person that is at least a GTM1 or above.  Also they are supposed to have SET on their 101 in order to sign off (Ranger skills included), though not listed as a requirement for qualification

The current "plan" allows you to complete R3 much like the old world of R2, you dont have to set foot onto the mountain (or other "sanctioned activity" in order to meet the basic qualification.

If you are looking yourself I noticed today that there is an error on the web page, the drop down menu under downloads has the correct sheet, but the hyperlink on the page if opened has the old sheet.

MK

I thought so. Like I said, my info is hazy and a bit dated (pre-2000) but I remember that the R3 was like being a pledge to the frat.

[Jaison009]

I did mine that way WIWAC

Just do the GTM3, GTM2, and GTM 1 tasks.  Study for the "other" ranger specific tasks on the sheets so when the time comes you can test them with minimal fanfare.  Nothing kills ranger grade hopefuls than not having the appropriate GTM tasks completed. (the newest sheets have all of the GTM tasks on them first, then any Ranger specific skills second for a reason)

Look for Ranger related activities to attend or start the social media search for other ranger graded individuals that may be at local events.  I know from being at the school, there are a number of R/1-R/exp in TXWG, seek them out, maybe they will be at an activity you can attend, otherwise the summer school occurs pretty much the same time and in the same place in PA, every year.

MK

I have a vague memory of the 3rd class signoff being able to be accomplished "off the mountain". It was kind of used to encourage participation at Hawk and to let people into the "club" to further advance through the ranger grades. Is my memory correct here?

[TheGooseLover]

I think I'm going to go next year and get R2-R1 and then maybe go back and get Field Medic one of the following years

[THRAWN]

I did mine that way WIWAC

Just do the GTM3, GTM2, and GTM 1 tasks.  Study for the "other" ranger specific tasks on the sheets so when the time comes you can test them with minimal fanfare.  Nothing kills ranger grade hopefuls than not having the appropriate GTM tasks completed. (the newest sheets have all of the GTM tasks on them first, then any Ranger specific skills second for a reason)

Look for Ranger related activities to attend or start the social media search for other ranger graded individuals that may be at local events.  I know from being at the school, there are a number of R/1-R/exp in TXWG, seek them out, maybe they will be at an activity you can attend, otherwise the summer school occurs pretty much the same time and in the same place in PA, every year.

MK

I have a vague memory of the 3rd class signoff being able to be accomplished "off the mountain". It was kind of used to encourage participation at Hawk and to let people into the "club" to further advance through the ranger grades. Is my memory correct here?

I thought so. Like I said, I kind of remembered it being that way. I remember going through a R3 eval in 2000 or 2001 or so with a R1. Not sure if the form was ever submitted, but it was a good look at the program. There were a few of us who "tested" and then were going to head to PA for the summer. Then 9/11 happened and there was a bit of reorganization in my priorities.

I'm pretty sure that this is the kind of info that the OP was looking for.

[sarmed1]

Does anyone know of or have experience with the Field Medic program? I'm really into first aid and have completed my first aid course already, is it worth it?

Prerequisite: Completion of a Cadet Basic or Advance course, Ranger 2nd Class, and a professional CPR certification is mandatory. Early registration is required since there may be pre-course assignments as part of the school curriculum.

If it is worth it is kind of up to you.  Does it change anything you do as far as GTM qual or role in operations, no; you are still limited by the restrictions in CAPR 160-1, just like any other member with a medical certification.  If an career in healthcare is something you are interested in its a good opportunity for some learning and experience to send you down that path ( I know plenty of people that went thru the course that went on to become Paramedics, Nurses, PA's and Physicians, and many attribute their interest in the field to their experience with the course)

mk

[TheGooseLover]

I just really wish they'd plan NCSA's around wing encampments, I know they are all at different dates, but just don't do NCSA's in June-July unless you have to (NBB). I graduated encampment this year and plan to go as a Flight Sergeant next year, so I can't go to HMRS.

[sarmed1]

9/11 happened and I took a little hiatus until about 2005, then kind of fell back into it out of dumb luck.

mk

[THRAWN]

I just really wish they'd plan NCSA's around wing encampments, I know they are all at different dates, but just don't do NCSA's in June-July unless you have to (NBB). I graduated encampment this year and plan to go as a Flight Sergeant next year, so I can't go to HMRS.

This is where being a grown up comes into the program. What's your priority? Would being a FS benefit you in the long run? What are your goals? Does going to Hawk help you meet those goals, or does another round of encampment?

[sarmed1]

I just really wish they'd plan NCSA's around wing encampments, I know they are all at different dates, but just don't do NCSA's in June-July unless you have to (NBB). I graduated encampment this year and plan to go as a Flight Sergeant next year, so I can't go to HMRS.

Most NCSA's happen at the same time as encampments because thats when the most students are available.  Most NCSA's require a basic encampment, not everyone who goes to encampment will return to a staff positions, and not every encampment has courses other than basic encampment so NCSA's are available as an alternative.  Also, not to sound selfish, but encampments are a local thing (relatively speaking) they could be accomplished over multiple dates on the "B" type plan with minimal travel issues vs NCSA's draw from everywhere and are better accomplished in one week long event.  So maybe its the other way around, encampments need to stop planning around NCSA's

mk

[TheGooseLover]

Yikes. I'm UDF and MRO qualified, and like, 2 tasks from GTM3. I really want to be into SAR more, after a SAR mission I went on last month, it really opened my eyes. But I really want to be a FS at encampment as well, I'm sure I could make it and I think it would give me a good leadership training opportunity... It's something for me to think about I guess

[TheGooseLover]

I just really wish they'd plan NCSA's around wing encampments, I know they are all at different dates, but just don't do NCSA's in June-July unless you have to (NBB). I graduated encampment this year and plan to go as a Flight Sergeant next year, so I can't go to HMRS.

Most NCSA's happen at the same time as encampments because thats when the most students are available.  Most NCSA's require a basic encampment, not everyone who goes to encampment will return to a staff positions, and not every encampment has courses other than basic encampment so NCSA's are available as an alternative.  Also, not to sound selfish, but encampments are a local thing (relatively speaking) they could be accomplished over multiple dates on the "B" type plan with minimal travel issues vs NCSA's draw from everywhere and are better accomplished in one week long event.  So maybe its the other way around, encampments need to stop planning around NCSA's

mk

Great Point! I didn't think about that! That makes much more since.

[sarmed1]

Yikes. I'm UDF and MRO qualified, and like, 2 tasks from GTM3. I really want to be into SAR more, after a SAR mission I went on last month, it really opened my eyes. But I really want to be a FS at encampment as well, I'm sure I could make it and I think it would give me a good leadership training opportunity... It's something for me to think about I guess

I would consider looking at LESA in TX wing.  They run a winter school over Xmas break and a summer school, which in the past has been in June (it was cancelled this year for logistics reasons).  That would allow you to pursue ES training locally and potentially not conflict with encampment (and there are occasionally Ranger qualified members participating that may be able to help you with Ranger grade sign off)  The other thing to consider is how likely are you to be selected for a FS position at encampment?  Are you sure you will be an NCO by then, what if you arent?  If you arent realistically sure, you shouldnt put all your eggs in the same basket so to speak.  If they only offer you a logistics position, are you still going to go or would you have rather gone to HMRS?  Personally HMRS (beneath all the ES training) teaches some very valuable cadet lessons:  leadership, followership, teamwork, attention to detail, problem solving to name a few,  dont discount those as balances to the leadership experience of a FS position at encampment.

mk

[TheGooseLover]

Thank you all. You've opened my eyes a little bit more. Sarmed, do you know where I could find the LESA winter application?

[TheGooseLover]

I just checked, im not old enough to attend LESA this year :-/ oh well. And yes, I'm sure I'll be a NCO by next July, I should be by next week actually, tonight is my drill test, the last thing I need for C/SSgt

[sarmed1]

At 13, as long as you stick with CAP you will have plenty of time to build up ES qualifications and experience, attend schools, staff encampments and go to NCSA's; HMRS or otherwise.

MK

[Garibaldi]

I just really wish they'd plan NCSA's around wing encampments, I know they are all at different dates, but just don't do NCSA's in June-July unless you have to (NBB). I graduated encampment this year and plan to go as a Flight Sergeant next year, so I can't go to HMRS.

Wing encampments are really dependent on where it can be held and when. If it's on a military base, the base has to make sure there's sufficient staffing, space, working around deployments, and so on. It's not unusual for a date to change several times before it actually happens, so scheduling around NCSAs is really not feasible.

[TheGooseLover]

Also, I've heard if you wait to go to HMRS until you're GTM1 Qualified, you're almost guaranteed Ranger 1st class, would you guys agree or disagree?

[SarDragon]

Patience, padawan.

Life is a journey; enjoy the ride, and don't be in such a hurry to reach the end.

[TheGooseLover]

Patience, padawan.

Life is a journey; enjoy the ride, and don't be in such a hurry to reach the end.

thanks you Sir/Ma'am, I tend to get ahead of myself sometimes... It's a bad habit :-/

[Гугл переводчик]

Patience, padawan.

Life is a journey; enjoy the ride, and don't be in such a hurry to reach the end.

thanks you Sir/Ma'am, I tend to get ahead of myself sometimes... It's a bad habit :-/

You can always turn that into a positive! I used to be the same way as a cadet.

[sarmed1]

Also, I've heard if you wait to go to HMRS until you're GTM1 Qualified, you're almost guaranteed Ranger 1st class, would you guys agree or disagree?

I would disagree.  You do for sure decrease the number of tasks you have to complete, but there are still a lot of Ranger specific tasks in there; some of them are advanced Nav oriented, maybe if you were a GTL or GTL (T) I would lean more toward an agree.  I wouldn't maybe make you do all 3 PT tests, and I think fire building is on both R2 and R1....

If it is your first time I would say it would put you more likely to be accepted into the 2nd year school vs a basic school rather than a guarantee to R1.

mk

[TheGooseLover]

Patience, padawan.

Life is a journey; enjoy the ride, and don't be in such a hurry to reach the end.

thanks you Sir/Ma'am, I tend to get ahead of myself sometimes... It's a bad habit :-/

You can always turn that into a positive! I used to be the same way as a cadet.

Considering you made it to at least C/Capt, I'll definitely try that' thank you Sir/Ma'am!