POLL: Time in Grade for Cadets

[Cadetter]

Pretty self-explanatory.

I agree with the 5th.

2nd sentence edited: I agree in principle with the 5th, although I do not applaud "fast burner" cadets.

[BHartman007]

It's almost a moot point. There's probably only one cadet in a thousand that has all of the requirements met inside of 56 days.

[Майор Хаткевич]

It's almost a moot point. There's probably only one cadet in a thousand that has all of the requirements met inside of 56 days.

Then you'd be dead wrong.




Can it / does it happen? Yes. Do I support it? No.

[Eclipse]

Define "mature enough".

No TIG would potentially equal first or second year Spaatz cadets.

One of the points of TIG is to allow cadets to acclimate to the expectation and responsibilities
of their new grade, the fact that few units have the manpower to afford those expectations
notwithstanding.

[ZigZag911]

I'd like to see 12 weeks time in grade, perhaps even 16...some of the real young "fast burners" would benefit from the additional experience...also, it would probably more accurately reflect what cadets are capable of doing ..by which I mean, it has always seemed to me that it was the rare cadet that could meet all requirements well in 8 weeks.

[Cadetter]

It's almost a moot point. There's probably only one cadet in a thousand that has all of the requirements met inside of 56 days.

I've seen it happen quite a lot, for the objective requirements. Rarely for subjective.

Define "mature enough".

No TIG would potentially equal first or second year Spaatz cadets.

One of the points of TIG is to allow cadets to acclimate to the expectation and responsibilities
of their new grade, the fact that few units have the manpower to afford those expectations
notwithstanding.

Commanders' definition.

Potentially, yes. But would it be very likely that a cadet will promote every 2-3 weeks?

Sure, if a cadet doesn't meet the expectations of the grade, then no promotion.

I'd like to see 12 weeks time in grade, perhaps even 16...some of the real young "fast burners" would benefit from the additional experience...also, it would probably more accurately reflect what cadets are capable of doing ..by which I mean, it has always seemed to me that it was the rare cadet that could meet all requirements well in 8 weeks.

Maybe degressive TIG reqs? Most 17 year olds shouldn't need 16 weeks TIG... 13 year olds might.

[Eclipse]

"Commander's decision" isn't something that is a good idea when the program is supposed to
be standardized nationwide.

You would potentially have cadets cramming between milestones and then walking in expecting
3 clicks at a time.

The TIG is intended for a cadet to age into the role and grade, by design.  It is also intended
to actually have cadets stick around and help others do the same.

If anything, the responsibilities of a 16 year old cadet officer are higher then an NCO.
Between milestones you're supposed to be doing, learning, mentoring, being mentored, and
using the things you learned to get to that point, not just stewing that you have to wait.

It's not a race.

[Cadetter]

"Commander's decision" isn't something that is a good idea when the program is supposed to
be standardized nationwide.

You would potentially have cadets cramming between milestones and then walking in expecting
3 clicks at a time.

The TIG is intended for a cadet to age into the role and grade, by design.  It is also intended
to actually have cadets stick around and help others do the same.

If anything, the responsibilities of a 16 year old cadet officer are higher then an NCO.
Between milestones you're supposed to be doing, learning, mentoring, being mentored, and
using the things you learned to get to that point, not just stewing that you have to wait.

It's not a race.

Didn't say it was good. But if it's commanders deciding promotions, then it's commanders' definition.

Maybe. So, there is a truly amazing cadet who passes tons of tests quickly, excels at all subjective expectations for promotion. What's wrong with promoting them.

If so, TIG should be longer, because two months is not enough time to "age into the role and grade" for most, except the airmen ranks (in my limited experience).

Yup. But why have 8 weeks time in grade rather than 2, or rather than 15? Not having specific time in grade... does not mean we'll have 12-year old Spaatzen. It means that less cadets will race to meet the minimum, because there is no minimum. If a cadet seems to think it is a race and demands promotions quickly, then are they showing maturity for promotion?

Promoting too quickly is bad, yes. I learned from personal experience.

[Eclipse]

Maybe. So, there is a truly amazing cadet who passes tons of tests quickly, excels at all subjective expectations for promotion. What's wrong with promoting them.

What advantage is there?

Two other things - if you haven't dealt with helicopter parents, then you don't know what you're speaking of.
There's a fair number who view things like CAP, Boy Scouts, and Sports as simply a belt notch towards some other
thing later.  This is also prevalent in homeschoolers.  Given the incentive, you'd have cadets
blowing through the online tests in a few nights, whether they actually understand the work or not, these are, afterall,
online, open-book unproctered tests.

Second, it makes it easier to read if you quote what you are responding to.

[Cadetter]

Maybe. So, there is a truly amazing cadet who passes tons of tests quickly, excels at all subjective expectations for promotion. What's wrong with promoting them.

What advantage is there?

Two other things - if you haven't dealt with helicopter parents, then you don't know what you're speaking of.
There's a fair number who view things like CAP, Boy Scouts, and Sports as simply a belt notch towards some other
thing later.  This is also prevalent in homeschoolers.  Given the incentive, you'd have cadets
blowing through the online tests in a few nights, whether they actually understand the work or not, these are, afterall,
online, open-book unproctered tests.

Second, it makes it easier to read if you quote what you are responding to.

Motivation.

My parents have been helicopter parents and I am a homeschooler. I have "dealt with" a few helicopter parents, but not many.

Edited that.

[Eclipse]

Your motivation as a cadet should be participating in the program, hands-on learning to be a follower and leader,
and generally gaining as much experience as you can.  If you do it properly, the promotions will follow organically.

The TIG was specifically put in place to slow down the fast burners. There is no advantage to
fact-burning and a lot of risk to retention.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Given that cadet officers are already "throttled", based on grade (at least partially,  4 months as 1st Lt, 6 as Capt/Maj), I always  figured that phase I and II should take at least 3 months per stripe.

If I were king, WBA would be about 9-12 month mark, so 3 months as Airman, 3 as A1C, 3 as SrA.
WBA at say 9 based on that, so TSgt at 12, MSgt at 15, SMSgt at 18, Chief1 at 21, Chief2 at 24, with Mitchell at any time after that.

Mitchell at 24 min, 1st at 28, Capt/Earhart at 32.
Major at 38, Eaker at 40, Spaatz at 42.

So the shift is
18-24 Mitchell
24-32 Earhart
38-40 Eaker
38-42 Spaatz

In the long run, not much of a change.

[Cadetter]

Eclipse - True. Promoting tends to motivate cadets, and vice versa, or so I see it. Why specifically 8 weeks TIG? Because in the long run it's not a very large time span.

usafaux2004 - How about degressive (like I suggested earlier), as follows?

1 month in CAP for first stripe
4 months for Curry-Arnold, and Arnold-Feik
Wright Brothers any time after that
3 months for Wright Brothers-TSgt, TSgt-MSgt, MSgt-SMSgt, SMSgt-Goddard
2 months for Goddard-Armstrong
Mitchell any time after that
2 months for 2dLt-2dLt
1stLt any time after that
2 months 1stLt-1stLt
Earhart any time after that
1 month for Capt-Capt, and Capt-Capt
Major any time after that
1 month for Maj-Maj and Maj-Maj
Eaker any time after that
Spaatz any time after that

Roughly 32 months (assuming "any time after that is ~6 days.)

[Storm Chaser]

I think this is a "solution" looking for a problem. The current time between achievements is fine as it is. I would argue that in most cases 8 weeks is not enough. And even if a cadet is ready for promotion to the next grade before the 8 weeks are up, how is waiting a extra few days or weeks detrimental to the cadet? Besides, 8 weeks (or even 16) barely provide enough time for a cadet to gain experience in that grade before moving to the next.

[MIKE]

TIG requirements are the minimum time to complete an achievement or award.  If you want the Cadet Program to devolve into take tests, get promoted as fast as regulations will allow... Then IMO you are doing it wrong.

For me personally, I would like to see earned grade not necessarily tied to directly to achievements completed.

[CAP_truth]

12 weeks for training and testing. 13 week as an awards night. If a cadet joins after completing 6 grade should have their Mitchell when they complete 8 grade, Earhart by the end of Freshman year, and Eaker by the end of Sophomore year. Spaatz by the time they end Junior year.

[Cadetter]

MIKE - Not just tests, the maturity and carrying out of the duties.

[MacGruff]

Maybe. So, there is a truly amazing cadet who passes tons of tests quickly, excels at all subjective expectations for promotion. What's wrong with promoting them.

What advantage is there?

Two other things - if you haven't dealt with helicopter parents, then you don't know what you're speaking of.
There's a fair number who view things like CAP, Boy Scouts, and Sports as simply a belt notch towards some other
thing later.  This is also prevalent in homeschoolers.  Given the incentive, you'd have cadets
blowing through the online tests in a few nights, whether they actually understand the work or not, these are, afterall,
online, open-book unproctered tests.

Second, it makes it easier to read if you quote what you are responding to.

Motivation.

My parents have been helicopter parents and I am a homeschooler. I have "dealt with" a few helicopter parents, but not many.

Edited that.

We just had that problem in my Squadron. A cadet was being pushed hard by their parents. Once promoted, they would have taken  their leadership and aerospace tests within a week. When PT was offered, they would be right there ready to meet it. All with the idea of promoting as fast as possible and no slower than a promotion every two months.

This was fine as long as the cadet was in the early parts of the program. Unfortunately, when the requirements for displaying leadership by actually leading other cadets rolled in, this cadet was not ready. They were completely dependent on their parents for everything and always looked to someone else to see what to do. They were clearly not ready to assume the duties of a Tech Sergeant or higher, yet the parents were there, arguing with the Senior officers about it.

This caused a lot of friction and drama that was noticed by the other cadets and took a few months to play out. Unfortunately, the results were poor for everyone. The cadet and parents ended up disillusioned and leaving the program; while the cadet officers and Senior leaders had to deal with the drama and the negative effects on the rest of the squadron during the whole process and even beyond it.

That cadet should have taken much more time to move up, but there was no real reason to slow their progress over the first few steps. Having longer time limits would have helped this particular cadet who was pushed into a position beyond their current level of maturity to everyone's detriment.

[Cadetter]

MacGruff - When I promoted too quickly (personal definition), I definitely lacked the maturity to be a senior NCO. Thankfully one of my promotions was stopped, and I actually had to work towards being promoted. (Current promotion is being held too.) There is one cadet in my squadron, who is very motivated and hardworking, who has (as far as I know) gotten all promotions except the last with 8-9 weeks TIG. However they definitely have the maturity for it (an "older" cadet.)

Also, just to note - I and a few others in my squadron have found that testing as soon as possible after the previous promotion helps us retain information for milestones, so we test soon after, not necessarily because we are trying to promote quickly but because we enjoy passing milestone exams.

[Eclipse]

There is one cadet in my squadron, who is very motivated and hardworking, who has (as far as I know) gotten all promotions except the last with 8-9 weeks TIG.

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