Cadets in college

[Critical AOA]

Whereas as a junior Senior Member, you could be relegated to back of the room status until you prove yourself to the rest of the seniors and the squadron command staff. 

That's just wrong.

I am not saying it is right or wrong, just that it is highly probable.  In a room full of 40 - 70+ year olds with lifetimes full of real world experiences, both military and civilian, an 18 - 20 year old will seldom if ever be looked at in the same light as the old guys look at one another.  That is true in any organization.  Newbies are newbies.

And it seems like you might understand this at least a little by the following:

At 18 you've got about 10 years before anyone will consider you an adult.
Now get off my lawn!!!

Probably at least partially true. At 22/23 most of my friends are still in high school mode...

You might not like it but if you don't at least see it as a reality, you are only kidding yourself.... as kids seem to do.

[Майор Хаткевич]

In respect to CAP I'd take a cadet turned SM any day over 40 year old John Smith who just walked into his first ever meeting. Age old wisdom is seldom actual wisdom and skill based knowledge tends to ignore age quite well.

[SarDragon]

In respect to CAP I'd take a cadet turned SM any day over 40 year old John Smith who just walked into his first ever meeting. Age old wisdom is seldom actual wisdom and skill based knowledge tends to ignore age quite well.

IMHO, that depends a lot on the type of squadron. When you're looking at CP, a former cadet might have some higher level of knowledge, but when you're talking about a Senior squadron, I'll take a 40 yo with mission skills over a fresh cadet-turned-SM.

[Critical AOA]

In respect to CAP I'd take a cadet turned SM any day over 40 year old John Smith who just walked into his first ever meeting. Age old wisdom is seldom actual wisdom and skill based knowledge tends to ignore age quite well.

IMHO, that depends a lot on the type of squadron. When you're looking at CP, a former cadet might have some higher level of knowledge, but when you're talking about a Senior squadron, I'll take a 40 yo with mission skills over a fresh cadet-turned-SM.

Especially when the vast majority of 40 year olds or older who join CAP seem to either be military veterans or pilots or both.  These are people with the skills required to fulfill the main mission of CAP which is Emergency Services / SAR.  Yes I know some like to look at all three missions of CAP equally and put AE & CP on an equal footing with ES but that simply isn't realistic.

Having experienced adult professionals who have served in the military, were airline pilots or were in another occupation such as fire / rescue and have gained valuable mission oriented skills is far more important to the success of the ES mission than a young person who just came out of the cadet ranks even though that young person might have some good AE knowledge and know how to wear his ribbons on his blues. 

These same pilots by the way are the same individuals who fly cadet O-flights, often teach AE and assist in other ways in CP in addition to fulfilling their ES duties.  Not too many 18 -20 something year olds have the required knowledge, skills, PIC hours, etc. to do this.

Now, I have nothing against CP.  I was a cadet back in the late 70s.  I earned my Mitchell and was almost ready for my Earhart when I graduated high school, went to college and dropped out of CAP which is a regret of mine.  Even though I frequently thought about getting back in, I stayed out until just three years ago.  But in the intervening years I have done quite a bit and learned a lot that is helpful to my CAP squadron.  I graduated college with a degree in Aviation Technology.  I have earned my FAA Airframe & Powerplant along with Inspection Authorization.  I am a private pilot with single and multi-engine ratings.  I served in the US Army working on helicopters and graduated from Air Assault School.  I have worked on civilian aircraft from Cessna 150s up to large Boeings & Lockheeds.   I have worked as a mechanic, lead mechanic, supervisor and manager in aviation maintenance organizations.  I have taught subjects for my employers such as Human Factors and our Repair Station Manual procedures.  I have lived and travelled all over the US and the world.

Even with all of that, there are others in my squadron who are even more accomplished. These are the most valuable assets in CAP.

However, if someone would rather have a cadet fresh out of CP rather than us, well I will just say that is their personal belief and I guess they are entitled to it.   I just happen to disagree. 

[Ned]

Perhaps at this point it is worth remembering that a minority of our dedicated members work primarily in the critical Emergency Services mission.  Most CAP members work primarily in our highly successful cadet program.

By definition, experienced former cadets are incredible assets to the largest mission in CAP.

[Майор Хаткевич]

In respect to CAP I'd take a cadet turned SM any day over 40 year old John Smith who just walked into his first ever meeting. Age old wisdom is seldom actual wisdom and skill based knowledge tends to ignore age quite well.

IMHO, that depends a lot on the type of squadron. When you're looking at CP, a former cadet might have some higher level of knowledge, but when you're talking about a Senior squadron, I'll take a 40 yo with mission skills over a fresh cadet-turned-SM.

Read my post again. A new SM who was a cadet is > than a new SM at his first meeting ever. As to the AD Military, Pilots, Fire/EMTs who join, the majority of our members are not in those three categories. Most of our pilots it seems are hobby pilots who found a great way to enjoy flying while doing something good. The rest of our membership is quite diverse, but is in no way limited nor better specifically because of some members and not others. A lot of our problems are BECAUSE of people who "BTDT", but don't do it the CAP way.

[jeders]

A lot of our problems are BECAUSE of people who "BTDT", but don't do it the CAP way.

This is very true. But it also applies to former cadets turned SM who have BTDT. This is why when I was a DCC and a CC, I wouldn't allow a former cadet to work CP for a minimum of 6-12 months. I wanted them to be a SM first and learn the CAP way.

[MajorM]

During college I earned my Spaatz, was on an NCC team, commanded an encampment, went on three national activities, went on IACE, and served as the "stand-in" (with two other Spaatz cadets) for the Wing DCP when that person left for medical issues.

I think I learned more about leadership in those four years than in my previous six.  Granted I did start college at 17.

[Nathan]

A lot of our problems are BECAUSE of people who "BTDT", but don't do it the CAP way.

This is very true. But it also applies to former cadets turned SM who have BTDT. This is why when I was a DCC and a CC, I wouldn't allow a former cadet to work CP for a minimum of 6-12 months. I wanted them to be a SM first and learn the CAP way.

Yeah, I've heard of these requirements, and didn't really understand them, at least for higher-level cadets. I can honestly say that my cadet-to-senior transition wasn't really as dramatic as many of the senior members had tried to convince me it would be. I think a lot of seniors forget that by the time I had become a senior member, I had been working primarily with the senior member leaders of the cadet program.

That's not to say that SOME of my responsibilities didn't change, but there really wasn't much of a difference between how people treated me when I put on my Captain bars for the first time.

[Eclipse]

For every cadet who makes the transition smoothly and is an asset to the CP immediately, there are 10 who don't / aren't.
How they comported themselves as cadets is usually an indicator of how the transition will go, but my experience is that
in more cases then not, if there isn't a literally break from the CP for a bit, the members never get fully out of the cadet mindset,
and I don't mean that in a positive way.

A break insures they better understand their role as senior members, and exposes them to the "real" CAP.

[jimmydeanno]

I think my unit is rather rare, when it comes to the average age of SMs, and the amount of former cadets we have.

We only have one senior who is over age 40.

Of the 22ish seniors, 17 or so are former cadets under the age of 30, and we're about to get two more seniors who are transferring from cadet to senior status.

[Critical AOA]

During college I earned my Spaatz, was on an NCC team, commanded an encampment, went on three national activities, went on IACE, and served as the "stand-in" (with two other Spaatz cadets) for the Wing DCP when that person left for medical issues.

I think I learned more about leadership in those four years than in my previous six.  Granted I did start college at 17.

:clap:

And that is exactly the point I tried to make in my first post on this thread. 

[Critical AOA]

Perhaps at this point it is worth remembering that a minority of our dedicated members work primarily in the critical Emergency Services mission. Most CAP members work primarily in our highly successful cadet program.

Are you referring to only senior members or are you counting cadets in that statement?  Yes if you count cadets then the cadet program has more members than the ES mission.  However, one must recall that the current discussion is about the relative worth of various "types" of Senior Members. I do not have access to any nationwide numbers but every squadron I have been in or visited, there were just a few seniors working with the cadets and many more performing ES functions or working on becoming ES qualified.

By definition, experienced former cadets are incredible assets to the largest mission in CAP.

No one is arguing that former cadets are not an asset or that they cannot become great senior members.  They absolutely can and do!  The argument is more one of the timeline of getting there and their effectiveness in the meantime.

[Critical AOA]

In respect to CAP I'd take a cadet turned SM any day over 40 year old John Smith who just walked into his first ever meeting. Age old wisdom is seldom actual wisdom and skill based knowledge tends to ignore age quite well.

IMHO, that depends a lot on the type of squadron. When you're looking at CP, a former cadet might have some higher level of knowledge, but when you're talking about a Senior squadron, I'll take a 40 yo with mission skills over a fresh cadet-turned-SM.

Read my post again. A new SM who was a cadet is > than a new SM at his first meeting ever. As to the AD Military, Pilots, Fire/EMTs who join, the majority of our members are not in those three categories. Most of our pilots it seems are hobby pilots who found a great way to enjoy flying while doing something good. The rest of our membership is quite diverse, but is in no way limited nor better specifically because of some members and not others. A lot of our problems are BECAUSE of people who "BTDT", but don't do it the CAP way.

If I had to make a choice between two individuals with one being a former cadet who just became a SM and the other being an older adult with real world experiences, education and training but has never been in CAP; I would take the adult.  Teaching him the CAP way as it has been described will be much quicker and easier than teaching the cadet all of the things the experienced adult already knows.   Fortunately we are able to take both types and turn both of them into great senior members as long as the motivation and maturity is there.  However, the experienced adult will get there sooner in almost all cases.  Do not so lightly dismiss those who have been there, done that. 

[Rodriguez]

Ive been in CAP 7 years now, Im going on my 2nd year of college, still a cadet. Took some time off when I went to Infantry OSUT for the Army Guard but i'm now an active reservist and still a cadet. My main reasons for staying a cadet were partly to work towards my C/Col. But mainly to give back to the cadets under me, it may sound weird but I basically take on some of the support work and do supply or logistics so the younger Cadets can take care of their guys and focus more on leading them as opposed to worrying about where they're gonna get the equipment or facilities they need for activities.

[Майор Хаткевич]

If I had to make a choice between two individuals with one being a former cadet who just became a SM and the other being an older adult with real world experiences, education and training but has never been in CAP; I would take the adult.  Teaching him the CAP way as it has been described will be much quicker and easier than teaching the cadet all of the things the experienced adult already knows.   Fortunately we are able to take both types and turn both of them into great senior members as long as the motivation and maturity is there.  However, the experienced adult will get there sooner in almost all cases.  Do not so lightly dismiss those who have been there, done that.

What BTDT experience makes a 40 year old Banker/Business owner/mechanic/computer programmer/engineer/editor better at using an LPER? Doing a line search? Operating a radio? Looking out the window of an airplane?

I can probably find more biological reasons of why someone older is "slower" at picking these things up compared to a younger individual.

Sweeping statements like yours are basically reverse ageism where there shouldn't be any. A BCT recruit at 18, 28 or 38 is going to learn the same things, and starts at the same ground zero as everyone else. The "advantage" a former cadet may have is already having some idea as to the training CAP does, the HUGE web infrastructure we currently have for all of our online learning and resources, and an already general predisposition/motivation to get involved.

I'm not saying a cadet turned SM is better in all instances, but to say that it's natural for them to end up in the "back of the room" while completely new people off the street are granted more respect, opportunity and credibility right off the bat is simply wrong. I guess it's me being on the young side of the equation, but I would have a hard time respecting or following anyone who would think that a member with a CAPID in the 5XX,XXXs is a better asset or member than someone in their 3XX,XXXs any day.

[Eclipse]

You're mixing a technical skill with managerial / life experience, and we don't do anything in ES which requires hair-trigger
reactions, or where a reasonably healthy 40 year old would be better or worse then a reasonably healthy 19 year old.

I can teach both the new cadet and the new senior how to us an L-Per equally well in the exact same 30 minutes.

You can't cram subjective life experience into anything but life experience.  That will come into play in everything from
dealing with adolescent behavior issues (because you have kids of your own), to direct experience with being either a manager
or worker bee in a professional environment (etc., etc).

You also can't teach "life chess" - the only way to "get it" is to lose your queen once in a while, or pay attention to others who
have.  One only needs to look to a few posters here who have a lot of personal drama to know what I mean.  Not everything
in life is "equal" or "100", but when you're 18, everything is a cause yo must fight to the death for.

Wrench turning can be taught, life has to be lived.

We can also talk about risk - a big part of leadership is managing risk properly while still accomplishing the mission.  Young people
are invulnerable, invincible, with little to worry about in regards to risk.  Adults with jobs, families, and mortgages are much more inclined to
make less-risky decisions, since they understand how much is at stake.

[Nathan]

Guys, the whole point of the cadet program IS to provide life experiences. An experienced cadet is going to have well above the average amount of experience in leadership and management.

If you can't trust one of your former cadets to hold a job that you'd trust a complete n00b 40-year old recruit to do, then what exactly ARE you training your cadets to do? Wear uniforms? Drill?

I understand that there are extremes in all situations, and there are certainly former cadets who should probably have no responsibility for a while. But I'll say again that this has less to do with the member being a former cadet, and more on the member simply not being qualified for the position. This is a decision that can be made on an individual basis with absolutely no regard as to their age or former membership status.

[AngelWings]

Assuming an older individual has more USEFUL life experience than a younger individual is ass-uming that age equals more usefulness. A 20 year old ANG Airman will have more practical and useful ES experience than the 40 year old Banker who has more experience in dealing with people in a truely professional setting (warzones and barracks are not professional settings or so I'm told  ).

A great leader will factor in a few things:

Qualifications: What is this member qualified to do?

Useful: What is this member going to be best used for?

Expertise: What is this member extremely knowledgable in?

Skill: What is this members specific ability that'll seperate them from the rest of the team?

Team: How does this member interact with the team?

This system, the QUEST system, is a general guideline I use for weighing in people. A situation here that'll apply to topic of younger versus older.

(A) is a 20 year old and (B) is a 40 year old.

There are two men who've come to the squadron as current CAP members. Both are transferring to Nevader from the country of ES-tonia. A van is being filled to respond to a real mission with a downed pilot. One seat is open, and they can only pick one man. The pilot crashed in the lucious forest. One is qualified a Paramedic and GTM1 working in forested areas (A) and one is a Fire Fighter used to working in cities and UDF + CERT (B). One of the men (A) is useful in tropical terrain naviagation, and the other is useful in Urban navigation (B). (A) is an expert in tracking clues in the forest and (B) is an expert at extracting people from buring wreckages. (A) is an extrovert and very professional and (B) is more reserved and needs to warm up to people.

The member chosen was (A). While both are definitely (B)(A), (A) has the right experience for the job.

Now do you see something I didn't consider as a factor? AGE! Age is useless in gauging people.

[EMT-83]

The above post was written by a 15 year old, according to his profile. Someone with great ideas, but zero life experience.

I have no real opinion on cadets being more valuable than non-cadets. I have seen examples for both sides of the argument.