Cadets in college

[cadetesman]

So I've noticed that some cadets stay in as cadets, in college...even some who are in ROTC.

Personally, I really don't see the point of being a cadet after high school....

As for being a Senior Member, I easily can see many rationales for why one would want to be.

Personally, if one is a college student who wants to be in CAP, I see much more possible fulfillment as a Senior Member.

Thoughts?

Thank you

[Eclipse]

You can be a senior member your entire life, but a cadet only up until 21. Transitioning early slams the door on a lot of opportunities, while not offering nearly as much in return as a new senior member.

There is also the practical reality of age and experience.  A 19 year old cadet is going to be at the top of the adolescent food chain, and usually near the pinnacle of a successful CAP cadet career,  whereas a 19 year old senior member will be starting over, usually expected to bide some time before he has enough real experience to take on serious responsibilities. You can shout about the regs and fairness all you like, but few adults will be interested in interacting with a 19 year old with any expectation that they are peers.  This is just reality.

There are also nontrivial issues of fraternization, with cadets who were peers a day ago and now must be kept at a distance.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I know a cadet who just started college and is in AFROTC. He was promoted to C/1st Lt right before going off to school, but his personal goals include getting at least his Earhart, and staffing at least one more Encampment as an Executive staff cadet. Can't do either of those as a SM.

I personally stayed on as a cadet when I went off to college, and had hopes of trying to get to C/Major before aging out. It didn't work out, and when I was living in the suburbs for a few weeks in the summer, I went ahead and submitted my request to turn SM (at 20.5 years old). I was then active for a bit the following Summer, and only fully re-engaged this Summer once done with College and moving out of the city and into the area where my squadron is located.

I know of at least one cadet who stayed on during college, earned his Eaker, and took his shots at the Spaatz. He was able to staff a few encampments, helped stand up a new unit, and is now a SM.

It's different everyone, and as Eclipse said, transferring at 18 shuts a lot of doors (NCSAs, IACE, Encampments, Flight Academies, etc), as well as dumping a previous cadet into SM/FO roles where most of the other SM still think of them as cadets/not-really-SMs anyway.

[Garibaldi]

All I can say is that the grass is greener on the other side. WIWAC, I wanted to be a Senior because they didn't have to march or stand in formation. When I became a Senior, I started to miss all the stuff that I did as a cadet. Granted, I was 25 when I rejoined as a Senior but still.

I don't really think that 2 or 3 years is long enough to really enjoy the aspects of being a cadet at 18 or 19 if you know when it's going to end. You feel rushed, especially if you are cramming CAP into your life as a college student.

[Nathan]

During college, I earned my Spaatz, went to IACE, and commanded an encampment. It was definitely worth the extra work.

[Walkman]

IIRC, doesn't Spaatz require 5 years? I can see someone joining later in HS and wanting to stay in during college to have enough TIS to earn the Spaatz.

[C/2d Lt]

There is a cadet at my squadron who in in college ROTC and is a C/LT. Col(Sorry if the Abbreviation is wrong). He is staying in the squadron, as a cadet, so he can reach his Spaatz. I could be incorrect on this but I have not heard of having to be in for five years for your Spaatz.

[Eclipse]

It's not "being in for five years" it's how much minimum clock time is required to get there based on the spacing of progression and testing.

[MajorM]

Minimum time to Spaatz is 2 years, 8 months if you can manage to promote every two months.

[a2capt]

During college, I earned my Spaatz, went to IACE, and commanded an encampment. It was definitely worth the extra work.

..and I bet you went to the local unit meetings too, and participated

[Critical AOA]

There are many good reasons to stay as a cadet and these have been posted above by others.

Perhaps the best reason though is for leadership experience.  As a senior Cadet, you will have more opportunities to hone your leadership and managerial skills.  This will come in handy later in both your real world life as well as CAP.

Whereas as a junior Senior Member, you could be relegated to back of the room status until you prove yourself to the rest of the seniors and the squadron command staff.  This is probably less of a factor in a composite squadron where the two groups are fairly integrated and you are well known but it is a very real possibility if you are moving from a Cadet squadron to a Senior squadron or making the switch in a less than fully integrated Composite squadron.

There are pros and cons either way and the decision is ultimately up to each individual.   Just don't feel all down and out if you go from being highly regarded as a cadet to somewhat disregarded as a very young senior. 

[C/2d Lt]

You can also think of it as you can only be a cadet for a certain amount of time and you can become a senior member any time you want after you are 18(To an extent). We recently had a cadet change into a senior member. He likes it however he wishes that he stayed a cadet for longer so he could have advanced in the program more. He also liked the freedoms of the cadet side of things. (Senior members have to be more strict). He did love having the room called to attention and cadet saluting him/calling him sir.

[KMcCann]

I'm currenly in college and I chose to go the senior member route, and I agree that it is a much more fulfilling route to take. I was a C/Capt, so I'm a TFO. With the flight officer program, it also gives me time to do the requirements, and also makes it easier to have a duty position from farther away from the unit. (i.e it's hard to be a flight sergeant when you can't show up to meetings, while an asst ES officer position or asst AE officer position is there to aid the primary with their plans, such as making a powerpoint which cn be emailed)

Another reason I transitioned is because I just turned 18, and I was officially an Adult, and being a cadet still made me feel like a child. This way, especially with the flight officer program, I get a good head start with the tests and specialty tracks as well. But that's just my point of view.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Whereas as a junior Senior Member, you could be relegated to back of the room status until you prove yourself to the rest of the seniors and the squadron command staff. 

That's just wrong.

Another reason I transitioned is because I just turned 18, and I was officially an Adult, and being a cadet still made me feel like a child.

Lots of Children up to the age of 27 occupy certain colleges in this country...

[KMcCann]

Lots of Children up to the age of 27 occupy certain colleges in this country...

That isn't the point. And those people most likely aren't in CAP anyways.

[Eclipse]

Lots of Children up to the age of 27 occupy certain colleges in this country...

That isn't the point. And those people most likely aren't in CAP anyways.

At 18 you've got about 10 years before anyone will consider you an adult.

Now get off my lawn!!!

[KMcCann]

Lots of Children up to the age of 27 occupy certain colleges in this country...

That isn't the point. And those people most likely aren't in CAP anyways.

At 18 you've got about 10 years before anyone will consider you an adult.

Now get off my lawn!!!

You, sir, have one very large lawn.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Lots of Children up to the age of 27 occupy certain colleges in this country...

That isn't the point. And those people most likely aren't in CAP anyways.

At 18 you've got about 10 years before anyone will consider you an adult.

Now get off my lawn!!!

Probably at least partially true. At 22/23 most of my friends are still in high school mode...

[Eclipse]

As well they should.

A lesson learned too late is that you're only young once, but are old forever.

[Майор Хаткевич]

As well they should.

A lesson learned too late is that you're only young once, but are old forever.

A lesson about 4.5 years late.

[Critical AOA]

Whereas as a junior Senior Member, you could be relegated to back of the room status until you prove yourself to the rest of the seniors and the squadron command staff. 

That's just wrong.

I am not saying it is right or wrong, just that it is highly probable.  In a room full of 40 - 70+ year olds with lifetimes full of real world experiences, both military and civilian, an 18 - 20 year old will seldom if ever be looked at in the same light as the old guys look at one another.  That is true in any organization.  Newbies are newbies.

And it seems like you might understand this at least a little by the following:

At 18 you've got about 10 years before anyone will consider you an adult.
Now get off my lawn!!!

Probably at least partially true. At 22/23 most of my friends are still in high school mode...

You might not like it but if you don't at least see it as a reality, you are only kidding yourself.... as kids seem to do.

[Майор Хаткевич]

In respect to CAP I'd take a cadet turned SM any day over 40 year old John Smith who just walked into his first ever meeting. Age old wisdom is seldom actual wisdom and skill based knowledge tends to ignore age quite well.

[SarDragon]

In respect to CAP I'd take a cadet turned SM any day over 40 year old John Smith who just walked into his first ever meeting. Age old wisdom is seldom actual wisdom and skill based knowledge tends to ignore age quite well.

IMHO, that depends a lot on the type of squadron. When you're looking at CP, a former cadet might have some higher level of knowledge, but when you're talking about a Senior squadron, I'll take a 40 yo with mission skills over a fresh cadet-turned-SM.

[Critical AOA]

In respect to CAP I'd take a cadet turned SM any day over 40 year old John Smith who just walked into his first ever meeting. Age old wisdom is seldom actual wisdom and skill based knowledge tends to ignore age quite well.

IMHO, that depends a lot on the type of squadron. When you're looking at CP, a former cadet might have some higher level of knowledge, but when you're talking about a Senior squadron, I'll take a 40 yo with mission skills over a fresh cadet-turned-SM.

Especially when the vast majority of 40 year olds or older who join CAP seem to either be military veterans or pilots or both.  These are people with the skills required to fulfill the main mission of CAP which is Emergency Services / SAR.  Yes I know some like to look at all three missions of CAP equally and put AE & CP on an equal footing with ES but that simply isn't realistic.

Having experienced adult professionals who have served in the military, were airline pilots or were in another occupation such as fire / rescue and have gained valuable mission oriented skills is far more important to the success of the ES mission than a young person who just came out of the cadet ranks even though that young person might have some good AE knowledge and know how to wear his ribbons on his blues. 

These same pilots by the way are the same individuals who fly cadet O-flights, often teach AE and assist in other ways in CP in addition to fulfilling their ES duties.  Not too many 18 -20 something year olds have the required knowledge, skills, PIC hours, etc. to do this.

Now, I have nothing against CP.  I was a cadet back in the late 70s.  I earned my Mitchell and was almost ready for my Earhart when I graduated high school, went to college and dropped out of CAP which is a regret of mine.  Even though I frequently thought about getting back in, I stayed out until just three years ago.  But in the intervening years I have done quite a bit and learned a lot that is helpful to my CAP squadron.  I graduated college with a degree in Aviation Technology.  I have earned my FAA Airframe & Powerplant along with Inspection Authorization.  I am a private pilot with single and multi-engine ratings.  I served in the US Army working on helicopters and graduated from Air Assault School.  I have worked on civilian aircraft from Cessna 150s up to large Boeings & Lockheeds.   I have worked as a mechanic, lead mechanic, supervisor and manager in aviation maintenance organizations.  I have taught subjects for my employers such as Human Factors and our Repair Station Manual procedures.  I have lived and travelled all over the US and the world.

Even with all of that, there are others in my squadron who are even more accomplished. These are the most valuable assets in CAP.

However, if someone would rather have a cadet fresh out of CP rather than us, well I will just say that is their personal belief and I guess they are entitled to it.   I just happen to disagree. 

[Ned]

Perhaps at this point it is worth remembering that a minority of our dedicated members work primarily in the critical Emergency Services mission.  Most CAP members work primarily in our highly successful cadet program.

By definition, experienced former cadets are incredible assets to the largest mission in CAP.

[Майор Хаткевич]

In respect to CAP I'd take a cadet turned SM any day over 40 year old John Smith who just walked into his first ever meeting. Age old wisdom is seldom actual wisdom and skill based knowledge tends to ignore age quite well.

IMHO, that depends a lot on the type of squadron. When you're looking at CP, a former cadet might have some higher level of knowledge, but when you're talking about a Senior squadron, I'll take a 40 yo with mission skills over a fresh cadet-turned-SM.

Read my post again. A new SM who was a cadet is > than a new SM at his first meeting ever. As to the AD Military, Pilots, Fire/EMTs who join, the majority of our members are not in those three categories. Most of our pilots it seems are hobby pilots who found a great way to enjoy flying while doing something good. The rest of our membership is quite diverse, but is in no way limited nor better specifically because of some members and not others. A lot of our problems are BECAUSE of people who "BTDT", but don't do it the CAP way.

[jeders]

A lot of our problems are BECAUSE of people who "BTDT", but don't do it the CAP way.

This is very true. But it also applies to former cadets turned SM who have BTDT. This is why when I was a DCC and a CC, I wouldn't allow a former cadet to work CP for a minimum of 6-12 months. I wanted them to be a SM first and learn the CAP way.

[MajorM]

During college I earned my Spaatz, was on an NCC team, commanded an encampment, went on three national activities, went on IACE, and served as the "stand-in" (with two other Spaatz cadets) for the Wing DCP when that person left for medical issues.

I think I learned more about leadership in those four years than in my previous six.  Granted I did start college at 17.

[Nathan]

A lot of our problems are BECAUSE of people who "BTDT", but don't do it the CAP way.

This is very true. But it also applies to former cadets turned SM who have BTDT. This is why when I was a DCC and a CC, I wouldn't allow a former cadet to work CP for a minimum of 6-12 months. I wanted them to be a SM first and learn the CAP way.

Yeah, I've heard of these requirements, and didn't really understand them, at least for higher-level cadets. I can honestly say that my cadet-to-senior transition wasn't really as dramatic as many of the senior members had tried to convince me it would be. I think a lot of seniors forget that by the time I had become a senior member, I had been working primarily with the senior member leaders of the cadet program.

That's not to say that SOME of my responsibilities didn't change, but there really wasn't much of a difference between how people treated me when I put on my Captain bars for the first time.

[Eclipse]

For every cadet who makes the transition smoothly and is an asset to the CP immediately, there are 10 who don't / aren't.
How they comported themselves as cadets is usually an indicator of how the transition will go, but my experience is that
in more cases then not, if there isn't a literally break from the CP for a bit, the members never get fully out of the cadet mindset,
and I don't mean that in a positive way.

A break insures they better understand their role as senior members, and exposes them to the "real" CAP.

[jimmydeanno]

I think my unit is rather rare, when it comes to the average age of SMs, and the amount of former cadets we have.

We only have one senior who is over age 40.

Of the 22ish seniors, 17 or so are former cadets under the age of 30, and we're about to get two more seniors who are transferring from cadet to senior status.

[Critical AOA]

During college I earned my Spaatz, was on an NCC team, commanded an encampment, went on three national activities, went on IACE, and served as the "stand-in" (with two other Spaatz cadets) for the Wing DCP when that person left for medical issues.

I think I learned more about leadership in those four years than in my previous six.  Granted I did start college at 17.

:clap:

And that is exactly the point I tried to make in my first post on this thread. 

[Critical AOA]

Perhaps at this point it is worth remembering that a minority of our dedicated members work primarily in the critical Emergency Services mission. Most CAP members work primarily in our highly successful cadet program.

Are you referring to only senior members or are you counting cadets in that statement?  Yes if you count cadets then the cadet program has more members than the ES mission.  However, one must recall that the current discussion is about the relative worth of various "types" of Senior Members. I do not have access to any nationwide numbers but every squadron I have been in or visited, there were just a few seniors working with the cadets and many more performing ES functions or working on becoming ES qualified.

By definition, experienced former cadets are incredible assets to the largest mission in CAP.

No one is arguing that former cadets are not an asset or that they cannot become great senior members.  They absolutely can and do!  The argument is more one of the timeline of getting there and their effectiveness in the meantime.

[Critical AOA]

In respect to CAP I'd take a cadet turned SM any day over 40 year old John Smith who just walked into his first ever meeting. Age old wisdom is seldom actual wisdom and skill based knowledge tends to ignore age quite well.

IMHO, that depends a lot on the type of squadron. When you're looking at CP, a former cadet might have some higher level of knowledge, but when you're talking about a Senior squadron, I'll take a 40 yo with mission skills over a fresh cadet-turned-SM.

Read my post again. A new SM who was a cadet is > than a new SM at his first meeting ever. As to the AD Military, Pilots, Fire/EMTs who join, the majority of our members are not in those three categories. Most of our pilots it seems are hobby pilots who found a great way to enjoy flying while doing something good. The rest of our membership is quite diverse, but is in no way limited nor better specifically because of some members and not others. A lot of our problems are BECAUSE of people who "BTDT", but don't do it the CAP way.

If I had to make a choice between two individuals with one being a former cadet who just became a SM and the other being an older adult with real world experiences, education and training but has never been in CAP; I would take the adult.  Teaching him the CAP way as it has been described will be much quicker and easier than teaching the cadet all of the things the experienced adult already knows.   Fortunately we are able to take both types and turn both of them into great senior members as long as the motivation and maturity is there.  However, the experienced adult will get there sooner in almost all cases.  Do not so lightly dismiss those who have been there, done that. 

[Rodriguez]

Ive been in CAP 7 years now, Im going on my 2nd year of college, still a cadet. Took some time off when I went to Infantry OSUT for the Army Guard but i'm now an active reservist and still a cadet. My main reasons for staying a cadet were partly to work towards my C/Col. But mainly to give back to the cadets under me, it may sound weird but I basically take on some of the support work and do supply or logistics so the younger Cadets can take care of their guys and focus more on leading them as opposed to worrying about where they're gonna get the equipment or facilities they need for activities.

[Майор Хаткевич]

If I had to make a choice between two individuals with one being a former cadet who just became a SM and the other being an older adult with real world experiences, education and training but has never been in CAP; I would take the adult.  Teaching him the CAP way as it has been described will be much quicker and easier than teaching the cadet all of the things the experienced adult already knows.   Fortunately we are able to take both types and turn both of them into great senior members as long as the motivation and maturity is there.  However, the experienced adult will get there sooner in almost all cases.  Do not so lightly dismiss those who have been there, done that.

What BTDT experience makes a 40 year old Banker/Business owner/mechanic/computer programmer/engineer/editor better at using an LPER? Doing a line search? Operating a radio? Looking out the window of an airplane?

I can probably find more biological reasons of why someone older is "slower" at picking these things up compared to a younger individual.

Sweeping statements like yours are basically reverse ageism where there shouldn't be any. A BCT recruit at 18, 28 or 38 is going to learn the same things, and starts at the same ground zero as everyone else. The "advantage" a former cadet may have is already having some idea as to the training CAP does, the HUGE web infrastructure we currently have for all of our online learning and resources, and an already general predisposition/motivation to get involved.

I'm not saying a cadet turned SM is better in all instances, but to say that it's natural for them to end up in the "back of the room" while completely new people off the street are granted more respect, opportunity and credibility right off the bat is simply wrong. I guess it's me being on the young side of the equation, but I would have a hard time respecting or following anyone who would think that a member with a CAPID in the 5XX,XXXs is a better asset or member than someone in their 3XX,XXXs any day.

[Eclipse]

You're mixing a technical skill with managerial / life experience, and we don't do anything in ES which requires hair-trigger
reactions, or where a reasonably healthy 40 year old would be better or worse then a reasonably healthy 19 year old.

I can teach both the new cadet and the new senior how to us an L-Per equally well in the exact same 30 minutes.

You can't cram subjective life experience into anything but life experience.  That will come into play in everything from
dealing with adolescent behavior issues (because you have kids of your own), to direct experience with being either a manager
or worker bee in a professional environment (etc., etc).

You also can't teach "life chess" - the only way to "get it" is to lose your queen once in a while, or pay attention to others who
have.  One only needs to look to a few posters here who have a lot of personal drama to know what I mean.  Not everything
in life is "equal" or "100", but when you're 18, everything is a cause yo must fight to the death for.

Wrench turning can be taught, life has to be lived.

We can also talk about risk - a big part of leadership is managing risk properly while still accomplishing the mission.  Young people
are invulnerable, invincible, with little to worry about in regards to risk.  Adults with jobs, families, and mortgages are much more inclined to
make less-risky decisions, since they understand how much is at stake.

[Nathan]

Guys, the whole point of the cadet program IS to provide life experiences. An experienced cadet is going to have well above the average amount of experience in leadership and management.

If you can't trust one of your former cadets to hold a job that you'd trust a complete n00b 40-year old recruit to do, then what exactly ARE you training your cadets to do? Wear uniforms? Drill?

I understand that there are extremes in all situations, and there are certainly former cadets who should probably have no responsibility for a while. But I'll say again that this has less to do with the member being a former cadet, and more on the member simply not being qualified for the position. This is a decision that can be made on an individual basis with absolutely no regard as to their age or former membership status.

[AngelWings]

Assuming an older individual has more USEFUL life experience than a younger individual is ass-uming that age equals more usefulness. A 20 year old ANG Airman will have more practical and useful ES experience than the 40 year old Banker who has more experience in dealing with people in a truely professional setting (warzones and barracks are not professional settings or so I'm told  ).

A great leader will factor in a few things:

Qualifications: What is this member qualified to do?

Useful: What is this member going to be best used for?

Expertise: What is this member extremely knowledgable in?

Skill: What is this members specific ability that'll seperate them from the rest of the team?

Team: How does this member interact with the team?

This system, the QUEST system, is a general guideline I use for weighing in people. A situation here that'll apply to topic of younger versus older.

(A) is a 20 year old and (B) is a 40 year old.

There are two men who've come to the squadron as current CAP members. Both are transferring to Nevader from the country of ES-tonia. A van is being filled to respond to a real mission with a downed pilot. One seat is open, and they can only pick one man. The pilot crashed in the lucious forest. One is qualified a Paramedic and GTM1 working in forested areas (A) and one is a Fire Fighter used to working in cities and UDF + CERT (B). One of the men (A) is useful in tropical terrain naviagation, and the other is useful in Urban navigation (B). (A) is an expert in tracking clues in the forest and (B) is an expert at extracting people from buring wreckages. (A) is an extrovert and very professional and (B) is more reserved and needs to warm up to people.

The member chosen was (A). While both are definitely (B)(A), (A) has the right experience for the job.

Now do you see something I didn't consider as a factor? AGE! Age is useless in gauging people.

[EMT-83]

The above post was written by a 15 year old, according to his profile. Someone with great ideas, but zero life experience.

I have no real opinion on cadets being more valuable than non-cadets. I have seen examples for both sides of the argument.

[AngelWings]

The above post was written by a 15 year old, according to his profile. Someone with great ideas, but zero life experience.

A given. For me, it's all about soaking in as much as I can at an early age so I can disprove peoples assumptions through actions.

[Equinox]

Get this . . .

I know a former active duty Army PFC that's currently a C/2nd Lt.

To make things even more wacky, he wears the blue field uniform.

[Rodriguez]

Get this . . .

I know a former active duty Army PFC that's currently a C/2nd Lt.

To make things even more wacky, he wears the blue field uniform.

Surprisingly theres a lot of us active military simultaneous cadets in the woodwork at least in my wing.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Get this . . .

I know a former active duty Army PFC that's currently a C/2nd Lt.

To make things even more wacky, he wears the blue field uniform.

Surprisingly theres a lot of us active military simultaneous cadets in the woodwork at least in my wing.

Then you are breaking regs...

[PWK-GT]

^^You mean, like CAPR39-2, Chapter 2-5  ??

CAPR 39-2 2 AUGUST 2012
2-5. Upon Joining the Armed Forces. Cadets who join any branch of the active duty Armed Forces (this does not include military service academies) will furnish NHQ/PMM written notification along with a CAPF 12 and FD Form 258 (see sample at attachment 5), at which time they will be automatically transferred to senior membership status. Additional membership dues are not required for the duration of the current membership year; they will be billed as senior member renewals. NOTE: Cadets who join the National Guard or Reserves are not required to become seniors upon attending "basic training." Regardless of the wording of the orders, "basic training" is not interpreted by CAP as "extended active duty." However, National Guard or Reserve members who enter "extended active duty" are not eligible to be cadets and must become senior members. Individuals who join the Armed Forces under the delayed enlistment program are not required to become senior members until such time as they actually report for duty.

[HGjunkie]

That cites AD military, but reserve/guard components aren't bothered by that. Cadets can be concurrent Reserve/Guard military members and CAP cadets at once.

[jimmydeanno]

Surprisingly theres a lot of us active military simultaneous cadets in the woodwork at least in my wing.

That cites AD military, but reserve/guard components aren't bothered by that. Cadets can be concurrent Reserve/Guard military members and CAP cadets at once.

[Eclipse]

That cites AD military, but reserve/guard components aren't bothered by that. Cadets can be concurrent Reserve/Guard military members and CAP cadets at once.

There are nuances to what is considered "active duty", and sometimes something we'd all consider AD, isn't, at least legally,
however once a cadets goes on active duty, regardless of the service they are in, including Guard and Reserve, they are no longer cadets.

Any commander ignoring the fact that a cadet has joined the military in some misguided idea that it's "OK" should be relieved.

In any case, odds are this is working itself out as we speak, as things like this mentioned publicly always do.

[Garibaldi]

Any commander ignoring the fact that a cadet has joined the military in some misguided idea that it's "OK" should be relieved.

A little extreme, isn't it?

[Eclipse]

Any commander ignoring the fact that a cadet has joined the military in some misguided idea that it's "OK" should be relieved.

A little extreme, isn't it?

No, not at all.  This is a basic, important regulation which potentially involves the safety of other cadets.  If a commander
cannot be bothered to be aware of, or enforce, the basic eligibility requirements for membership, he needs to go.

CAP has made their line on this fairly bright - to me, the delineation should be completion of basic training, but regardless,
anyone on what is considered "active duty", may not be a full adult, but certainly has moved on from what CAP considers a "cadet".

The situation should be handle no less seriously,  or less expediently, then any other situation which invalidates eligibility for cadet status.

There's also this little matter of "ethics" and the core values.

[Spaceman3750]

Whether or not you should turn senior when you turn 18 depends entirely on what gives you satisfaction in this organization. As a cadet, you will have opportunities to attend some awesome NCSAs, participate in one of the best leadership training programs in the world, get hands-on leadership experience in a controlled setting where it's OK to fail as long as you learn from it (see how far that gets you in the work world), and build lifelong friendships with well-adjusted, goals-oriented peers.

Being a senior has less to do with DOING and more to do with MANAGING (ES and OPS excepted, somewhat). For example, today I get to run down an airplane for an orientation flight following some moves. I won't get to fly in the plane, or even see it, but I will beg pilots to fly for me because there's six cadets in central Illinois that need to get a taste of the miracle of flight. Let's say you help in the cadet program. You'll probably help mentor, and motivate, and coordinate, but you'll only be watching from a distance while your former peers command a flight, staff an encampment, or see the world on IACE. Don't get me wrong - I really love being a senior member. But, I'm also a big-picture guy. I don't need to be on the o-flight to get satisfaction from seeing smiles on the face of every cadet I helped put in the air that day. I get satisfaction from the fact that my squadron's cadet programs officers and aerospace education officers can do their jobs really, really well because I spin plates in the background so they can focus on these important mission areas. I also get to work with some amazing seniors, many of whom I call both role models and friends.

If you get your "self-actualization" (as Eclipse has put it before) from participating in a really cool program, stick with being a cadet. If you get your self-actualization from the success of others, then maybe it's the right jump to make. Remember, at the end of the day, it's important that you are getting the "feel good" you want out of the program, whichever side of the organization you're on. If you don't, you'll soon burn out and then you'll be lost to the organization - a waste that could have been avoided by making a different choice.

Also, to add a bit of context, I am a 21 year old senior that just transitioned out of the flight officer grades last week (hasn't even posted on eServices yet). So I have a little bit of insight into how you feel. If you do transition and become a flight officer, you are no longer a cadet. Don't act like a cadet and don't think like a cadet. You are a senior member. If you don't heed this warning, you will appear to be a cadet and will be dismissed by other seniors. If you work hard and act like an auxiliary officer, you will be accepted by any other member worth their salt.

[68w20]

Any commander ignoring the fact that a cadet has joined the military in some misguided idea that it's "OK" should be relieved.

A little extreme, isn't it?

No, not at all.  This is a basic, important regulation which potentially involves the safety of other cadets.  If a commander
cannot be bothered to be aware of, or enforce, the basic eligibility requirements for membership, he needs to go.

Could you please explain how completion of BMT would affect a Cadet's safety?  I fail to see the connection.

CAP has made their line on this fairly bright - to me, the delineation should be completion of basic training, but regardless,
anyone on what is considered "active duty", may not be a full adult, but certainly has moved on from what CAP considers a "cadet".

Except that, depending on the branch, completion of BMT/Tech School (in my branch referred to broadly as Initial Entry Training) does not constitute full active duty. 

[Eclipse]

^ For the same reason you do not mix "adults" and cadets in the same cadres.

Anyone who has completed basic training, or who is in the military on AD is no longer a cadet in the sense that CAP defines
it, they have moved on to a different level of life, experienced much more of the real world, and should not be considered a
a peer to a "normal" CAP cadet.

[Garibaldi]

I dunno...in the short time I've been here, and this is only an observation, Eclipse seems to be of the school of thought that advocates killing mosquitoes with an ICBM. Nothing against the man, but I have to disagree with his views on some topics. In which case, I'll hold my tongue, and not reply to those topics. I don't have the energy to argue.

[Eclipse]

It's called "reading the regs", "following the regs", and "not avoiding uncomfortable conversations".

In this case, you'd be arguing with clear regs as to when a member becomes ineligible for cadet status.
A regulation which is many times misguidedly ignored.

[Extremepredjudice]

I think removing a squadron commander because he didn't 2B or transfer a cadet to SM isn't fair. A reprimand is definitely fair, but not removal on his first offense.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Surprisingly theres a lot of us active military simultaneous cadets in the woodwork at least in my wing.

That cites AD military, but reserve/guard components aren't bothered by that. Cadets can be concurrent Reserve/Guard military members and CAP cadets at once.

^ +1.

If you're Nat.Guard or Reserves, then you are fine. But those branches DO go on extended active duty, and you are either overstating your "active military" status or you should not be a cadet. Simple as that.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I think removing a squadron commander because he didn't 2B or transfer a cadet to SM isn't fair. A reprimand is definitely fair, but not removal on his first offense.

It's a pretty big violation. In fact I'm pretty sure in cases like this, IF a cadet earns awards after the fact, NHQ is in their right to strip those away.

[Extremepredjudice]

I think removing a squadron commander because he didn't 2B or transfer a cadet to SM isn't fair. A reprimand is definitely fair, but not removal on his first offense.

It's a pretty big violation. In fact I'm pretty sure in cases like this, IF a cadet earns awards after the fact, NHQ is in their right to strip those away.

It is. No argument about that. I just don't think it is particularly fair to punish a squadron commander with removal.

[68w20]

It's called "reading the regs", "following the regs", and "not avoiding uncomfortable conversations".

In this case, you'd be arguing with clear regs as to when a member becomes ineligible for cadet status.
A regulation which is many times misguidedly ignored.

But the regs make it clear that Guardsmen/Reservists are exempt from the Active Duty rule.

[68w20]

^ For the same reason you do not mix "adults" and cadets in the same cadres.

Anyone who has completed basic training, or who is in the military on AD is no longer a cadet in the sense that CAP defines
it, they have moved on to a different level of life, experienced much more of the real world, and should not be considered a
a peer to a "normal" CAP cadet.

Would you make the same argument for an over-18 Cadet who's completed their first or second year in an ROTC program?

[Eclipse]

Would you make the same argument for an over-18 Cadet who's completed their first or second year in an ROTC program?

No, and neither does CAP.

[AngelWings]

So why does that rule exsist anyways?

[Garibaldi]

It's called "reading the regs", "following the regs", and "not avoiding uncomfortable conversations".

In this case, you'd be arguing with clear regs as to when a member becomes ineligible for cadet status.
A regulation which is many times misguidedly ignored.

OK...one more.

I am not "avoiding uncomfortable conversations." I am choosing my battles a little more carefully. Or are you saying avoiding uncomfortable conversations in the sense of the conversation between a cc and the cadet?

[arajca]

It's called "reading the regs", "following the regs", and "not avoiding uncomfortable conversations".

In this case, you'd be arguing with clear regs as to when a member becomes ineligible for cadet status.
A regulation which is many times misguidedly ignored.

But the regs make it clear that Guardsmen/Reservists are exempt from the Active Duty rule.

Unless they're on extended active duty, i.e called and sent overseas for six months.

[Eclipse]

Or are you saying avoiding uncomfortable conversations in the sense of the conversation between a cc and the cadet?

Correct. I'd say 1/3 of CAP's issues locally are fully-aware commanders who choose to ignore issues they are required to act on because
the conversation would be "uncomfortable" - whether that's uniforms worn inappropriately, cadets on active duty who are allowed to remain
cadets, or any of the other myriad issues which are seemingly clearly prescribed yet we can't seem to get past.

Those local problems are then exported to larger-scale activities, ES, etc. 

[68w20]

It's called "reading the regs", "following the regs", and "not avoiding uncomfortable conversations".

In this case, you'd be arguing with clear regs as to when a member becomes ineligible for cadet status.
A regulation which is many times misguidedly ignored.

But the regs make it clear that Guardsmen/Reservists are exempt from the Active Duty rule.

Unless they're on extended active duty, i.e called and sent overseas for six months.

You're absolutely correct; however Guardsmen/Reservists who have only completed IET are still exempt from the rule.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Right. At issue here is a cadet who is in the guard claiming to be active military and being aware of many others like him.

As I said earlier, either he is misusing his status and calling it active duty, or he should not be a cadet. Clear cut, and we have regulations that outline this.

[cadetesman]

Why anyone in the military would want to be a cadet befuddles me...

I mean, you're in the actual military, why would you want to be in CAP as a cadet, I mean, really...

[Extremepredjudice]

Why anyone in the military would want to be a cadet befuddles me...

I mean, you're in the actual military, why would you want to be in CAP as a cadet, I mean, really...

'Cause being a cadet is a lot of fun.

[Eclipse]

I mean, you're in the actual military, why would you want to be in CAP as a cadet, I mean, really...

There are a number of opportunities and benefits that CAP affords to its cadets, especially older ones, that you would not get by simply "being in the military".

That's why cadet status is a privilege.

[Rodriguez]

That cites AD military, but reserve/guard components aren't bothered by that. Cadets can be concurrent Reserve/Guard military members and CAP cadets at once.

Which I think is what most of you knew I meant. If i wanted to put active duty, which I currently am not, then I would have. But being in an active Guard or Reserve unit still qualifies you as a member of the "active military" your just not on active duty.

[Equinox]

I don't think the regs are for the safety of cadets, I think we have them to avoid awkwardness.

Anyways, though, anyone hear about the married 20 year old cadet airman who's a corporal in the Army? I think he graduated from his basic encampment this year.

Now wasn't that awkward?   

[MSG Mac]

Marriage automatically removes you from the cadet program.

[Ned]

Usually, but not always.

[RADIOMAN015]

I see absolutely NO advantage to CAP at the local squadron level to allow cadets who reach the age of 18 years old to remain in the cadet program.   I think it leads to other issues.    CAP is primarily a 12 to 16/17 year old program, with maybe a few staying longer.   I've noted that ALL of our cadets that have gone to college are NOT involved in the CAP program anymore.  They may be involved in ROTC and that is the correct passage in my opinion from CAP cadet status.
RM

[a2capt]

This guy is really a whackjob in disquise.

[68w20]

I see absolutely NO advantage to CAP at the local squadron level to allow cadets who reach the age of 18 years old to remain in the cadet program.   I think it leads to other issues. 

Like what?  To what issues are you specifically referring?

  CAP is primarily a 12 to 16/17 year old program, with maybe a few staying longer.   

To quote EP, please cite this.  There's plenty of data available on this topic, so I don't think it's unreasonable to ask you to substantiate this claim.

I've noted that ALL of our cadets that have gone to college are NOT involved in the CAP program anymore.  They may be involved in ROTC and that is the correct passage in my opinion from CAP cadet status.
RM

Not every Cadet goes through ROTC.  Not every Cadet has gotten the most out of CAP by the time they reach the age of 18.  After turning 17 (the age which you cite as being the time when most Cadets should leave), I participated in NESA, RCLS, COS, IACE, NBB Staff and numerous Encampments (in 3 states) as staff.  Do you genuinely believe that I had nothing to gain/offer in all of those circumstances simply based on my age?

[spaatzmom]

I see absolutely NO advantage to CAP at the local squadron level to allow cadets who reach the age of 18 years old to remain in the cadet program.   I think it leads to other issues. 

Like what?  To what issues are you specifically referring?

  CAP is primarily a 12 to 16/17 year old program, with maybe a few staying longer.   

To quote EP, please cite this.  There's plenty of data available on this topic, so I don't think it's unreasonable to ask you to substantiate this claim.

I've noted that ALL of our cadets that have gone to college are NOT involved in the CAP program anymore.  They may be involved in ROTC and that is the correct passage in my opinion from CAP cadet status.
RM

Not every Cadet goes through ROTC.  Not every Cadet has gotten the most out of CAP by the time they reach the age of 18.  After turning 17 (the age which you cite as being the time when most Cadets should leave), I participated in NESA, RCLS, COS, IACE, NBB Staff and numerous Encampments (in 3 states) as staff.  Do you genuinely believe that I had nothing to gain/offer in all of those circumstances simply based on my age?

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