Term of Address for a C/CMSgt serving as First Sergeant?

Started by titanII, November 26, 2011, 02:21:50 AM

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lordmonar

#60
The point is that you may be, from time to time, to do things that are stupid and/or wrong.

That's life.

At encampment you can a) refuse to play the game and stand your ground on the basis of regulations and take what ever lumps come with it.  b) Void your integrity and follow along and purpetuate wrong practices and faulty ideas....and take what ever lumps come with that. c) something in between.  Choosing which fights to fight and establishing where you personal integrity lies and do what you got to do to survive the experince....and take the lumps that come with it.

This too is also life.

What you do when you go home it the most important part.

Just because the encampment first sergeant wants you to yell "yes first sergeant!" does not mean you must bring that back home with you.
Just because Squadron X sports the first sergeant diamond on SSgt stripes does not mean you have to as well.
PAWG sports a whole lot of ranger bling......I don't waste my time moaning about it.....but when one of those guys transfers to my unit.....off it comes.

Does any of this matter?  Not in the big scheme of things.  Levilocking wants to be called FIRST SERGEANT.....okay it ain't going to end the world.  But he is wrong and I will tell him so.  If his reasoning can't stand up to a CAPTALK rebuffing......then his attitude is going to get him into trouble some day....again....that's life.

And once again.....here is a difference between refering to the guy who holds the job as "first sergeant/shirt/top/what ever" and using in place of when you should be saying "sir/ma'am/sergeant/Chief".

Every summer following encampment I have to retrain my cadets.....they are always yelling "yes First Sergeant" and the like.
If you need an argument to stop that practice.....you simply have to ask..."why does the first sergeant get a special term of address but the commander/operations officer/deputy commander for senors/adminstration officer/flight commander or flight sergeant don't"?

If they try say tradition you can tell them that three retired military NCO's (one USN and two USAF) have told you in no uncertain terms that it is NOT an USAF tradition.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SarDragon

Part of the problem here is underlying attitudes. A "you will or else" pronouncement is NOT the best way to express yourself, particularly when the "way" in not within the regs. A belligerent tone is bad mojo. Most of the "shirt" usage is on a cordial, semi-formal basis.

Similarly, an "in your face" objection at encampment isn't going to make your week as much fun as it might have been. As has been noted, you need to know how to pick your battles, AND how to fight them, so that both sides gain in the end.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

RobertAmphibian

Seeing something like this at encampment is a great example of how to make an improvement to the cadet program.

At my basic encampment, I was taught that shirts were always addressed as "First Sergeant", and this matched what I saw at my home squadron. As I progressed through the Cadet NCO grades, I did a little research and found out that cadets should be addressed by grade. I had a conversation with my C/CC, and it was corrected at my home squadron.

I've staffed a few encampments, and I've personally ensured that the staff understands the C&C regulations. Shirts are always addressed as "Sergeant" or "Chief" now. It's a cool feeling, knowing that I busted a myth.

Don't use "well, encampment is gonna do it" as an excuse not to stray back to the side of regulation.

Skydude61

Always "1st Sergeant" from both experience and regs. except at encampment.... sometimes the 1st sarge from your squadron will wear their diamonds.... confusing as $#!+, cause then they are "chief".... and the encampment first sergeants will get pissed at you if they hear you call your first sarge "first sergeant"...

davidsinn

Quote from: Skydude61 on December 18, 2011, 10:31:57 PM
Always "1st Sergeant" from both experience and regs.

What reg? I've already cited a reg that states the exact opposite of what you claim.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

Skydude61

I don't know, I've been yelled at.... encampment.....he cited a reg. This may not exist... and what reg says otherwise?

davidsinn

Quote from: Skydude61 on December 18, 2011, 11:53:41 PM
I don't know, I've been yelled at.... encampment.....he cited a reg. This may not exist... and what reg says otherwise?

P151. We have also pointed out the absurdity of addressing someone by their title instead of their rank.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

SARDOC

Quote from: davidsinn on December 19, 2011, 12:13:15 AM
P151. We have also pointed out the absurdity of addressing someone by their title instead of their rank.

First, CAPP 151...Not a Reg.

Second, Their are times even in CAPP 151 when certain people are addressed by Title.

HGjunkie

Hold up a second here.

Please don't tell me everyone is arguing over what a Pamphlet says.... (Which pamphlets aren't mentioned in the Bylaws as being regulatory anyways, and are mostly used as guidebooks/ handbooks)

Guys?
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

davidsinn

Quote from: SARDOC on December 19, 2011, 01:03:21 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on December 19, 2011, 12:13:15 AM
P151. We have also pointed out the absurdity of addressing someone by their title instead of their rank.

First, CAPP 151...Not a Reg.

Second, Their are times even in CAPP 151 when certain people are addressed by Title.

Such as?

Quote from: HGjunkie on December 19, 2011, 02:13:21 AM
Hold up a second here.

Please don't tell me everyone is arguing over what a Pamphlet says.... (Which pamphlets aren't mentioned in the Bylaws as being regulatory anyways, and are mostly used as guidebooks/ handbooks)

Guys?

Just because it's a pamphlet does not mean you can ignore it at will. Since it's the only publication that talks about C&C, it stands to reason that P151 is, "the way it is."
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

HGjunkie

Quote from: davidsinn on December 19, 2011, 03:12:56 AM
Just because it's a pamphlet does not mean you can ignore it at will. Since it's the only publication that talks about C&C, it stands to reason that P151 is, "the way it is."

Then wouldn't it stand within reason that slight modification of the material in the manual to fit the situation would be okay?
The pamphlet itself is written in the way (IMO) where it can be added to on a local basis, within reason.


I'm not just talking about the First Sergeant thing, but also points like customs and courtesies for situations that can happen frequently and aren't addressed in the pamphlet. I take it as if it seems reasonable, and your Command approves of it, then it's okay to add things such as area-specific C&C clauses, and to add the infamous "First Sergeant" Clause.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

SARDOC

Quote from: davidsinn on December 19, 2011, 03:12:56 AM
Quote from: SARDOC on December 19, 2011, 01:03:21 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on December 19, 2011, 12:13:15 AM
P151. We have also pointed out the absurdity of addressing someone by their title instead of their rank.

First, CAPP 151...Not a Reg.

Second, Their are times even in CAPP 151 when certain people are addressed by Title.

Such as?

Quote from: HGjunkie on December 19, 2011, 02:13:21 AM
Hold up a second here.

Please don't tell me everyone is arguing over what a Pamphlet says.... (Which pamphlets aren't mentioned in the Bylaws as being regulatory anyways, and are mostly used as guidebooks/ handbooks)

Guys?

Just because it's a pamphlet does not mean you can ignore it at will. Since it's the only publication that talks about C&C, it stands to reason that P151 is, "the way it is."

Such as CAPP 151 P. 15

QuoteSenior members may address cadets by grade or simply by the noble title, "Cadet."

and

QuoteChaplains are commonly referred to by title and last name (ie: Chaplain Baldwin). 

As far as Pamphlets are concerned CAPR 5-4 Specifically defines Pamphlets as

Quotei. "Pamphlets"  are nondirective, informative, "how-to" type publications that may include suggested methods and techniques for implementing CAP policies. 

This is the Suggested way that Customs and Courtesies should be handled within Civil Air Patrol but I wouldn't be heavy handed with it.  Customs and Courtesies are meant to show respect and I don't see it as a breach if someone is addressed by Title.  I guess that comes from my Navy background where is was pretty common.  I also don't see anything that in CAPP 151 that prohibits it...Just that it might, maybe more appropriate to use rank.   There is nothing here to get bent outta shape about.

Spaceman3750

That's it, after hearing all this I demand to be referred to as:

Deputy Commander for Seniors Group Emergency Services Officer Squadron Emergency Services Officer Logistics Officer Professional Development Officer (et. al.) Bagodoughnuts.

And yes, that is a true list of my duty assignments. Including et. al.

SARDOC

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on December 19, 2011, 04:35:29 AM
That's it, after hearing all this I demand to be referred to as:

Deputy Commander for Seniors Group Emergency Services Officer Squadron Emergency Services Officer Logistics Officer Professional Development Officer (et. al.) Bagodoughnuts.

And yes, that is a true list of my duty assignments. Including et. al.


That's it...Where is your Dedication to the organization Mister???

JeffDG

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on December 19, 2011, 04:35:29 AM
That's it, after hearing all this I demand to be referred to as:

Deputy Commander for Seniors Group Emergency Services Officer Squadron Emergency Services Officer Logistics Officer Professional Development Officer (et. al.) Bagodoughnuts.

And yes, that is a true list of my duty assignments. Including et. al.
What, no "Assistant" roles?

JeffDG

Quote from: SARDOC on December 19, 2011, 04:38:22 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on December 19, 2011, 04:35:29 AM
That's it, after hearing all this I demand to be referred to as:

Deputy Commander for Seniors Group Emergency Services Officer Squadron Emergency Services Officer Logistics Officer Professional Development Officer (et. al.) Bagodoughnuts.

And yes, that is a true list of my duty assignments. Including et. al.


That's it...Where is your Dedication to the organization Mister???
[lmgtfy]et. al.[/lmgtfy]

BillB

I'm sorry, I've read 20-1 three times this morning and I can not find a job discription for an et.al. Must be a Wing title.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

Spaceman3750

Quote from: JeffDG on December 19, 2011, 12:52:30 PM
Quote from: SARDOC on December 19, 2011, 04:38:22 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on December 19, 2011, 04:35:29 AM
That's it, after hearing all this I demand to be referred to as:

Deputy Commander for Seniors Group Emergency Services Officer Squadron Emergency Services Officer Logistics Officer Professional Development Officer (et. al.) Bagodoughnuts.

And yes, that is a true list of my duty assignments. Including et. al.


That's it...Where is your Dedication to the organization Mister???
[lmgtfy]et. al.[/lmgtfy]

I must be missing your joke.