COS, RCLS and the Eaker

Started by Cool Mace, December 12, 2010, 09:17:08 PM

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Cool Mace

I've been talking with many cadets and Sr. members about needing RCLS or COS for the Eaker award. Everyone I have talked to doesn't see why you need that to gain rank. The point of RCLS and COS is to make you a better officer, yes? Then why not need that to become 2lt instead? If someone has already been through all the officer ranks up to Major then do you not think they're ready to move up again? I think RCLS and COS are over rated. I think it's something that was a good idea at some point long ago, but it doesn't apply anymore. I think if they want to make one of those schools a requiement, then make it for 2Lt, and not Encampment. Encampment is for basic knowledge, so maybe make it to where you need that for MSgt?(Just a thought on that). Say a cadet can go to one activity a year. Be it Encampment, NBB, HMRS, NESA, or whatever the case may be. Why would they want to join an after school activity to HAVE to go to another school just to promote? I don't think that's fair to cadets. I've heard people talk about the ups and downs of both RCLS and COS. So I have no interest in going to either one of them. I don't want to spend a week "off" doing more school.

Thoughts?

CAP is what you make of it. If you don't put anything in to it, you won't get anything out of it.
Eaker #2250
C/Lt Col, Ret.
The cookies and donuts were a lie.

jimmydeanno

RCLS/COS being a requirement to earn the Eaker doesn't mean that you should take them when you are a C/Maj.  The majority of COS students this year (where I was a seminar advisor), had not earned the Earhart yet.  This year was also the first year they started a "Falcon Flight" which was intended for prior COS graduates and focused on even more strategic thinking, etc.

COS & RCLS are not outdated schools that serve no purpose.  Perhaps the RCLS you went to wasn't good, but the intent is that they provide a school to teach strategic leadership.  Local units and even wings don't have the resources to put together a curriculum or instructors that Cadet Officer School does.  So, if you want to learn about strategic leadership, go to COS.

I can't say that COS has ever had a problem filling their student roster.  If you don't want to go, then don't.  Education is an important aspect of leadership.  If you don't continue to expand your education, chances are, you aren't going to become the leader you could be.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Cool Mace

Sorry, I didn't mean for that to sound like the doesn't have a purpose if that's how it came across. I just don't see why you have to have one of them for your Eaker award. in order to go to COS you already have to be an officer (duh!), but from what friends and people I know that have gone there said they didn't really feel like it was something to brag about when it came to being a better cadet officer (their words not mine).

I think there should be another option out there for cadets like the ECI 13 was. Cadets can take the OBC, and that took the place of the ECI 13. If it fulfills it for SrM. then why not cadets also?

By having to go to a school, cadets can break regs by not being able to promote twice a year. This happened to someone I know. He's still trying to figure out how he can promote ASAP. He has many leadership schools through JROTC and enough encampment staff possitions under his belt. You would think that by having done all of that he would be ok for the Eaker by now?
CAP is what you make of it. If you don't put anything in to it, you won't get anything out of it.
Eaker #2250
C/Lt Col, Ret.
The cookies and donuts were a lie.

DakRadz

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 12, 2010, 09:53:25 PM
By having to go to a school, cadets can break regs by not being able to promote twice a year. This happened to someone I know. He's still trying to figure out how he can promote ASAP. He has many leadership schools through JROTC and enough encampment staff possitions under his belt. You would think that by having done all of that he would be ok for the Eaker by now?
I've never seen a JROTC school that looked as appealing as COS. I want to do COS very much just because of what I've been told about it and the experience it is.

JROTC schools are still mostly Basic/OCS type deals with DIs or DSs- COS, from what I've been told, requires you to manage your time on your own and be responsible for your schedule in an academic and leadership environment.

Ned

As part of our outreach to other "cadet-type" organizations, we actually invited a dozen AFJROTC cadets to participate in COS this year, and by all accounts it was successful.

In return, some CAP cadets were permitted to go to one of the JROTC "Honor Camps."

Our conclusions so far is that JROTC schools are not as academically focussed as COS.

(But then most CAP schools are not as academically focussed as COS, either.)

Also, I just met with the leaders of AFROTC and JROTC at Maxwell last week, and they are concerned because a lot of their summer training activities are being cancelled because of budgeting shortfalls.

So I expect we will be working together more in the future.

ZigZag911

RCLS is about to be opened to C/CMSGTs precisely to address this..to give them officer type training before getting promoted to C/2Lt.

DC

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 12, 2010, 09:17:08 PM
I've been talking with many cadets and Sr. members about needing RCLS or COS for the Eaker award. Everyone I have talked to doesn't see why you need that to gain rank. The point of RCLS and COS is to make you a better officer, yes? Then why not need that to become 2lt instead? If someone has already been through all the officer ranks up to Major then do you not think they're ready to move up again? I think RCLS and COS are over rated. I think it's something that was a good idea at some point long ago, but it doesn't apply anymore. I think if they want to make one of those schools a requiement, then make it for 2Lt, and not Encampment. Encampment is for basic knowledge, so maybe make it to where you need that for MSgt?(Just a thought on that). Say a cadet can go to one activity a year. Be it Encampment, NBB, HMRS, NESA, or whatever the case may be. Why would they want to join an after school activity to HAVE to go to another school just to promote? I don't think that's fair to cadets. I've heard people talk about the ups and downs of both RCLS and COS. So I have no interest in going to either one of them. I don't want to spend a week "off" doing more school.

Thoughts?
You are missing the point of the activity. RCLS and COS do not exist to teach Cadet Officers how to be officers.  Much like Encampment is not intended to be a 'basic training' for new cadets, despite the way it is treated by some. Instead, COS and RCLS serve to polish and build upon existing skills, and teach material that is beyond the scope of what is presented in the leadership texts.

I'd also hazard to guess that your peers that did not feel like COS was worth it missed the point as well, or did not put in the work that they ought to have. Like many things in CAP, you get out of it what you put into it, just showing up and going to the lectures isn't enough.

Cool Mace

Quote from: DC on December 13, 2010, 03:50:26 PM
Quote from: Cool Mace on December 12, 2010, 09:17:08 PM
I've been talking with many cadets and Sr. members about needing RCLS or COS for the Eaker award. Everyone I have talked to doesn't see why you need that to gain rank. The point of RCLS and COS is to make you a better officer, yes? Then why not need that to become 2lt instead? If someone has already been through all the officer ranks up to Major then do you not think they're ready to move up again? I think RCLS and COS are over rated. I think it's something that was a good idea at some point long ago, but it doesn't apply anymore. I think if they want to make one of those schools a requiement, then make it for 2Lt, and not Encampment. Encampment is for basic knowledge, so maybe make it to where you need that for MSgt?(Just a thought on that). Say a cadet can go to one activity a year. Be it Encampment, NBB, HMRS, NESA, or whatever the case may be. Why would they want to join an after school activity to HAVE to go to another school just to promote? I don't think that's fair to cadets. I've heard people talk about the ups and downs of both RCLS and COS. So I have no interest in going to either one of them. I don't want to spend a week "off" doing more school.

Thoughts?
You are missing the point of the activity. RCLS and COS do not exist to teach Cadet Officers how to be officers.  Much like Encampment is not intended to be a 'basic training' for new cadets, despite the way it is treated by some. Instead, COS and RCLS serve to polish and build upon existing skills, and teach material that is beyond the scope of what is presented in the leadership texts.

I'd also hazard to guess that your peers that did not feel like COS was worth it missed the point as well, or did not put in the work that they ought to have. Like many things in CAP, you get out of it what you put into it, just showing up and going to the lectures isn't enough.

Then why have to have it for their Eaker? That's my whole point here.

I'm not saying that they are bad schools our anything like that. I just don't see why they need to be a requirement for it.
CAP is what you make of it. If you don't put anything in to it, you won't get anything out of it.
Eaker #2250
C/Lt Col, Ret.
The cookies and donuts were a lie.

JArvey

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 12, 2010, 09:17:08 PM
I've been talking with many cadets and Sr. members about needing RCLS or COS for the Eaker award. Everyone I have talked to doesn't see why you need that to gain rank. The point of RCLS and COS is to make you a better officer, yes? Then why not need that to become 2lt instead? If someone has already been through all the officer ranks up to Major then do you not think they're ready to move up again? I think RCLS and COS are over rated. I think it's something that was a good idea at some point long ago, but it doesn't apply anymore. I think if they want to make one of those schools a requiement, then make it for 2Lt, and not Encampment. Encampment is for basic knowledge, so maybe make it to where you need that for MSgt?(Just a thought on that). Say a cadet can go to one activity a year. Be it Encampment, NBB, HMRS, NESA, or whatever the case may be. Why would they want to join an after school activity to HAVE to go to another school just to promote? I don't think that's fair to cadets. I've heard people talk about the ups and downs of both RCLS and COS. So I have no interest in going to either one of them. I don't want to spend a week "off" doing more school.

Thoughts?


I couldn't do this because I am only 14 but already a 2d Lt. and to go to COS you must be 16. (and I will not go to RCLS) and also I agree with the encampment rule made but it takes some people time to go to encampment and Msgt is not that high in ranks so they might get stuck at Tsgt until they make time to go to encampment.

Tim Medeiros

Quote from: JArvey on December 14, 2010, 12:34:47 AM
I couldn't do this because I am only 14 but already a 2d Lt. and to go to COS you must be 16. (and I will not go to RCLS) and also I agree with the encampment rule made but it takes some people time to go to encampment and Msgt is not that high in ranks so they might get stuck at Tsgt until they make time to go to encampment.

Just curious, why not?  I'm simply curious as to the reasoning, who knows, your comments may make it to someone who can help make RCLS better, at least in SER.
TIMOTHY R. MEDEIROS, Lt Col, CAP
Chair, National IT Functional User Group
1577/2811

jimmydeanno

Why do we require an essay and speech for the Armstrong?  Encampment to get the Mitchell?  Because they are beneficial to the cadets development.

COS & RCLS are a requirement for the end of Phase IV.  Phase IV is where cadets are supposed to operate at a strategic level.  How can we expect cadets to operate strategically without some sort of training on how to do it?  In comes RCLS & COS, they are schools that teach our "executive" cadets how to think like "executives." 

The OBC doesn't have anything to do with strategic leadership, so why would we want our cadets to take course about the very basics of CAP?  Didn't you learn that stuff before your Wright Brothers Award?
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

REDahms

Quote from: jimmydeanno on December 14, 2010, 03:27:44 AM
The OBC doesn't have anything to do with strategic leadership, so why would we want our cadets to take course about the very basics of CAP?  Didn't you learn that stuff before your Wright Brothers Award?

Very ture and a strange question, what all is in the OBC?
C/Capt. Robert Dahms
MER CAC Rep. NC
NC-023 Cadet EXO

Billy Mitchell       56791
Amelia Earhart  15084

IceNine

"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies"

Book of Bokonon
Chapter 4

Cool Mace

Quote from: jimmydeanno on December 14, 2010, 03:27:44 AM
Why do we require an essay and speech for the Armstrong?  Encampment to get the Mitchell?  Because they are beneficial to the cadets development.

COS & RCLS are a requirement for the end of Phase IV.  Phase IV is where cadets are supposed to operate at a strategic level.  How can we expect cadets to operate strategically without some sort of training on how to do it?  In comes RCLS & COS, they are schools that teach our "executive" cadets how to think like "executives." 

The OBC doesn't have anything to do with strategic leadership, so why would we want our cadets to take course about the very basics of CAP?  Didn't you learn that stuff before your Wright Brothers Award?


But should they not  know that by the time the get to Major? I think by the time they get that high in rank, it's not going to make a big bifference in what they know in leadership. Sure they can always learn more. But why make them go to a school to learn how to be a leader, when they should know that by the time they get to that rank anyway?

I think if they make that a requirement, then it should be to become an officer.
CAP is what you make of it. If you don't put anything in to it, you won't get anything out of it.
Eaker #2250
C/Lt Col, Ret.
The cookies and donuts were a lie.

DakRadz

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 14, 2010, 08:47:08 AM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on December 14, 2010, 03:27:44 AM
Why do we require an essay and speech for the Armstrong?  Encampment to get the Mitchell?  Because they are beneficial to the cadets development.

COS & RCLS are a requirement for the end of Phase IV.  Phase IV is where cadets are supposed to operate at a strategic level.  How can we expect cadets to operate strategically without some sort of training on how to do it?  In comes RCLS & COS, they are schools that teach our "executive" cadets how to think like "executives." 

The OBC doesn't have anything to do with strategic leadership, so why would we want our cadets to take course about the very basics of CAP?  Didn't you learn that stuff before your Wright Brothers Award?


But should they not  know that by the time the get to Major? I think by the time they get that high in rank, it's not going to make a big bifference in what they know in leadership. Sure they can always learn more. But why make them go to a school to learn how to be a leader, when they should know that by the time they get to that rank anyway?

I think if they make that a requirement, then it should be to become an officer.
New Second Lieutenants and Ensigns are expected to be leaders when they are commissioned. But they aren't fed everything at once as far as schools and training.
The Army has the Captain's Career Course, other services have their own advanced trainings- it's progressive. The more experience, age, and wisdom you accumulate, the more training you get to put that to good use.

I don't think anyone is saying that COS/RCLS teaches cadets how to be leaders (though I may be following the thread wrong)- more like it builds on prior leadership skills.

You don't send the manager at JoeBlow's Fish Shack Franchise #3 to Harvard for an MBA; you do send the HQ junior corporate exec who needs a little more knowledge to properly be a great company manager/CEO/etc.

JArvey

Quote from: Tim Medeiros on December 14, 2010, 02:14:45 AM
Quote from: JArvey on December 14, 2010, 12:34:47 AM
I couldn't do this because I am only 14 but already a 2d Lt. and to go to COS you must be 16. (and I will not go to RCLS) and also I agree with the encampment rule made but it takes some people time to go to encampment and Msgt is not that high in ranks so they might get stuck at Tsgt until they make time to go to encampment.

Just curious, why not?  I'm simply curious as to the reasoning, who knows, your comments may make it to someone who can help make RCLS better, at least in SER.

RCLS is usually for cadets who can not make it into COS (especially in SER) and I have to be better than everyone else so my goal is COS. Theres nothing wrong with RCLS I perfer COS though.

DakRadz

Quote from: JArvey on December 14, 2010, 11:57:13 AM
Quote from: Tim Medeiros on December 14, 2010, 02:14:45 AM
Quote from: JArvey on December 14, 2010, 12:34:47 AM
I couldn't do this because I am only 14 but already a 2d Lt. and to go to COS you must be 16. (and I will not go to RCLS) and also I agree with the encampment rule made but it takes some people time to go to encampment and Msgt is not that high in ranks so they might get stuck at Tsgt until they make time to go to encampment.

Just curious, why not?  I'm simply curious as to the reasoning, who knows, your comments may make it to someone who can help make RCLS better, at least in SER.

RCLS is usually for cadets who can not make it into COS (especially in SER) and I have to be better than everyone else so my goal is COS. Theres nothing wrong with RCLS I perfer COS though.
I wanted really badly to go to the Air Force Academy. I also had an AFROTC app just in case. Why? Because back-up plans are key to achieving your goals. (I also had USNA, NROTC, USCGA apps as well... Be Prepared!)

COS is a great goal, but you should also apply for RCLS just in case.

spaatzmom

Quote from: JArvey on December 14, 2010, 11:57:13 AM
Quote from: Tim Medeiros on December 14, 2010, 02:14:45 AM
Quote from: JArvey on December 14, 2010, 12:34:47 AM
I couldn't do this because I am only 14 but already a 2d Lt. and to go to COS you must be 16. (and I will not go to RCLS) and also I agree with the encampment rule made but it takes some people time to go to encampment and Msgt is not that high in ranks so they might get stuck at Tsgt until they make time to go to encampment.

Just curious, why not?  I'm simply curious as to the reasoning, who knows, your comments may make it to someone who can help make RCLS better, at least in SER.

RCLS is usually for cadets who can not make it into COS (especially in SER) and I have to be better than everyone else so my goal is COS. Theres nothing wrong with RCLS I perfer COS though.


Wow!  Let's not denigrate RCLS based on one opinion especially when that person has not attended that particular school.  They are similar programs run by entirely different people.  Even the selection process has absolutely NOTHING to do with the other.  Yes COS is more selective,  but only because of the shear volume of application from the entire country and RCLS is a region program drawing from far fewer candidates, but that is where the process separates.   Why not attend both and be doubly blessed with the knowledge gained from again different programs?  My son attended both and did the ECI-13 and he was better off for it.  They all taught different things in different manners that helped him on his way to the Spaatz and oh yes we are from Florida.....SER

RobertAmphibian

Quote from: JArvey on December 14, 2010, 11:57:13 AM
RCLS is usually for cadets who can not make it into COS (especially in SER) and I have to be better than everyone else so my goal is COS. Theres nothing wrong with RCLS I perfer COS though.

If you really want to be better than everyone else (not really a reasonable goal when it comes to leadership anyway), attend every activity you can! Even if RCLS isn't as prestigious as COS, you'll still learn a lot. Nothing is stopping you from doing both.

PA Guy

Quote from: JArvey on December 14, 2010, 11:57:13 AM
..RCLS is usually for cadets who can not make it into COS (especially in SER) and I have to be better than everyone else so my goal is COS. Theres nothing wrong with RCLS I perfer COS though.

Wow! You need to get out more.

Many of the cadets who attend COS have already attended a RCLS.  RCLS is not some kind of second rate also ran program  for people who "weren't good enough" to make it into COS.  Whoever told you that doesn't get out much either.

What region you belong to has zip, zero, nada to do with getting selected for COS.

So what does this all mean?  Go to COS if you get the chance! Go to RCLS if you get the chance! Go to both if you get the chance!
Don't limit yourself as a result of poor information.

Tim Medeiros

Quote from: JArvey on December 14, 2010, 11:57:13 AM
Quote from: Tim Medeiros on December 14, 2010, 02:14:45 AM
Quote from: JArvey on December 14, 2010, 12:34:47 AM
I couldn't do this because I am only 14 but already a 2d Lt. and to go to COS you must be 16. (and I will not go to RCLS) and also I agree with the encampment rule made but it takes some people time to go to encampment and Msgt is not that high in ranks so they might get stuck at Tsgt until they make time to go to encampment.

Just curious, why not?  I'm simply curious as to the reasoning, who knows, your comments may make it to someone who can help make RCLS better, at least in SER.

RCLS is usually for cadets who can not make it into COS (especially in SER) and I have to be better than everyone else so my goal is COS. Theres nothing wrong with RCLS I perfer COS though.
I'll break down your comments one by one.

QuoteRCLS is usually for cadets who can not make it into COS
In some cases this is true, due to either conflicting schedules or economic issues.  It can also ring true due to the amount of applications received per activity.  COS receives, (guessing here) 400+ applications per year, for a single approximately 100 slot course.  In order to ensure the same leadership material can be received by as many cadets as possible the RCLS program was instituted.  In SER, we have a total of 4583 cadets on the books (as of 2:36pm today), compare that with the (last I checked) 20,000 cadets nationwide and you can easily see the difference in the amount of applications.

QuoteI have to be better than everyone else
An admirable goal, but why?  Why do you "have to be" better than anyone else?  Why not aspire to be the best you can be?  When it comes to leadership, the only reason to compare yourself to others would be to add skills and abilities you admire in other leaders to your own "bag of tools" and ensure that skills and behaviors that are unsatisfactory in others are not repeated by yourself.

I would also like to add, when I was a cadet, I had a goal of going to COS myself.  However, I still went to RCLS.  I went when I was just barely 15, I went to COS several years later when I was 19 or 20.  I even applied for ECI-13 while I was at COS.  The reason?  To get as much leadership training under my belt as I could, and also so I could compare the different courses.  What I found, COS and RCLS had pretty much the same material, the main difference was in the delivery.
TIMOTHY R. MEDEIROS, Lt Col, CAP
Chair, National IT Functional User Group
1577/2811

DC

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 14, 2010, 08:47:08 AM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on December 14, 2010, 03:27:44 AM
Why do we require an essay and speech for the Armstrong?  Encampment to get the Mitchell?  Because they are beneficial to the cadets development.

COS & RCLS are a requirement for the end of Phase IV.  Phase IV is where cadets are supposed to operate at a strategic level.  How can we expect cadets to operate strategically without some sort of training on how to do it?  In comes RCLS & COS, they are schools that teach our "executive" cadets how to think like "executives." 

The OBC doesn't have anything to do with strategic leadership, so why would we want our cadets to take course about the very basics of CAP?  Didn't you learn that stuff before your Wright Brothers Award?


But should they not  know that by the time the get to Major? I think by the time they get that high in rank, it's not going to make a big bifference in what they know in leadership. Sure they can always learn more. But why make them go to a school to learn how to be a leader, when they should know that by the time they get to that rank anyway?

I think if they make that a requirement, then it should be to become an officer.
No, that's the point. My flight at COS had two C/Majors and one C/Lt Col, all of them experienced cadets that had been in CAP for over five years, staffed encampments, been C/CC of their squadrons, served on CACs, the whole bit. Not one of them seemed to think COS was a waste of time or was not teaching them new material.

The COS/RCLS curriculum goes beyond what a cadet that does not attend those schools will be exposed to, and COS in particular delivers it in a way that cannot be duplicated with books and self-study.

So why should it not be a requirement to expose yourself to that material before completion of the Cadet Program (which the Eaker Award symbolizes)?  Requiring COS/RCLS attendance for the Eaker is pushing back the requirement as far as possible, giving cadets the maximum amount of time possible to complete it.

Ron1319

I went to COS in about '96 as a c/LTC and I certainly didn't think it was a waste of time.  I agree with the previous poster that it gives cadets as much time to complete the requirement as possible.  It shows that COS or an officer leadership training is an important part of the cadet program.

I'm disappointed to hear that so many junior officers were in attendance last year.  I would hope that the social aspect of being around senior cadet officers would encourage more of the junior officers to continue to promote and finish the program.  That goal is hard to accomplish if there are few senior cadet officers.

I'd be very interested to hear precisely why the cadets who attended did not feel it was beneficial.  Those of us who went were always proud of having gone, but of course that was something like 14 years ago.
Ronald Thompson, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander, Squadron 85, Placerville, CA
PCR-CA-273
Spaatz #1319

addo1

From my understanding, COS has had its ups and downs throughout the years. I am a rather-recent attendee of Cadet Officer School and can testify to its academic soundness. Is everyone satisfied with the program? No - and never will everyone be satisfied with any activity. Was taking up two of my precious summer weeks to go down to Maxwell worth it? You better believe it! The atmosphere and the course curriculum is unmatched within CAP. Any cadets that want to go, accept it as a challenge, and make the standards. It is not an activity to miss!
Addison Jaynes, SFO, CAP
Coordinator, Texas Wing International Air Cadet Exchange


National Cadet Advisory Council 2010

Nathan

I can tell you a good reason why attending an activity outside of pencil-pushing is a requirement.

Once you start hitting Phase IV, your usefulness outside of the squadron increases dramatically. Phase IV cadets generally are the kinds of people who are selected to be high-level encampment staff, sometimes hold positions as assistance at the Wing level, work on CAC, and have a decent chance of staffing some NCSA's. The skills that a Phase IV cadet are developing go beyond squadron level groups. A Phase IV cadet should have the skills to command hundreds of people at a time.

These environments are found almost exclusively outside of the squadron. If you are a Phase IV cadet doing nothing but attending squadron meetings, then you are not developing the skills appropriate to your grade level. This is not to say that you are required or obligated to find work above the squadron level, or that you are somehow outside of the control of the squadron. But if you aren't willing to travel outside of the squadron as much as you can in order to practice your skills, there isn't much point in promoting above C/Capt. You simply won't be doing anything different as a C/Capt than you would as a C/Col if you never leave the squadron.

We can debate the individual merits of COS and RCLS all day, but the point I'm trying to drive in is that the excuse "I don't wanna go" does not represent the mindset that a Phase IV cadet needs in order to succeed. Even if COS was not required, you should still be LOOKING for the opportunity to leave your squadron and explore chances to practice leadership at higher levels.

When I attended COS in 2005, I developed connections literally around the entire country with people who would eventually go on and do some pretty impressive things in the cadet program. Not only was I able to develop leadership skills at the school, but I was able to keep in contact with the people I met and work with them to do other projects within CAP. In addition, when people know that you've stepped outside of the squadron to pursue extra training, it certain speaks to your adaptability, which is an important trait for any leader.
Nathan Scalia

The post beneath this one is a lie.

Cool Mace

Quote from: Nathan on December 16, 2010, 06:55:25 PM
I can tell you a good reason why attending an activity outside of pencil-pushing is a requirement.

Once you start hitting Phase IV, your usefulness outside of the squadron increases dramatically. Phase IV cadets generally are the kinds of people who are selected to be high-level encampment staff, sometimes hold positions as assistance at the Wing level, work on CAC, and have a decent chance of staffing some NCSA's. The skills that a Phase IV cadet are developing go beyond squadron level groups. A Phase IV cadet should have the skills to command hundreds of people at a time.

These environments are found almost exclusively outside of the squadron. If you are a Phase IV cadet doing nothing but attending squadron meetings, then you are not developing the skills appropriate to your grade level. This is not to say that you are required or obligated to find work above the squadron level, or that you are somehow outside of the control of the squadron. But if you aren't willing to travel outside of the squadron as much as you can in order to practice your skills, there isn't much point in promoting above C/Capt. You simply won't be doing anything different as a C/Capt than you would as a C/Col if you never leave the squadron.

We can debate the individual merits of COS and RCLS all day, but the point I'm trying to drive in is that the excuse "I don't wanna go" does not represent the mindset that a Phase IV cadet needs in order to succeed. Even if COS was not required, you should still be LOOKING for the opportunity to leave your squadron and explore chances to practice leadership at higher levels.

When I attended COS in 2005, I developed connections literally around the entire country with people who would eventually go on and do some pretty impressive things in the cadet program. Not only was I able to develop leadership skills at the school, but I was able to keep in contact with the people I met and work with them to do other projects within CAP. In addition, when people know that you've stepped outside of the squadron to pursue extra training, it certain speaks to your adaptability, which is an important trait for any leader.

I'm not saying COS or RCLS are bad schools. I agree that phase IV cadets should be able to learn more and be able to teach what they have learned. But once you're that high in CAP (C/Maj) does having to go to the school worth it for the next grade? again I'm not saying the schools are worthless by any means. Cadets can already hold staff possitions at NCSA and high possitions at Encampments, along with being on NCAC (I was) without having to go to either of them.

Cadets can already meet people outside thier squadron without either of the schools, and learn from them aswell. I have many friends from around the country and the world without going to them. We all have a common goal. To make ourselves, and the people we teach better people.

I'm still lost as to it being a requirement for C/Lt Col. If you're already that high in tha ranks, then those why need a school to make you a better officer?

I also think they need to come out with something for cadets that aren't able to attend them. We used to have the ECI 13, but not we don't have anything like it. Why not make another test that can fulfill the same requirements like it did? Not to say you learn the same things from the ECI 13 as you would at COS or RCLS. But now we just took away an option for cadets to promote. I think CAP should come up with something for these cadets.
CAP is what you make of it. If you don't put anything in to it, you won't get anything out of it.
Eaker #2250
C/Lt Col, Ret.
The cookies and donuts were a lie.

DakRadz

1) Cadets are eligible for COS (and usually by extension RCLS) as long as they have the Mitchell and are 16.

2) No, we don't have a paper course which is available for the Eaker requirement, but I was actually thinking about this and I think it's a good thing.
While some used ECI13 as a supplement (and given the course it seems it would have been a good supplement, I barely missed the requirements and deadline) to the training they receive, others papered their way through the entire program.
Maybe some who did this were genuine leaders who fell on ECI13 as the back-up because things just didn't work out and they were still great cadets. I can accept that there are exceptions.
I can't help thinking there was a method to NHQ's madness when they took away the cadet paper promotion course.

jimmydeanno

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 16, 2010, 11:23:51 PM
Quote from: Nathan on December 16, 2010, 06:55:25 PM
I can tell you a good reason why attending an activity outside of pencil-pushing is a requirement.

Once you start hitting Phase IV, your usefulness outside of the squadron increases dramatically. Phase IV cadets generally are the kinds of people who are selected to be high-level encampment staff, sometimes hold positions as assistance at the Wing level, work on CAC, and have a decent chance of staffing some NCSA's. The skills that a Phase IV cadet are developing go beyond squadron level groups. A Phase IV cadet should have the skills to command hundreds of people at a time.

These environments are found almost exclusively outside of the squadron. If you are a Phase IV cadet doing nothing but attending squadron meetings, then you are not developing the skills appropriate to your grade level. This is not to say that you are required or obligated to find work above the squadron level, or that you are somehow outside of the control of the squadron. But if you aren't willing to travel outside of the squadron as much as you can in order to practice your skills, there isn't much point in promoting above C/Capt. You simply won't be doing anything different as a C/Capt than you would as a C/Col if you never leave the squadron.

We can debate the individual merits of COS and RCLS all day, but the point I'm trying to drive in is that the excuse "I don't wanna go" does not represent the mindset that a Phase IV cadet needs in order to succeed. Even if COS was not required, you should still be LOOKING for the opportunity to leave your squadron and explore chances to practice leadership at higher levels.

When I attended COS in 2005, I developed connections literally around the entire country with people who would eventually go on and do some pretty impressive things in the cadet program. Not only was I able to develop leadership skills at the school, but I was able to keep in contact with the people I met and work with them to do other projects within CAP. In addition, when people know that you've stepped outside of the squadron to pursue extra training, it certain speaks to your adaptability, which is an important trait for any leader.

I'm not saying COS or RCLS are bad schools. I agree that phase IV cadets should be able to learn more and be able to teach what they have learned. But once you're that high in CAP (C/Maj) does having to go to the school worth it for the next grade? again I'm not saying the schools are worthless by any means. Cadets can already hold staff possitions at NCSA and high possitions at Encampments, along with being on NCAC (I was) without having to go to either of them.

Cadets can already meet people outside thier squadron without either of the schools, and learn from them aswell. I have many friends from around the country and the world without going to them. We all have a common goal. To make ourselves, and the people we teach better people.

I'm still lost as to it being a requirement for C/Lt Col. If you're already that high in tha ranks, then those why need a school to make you a better officer?

I also think they need to come out with something for cadets that aren't able to attend them. We used to have the ECI 13, but not we don't have anything like it. Why not make another test that can fulfill the same requirements like it did? Not to say you learn the same things from the ECI 13 as you would at COS or RCLS. But now we just took away an option for cadets to promote. I think CAP should come up with something for these cadets.

About 2% of cadets earn the Eaker.

When the ECI-13 was available, there was about 6 cadets per year that took it.  For a total of around 30-40 total during its availability (about 5-7 years) to cadets.

So you want to create a program to service ~8% of the 2% of cadets who get that far?  Why devote the time, effort and resources for a segment of our cadet population that is practically non-existent?

If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Cool Mace

Quote from: jimmydeanno on December 16, 2010, 11:37:41 PM
Quote from: Cool Mace on December 16, 2010, 11:23:51 PM
Quote from: Nathan on December 16, 2010, 06:55:25 PM
I can tell you a good reason why attending an activity outside of pencil-pushing is a requirement.

Once you start hitting Phase IV, your usefulness outside of the squadron increases dramatically. Phase IV cadets generally are the kinds of people who are selected to be high-level encampment staff, sometimes hold positions as assistance at the Wing level, work on CAC, and have a decent chance of staffing some NCSA's. The skills that a Phase IV cadet are developing go beyond squadron level groups. A Phase IV cadet should have the skills to command hundreds of people at a time.

These environments are found almost exclusively outside of the squadron. If you are a Phase IV cadet doing nothing but attending squadron meetings, then you are not developing the skills appropriate to your grade level. This is not to say that you are required or obligated to find work above the squadron level, or that you are somehow outside of the control of the squadron. But if you aren't willing to travel outside of the squadron as much as you can in order to practice your skills, there isn't much point in promoting above C/Capt. You simply won't be doing anything different as a C/Capt than you would as a C/Col if you never leave the squadron.

We can debate the individual merits of COS and RCLS all day, but the point I'm trying to drive in is that the excuse "I don't wanna go" does not represent the mindset that a Phase IV cadet needs in order to succeed. Even if COS was not required, you should still be LOOKING for the opportunity to leave your squadron and explore chances to practice leadership at higher levels.

When I attended COS in 2005, I developed connections literally around the entire country with people who would eventually go on and do some pretty impressive things in the cadet program. Not only was I able to develop leadership skills at the school, but I was able to keep in contact with the people I met and work with them to do other projects within CAP. In addition, when people know that you've stepped outside of the squadron to pursue extra training, it certain speaks to your adaptability, which is an important trait for any leader.

I'm not saying COS or RCLS are bad schools. I agree that phase IV cadets should be able to learn more and be able to teach what they have learned. But once you're that high in CAP (C/Maj) does having to go to the school worth it for the next grade? again I'm not saying the schools are worthless by any means. Cadets can already hold staff possitions at NCSA and high possitions at Encampments, along with being on NCAC (I was) without having to go to either of them.

Cadets can already meet people outside thier squadron without either of the schools, and learn from them aswell. I have many friends from around the country and the world without going to them. We all have a common goal. To make ourselves, and the people we teach better people.

I'm still lost as to it being a requirement for C/Lt Col. If you're already that high in tha ranks, then those why need a school to make you a better officer?

I also think they need to come out with something for cadets that aren't able to attend them. We used to have the ECI 13, but not we don't have anything like it. Why not make another test that can fulfill the same requirements like it did? Not to say you learn the same things from the ECI 13 as you would at COS or RCLS. But now we just took away an option for cadets to promote. I think CAP should come up with something for these cadets.

About 2% of cadets earn the Eaker.

When the ECI-13 was available, there was about 6 cadets per year that took it.  For a total of around 30-40 total during its availability (about 5-7 years) to cadets.

So you want to create a program to service ~8% of the 2% of cadets who get that far?  Why devote the time, effort and resources for a segment of our cadet population that is practically non-existent?

Because offering something once a year isn't worth it to some, hence why they took the test. If I just got Major and I had to wait a year to go to an activity to promote, I wouldn't be too happy about it. I know a lot of cadets that are coming up in rank aren't happy about it either. What's wrong with giving them a third choice?
CAP is what you make of it. If you don't put anything in to it, you won't get anything out of it.
Eaker #2250
C/Lt Col, Ret.
The cookies and donuts were a lie.

Tim Medeiros

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 16, 2010, 11:40:23 PMIf I just got Major and I had to wait a year to go to an activity to promote, I wouldn't be too happy about it.
Why wait until you get Major to go to these schools?  Why not be proactive and go when its available to you and you can apply the lessons learned even longer?  ie Mitchell, or earlier in some places.
TIMOTHY R. MEDEIROS, Lt Col, CAP
Chair, National IT Functional User Group
1577/2811

DakRadz

Cadet Major still has levels enough to require 6 more months until the Eaker. So it wouldn't throw the timeframe off that much.

Anyone who wants to hit the Eaker/Spaatz before 21 and is worried about this due to their age needs to be prior planning anyway.

DC

Quote from: Tim Medeiros on December 17, 2010, 12:19:18 AM
Quote from: Cool Mace on December 16, 2010, 11:40:23 PMIf I just got Major and I had to wait a year to go to an activity to promote, I wouldn't be too happy about it.
Why wait until you get Major to go to these schools?  Why not be proactive and go when its available to you and you can apply the lessons learned even longer?  ie Mitchell, or earlier in some places.
+10

I went as a C/1st Lt, and I'd wager that the majority of my peers were also Phase III cadets. Those cadets can now employ what they learned at a much earlier stage in their cadet career than if they had waited until that had to go to satisfy a promotion requirement. And again, the COS curriculum does not teach material that you are likely to come across or learn through experience as a cadet. So saying that a C/Maj is already a good leader and doesn't need more training to become a C/Lt Col doesn't fly.



Cool Mace

Quote from: DC on December 17, 2010, 03:14:17 AM
Quote from: Tim Medeiros on December 17, 2010, 12:19:18 AM
Quote from: Cool Mace on December 16, 2010, 11:40:23 PMIf I just got Major and I had to wait a year to go to an activity to promote, I wouldn't be too happy about it.
Why wait until you get Major to go to these schools?  Why not be proactive and go when its available to you and you can apply the lessons learned even longer?  ie Mitchell, or earlier in some places.

And again, the COS curriculum does not teach material that you are likely to come across or learn through experience as a cadet.


Case and point...

If cadets aren't likely to come across that kind of leadership through out the cadet program already, then why is it a requirement to go to the school to promote?

All I've seen so far are white-wash answers from people saying "that's how it's always been" kind of thing.

Sure, cadets can go to the school before Major, but what about cadets that go even once they get to Captain? Should they not already know how to be great leaders by then? If not, then they shouldn't have been promoted in the first place...
CAP is what you make of it. If you don't put anything in to it, you won't get anything out of it.
Eaker #2250
C/Lt Col, Ret.
The cookies and donuts were a lie.

DakRadz

And yet- Generals and SNCOs have school requirements too.

Because an E-8 is always a horrible leader until he goes to those schools.

Cool Mace

Quote from: DakRadz on December 17, 2010, 06:34:46 AM
And yet- Generals and SNCOs have school requirements too.

Because an E-8 is always a horrible leader until he goes to those schools.

If that E-8 is such a horrible leader, then why is he an E-8?
CAP is what you make of it. If you don't put anything in to it, you won't get anything out of it.
Eaker #2250
C/Lt Col, Ret.
The cookies and donuts were a lie.

Ron1319

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 16, 2010, 11:23:51 PM
again I'm not saying the schools are worthless by any means.

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 12, 2010, 09:17:08 PMOriginal post - I think RCLS and COS are over rated. I think it's something that was a good idea at some point long ago, but it doesn't apply anymore.

Careful with the doublespeak.
Ronald Thompson, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander, Squadron 85, Placerville, CA
PCR-CA-273
Spaatz #1319

Cool Mace

Quote from: Ron1319 on December 17, 2010, 06:50:53 AM
Quote from: Cool Mace on December 16, 2010, 11:23:51 PM
again I'm not saying the schools are worthless by any means.

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 12, 2010, 09:17:08 PMOriginal post - I think RCLS and COS are over rated. I think it's something that was a good idea at some point long ago, but it doesn't apply anymore.

Careful with the doublespeak.

I didn't mean it like that... I meant it as far as promotions go. Sorry for the lack of translation there.
CAP is what you make of it. If you don't put anything in to it, you won't get anything out of it.
Eaker #2250
C/Lt Col, Ret.
The cookies and donuts were a lie.

IceNine

I think you are marginalizing the importance of reinforcement and expansion of skills.  It's much more difficult to learn the intricacies of a skill when you can't relate.  Making a few mistakes and wanting to do it better will help you remember and apply you're new skills.

I would suggest that maybe C/Capt would be more appropriate, but then I believe Wright Bros. is more appropriate for basic encampment.

"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies"

Book of Bokonon
Chapter 4

DakRadz

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 17, 2010, 06:43:55 AM
Quote from: DakRadz on December 17, 2010, 06:34:46 AM
And yet- Generals and SNCOs have school requirements too.

Because an E-8 is always a horrible leader until he goes to those schools.

If that E-8 is such a horrible leader, then why is he an E-8?
Okay, that was sarcasm, which I shouldn't do but sometimes it overcomes me. I was saying that every E-8 in every service is a horrible leader until they go to SNCO schools, so I thought it would clear I wasn't serious- but it's late and I'm tired. (Due to the lack of sleep, I said E-8- however, SNCO Academy/equivalent must be completed to be an E-8, so the above statements should read E-7. Just sayin'. My mistake.)

I'm saying that at all levels, even in the Armed Forces, high-level leaders go to trainings.
The President- I'm willing to bet that even someone like Ford, who was Congress to VP to POTUS, still went through a lot of conditioning, teaching, and training from the BTDT staff on how to be the Top Dog, even though he'd been in lots of positions close to the other Top Dogs and watched them and learned.

Ron1319

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 17, 2010, 06:53:27 AM

I didn't mean it like that... I meant it as far as promotions go. Sorry for the lack of translation there.

Just note that I'm sure I wasn't the only one who interpreted the original post as intending to say that COS was overrated and no longer a good idea.
Ronald Thompson, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander, Squadron 85, Placerville, CA
PCR-CA-273
Spaatz #1319

JArvey

Because an E-8 is always a horrible leader until he goes to those schools.
[/quote]

How is an E-8 a horrible leader? One of the best leaders I know is an E-8.

Tim Medeiros

JArvey, please re-tune your sarcasm meter, it's faulty, Dak said this earlier.

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 17, 2010, 06:32:53 AMIf cadets aren't likely to come across that kind of leadership through out the cadet program already, then why is it a requirement to go to the school to promote?
So they can be exposed to it and then be able to apply it out in the "real world" environment

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 17, 2010, 06:32:53 AM
Sure, cadets can go to the school before Major, but what about cadets that go even once they get to Captain? Should they not already know how to be great leaders by then? If not, then they shouldn't have been promoted in the first place...
Depends on your definition of a great leader.  I tend to promote based on core competencies, like the ones listed in CAPR 52-16 page 29, except they call them Leadership Expectations.


I also expect a "great" leader to try and develop their skills and knowledge at every possible venue, to include attending COS/RCLS among other activities.
TIMOTHY R. MEDEIROS, Lt Col, CAP
Chair, National IT Functional User Group
1577/2811

jimmydeanno

From your cadet oath:

Quote
continue my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation.

Regardless of whether or not you experience the exact situations taught at a school, the purpose of the cadet program isn't to teach you how to be a good cadet.  It is to prepare you to be a good leader once you aren't a cadet anymore.

And as for the "white-wash answers" I think you should re-read through the thread and check, because there are some very concrete reasons why these schools exist.  You aren't getting the "because that's the way it's always been" answers, because it isn't the way it's always been.  COS is really only about 10 years old, in it's current incarnation, and RCLS is less than 10 years old.  As a requirement for the Eaker, it's even less, because the Eaker is a fairly new award.

Either way, I really don't think that you are going to change your mind, regardless of what we tell you, because you are allowing your youthful ignorance to get in the way.  I would think that a thread full of responses from people who have graduated from COS, teach at COS, have earned the Eaker Award, etc would have been able to at least give you some perspective as to the importance of continuing your leadership education, but it appears that you are just more concerned about proving how un-needed it is.

Eaker #1024
COS Class of 1999
COS Seminar Advisor 2010
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Cool Mace

I never said it was "un-needed". I'm sure the schools are great! I've never been to them, and this will be my last summer as a cadet, so I don't plan on going to them either way.

Even if "it's only10 years old" that has nothing to do with it. Something can be outdated within 5 years.
I'm not saying the schools themsleves are out dated, but the requirement for the Eaker is.

as far as my "youthful ingorance", I've talked with many Sr. about this, and ones that have looked at this topic. They still agree with me. I guess those 45+ year old people need to grow up as well?

Contunuiting leadership is always the best practice. But I still believe that it as a requirement is wrong. Or we need at least a few more options instead of just two schools...
CAP is what you make of it. If you don't put anything in to it, you won't get anything out of it.
Eaker #2250
C/Lt Col, Ret.
The cookies and donuts were a lie.

Tim Medeiros

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 18, 2010, 12:23:29 AM
Or we need at least a few more options instead of just two schools...
Have any suggestions?
TIMOTHY R. MEDEIROS, Lt Col, CAP
Chair, National IT Functional User Group
1577/2811

Ron1319

Perhaps executive staff at an encampment with some requirements for participation in planning, mentoring and providing leadership at the encampment, signed off by the encampment commander that the requirements have been met?  I can't think of another comparable experience that I had as a cadet.  Perhaps CAC officer for a year with certain stipulations about what activities needed to take place for the CAC showing that it was effective and that the cadet was truly active in CAC and contributing consistently.

It's kind of geeky-cool that I'm Eaker number 127.  The timing just worked out that it was added as an award just as I finished the program.
Ronald Thompson, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander, Squadron 85, Placerville, CA
PCR-CA-273
Spaatz #1319

Cool Mace

Quote from: Ron1319 on December 18, 2010, 12:56:38 AM
Perhaps executive staff at an encampment with some requirements for participation in planning, mentoring and providing leadership at the encampment, signed off by the encampment commander that the requirements have been met?  I can't think of another comparable experience that I had as a cadet.  Perhaps CAC officer for a year with certain stipulations about what activities needed to take place for the CAC showing that it was effective and that the cadet was truly active in CAC and contributing consistently.

It's kind of geeky-cool that I'm Eaker number 127.  The timing just worked out that it was added as an award just as I finished the program.

I was thinking along the same lines. Say up staff at encampments. C/CDC C/CC C/XO or other high ranking positions to be signed off by the encampment CC.

CAC Chairman or Vice. But have to achive something through that year. Signed off by the DCP.

Another test? It should cover both Sr and cdet jobs and what is expected out of each. Of course that's just a rough idea...
CAP is what you make of it. If you don't put anything in to it, you won't get anything out of it.
Eaker #2250
C/Lt Col, Ret.
The cookies and donuts were a lie.

DakRadz

How about C/CC of an RCLS?

Oh, wait... ;)

HGjunkie

••• retired
2d Lt USAF

DC

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 18, 2010, 01:29:56 AM
Quote from: Ron1319 on December 18, 2010, 12:56:38 AM
Perhaps executive staff at an encampment with some requirements for participation in planning, mentoring and providing leadership at the encampment, signed off by the encampment commander that the requirements have been met?  I can't think of another comparable experience that I had as a cadet.  Perhaps CAC officer for a year with certain stipulations about what activities needed to take place for the CAC showing that it was effective and that the cadet was truly active in CAC and contributing consistently.

It's kind of geeky-cool that I'm Eaker number 127.  The timing just worked out that it was added as an award just as I finished the program.

I was thinking along the same lines. Say up staff at encampments. C/CDC C/CC C/XO or other high ranking positions to be signed off by the encampment CC.

CAC Chairman or Vice. But have to achive something through that year. Signed off by the DCP.

Another test? It should cover both Sr and cdet jobs and what is expected out of each. Of course that's just a rough idea...
A cadet would be that much more suited to an exec position at encampment after having graduated from a leadership school, wouldn't you think? Especially one that placed emphasis on thinking and planning strategically, problem solving, leadership theory and team dynamics?

Like, say, COS?

You obviously have your mind rather firmly made up, but in my time as a CAP member, all of the really great cadet leaders I have known were COS grads, and many of them had gone to or staffed an RCLS as well. Those schools serve a very important purpose in the later part of the CP leadership curriculum. Staffing an encampment won't replace them.

Cool Mace

CAP is what you make of it. If you don't put anything in to it, you won't get anything out of it.
Eaker #2250
C/Lt Col, Ret.
The cookies and donuts were a lie.

noodles

So...should RCLS students be treated like cadets at an encampment or like officers at any other activity?  Whats the consensus out there?   

JArvey

Quote from: noodles on December 19, 2010, 02:32:30 PM
So...should RCLS students be treated like cadets at an encampment or like officers at any other activity?  Whats the consensus out there?   

Neither it should be a relaxed environment in my opinion. I have heard of many Cadet Colonels enlisting and failing miserably because there not used to being yelled at or doing so much drill and PT.

DC

Quote from: noodles on December 19, 2010, 02:32:30 PM
So...should RCLS students be treated like cadets at an encampment or like officers at any other activity?  Whats the consensus out there?   
RCLS and COS are academic learning environments. They have a very different purpose from encampment and should not be treated as such. The relaxed environment requires cadets attending to be mature, responsible and to manage their own time; probably one of the reasons there is an age limit applied to COS and many RCLSs.

A C/Col failing basic training did not fail because he was not used to getting yelled at, drilling or doing PT. The thousands of plain ol', non-CAP trained civilians that enlist every year have even less practice at that stuff than the CAP cadet, but they still manage just fine.

DakRadz

Quote from: JArvey on December 19, 2010, 03:17:02 PM
Quote from: noodles on December 19, 2010, 02:32:30 PM
So...should RCLS students be treated like cadets at an encampment or like officers at any other activity?  Whats the consensus out there?   

Neither it should be a relaxed environment in my opinion. I have heard of many Cadet Colonels enlisting and failing miserably because there not used to being yelled at or doing so much drill and PT.
Really, now? Do you have any evidence?

I have a hard time believing that MANY of them have done this. And I've seen no proof.

Also, see the last two sentences of DC's post.

Ron1319

Interesting old wives tale.

I know several Spaatzen who did extremely well at academies and I don't recall ever meeting one who enlisted, much less dropped out of basic.

On the other hand if I had shown up at an RCLS and had some kid or overzealous senior yelling at me for no reason I would have said goodbye, walked to my car, driven home and called the wing commander more than likely.
Ronald Thompson, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander, Squadron 85, Placerville, CA
PCR-CA-273
Spaatz #1319

Tim Medeiros

Quote from: Ron1319 on December 19, 2010, 06:00:36 PM
I know several Spaatzen who did extremely well at academies and I don't recall ever meeting one who enlisted, much less dropped out of basic.
Despite not meeting in person, you can add one to your list of those you have "met" that are enlisting.

I'd be glad to report my progress on refuting that old wives tale come 1 Feb - 3 Apr (approximately).
TIMOTHY R. MEDEIROS, Lt Col, CAP
Chair, National IT Functional User Group
1577/2811

Ron1319

I expect you'll make it thru basic training.   :P
Ronald Thompson, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander, Squadron 85, Placerville, CA
PCR-CA-273
Spaatz #1319

PA Guy

Quote from: noodles on December 19, 2010, 02:32:30 PM
So...should RCLS students be treated like cadets at an encampment or like officers at any other activity?  Whats the consensus out there?   

No,  it is like comparing apples and oranges.  Two completely different activities with very different goals and expectations.

JArvey

Quote from: DakRadz on December 19, 2010, 04:28:37 PM
Quote from: JArvey on December 19, 2010, 03:17:02 PM
Quote from: noodles on December 19, 2010, 02:32:30 PM
So...should RCLS students be treated like cadets at an encampment or like officers at any other activity?  Whats the consensus out there?   

Neither it should be a relaxed environment in my opinion. I have heard of many Cadet Colonels enlisting and failing miserably because there not used to being yelled at or doing so much drill and PT.
Really, now? Do you have any evidence?

I have a hard time believing that MANY of them have done this. And I've seen no proof.

Also, see the last two sentences of DC's post.

Evidence? No, he told me himself

DC

Quote from: JArvey on January 01, 2011, 07:44:02 PM
Quote from: DakRadz on December 19, 2010, 04:28:37 PM
Quote from: JArvey on December 19, 2010, 03:17:02 PM
Quote from: noodles on December 19, 2010, 02:32:30 PM
So...should RCLS students be treated like cadets at an encampment or like officers at any other activity?  Whats the consensus out there?   

Neither it should be a relaxed environment in my opinion. I have heard of many Cadet Colonels enlisting and failing miserably because there not used to being yelled at or doing so much drill and PT.
Really, now? Do you have any evidence?

I have a hard time believing that MANY of them have done this. And I've seen no proof.

Also, see the last two sentences of DC's post.

Evidence? No, he told me himself
I won't jump to conclusions, not knowing this person myself, but I highly doubt the relaxed atmosphere at COS and the general lack of yelling directed toward senior cadet officers was the reason he was not successful. Again, if the average 18 year old Joe Civilian is capable of making through BMT, why would a Spaatz cadet be at a disadvantage?

Tim Medeiros

Quote from: JArvey on January 01, 2011, 07:44:02 PM
Quote from: DakRadz on December 19, 2010, 04:28:37 PM
Quote from: JArvey on December 19, 2010, 03:17:02 PM
Quote from: noodles on December 19, 2010, 02:32:30 PM
So...should RCLS students be treated like cadets at an encampment or like officers at any other activity?  Whats the consensus out there?   

Neither it should be a relaxed environment in my opinion. I have heard of many Cadet Colonels enlisting and failing miserably because there not used to being yelled at or doing so much drill and PT.
Really, now? Do you have any evidence?

I have a hard time believing that MANY of them have done this. And I've seen no proof.

Also, see the last two sentences of DC's post.

Evidence? No, he told me himself
Many = plural
He = singular

Soooo, you made a broad based statement based on one persons experience?  Nicely done.

Based one whats been said, I'm thinking there is something more to the reason why said C/Col left BMT.
TIMOTHY R. MEDEIROS, Lt Col, CAP
Chair, National IT Functional User Group
1577/2811

JArvey

Quote from: Tim Medeiros on January 02, 2011, 08:06:54 PM
Quote from: JArvey on January 01, 2011, 07:44:02 PM
Quote from: DakRadz on December 19, 2010, 04:28:37 PM
Quote from: JArvey on December 19, 2010, 03:17:02 PM
Quote from: noodles on December 19, 2010, 02:32:30 PM
So...should RCLS students be treated like cadets at an encampment or like officers at any other activity?  Whats the consensus out there?   

Neither it should be a relaxed environment in my opinion. I have heard of many Cadet Colonels enlisting and failing miserably because there not used to being yelled at or doing so much drill and PT.
Really, now? Do you have any evidence?

I have a hard time believing that MANY of them have done this. And I've seen no proof.

Also, see the last two sentences of DC's post.

Evidence? No, he told me himself
Many = plural
He = singular

Soooo, you made a broad based statement based on one persons experience?  Nicely done.

Based one whats been said, I'm thinking there is something more to the reason why said C/Col left BMT.

he told me that he knew another and there may have been a reason I dint ask

spaatzmom

Quote from: JArvey on January 04, 2011, 03:22:44 AM
Quote from: Tim Medeiros on January 02, 2011, 08:06:54 PM
Quote from: JArvey on January 01, 2011, 07:44:02 PM
Quote from: DakRadz on December 19, 2010, 04:28:37 PM
Quote from: JArvey on December 19, 2010, 03:17:02 PM
Quote from: noodles on December 19, 2010, 02:32:30 PM
So...should RCLS students be treated like cadets at an encampment or like officers at any other activity?  Whats the consensus out there?   

Neither it should be a relaxed environment in my opinion. I have heard of many Cadet Colonels enlisting and failing miserably because there not used to being yelled at or doing so much drill and PT.
Really, now? Do you have any evidence?

I have a hard time believing that MANY of them have done this. And I've seen no proof.

Also, see the last two sentences of DC's post.

Evidence? No, he told me himself
Many = plural
He = singular

Soooo, you made a broad based statement based on one persons experience?  Nicely done.

Based one whats been said, I'm thinking there is something more to the reason why said C/Col left BMT.

he told me that he knew another and there may have been a reason I dint ask

So, all you have is hearsay or rumor, which means absolutely nothing and has no credibility anywhere.  There are many former Spaatzen on this board who have successfully navigated the "torturous" weeks of BMT, along with those who went without even knowing what the Spaatz award is let alone CAP.

Eclipse

One could, I suppose, make the argument that RCLS, COS, or whatever didn't help a cadet in BMT, but a single supposedly lax activity is certainly not going to cause a C/Col. to struggle there.

That makes no logical sense.

"That Others May Zoom"

JArvey

WTF, im not going to just lie. I'm telling you what he told me. Is there really a point of you guys just sitting on your computers accusing everyone of something else every 15 minutes? Don't you have something better to do than call someone probably 30 years younger than you a lier? Every other post I see has arguments on it. And yes I was being sarcastic if you felt you needed to argue that not *every other* post has arguments.