Cadets entering AF BMT

[caphornbuckle]

It's been a while since I went in the Air Force and through Basic Military Training.  I am curious to know how well CAP has prepared cadets recently.  During my stay at Lackland in 1995, I felt like CAP prepared me fairly well, although this was also the time when there were changes to the NCO grades and the Velcro Namebadge was in debate (I also learned that Element Leaders march in the front of the formation, something I rarely see done in CAP).

I also recall us having to do aircraft identification during our final exam.  Does the current Aerospace Education program have this in the books still?

[jimmydeanno]

I can't help but feel, from reading your post, that it seems like you think the cadet program's purpose is to prepare cadets for AF BMT. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

the purpose of Cadet Programs isn't to prepare cadets to join the military. Although if conducted in a certain way it would. The purpose of the cadet program is to provide the cadets with independence, knowledge, leadership skills, and a drug and alcohol influenced free environment to learn it all and learn even more.

It is in a military structure however, that being said, it does help prepare cadets to join the military. If it didn't then the military wouldn't give promotions based on it. The cadet program definitely helped prepare me for the military. It instilled in me a sense of independence, reliance on my teammates and military customs and courtesies. Granted Encampment did not prepare me at all for Infantry school. Encampment was too simple and too relaxed. I got all of my good solid training from my unit.

[NCRblues]

When i went through basic at lackland, you wanted to keep your CAP service hidden. The TI's were always on the prowl for and i quote my instructor from memory, "those wanna be @&^%$#@% who think they know everything already". Once they knew you had served in CAP they would make an example out of you, you were out of step? it was CAPs fault because we didn't know how to march, your bed wasn't perfect? once again CAPs fault because its "pretending to play military".

The vast majority of things i learned in cap went out the door the second the buss pulled up to lackland AFB. We are a great tool for young adults to learn a little bit of respect and discipline and to sort of teach attention to detail by uniforms and encampments ext. but prepair you for basic? Nope, no way....

Those of us that were cap cadets tried to keep it hidden (at least during basic). Cap more helped me at my tech schools than anything else. In the AF, during tech schools, one (or more depending on the amount of people doing the school at the time) would be chosen to become student leaders, called ropes. Having been a cadet officer and commanded encampments and dealt with the the infighting amongst the troops and the homesickness, it was a pretty easy transition from "cadet commander" to "airman in charge". Cap helped a lot on the basic leadership foundations.

[Hawk200]

If it didn't then the military wouldn't give promotions based on it.

Don't know about the other branches, but I do know that the AF gives stripes for college credit. It wouldn't be the only way to get advanced enlisted rank.

I think it's a case of an individual having some type of background showing a development of self discipline. It may not be that in so many words, but I think that's the principle behind it.

[capchiro]

Our last cadet to go through Basic was a C/2Lt. prior to enlisting.  Her CAP training led her to sneak cookies out of the mess hall and back to the barracks..  Well, it wasn't appreciated by those in charge..  I am pretty sure that she learned that at CAP encampment.  Halfway through her training, during formation, she was awarded her high school diploma from the CO.  She had graduated in December and was in Basic in May when they were awarded so the school sent her diploma to Basic.  Everybody was going, "What's going on, I thought you had to be a high school graduate to enlist..  Then, the big surprise, at Graduation, she was the only Airman, awarded E-3, because of her Mitchell.  Again, the other Airmen were going, "What is going on here??"  She wasn't even a high school graduate and she is an E-3??   Anyhow, she is doing great, she thinks CAP helped her immensely and she has done 3 tours in the sandbox with the Security Forces..  Also, most of my cadets join CAP because they want to go into the military..       

[lordmonar]

If it didn't then the military wouldn't give promotions based on it.

Don't know about the other branches, but I do know that the AF gives stripes for college credit. It wouldn't be the only way to get advanced enlisted rank.

I think it's a case of an individual having some type of background showing a development of self discipline. It may not be that in so many words, but I think that's the principle behind it.

The USAF also give stripes for signing up for six years instead of 4......so be careful about what sort of brush you paint with.

On a side note.....there is almost no difference between and AB and A1C at their first duty station as far as their leadership and responsibilities are concerned. (nothing funnier then two airman arguing about time in grade!).

IMHO experince CAP does give our cadets some tools that will be of use to them in their USAF careers....but not really in basic.  They will know how to march and respond correctly.....but the TI's are not really looking for leaders at BMT.   When they go to tech school their CAP skills may be more valuable.....and once they start moving up in rank they will start to apply the lessons they learned at as a cadet.

But overall.....I don't think CAP is or should be preparing cadets to go the BMTS.

[raivo]

I went through OTS, not BOT, but the only real advantage CAP gave me was already knowing how to march and knowing the AF rank structure.

So, no, functionally I was pretty much on the same level as all the other non-priors.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

You all know that it's not just the AF that gives promotion based on the Mitchell, the Army Navy and Marines do as well. It is the fact that those who have gone through the cadet program know and understand how and why the rank structure works, marching, customs and courtesies, leadership fundamentals, and self discipline. It also is because they know it will take less to train that person.

I went through Infantry school once the first eight weeks were over and we started the more advanced stuff, our "Basic Training" was "over" we wore our patches and everything we were supposed to and we had promotion ceremonies. I was the only one to get my PFC E-3 Because of CAP and the Pre Basic Training Task List. Once My DS knew what I was being promoted to and why he asked why I hadn't said anything, I told him I was suggested not to. He told me that was all $&#%$&# up, If he knew he would have had me helping other trainees study their stuff at night instead of cleaning the latrines. He was actually pretty peeved that I hadn't told him. More military NCOs know and appreciate what CAP can, not always does, do to prepare for the military.

[Eclipse]

The Air Force and Army confer advanced grade specifically based on regulation relted to CAP and the Mitchell.  The Navy may give advanced
grade based on a "cadet program" or "leadership experience", etc., but not in the same way as the USAF and USA.

The Marines do not.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Well then that changed since I was 17. I had a Marine Recruiter trying to get me with E2 because of my Mitchell.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I just got off the phone with the local Marines recruiter. Yes, they do promote with the Mitchell award.

[Eclipse]

I just got off the phone with the local Marines recruiter. Yes, they do promote with the Mitchell award.

If they do it is based, like the Navy, on "general experience", etc.  There is no official allowance for it by name or reg.
The recruiters I have asked about this indicated that they don't like to give advanced grade to anyone.

[FlyTiger77]

But overall.....I don't think CAP is or should be preparing cadets to go the BMTS.

+1 (emphasis mine)

[DakRadz]

I just got off the phone with the local Marines recruiter. Yes, they do promote with the Mitchell award.

If they do it is based, like the Navy, on "general experience", etc.  There is no official allowance for it by name or reg.
The recruiters I have asked about this indicated that they don't like to give advanced grade to anyone.

Army, Navy, and Air Force all give E-3 for 3 years JROTC with approval from the cadet's commander. The Marine Corps only allows a maximum of E-2 advanced rank.
Air Force gives E-3 for the Mitchell- you might be able to convince the other services to do so, but USAF is the only one set in stone.

Even CAP's site says Air Force, and not any other service.
http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/html/teensFAQ.htm

I only mention JROTC to clarify how many people might believe that the Mitchell rated such grade. Same sort of deal as the "one SM one cadet is against regs" myth (Cross-thread bonus points!).

[FlyTiger77]

...deal as the "one SM one cadet is against regs" myth (Cross-thread bonus points!).

You lose points for bragging, though, so it is a net loss!

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Same sort of deal as the "one SM one cadet is against regs" myth (Cross-thread bonus points!).

I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense. What are you referring to?

[FlyTiger77]

Same sort of deal as the "one SM one cadet is against regs" myth (Cross-thread bonus points!).

I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense. What are you referring to?

He is referring to another thread that discusses the misperception that a single senior member can not be alone with a cadet due to Cadet Protection Policy. He was able trying to tie this thread in with that thread, which was actually quite well executed.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Same sort of deal as the "one SM one cadet is against regs" myth (Cross-thread bonus points!).

I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense. What are you referring to?

He is referring to another thread that discusses the misperception that a single senior member can not be alone with a cadet due to Cadet Protection Policy. He was able tie this thread in with that thread, which was actually quite well executed.

Ok, well, this one isn't a myth though.

[DakRadz]

Yes sir, it is.

There is no official agreement that allows a cadet with the Mitchell to enter the Army, Navy, or Marine Corps at advanced rank/rate.

There is an agreement with the Air Force for Mitchell cadets to enlist as E-3.

I have absolutely no doubt that a good Mitchell cadet would be recommended/guaranteed E-3 or E-2 if they impressed their USA/USN/USMC recruiter and showed their maturity; however comma there is not an official requirement that the recruiter do so.

If anyone can find a regulation to prove me wrong, I am open to learn.

[SarDragon]

Same sort of deal as the "one SM one cadet is against regs" myth (Cross-thread bonus points!).

I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense. What are you referring to?

He is referring to another thread that discusses the misperception that a single senior member can not be alone with a cadet due to Cadet Protection Policy. He was able tie this thread in with that thread, which was actually quite well executed.

Ok, well, this one isn't a myth though.

Define "this one." Is it the one-on-one situation, or the Mitchell situation?

[FlyTiger77]

...There is no official agreement that allows a cadet with the Mitchell to enter the Army, Navy, or Marine Corps at advanced rank/rate...

If anyone can find a regulation to prove me wrong, I am open to learn.

You owe me a Soda Pop, "Sprite Zero", 1 ea:

AR 601-210 para 2-18a states "The following explains who may enlist and when and at what pay grade. An applicant who—
{snip}
(10) Has completed all phase II requirements of the Air Force Civil Air Patrol and has been awarded the Billy
Mitchell Award may enlist at any time at pay grade PV2."

You can find the regulation at http://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/pdf/r601_210.pdf and the pertinent passage is found on page 15 of the regulation (and page 27 of the .pdf file).

[DakRadz]

But that's an Army reg!

It isn't E-3, though. But I'll be sure to make good on that debt, Col

CAP doesn't advertise this at all, though... They should. That's more money for the one enlisting. But anyway.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

No, that is only E2. The way a CAP cadet could (without being boy or girl scout or JROTC) join as an E3 is to also do the Prebasic Training Task List, or to recruit another person to the Army. I did all three, but still only got E3 as you can only combine two to get E3. You can't enlist as a E4 unless you go to college.

[FlyTiger77]

But that's an Army reg!

BLUF: You were wrong.

I will concede that an Army regulation does not constitute an "agreement" per se; however, I will submit that this is a distinction without a difference in that: a) it is in fact possible to enter the Army at an advanced rank/grade than someone not similarly situated and b) your argument seemed to be that only the USAF awarded advanced grade in recognition of the award of a Mitchell award.

The only possible source for the award of an advanced rank/grade for enlistment in the Army would by necessity have to be an Army regulation. Even if the genesis of the incentive were an MOU/MOA between the Army and its sometimes wayward offspring the Air Force, the guidance to the field would be codified in an Army document.

Also, your challenge lacked the specificity you imply now exists. Your statement was: "If anyone can find a regulation to prove me wrong, I am open to learn" which was not service-specific.

[DakRadz]

Also, your challenge lacked the specificity you imply now exists. Your statement was: "If anyone can find a regulation to prove me wrong, I am open to learn" which was not service-specific.

You're absolutely correct, sir. I meant to add a smiley or the like- the "But that's an Army reg" was more of a joke. I am open to learning
I accept the change. So, officially:
Mitchell-
USAF: E-3
USA: E-2
Any additions?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

USN and USMC, I don't have the regs, but I do have it from the recruiters that they do allow a promotion to E2 with the Mitchell Award.

[DakRadz]

USN and USMC, I don't have the regs, but I do have it from the recruiters that they do allow a promotion to E2 with the Mitchell Award.

The recruiters around you might do that, but... Do they all? That is the question.

I'll go research a bit on USN/USMC.

[SarDragon]

If the recruiters are doing it, then there's a reg somewhere allowing it. This also means that recruiters that aren't doing it are either likely lazy, or ill-informed, which is not a surprise.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

both are likely, Lazy is most often. My USAF recruiter was. That is why I went to the Army.

[DakRadz]

d. Civil Air Patrol. Applicants who provide documentation of having received the
Civil Air Patrol Billy Mitchell Award may be enlisted in paygrade E-2.

What a document. If you do not trust me and wish to read it, utilize search- 500+ pages. Page 4-13, or 355 on the PDF file.

Next up- USMC.

[Al Sayre]

Recruiters have some latitude as well.  When I was about to join the Navy, I told my recruiter the USAF was willing to give me E-3, he checked and did likewise - it was the end of the month and recruiting was slow...    Make sure you get it on your contract in writing.

[PHall]

Recruiters have some latitude as well.  When I was about to join the Navy, I told my recruiter the USAF was willing to give me E-3, he checked and did likewise - it was the end of the month and recruiting was slow...    Make sure you get it on your contract in writing.

Just another reason to go see the recruiter the last week of the month.
If they're hurtin' to make their quota you're much more valuable to them.
And like the man said, get it in writing on your enlistment contract.

[caphornbuckle]

Let's see here...where to start...

I was not implying that CAP prepares cadets for basic training to a point that it is the only thing CAP does.  Cadets wear the Air Force-Style uniform, learn the Air Force Grade Structure, and use the EXACT Air Force D&C manual.  So should it help cadets prepare for BMT?  Probably better than Joe Schmo off the street.  So does it help cadets now like it did for me then?

As for promotions, I don't know the regs. I got E-3 thanks to my Mitchell that's all I can tell ya!

Still no word on cadets doing Aircraft Identification in the new AE?

[ironputts]

Reseached enlistment ranks for CAP cadets entering military service in 2007 and still valid:

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3576.msg69575#msg69575

No aircraft identification in our AE.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

You are right hornbuckle, CAP does, in a roundabout manner help prepare cadets for BMT. I think it helps prepare cadets better for USAF more so than it does any other branch. Your right, everything we do is based of the USAF so far as D&C and rank structure and anything else from promotions to corrective actions. I think if done in a certain way the Cadet Program will help better prepare the cadet for service. To focus the training for the cadet to prepare for USAF or any other service, the CP needs to be oriented to that cadet in such a manner that everything in CP is taken care of and met but is also added to in order to prepare the cadet while knowing his intentions to enlist or become commissioned. CAP can do a lot  for a cadet who wishes to enlist. They won't have to be taught how to march, they won't have to be taught self disciplline, nor rank structure, PT has already been started, the cadet entering USAF training won't be a blank slate that has to be washed before it can be written on. The cadet will have a much easier time for the first one to two weeks of training. So far as aircraft recognition, I think CAP has gotten away from that. I don't see it in any of the manuals any more. That is too bad, those were some fun exercises.

[Patterson]

Coast Guard
COMDTINST M1100-2E
2.E.6.b Prior Education or training
4 U.S. Air Force Civil Air Patrol (CAP)
a. Applicants with two or more years of experience are eligible to enlist in pay grade E-2
b. Applicants with three years of experience or cadets who receive the General Billy Mitchell Award are eligible for to enlist in the pay grade pf E-3.

Had a Senior Member enlist about a year and a half ago in the Coast Guard Reserve.  She spent two years as a flight Officer, needed money to finish college, and now is on her way to becoming a Coast Guard Officer.   

[mmouw]

My wife was not a cadet, but joined as a senior member. She said that CAP helped with some things. There were two Honor Grads from her flight. She was one and the other female was also a senior member in CAP. Not sure if that is what helped, but it sure looked good when the only two CAPers there were the Honor Grads. 

[raivo]

Is there *any* sort of preparation for basic training that's helpful once you're there?

Doesn't matter how much you know about marching, uniforms, etc., if the TIs want to find something wrong, they will. As far as knowing how to march, well, bully for you - you're still getting chewed out until everyone in your flight does as well.

[BillB]

Go back to the history of the cadet program. It was originally designed to produce pilots and flight crews for the Army Air Corp. The training included aircraft recognition, morse code as well as D&C. When a cadet earned the red, white and blue training ribbons they were eligible for PFC on enlistment, and could wear the stripe during basic training. Look on eBay for the training manuals of the period, they are often listed including the Pre-Flight Training Manual. The entire concept of the cadet program was to prepare teenagers for military service. This training concept was in effect until 1964 when the current training program was established. (before many modifications) Encampments during and following World War II were mini BMT training. This concept carried up until the late 1970's when encampments were "softened" for the younger cadets entering CAP.

[sarmed1]

When I went thru Army Basic in the early 90's it wasnt the marching, C&C and boot polishing that stood out on prior CAP and JROTC trainees (though it helped, but come on, these are monkey teachable skills) it was the leadership techniques & people management skills that put those people in the forefront.  The Army was nice, if you were eligible for an advanced grade promotion based on CAP, JROTC, Eagle scout or college you wore it on the uniform from day 1.  There was no hiding it.  (I had one guy ommit certain information, he just said "...uh  I was in CAP"; he didnt mention he was a C/Col)

mk

[coudano]

I went through bmt in jan 2006 and i had a bit more experience at the time than a typical 18 year old mitchell cadet, heh.  I had done several encampments as a cadet, and RUN some, as a senior member.  But i will say that my general experiences at cap, especially encampment helped.  Drill, uniforms, hospital corner, sop a wall locker, cleaning, etc.  These things are pretty much all bmt is, over and over day after day.  Already being exposed to this made it easier on me than the culture shock on some of my flight mates.  I had less trouble 'adapting to military life'. This actually allowed me to pull extra weight for the team, as i wasnt as overwhelmed with my personal responsibilities.

The trick is to not get stuck in the specifics about how to do the job (the way you did it at cap) but to apply the principles behind the jobs, and be ADAPTABLE to the new environment.  Excellence, teamwork, situational awareness, attention to detail.  These are the things that cap exposes cadets to that really matter when that cadet gets to the military, and farrrrrrr more important on every level than drill, bling and pretentious behavior.

I was academic monitor for my flight and i have no recollection of any aircraft identification on the tests.  The usaf is moving toward a more expeditionary, combat grunt mentality though, and it has moved even further toward it since i went through.  Bmt is 2 weeks longer now, airmen do a 2 week ftx, and carry, clean, and drill with rifles throughout bmt.  Plus combatives training.  Thats a pretty far cry from the usaf of 1994 let alone further back.




Now, when i went through ams (like ocs) in nov 2008, that was like home away from home.   The cap cadet program (particularly phases 3 and 4) were almost perfect prep for that program, element for element.  It was like basic encampment meets cos almost exactly, infact...  And there, we did have aircraft id.  Heh.

[Ozzy]

You know, for the ARNG, I've getting PFC (E-3) as an Eaker cadet

[Patterson]

Go back to the history of the cadet program....The entire concept of the cadet program was to prepare teenagers for military service. This training concept was in effect until 1964 when the current training program was established. (before many modifications) Encampments during and following World War II were mini BMT training. This concept carried up until the late 1970's when encampments were "softened" for the younger cadets entering CAP.

I will agree that the Cadet Program did in fact prepare young men and women for service, but that is far as I will go to meet you on your assertions.

Encampments were not "mini BMT's".  They were organized along the same lines as Reserve and Guard training mobilizations.  It was a chance for all members of the Wing (sometimes region) to get together to familiarize themselves on new material, and equipment and sometimes support departing Reserve and Guard units.  It was originally for ADULT members of CAP.

Not until the 1950's were Encampments for "cadets only".  Even then, it was not what it is today.

[Flying Pig]

You know, for the ARNG, I've getting PFC (E-3) as an Eaker cadet

Your getting E-3 for your Mitchell.  However, there are many ways people enlisting can get advanced promotions that actually have nothing to do with military or para military training.  E1 through E-3 are time in grade promotions so they are pretty much a "gimme".  Its a recruiting tactic as well as recognizing you for going above and beyond your peers who are in basic with you.  That is unless you join the Marines, then you dont get squat.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

You know, for the ARNG, I've getting PFC (E-3) as an Eaker cadet

Your getting E-3 for your Mitchell.  However, there are many ways people enlisting can get advanced promotions that actually have nothing to do with military or para military training.  E1 through E-3 are time in grade promotions so they are pretty much a "gimme".  Its a recruiting tactic as well as recognizing you for going above and beyond your peers who are in basic with you.  That is unless you join the Marines, then you dont get squat.

The Marines will give E-2 for the Mitchell Award, I have checked in on it.

[DakRadz]

The Marines do not have an official regulation stating that. Recruiters have the option to allow it. The Marines are the only ones to not address CAP specifically in their regulation.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

The Marines do not have an official regulation stating that. Recruiters have the option to allow it. The Marines are the only ones to not address CAP specifically in their regulation.

As you said, recruiters have the option. So there you go the Marines will allow it. Besides recruiters wouldn't give up a recruit because they don't want to promote one a single grade. If there is the option, regardless of regulation, they allow it.

[Flying Pig]

You know, for the ARNG, I've getting PFC (E-3) as an Eaker cadet

Your getting E-3 for your Mitchell.  However, there are many ways people enlisting can get advanced promotions that actually have nothing to do with military or para military training.  E1 through E-3 are time in grade promotions so they are pretty much a "gimme".  Its a recruiting tactic as well as recognizing you for going above and beyond your peers who are in basic with you.  That is unless you join the Marines, then you dont get squat.

The Marines will give E-2 for the Mitchell Award, I have checked in on it.

Oh good.  its about time.  You can get E2 if you recruit someone into joining the Marines so getting a Mitchell shold get you E2. 

[Lawson]

A good friend of mine joined the USMC in either 04 or 05. She achieved the Billy Mitchell award and was a C/2LT. She received no type of bonus or rank increase from the USMC for her Mitchell.

[HGjunkie]

Did she ask about it?

[DBlair]

You know, for the ARNG, I've getting PFC (E-3) as an Eaker cadet

Your getting E-3 for your Mitchell.  However, there are many ways people enlisting can get advanced promotions that actually have nothing to do with military or para military training.  E1 through E-3 are time in grade promotions so they are pretty much a "gimme".  Its a recruiting tactic as well as recognizing you for going above and beyond your peers who are in basic with you.  That is unless you join the Marines, then you dont get squat.

The Marines will give E-2 for the Mitchell Award, I have checked in on it.

Oh good.  its about time.  You can get E2 if you recruit someone into joining the Marines so getting a Mitchell shold get you E2.

Unfortunately, the Mitchell Award/advance promotion topic has been a sour note with many Cadets I know who desire to (or did) join the Marine Corps. From what I understand, the Marines gave E-2 for a while, but no longer do so for CAP Cadets.

...they will give E-2 for being an Eagle Scout, though.

[HGjunkie]

The Eagle Scout advanced rank does make some kind of sense I guess. Probably because of the skillsets that come with it, such as knot-tying, leadership, and maybe even some wilderness survival skills.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I called to check with the USMC recruiter here in town last week, she said that she that when she looked into her computer it has a block to check off for the CAP Mitchell Award and checking the block gives her an option to promote to E2. So yes there is an option for it. She also said that if the person looking to join wants the promotion THEY HAVE TO ASK FOR IT. Also they have to bring in the original certificate.