The Age Gap Issue

[Eagle400]

Alright...

I know this has been discussed ad nauseum before, so I'll keep this as brief as I can.

12 to 21 yrs. is too much of a gap in age for members of any group, regardless of mission or focus.  I think most psychologists would agree, as well as other medical professionals in that field. 

U.S. Naval Sea Cadet Corps seems to lead the way in managing a youth cadet program with a big age gap.  (Albeit with minor differences, namely different min/max age caps).     

USNSCC has both Junior and Senior Cadet corps programs to break up the "psychological monotony" that comes with a gap in age as wide as the CAP Cadet Program's (in its current form).   


Question:

Would it be prudent for CAP to adopt a model similar to that of the USNSCC, in dealing with this issue?

If so... What's the best course of action for CAP in adopting it?


Clearly, the one in place now produces --in my opinion-- way too many negative issues (mainly, psychological difficulties resulting from the 12-21 age gap).  Namely, lack of one's ability to effectively relate to another (say, b/w a 12 yr old C/Amn and 20 yr old C/Col).   

btw... that's 8 yrs. of cadet experience talking (although it was --for the most part-- enjoyable & fulfilling). 

Hopefully current & up-and-coming cadets can have it better than I did!   


v/r,

matss

(Joined at age 12; left at 20). 

[NCRblues]

It sounds like you did not have such a good time as a cadet. For that i am sorry...

But this is not an issue where i am from. From day one the cadets (ALL cadets) are told and taught that they are important parts of the TEAM.

Not just the 20 year olds, but the 12's as well. Each age plays a big roll in the cadet programs.

One of the best parts of being a cadet i can remember was being able to bring in that lazy 12 year old that is starting to hit the "i don't care, i know everything" teenage stage and turn them around, and to make them a proud part of the CAP team.

Even if we split the cadet corp up to "senior cadet" and :junior cadet, would that not present the same problem you argue about? Older cadets getting more recognition and more responsibility?

Also who would run the "junior cadet" corp? Senior members with an even greater age gap?

[Eclipse]

Non issue.

[a2capt]

..and 22 years, to everything thing else - isn't any harder?

If a working unit, I don't see this as a problem. Thats part of the cadet program, to have the older ones lead the younger ones. It doesn't always work.

[BillB]

CCSE

CAP did have such a program in the past. Called Officer Trainign Corp. OTC was voluntary for cadets 18=21. Basically it was an combination cadet and Senior program. It failed due to one thing. It was voluntary. Also in joining oTC the member lost the ability to continue in the cadet program.
If the program could be brought back and manditory for 18-21 year olds, modify the grade insignia, allow progress in the cadet program up through Spaatz, and have a training program to develop senior leadership or professional development, the program would work. It would also fill the gap of the 18-21 year olds dropping from the program. The 18-21 year old needs to be in a peer group, not with a bunch of 12 year old cadet basics. Let the 16-17 year old train the basics. I drew up a proposal for "re-inventing" the OTC program and submitted to to National. Never even heard they got it or any comments.
Contrary to Eclipse's comment "no issue", there is an issue of the older cadets retention. The drop out rate for the 18-21 year old group is very large. This may be due to social or school activities, but more often lose of interest in the program designed for 12-15 year olds. A transition program is needed to retain these members.

[Eclipse]

Contrary to Eclipse's comment "no issue", there is an issue of the older cadets retention. The drop out rate for the 18-21 year old group is very large. This may be due to social or school activities, but more often lose of interest in the program designed for 12-15 year olds. A transition program is needed to retain these members.

A transition program won't change the fact that cadets 18-21 go away to college, the military, and other real-life things that make CAP a lesser priority, or they have taken what they needed from the program and have no interest in giving back.

[JC004]

I'd love to see more effort at giving older cadets more opportunities and all, but I cannot see splitting the whole cadet program.  For one reason, it is simply not large enough to do that on most any level.  Most squadrons are pretty small.  You might have 5 cadets in one program and 10 or 15 in the other part of the program.

[Eclipse]

I'd love to see more effort at giving older cadets more opportunities and all, but I cannot see splitting the whole cadet program.  For one reason, it is simply not large enough to do that on most any level.  Most squadrons are pretty small.  You might have 5 cadets in one program and 10 or 15 in the other part of the program.

Special activities, encampments, CAC, etc., scream every year for experienced, older cadets to participate, many can't be bothered.
Part of the issue is too many units appointing T-Sgt and 2d Lt. Cadet Commanders because the position is vacant instead of
having cadets serve in grade-appropriate roles and leaving those jobs open until the cadets are ready.

By C/Capt many cadets find they pretty much BTDT and are left in the back of the room, while not being encouraged to participate outside the unit.

[NCRblues]

My god..i...i actually agree with Eclipse on something...

This is one thing i stress to every older (16 and above) cadet....explore outside the squadron.... CAP offers so many opportunity's to these older cadets. I believe that most of the older cadets that are leaving cap, are because they get bored at their home squadron, and never get to see what cap really can offer these kids.

[JC004]

I'd love to see more effort at giving older cadets more opportunities and all, but I cannot see splitting the whole cadet program.  For one reason, it is simply not large enough to do that on most any level.  Most squadrons are pretty small.  You might have 5 cadets in one program and 10 or 15 in the other part of the program.

Special activities, encampments, CAC, etc., scream every year for experienced, older cadets to participate, many can't be bothered.
Part of the issue is too many units appointing T-Sgt and 2d Lt. Cadet Commanders because the position is vacant instead of
having cadets serve in grade-appropriate roles and leaving those jobs open until the cadets are ready.

By C/Capt many cadets find they pretty much BTDT and are left in the back of the room, while not being encouraged to participate outside the unit.

I'm not proposing splitting the programs, reinstating the other program mentioned, etc., but I'd like to see, for instance, more wings bringing cadets in for group and wing level projects.  Maybe more NCSAs, stuff like that, but I can't think of any that are screaming "create me" at the moment and those are short-term things.

Encampment, NCSAs, and other short-term stuff would be well supplemented by longer-term projects (like developing ______ school or training at wing), involving cadets as comm officers, ES officers, aerospace officers at group/wing levels, and the like. 

A lot of the cadets WIWAC would have jumped at these opportunities after they had moved on from CAC, done a handful of NCSAs, and been all the way up to command staff at encampment.

We asked for this stuff when I was on CAC.  I don't know if the wing commander and others ever got the proposals.  I'd have to ask FW.

[Eagle400]

Well...

I think we can all agree that with the present system, the lines are blurred too much from the git-go.  (Too many variables).  Example:

Okay... We've got one C/CC at age 20; One C/1SGT at 16; Two C/SrA's at 14; six C/A1C's at 13; and six C/Amn at 12.

What to do?  :/

So it seems to me that creating a separation --within the cadet program-- is advisable at this time. 

Now I'm not talking about the Middle School Initiative... I'm talking about 2 cadet programs: Young (12-15) and Young Adult (16-20).   



Some questions to ask:

Who will be best impacted by a 2 cadet program solution?
What line can be drawn, if any?
Where do we draw it?
Why should we draw it?
When should it be done?

...And how.

[tsrup]

I can see where you're comming from, what with no 16 year old wants to join a program run by 14 year olds (but hey, I did it, and I was a c/2nd Lt in JROTC at the time) but the fact of the matter is, the main reason that there is a drop off of 18-21 year olds is simple.  We lose them to REAL LIFE.  I was gone for a while even.  The fact of the matter is that splitting the program and making it more difficult is not going to replace the fact that real life happens after graduation and some cadets move on to bigger and (hopefully) better things.  It's life.  The best we can do is hope that we have positively impacted them in a way that brings them back to us in the future (like I did). 

You want to talk disparity, talk about a 21 year old First Lieutenant and a 50 year old SMWOG.  It goes on from there, but for some reason the program works.

[Pylon]

Well...

I think we can all agree that with the present system, the lines are blurred too much from the git-go.  (Too many variables).

No, I don't think we can all agree.  In fact, I think many of us feel that's not the case at all.  Re-read the above posts.

What to do?  :/

Nothing.  Operate the cadet program like it is successfully operating in many places already with cadets ages 12 to 20.   Just because your experience with the cadet program was that it didn't work doesn't mean that it doesn't work well for the rest of CAP.

So it seems to me that creating a separation --within the cadet program-- is advisable at this time. 

There's already natural separation based on cadet grade.  The older cadets are higher ranking -- doing cadet officer type stuffs in leadership roles.  If they joined early enough, hopefully they're doing phase IV type stuff.   They're not out leading a bunch of C/Amn in drill, or sitting in the Basic Uniforms Class next to C/SrA Snuffy.  They're in the office putting together training schedules, meeting with the cadet or senior staffs, working on projects assigned to them, annd maybe supervising or mentoring some other senior-ranking cadets. 

Now I'm not talking about the Middle School Initiative... I'm talking about 2 cadet programs: Young (12-15) and Young Adult (16-20).   

Solution in search of a problem that doesn't exist.

Who will be best impacted by a 2 cadet program solution?

Nobody.  You draw unit and senior member resources thinner, you fragment the cadet program's neatly-organized and progressive four phases, and you create increased logistical and administrative ridiculousness.  And we already have enough of that.

What line can be drawn, if any?

How about right where the program is now?  That's where I draw my line.  No change needed here.  Let's find something else to work on.

[JC004]

As I said, CAP is simply not big enough for this.  Most squadrons have enough trouble having more than one or two flights of cadets under the current program.

I also agree with the other message...why the older cadets leave.  At my little non-profit (150 volunteers, 100 percent retention last year), we don't count the students (interns, practicum, work study in our case) in our retention numbers because they're SUPPOSED to leave.  They're there for a semester or two - that's their job.  A number stay and volunteer anyways, but just as with that, our cadets are SUPPOSED to leave and they doooo. 

Depending on your mix, you can get the WHOLE head chopped off a unit this way once school lets out and they all go off to college, the military, and the like.  Now, we WANT the cadets to come back after college and all, but they're going to continue leaving for college and such, no matter what.

If we chopped the cadet program down the middle and we had a situation at a squadron like I mentioned (and it seems to happen a lot - I did a lot of statistical analysis of PAWG), you could end up with 10 cadets in Little Cadet Program and 1 or 2 cadets left in Big Cadet Program.  That's a problem.

I think that offering additional opportunities like I mentioned would help with the older cadets - increase their retention a bit until they're supposed to leave, give them more experience with life stuff, train 'em better.  Splitting the program...I just can't imagine that.  Not at this size.

I don't know what the current numbers are.  (anyone wanna help?)  Assuming we're at like 55,000 members and still have like 1,500 units or whatever, then splitting that number in half, that's like 18 cadets on average per unit (yeah, I know, groups/wings, etc.).  That's kind of a hack job way to do the stats, but I don't have any better ones at the moment (anyone?!).  If they're about right, you'd suffer badly splitting into two programs.

[Eclipse]

Depending on your mix, you can get the WHOLE head chopped off a unit this way once school lets out and they all go off to college, the military, and the like.

+1 - This highlights the danger of composite and cadet units who's senior leaders are primarily parents.  Cadets tend to join in waves, and leave as such as well, usually taking mom & dad with them.

Units that are Spaatz factories one year become ghost towns the next and everyone left can't figure out why.

The answer is that there needs to be a core group of senior members who are not transient in the way cadets are.

[lordmonar]

What would the other cadet program be like?

Is is just a seperate catagory with different opportunities or a whole other unit/program....i.e. Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and Venture Scouts.

with that in mind I agree with JC004....splitting the program would create huge problems in the way we do Cadet Programs and manage our units.

[JC004]

What would the other cadet program be like?

Is is just a seperate catagory with different opportunities or a whole other unit/program....i.e. Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and Venture Scouts.

with that in mind I agree with JC004....splitting the program would create huge problems in the way we do Cadet Programs and manage our units.

The programs you mention have the numbers to do that, obviously.  Plus, they have different programs to them.  I just have no idea what variations we'd have in CAP if there were two programs.  It feels like Smitty is suggesting that we just split them for age and have the same program.

[RiverAux]

Break down the numbers and you will find that there are very few cadets on the extreme age of the age spectrum allowed by the program and that a very high majority are in the middle.  So despite the possible range of ages, most units are not going to have more than maybe 1 or 2 18+ cadets and 1 or 2 on the low end.

[ZigZag911]

The age disparity issue is indeed a problem.

Had my case jumped by a National CV about 10 years ago for raising the issue in a (supposedly!) open forum; he said it wasn't a problem, so it wasn't a problem!

CAP has put a Band Aid on the situation by requiring Cadet Protection course of 18 year old cadets.

There should not be 18 year old cadets (and I should know, I was one till I was past 19)...too big an emotional gap, maturity gap, and of course the legal liability attendant.

Restore the OTC...allow 18-21 year olds who have been cadets to keep working toward milestone awards...but get these young adults into the senior program.

[High Speed Low Drag]

I don't think there is a problem.  Our cadet commander is a sophomore in college, the first sergeant and training sgt just graduated high school and the flight sergeant is 13.  We have 35 active cadets of all age range and they all work well together.  I don't see the problem - as a matter of fact, I think it is an advantage.  The younger ones look up to the older ones and the older ones take good care of mrntoring the younger ones.  In the cases where the older cadet is junior tot he younger cadet, they still get along well.  It helps the older one learn how to deal with a younger supervisor and vice-versa for the young supervisor, both of which are necessary life skills.

I think the cadet program is just fine the way it is.  (I was in from 12-19)