The Age Gap Issue

[Nathan]

OK, well, my feeling for a long time has been everyone should be a senior at 18...which would have affected me all those years ago WIWAC too, so I understand the broad disagreement with that view...most of the 'evidence' on both sides is anecdotal, so I suggest we agree to disagree on this one...I recognize I am in the minority on this one.

It would make it extremely difficult for most people to complete the program. I joined at 14, and didn't get my Spaatz until I was 20. I suppose I could have shaved a year or so off if I had burned through the program at the fastest pace possible, but that sort of defeats the point of even having a rank if your only goal is to promote. 5-6 years for the Spaatz is not a bad pace, and an 18 year old age cap would make life difficult for most cadets who are trying to attain it.

[BillB]

Nathan  There would not be a problem with an 18 year old cap if there was a transition program that would allow continued achievements to be completed while still allowing Senior level Professional Development. That was the problem with the old tranition program it didn't allow a member to atempt to earn the Spaatz. A program for 18-21 year olds that allowed progression through cadet milestones while transitioning to senior membership would solve the problem.

[Ned]

That was the problem with the old tranition program it didn't allow a member to atempt to earn the Spaatz.

Bill,

While I concur there were problems with the old ACT/STP programs, but this wasn't one of them.

My lovely wife earned her Spaatz (#235) while participating in the ACT program.

Somebody must have a copy of the old reg to show this was possible (and encouraged.)

[Nathan]

Nathan  There would not be a problem with an 18 year old cap if there was a transition program that would allow continued achievements to be completed while still allowing Senior level Professional Development. That was the problem with the old tranition program it didn't allow a member to atempt to earn the Spaatz. A program for 18-21 year olds that allowed progression through cadet milestones while transitioning to senior membership would solve the problem.

Erm, I don't think that would solve any problem. The reason people should get the Spaatz has very little to do with the award itself, and has a lot more to do with the experience that one goes through on the way. While many of the lessons learned on the way to the Spaatz are designed to be applicable to the real world, the cadet environment is designed to allow for practice of these specific skills. The senior environment is not.

For instance, the Spaatz exam does cover some drill stuff. Most senior members don't even know how to do an about face, let alone the proper procedure for calling mass commands. The Spaatz exam teaches cadets skills for running a staff meeting approximately around the rank at which they should have a higher cadet position. Many senior members will not have the opportunity to run a staff meeting until they are a squadron commander. Cadets are taught specific counseling techniques, especially as they apply to teenagers, but most senior member jobs do not provide opportunities to counsel other members. Many of the cadet officer skill sets are designed to teach cadets how to handle organizing massive, encampment-sized groups of people, which the vast majority of senior members will never command.

The cadet environment is shaped in order to provide cadets an opportunity to practice the skills we want to teach them, and the senior member side of the program is designed more to complete a mission, not so much to provide a training ground. Telling cadets that they could earn the Spaatz award as a senior member is like telling a law student that they could earn a medical degree by taking all the med school tests from home without actually having the opportunity to practice the skills.

[ZigZag911]

If the Spaatz (or Spaatz & Eaker) were moved to the 18-21 range (for simplicity let's call them 'officer candidates') then of course there would need to be some adaptations to the program.

For instance, staff service for these awards might be in a senior staff position at squadron level, or as an assistant at group/wing/region.

Certain higher level posts in cadet program (e.g., drill team CC, cadet encampment CC/XO etc) might be designated for "transitioners"...possibly as a service requirement to encourage participation.

Details can be resolved; first step would be to look at optional ACT program established in the 70s, start from there.

[Nathan]

Certain higher level posts in cadet program (e.g., drill team CC, cadet encampment CC/XO etc) might be designated for "transitioners"...possibly as a service requirement to encourage participation.

So you would want to put senior members in cadet positions, doing cadet duties, instead of regular cadets?

I think there are some issues with the age gap, but I see things being a lot easier to adjust when we stick the age cap at 21, not 18 (assuming we need to change things at all).

[TexasBirdGirl]

From my humble experience the age gap can be quite difficult to deal with. Most posts here seem to assume that a C/AB is 12 and a Cadet Officers are all much older. Not always the case. It is not unusual to have people join CAP at age 16 or 17, and I have had 14 year old Cadet Officers.

We try to get around the difficulty with mentorship, but it is not always a piece of cake. Maybe in smaller units, it is not such a big deal, I do not know.

[Flying Pig]

I have absolutely NO data on this, but I would say the number of cadets who stay in past 18-19 yrs old is probably pretty small.  I think it sets good role models for the younger ones to see older cadets.  As soon as you turn senior, I think you instantly take on a parent role, even if you an 18yr old Flight Officer.

[ZigZag911]

Again, the maturity difference between a 12-13 y.o. and a 16-17 y.o. can be vast.

[jimmydeanno]

Again, the maturity difference between a 12-13 y.o. and a 16-17 y.o. can be vast.

...or, non-existent

[ZigZag911]

And, admittedly, either one can bite a squadron commander in the posterior if proper supervision is not exercised!

[Майор Хаткевич]

I have absolutely NO data on this, but I would say the number of cadets who stay in past 18-19 yrs old is probably pretty small.  I think it sets good role models for the younger ones to see older cadets.  As soon as you turn senior, I think you instantly take on a parent role, even if you an 18yr old Flight Officer.

1,624 Total @ 18 = 6.84%
714 Total @ 19 = 3.01%
391 Total @ 20 = 1.65%

Yay for being in the 1.65% and the 3.90% Earhart number!

http://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/Stats_C091196AC47C8.pdf

[Eagle400]

As to my original proposal...

I didn't factor in the need for having twice as many CP personnel to supervise both programs (among other potential issues).  That would be a fail, for sure.   

Lack of progression would be another issue.  A cadet would serve from age 12 to 16 in one program... and then bang he's 17, and would have to to start all over.   

Oh yeah... and the 52-16 would have to be rewritten more than it has been already.  This comes from a guy who went through Levels I and II under the 50-16, and jumped from C/MSgt to Mitchell during the transition.       

All things considered, the program currently in place is a million times better than what I've proposed.

Thanks for your feedback everyone.