The Age Gap Issue

[Eagle400]

Alright...

I know this has been discussed ad nauseum before, so I'll keep this as brief as I can.

12 to 21 yrs. is too much of a gap in age for members of any group, regardless of mission or focus.  I think most psychologists would agree, as well as other medical professionals in that field. 

U.S. Naval Sea Cadet Corps seems to lead the way in managing a youth cadet program with a big age gap.  (Albeit with minor differences, namely different min/max age caps).     

USNSCC has both Junior and Senior Cadet corps programs to break up the "psychological monotony" that comes with a gap in age as wide as the CAP Cadet Program's (in its current form).   


Question:

Would it be prudent for CAP to adopt a model similar to that of the USNSCC, in dealing with this issue?

If so... What's the best course of action for CAP in adopting it?


Clearly, the one in place now produces --in my opinion-- way too many negative issues (mainly, psychological difficulties resulting from the 12-21 age gap).  Namely, lack of one's ability to effectively relate to another (say, b/w a 12 yr old C/Amn and 20 yr old C/Col).   

btw... that's 8 yrs. of cadet experience talking (although it was --for the most part-- enjoyable & fulfilling). 

Hopefully current & up-and-coming cadets can have it better than I did!   


v/r,

matss

(Joined at age 12; left at 20). 

[NCRblues]

It sounds like you did not have such a good time as a cadet. For that i am sorry...

But this is not an issue where i am from. From day one the cadets (ALL cadets) are told and taught that they are important parts of the TEAM.

Not just the 20 year olds, but the 12's as well. Each age plays a big roll in the cadet programs.

One of the best parts of being a cadet i can remember was being able to bring in that lazy 12 year old that is starting to hit the "i don't care, i know everything" teenage stage and turn them around, and to make them a proud part of the CAP team.

Even if we split the cadet corp up to "senior cadet" and :junior cadet, would that not present the same problem you argue about? Older cadets getting more recognition and more responsibility?

Also who would run the "junior cadet" corp? Senior members with an even greater age gap?

[Eclipse]

Non issue.

[a2capt]

..and 22 years, to everything thing else - isn't any harder?

If a working unit, I don't see this as a problem. Thats part of the cadet program, to have the older ones lead the younger ones. It doesn't always work.

[BillB]

CCSE

CAP did have such a program in the past. Called Officer Trainign Corp. OTC was voluntary for cadets 18=21. Basically it was an combination cadet and Senior program. It failed due to one thing. It was voluntary. Also in joining oTC the member lost the ability to continue in the cadet program.
If the program could be brought back and manditory for 18-21 year olds, modify the grade insignia, allow progress in the cadet program up through Spaatz, and have a training program to develop senior leadership or professional development, the program would work. It would also fill the gap of the 18-21 year olds dropping from the program. The 18-21 year old needs to be in a peer group, not with a bunch of 12 year old cadet basics. Let the 16-17 year old train the basics. I drew up a proposal for "re-inventing" the OTC program and submitted to to National. Never even heard they got it or any comments.
Contrary to Eclipse's comment "no issue", there is an issue of the older cadets retention. The drop out rate for the 18-21 year old group is very large. This may be due to social or school activities, but more often lose of interest in the program designed for 12-15 year olds. A transition program is needed to retain these members.

[Eclipse]

Contrary to Eclipse's comment "no issue", there is an issue of the older cadets retention. The drop out rate for the 18-21 year old group is very large. This may be due to social or school activities, but more often lose of interest in the program designed for 12-15 year olds. A transition program is needed to retain these members.

A transition program won't change the fact that cadets 18-21 go away to college, the military, and other real-life things that make CAP a lesser priority, or they have taken what they needed from the program and have no interest in giving back.

[JC004]

I'd love to see more effort at giving older cadets more opportunities and all, but I cannot see splitting the whole cadet program.  For one reason, it is simply not large enough to do that on most any level.  Most squadrons are pretty small.  You might have 5 cadets in one program and 10 or 15 in the other part of the program.

[Eclipse]

I'd love to see more effort at giving older cadets more opportunities and all, but I cannot see splitting the whole cadet program.  For one reason, it is simply not large enough to do that on most any level.  Most squadrons are pretty small.  You might have 5 cadets in one program and 10 or 15 in the other part of the program.

Special activities, encampments, CAC, etc., scream every year for experienced, older cadets to participate, many can't be bothered.
Part of the issue is too many units appointing T-Sgt and 2d Lt. Cadet Commanders because the position is vacant instead of
having cadets serve in grade-appropriate roles and leaving those jobs open until the cadets are ready.

By C/Capt many cadets find they pretty much BTDT and are left in the back of the room, while not being encouraged to participate outside the unit.

[NCRblues]

My god..i...i actually agree with Eclipse on something...

This is one thing i stress to every older (16 and above) cadet....explore outside the squadron.... CAP offers so many opportunity's to these older cadets. I believe that most of the older cadets that are leaving cap, are because they get bored at their home squadron, and never get to see what cap really can offer these kids.

[JC004]

I'd love to see more effort at giving older cadets more opportunities and all, but I cannot see splitting the whole cadet program.  For one reason, it is simply not large enough to do that on most any level.  Most squadrons are pretty small.  You might have 5 cadets in one program and 10 or 15 in the other part of the program.

Special activities, encampments, CAC, etc., scream every year for experienced, older cadets to participate, many can't be bothered.
Part of the issue is too many units appointing T-Sgt and 2d Lt. Cadet Commanders because the position is vacant instead of
having cadets serve in grade-appropriate roles and leaving those jobs open until the cadets are ready.

By C/Capt many cadets find they pretty much BTDT and are left in the back of the room, while not being encouraged to participate outside the unit.

I'm not proposing splitting the programs, reinstating the other program mentioned, etc., but I'd like to see, for instance, more wings bringing cadets in for group and wing level projects.  Maybe more NCSAs, stuff like that, but I can't think of any that are screaming "create me" at the moment and those are short-term things.

Encampment, NCSAs, and other short-term stuff would be well supplemented by longer-term projects (like developing ______ school or training at wing), involving cadets as comm officers, ES officers, aerospace officers at group/wing levels, and the like. 

A lot of the cadets WIWAC would have jumped at these opportunities after they had moved on from CAC, done a handful of NCSAs, and been all the way up to command staff at encampment.

We asked for this stuff when I was on CAC.  I don't know if the wing commander and others ever got the proposals.  I'd have to ask FW.

[Eagle400]

Well...

I think we can all agree that with the present system, the lines are blurred too much from the git-go.  (Too many variables).  Example:

Okay... We've got one C/CC at age 20; One C/1SGT at 16; Two C/SrA's at 14; six C/A1C's at 13; and six C/Amn at 12.

What to do?  :/

So it seems to me that creating a separation --within the cadet program-- is advisable at this time. 

Now I'm not talking about the Middle School Initiative... I'm talking about 2 cadet programs: Young (12-15) and Young Adult (16-20).   



Some questions to ask:

Who will be best impacted by a 2 cadet program solution?
What line can be drawn, if any?
Where do we draw it?
Why should we draw it?
When should it be done?

...And how.

[tsrup]

I can see where you're comming from, what with no 16 year old wants to join a program run by 14 year olds (but hey, I did it, and I was a c/2nd Lt in JROTC at the time) but the fact of the matter is, the main reason that there is a drop off of 18-21 year olds is simple.  We lose them to REAL LIFE.  I was gone for a while even.  The fact of the matter is that splitting the program and making it more difficult is not going to replace the fact that real life happens after graduation and some cadets move on to bigger and (hopefully) better things.  It's life.  The best we can do is hope that we have positively impacted them in a way that brings them back to us in the future (like I did). 

You want to talk disparity, talk about a 21 year old First Lieutenant and a 50 year old SMWOG.  It goes on from there, but for some reason the program works.

[Pylon]

Well...

I think we can all agree that with the present system, the lines are blurred too much from the git-go.  (Too many variables).

No, I don't think we can all agree.  In fact, I think many of us feel that's not the case at all.  Re-read the above posts.

What to do?  :/

Nothing.  Operate the cadet program like it is successfully operating in many places already with cadets ages 12 to 20.   Just because your experience with the cadet program was that it didn't work doesn't mean that it doesn't work well for the rest of CAP.

So it seems to me that creating a separation --within the cadet program-- is advisable at this time. 

There's already natural separation based on cadet grade.  The older cadets are higher ranking -- doing cadet officer type stuffs in leadership roles.  If they joined early enough, hopefully they're doing phase IV type stuff.   They're not out leading a bunch of C/Amn in drill, or sitting in the Basic Uniforms Class next to C/SrA Snuffy.  They're in the office putting together training schedules, meeting with the cadet or senior staffs, working on projects assigned to them, annd maybe supervising or mentoring some other senior-ranking cadets. 

Now I'm not talking about the Middle School Initiative... I'm talking about 2 cadet programs: Young (12-15) and Young Adult (16-20).   

Solution in search of a problem that doesn't exist.

Who will be best impacted by a 2 cadet program solution?

Nobody.  You draw unit and senior member resources thinner, you fragment the cadet program's neatly-organized and progressive four phases, and you create increased logistical and administrative ridiculousness.  And we already have enough of that.

What line can be drawn, if any?

How about right where the program is now?  That's where I draw my line.  No change needed here.  Let's find something else to work on.

[JC004]

As I said, CAP is simply not big enough for this.  Most squadrons have enough trouble having more than one or two flights of cadets under the current program.

I also agree with the other message...why the older cadets leave.  At my little non-profit (150 volunteers, 100 percent retention last year), we don't count the students (interns, practicum, work study in our case) in our retention numbers because they're SUPPOSED to leave.  They're there for a semester or two - that's their job.  A number stay and volunteer anyways, but just as with that, our cadets are SUPPOSED to leave and they doooo. 

Depending on your mix, you can get the WHOLE head chopped off a unit this way once school lets out and they all go off to college, the military, and the like.  Now, we WANT the cadets to come back after college and all, but they're going to continue leaving for college and such, no matter what.

If we chopped the cadet program down the middle and we had a situation at a squadron like I mentioned (and it seems to happen a lot - I did a lot of statistical analysis of PAWG), you could end up with 10 cadets in Little Cadet Program and 1 or 2 cadets left in Big Cadet Program.  That's a problem.

I think that offering additional opportunities like I mentioned would help with the older cadets - increase their retention a bit until they're supposed to leave, give them more experience with life stuff, train 'em better.  Splitting the program...I just can't imagine that.  Not at this size.

I don't know what the current numbers are.  (anyone wanna help?)  Assuming we're at like 55,000 members and still have like 1,500 units or whatever, then splitting that number in half, that's like 18 cadets on average per unit (yeah, I know, groups/wings, etc.).  That's kind of a hack job way to do the stats, but I don't have any better ones at the moment (anyone?!).  If they're about right, you'd suffer badly splitting into two programs.

[Eclipse]

Depending on your mix, you can get the WHOLE head chopped off a unit this way once school lets out and they all go off to college, the military, and the like.

+1 - This highlights the danger of composite and cadet units who's senior leaders are primarily parents.  Cadets tend to join in waves, and leave as such as well, usually taking mom & dad with them.

Units that are Spaatz factories one year become ghost towns the next and everyone left can't figure out why.

The answer is that there needs to be a core group of senior members who are not transient in the way cadets are.

[lordmonar]

What would the other cadet program be like?

Is is just a seperate catagory with different opportunities or a whole other unit/program....i.e. Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and Venture Scouts.

with that in mind I agree with JC004....splitting the program would create huge problems in the way we do Cadet Programs and manage our units.

[JC004]

What would the other cadet program be like?

Is is just a seperate catagory with different opportunities or a whole other unit/program....i.e. Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and Venture Scouts.

with that in mind I agree with JC004....splitting the program would create huge problems in the way we do Cadet Programs and manage our units.

The programs you mention have the numbers to do that, obviously.  Plus, they have different programs to them.  I just have no idea what variations we'd have in CAP if there were two programs.  It feels like Smitty is suggesting that we just split them for age and have the same program.

[RiverAux]

Break down the numbers and you will find that there are very few cadets on the extreme age of the age spectrum allowed by the program and that a very high majority are in the middle.  So despite the possible range of ages, most units are not going to have more than maybe 1 or 2 18+ cadets and 1 or 2 on the low end.

[ZigZag911]

The age disparity issue is indeed a problem.

Had my case jumped by a National CV about 10 years ago for raising the issue in a (supposedly!) open forum; he said it wasn't a problem, so it wasn't a problem!

CAP has put a Band Aid on the situation by requiring Cadet Protection course of 18 year old cadets.

There should not be 18 year old cadets (and I should know, I was one till I was past 19)...too big an emotional gap, maturity gap, and of course the legal liability attendant.

Restore the OTC...allow 18-21 year olds who have been cadets to keep working toward milestone awards...but get these young adults into the senior program.

[High Speed Low Drag]

I don't think there is a problem.  Our cadet commander is a sophomore in college, the first sergeant and training sgt just graduated high school and the flight sergeant is 13.  We have 35 active cadets of all age range and they all work well together.  I don't see the problem - as a matter of fact, I think it is an advantage.  The younger ones look up to the older ones and the older ones take good care of mrntoring the younger ones.  In the cases where the older cadet is junior tot he younger cadet, they still get along well.  It helps the older one learn how to deal with a younger supervisor and vice-versa for the young supervisor, both of which are necessary life skills.

I think the cadet program is just fine the way it is.  (I was in from 12-19)

[Eagle400]

The programs you mention have the numbers to do that, obviously.  Plus, they have different programs to them.  I just have no idea what variations we'd have in CAP if there were two programs.

Me neither; that's why I posted the idea here, for discussion.

It feels like Smitty is suggesting that we just split them for age and have the same program.

Correct, Sir.

However, the consensus of the majority (here) is that separating cadets by age would be a bad idea, no matter what form it would take. 

For the moment, I tend to agree. 

And please keep in mind... that my experience is --on the one hand-- nothing to sneeze at... But also nothing to write home about either.  Bottom line: without folks to guide me, I'm like a lost sheep in the woods.       


Now then... one thing I can say, is that CAP cadet/composite squadrons tend to yield fewer cadets than the U.S. Navy Sea Cadet Corps units do. 

Why?

Because the USNSCC (at least it my backyard) devotes one weekend a month for cadet training; no weekly meetings for the cadets.  And there are a lot more youths available for 2 days a month vs. 3-4 hours a week.

With that in mind: Perhaps if CAP also did the one weekend a month thing, then separation by age would be more appropriate? 

(Now realize: I do not agree with CAP going to 1 weekend a month in place of meeting 3-4 hrs. a week... Rather, I'm trying to figure out why age separation is more appropriate for the USNSCC, than for CAP).   

And just to reiterate... For the moment, I tend to agree with those who feel separation by age is a bad idea for CAP. 

Thank you kindly. 

[lordmonar]

I was not advocating a program like this....I was just wondering if the OP had any follow up to his supposed problem.

One of the fustrating problems here on CT is that too many people just say "Well there ought to be something different/better/easier/what ever"....but they themselves have no idea what that something should be.

This is not just with the age gap....and you all know my opinion about that.....but also go to the Vanguard monopoly, ES training, promotion systems, uniforms/bling/pink tutus.

So...Custer....you got any ideas?  Do you have any thing more then "let's speperate the old cadets from the young cadets"?  I really would like to know.....heck you migh just have something that could work.

(Now that I got it in the right thread) 

[Eagle400]

I was not advocating a program like this....I was just wondering if the OP had any follow up to his supposed problem.

One of the fustrating problems here on CT is that too many people just say "Well there ought to be something different/better/easier/what ever"....but they themselves have no idea what that something should be.

This is not just with the age gap....and you all know my opinion about that.....but also go to the Vanguard monopoly, ES training, promotion systems, uniforms/bling/pink tutus.

So...Custer....you got any ideas?  Do you have any thing more then "let's speperate the old cadets from the young cadets"?  I really would like to know.....heck you migh just have something that could work.

(Now that I got it in the right thread) 

I guess the only solution that's viable (and workable)... is to change the minimum cadet age from 12 to 15. 

I know when I joined at 12, I certainly wasn't ready to deal with 18, 19 and 20 year olds above me.  Same deal outside of CAP, too. 

Apart from upping the minimum age for joining, I'm out of ideas.   

[HGjunkie]

I was not advocating a program like this....I was just wondering if the OP had any follow up to his supposed problem.

One of the fustrating problems here on CT is that too many people just say "Well there ought to be something different/better/easier/what ever"....but they themselves have no idea what that something should be.

This is not just with the age gap....and you all know my opinion about that.....but also go to the Vanguard monopoly, ES training, promotion systems, uniforms/bling/pink tutus.

So...Custer....you got any ideas?  Do you have any thing more then "let's speperate the old cadets from the young cadets"?  I really would like to know.....heck you migh just have something that could work.

(Now that I got it in the right thread) 

I guess the only solution that's viable (and workable)... is to change the minimum cadet age from 12 to 15. 

I know when I joined at 12, I certainly wasn't ready to deal with 18, 19 and 20 year olds above me.  Same deal outside of CAP, too. 

Apart from upping the minimum age for joining, I'm out of ideas.   

Here's one. Instead of changing a 65+ year old program that has never really had an age problem before, leave it be and try not to revise the whole cadet program. If it worked back in the '40s, it'll work now.

[Eclipse]

The majority of our cadet membership joins between 12 & 15, and the numbers of cadets who are in unit leadership positions past 18 is so small as to be a non-factor from a program perspective.

So your non-problem is self-correcting.

[jimmydeanno]

Here's one. Instead of changing a 65+ year old program that has never really had an age problem before, leave it be and try not to revise the whole cadet program. If it worked back in the '40s, it'll work now.

The cadet program ages have changed numerous times since our inception.  IIRC, the first cadets were ages 15-17.  Then the "Jack Sorenson" version of the cadet program came around and the ages changed again.

Then the "12 or in the 6th grade" rule came in, allowing 10 year olds who are homeschooled to come in.

Then it was changed back to 12.

So there has been a lot of modification to the "65+ year old program that has never had an age issue before."  Just sayin.

[Eclipse]

The same age gap dynamic exisits, to a certain extent, in the BSA as well.  Somehow they seem to be able to cope.

[ZigZag911]

The majority of our cadet membership joins between 12 & 15, and the numbers of cadets who are in unit leadership positions past 18 is so small as to be a non-factor from a program perspective.

So your non-problem is self-correcting.

Again, only part of the problem surfaces at local squadrons (inappropriate fraternization); the other major venue is overnight activities, especially encampments, which often do have a very mixed age group of cadet participants, often with older ones in key leadership roles.

[tsrup]

The majority of our cadet membership joins between 12 & 15, and the numbers of cadets who are in unit leadership positions past 18 is so small as to be a non-factor from a program perspective.

So your non-problem is self-correcting.

Again, only part of the problem surfaces at local squadrons (inappropriate fraternization); the other major venue is overnight activities, especially encampments, which often do have a very mixed age group of cadet participants, often with older ones in key leadership roles.

And these problems are what exactly (other than big words)?

[Eclipse]

The majority of our cadet membership joins between 12 & 15, and the numbers of cadets who are in unit leadership positions past 18 is so small as to be a non-factor from a program perspective.

So your non-problem is self-correcting.

Again, only part of the problem surfaces at local squadrons (inappropriate fraternization); the other major venue is overnight activities, especially encampments, which often do have a very mixed age group of cadet participants, often with older ones in key leadership roles.

And these problems are what exactly (other than big words)?

I personally have never seen anything related to age, except lack of appropriate maturity or performance at grade level.  The cadets I know that stay in over 18 and participate as staff usually have their eye on a CAP goal and want to give back to the program.

[tsrup]

The majority of our cadet membership joins between 12 & 15, and the numbers of cadets who are in unit leadership positions past 18 is so small as to be a non-factor from a program perspective.

So your non-problem is self-correcting.

Again, only part of the problem surfaces at local squadrons (inappropriate fraternization); the other major venue is overnight activities, especially encampments, which often do have a very mixed age group of cadet participants, often with older ones in key leadership roles.

And these problems are what exactly (other than big words)?

I personally have never seen anything related to age, except lack of appropriate maturity or performance at grade level.  The cadets I know that stay in over 18 and participate as staff usually have their eye on a CAP goal and want to give back to the program.

This about hits the nail on the head.  ^^^  :clap:

[ZigZag911]

The majority of our cadet membership joins between 12 & 15, and the numbers of cadets who are in unit leadership positions past 18 is so small as to be a non-factor from a program perspective.

So your non-problem is self-correcting.

Again, only part of the problem surfaces at local squadrons (inappropriate fraternization); the other major venue is overnight activities, especially encampments, which often do have a very mixed age group of cadet participants, often with older ones in key leadership roles.

And these problems are what exactly (other than big words)?

Older teen (17 and up) male cadet officers getting personally involved with 14-15 year old female cadet airmen; older cadet officers (male and female) having unreasonable expectations of 12-13 year olds' capabilities, putting extreme pressure on them to the point of hazing or emotional abuse...I could go on.

I saw more than one instance of both these problems.

When I was group CC, I addressed them; some of my squadron CCs were not too happy with me, but wing CC & IG gave full support & encouragement,

My point is that these sort of things will happen when you mix young people of widely differing age/maturity together: it's part of the reason  why we separate high school from junior high, why Boy & Girl Scouting have various age level programs, why sports programs for youth divide on a basis of age.

BTW, whoever is under the impression that the cadet program has not changed in "65+ years" does  not know CAP history too well!

[Ned]

Older teen (17 and up) male cadet officers getting personally involved with 14-15 year old female cadet airmen; older cadet officers (male and female) having unreasonable expectations of 12-13 year olds' capabilities, putting extreme pressure on them to the point of hazing or emotional abuse...I could go on.

I saw more than one instance of both these problems.

These are leadership problems that should be (and are) routinely addressed by our adult leaders with a liberal application of mentoring, counseling, and common sense.

After all, we have had senior members "get personally involved" with younger female cadets.  And seniors have - on occasions - had unreasonable expectations of cadets since the program was founded.  The point is that there is no magic age separation that will effortlessly let us avoid problems. 

That's why we have trained adult leaders at every single cadet activity.  Leaders who will immediately and fearlessly step in when they see inappropriate relationships and poor leadership.

As we have successfully done for over 60 years.

Ned Lee
NHQ CP Guy

[tsrup]

The majority of our cadet membership joins between 12 & 15, and the numbers of cadets who are in unit leadership positions past 18 is so small as to be a non-factor from a program perspective.

So your non-problem is self-correcting.

Again, only part of the problem surfaces at local squadrons (inappropriate fraternization); the other major venue is overnight activities, especially encampments, which often do have a very mixed age group of cadet participants, often with older ones in key leadership roles.

And these problems are what exactly (other than big words)?

Older teen (17 and up) male cadet officers getting personally involved with 14-15 year old female cadet airmen; older cadet officers (male and female) having unreasonable expectations of 12-13 year olds' capabilities, putting extreme pressure on them to the point of hazing or emotional abuse...I could go on.

These are both topics that should be addressed through proper leadership education. 

Our Leadership training is designed to help cadets recognize and overcome these common leadership mistakes.  If they are falling in to them then it is a sign that they are not being properly taught.  This is where the DCC has to step in when the C/Commander is making the schedule and make sure Leadership is being taught properly, or this is an excellent topic for discussion during the required Character Development. 

There is no problem with the program in it's current form and it is even designed to keep these things from happening, but as with most things in CAP, people are just failing to follow the regs.

  For every cadet doing it wrong, there are hundreds doing it right.

[ZigZag911]

Respectfully, Ned & tsrup, my perspective is that these are not simply isolated incidents, but rather rooted in the way we have CAP organized. bear in mind, the lower age limit has varied significantly over the years...if I recall correctly, during World War 2 cadet membership was only available to 15-16 year olds.

While I agree that resolving, and, to some degree, avoiding, these problems is a leadership issue, I still feel that an ounce of prevention could help us dodge the bullet of a very expensive cure in the event of litigation, or even meaningful negative publicity for CAP.

[Eclipse]

Respectfully, Ned & tsrup, my perspective is that these are not simply isolated incidents...

What, aren't isolated incidents?

[Nathan]

Respectfully, Ned & tsrup, my perspective is that these are not simply isolated incidents, but rather rooted in the way we have CAP organized. bear in mind, the lower age limit has varied significantly over the years...if I recall correctly, during World War 2 cadet membership was only available to 15-16 year olds.

While I agree that resolving, and, to some degree, avoiding, these problems is a leadership issue, I still feel that an ounce of prevention could help us dodge the bullet of a very expensive cure in the event of litigation, or even meaningful negative publicity for CAP.

I don't think it just an "ounce of prevention", though. Separating the program like that would put a pretty big strain on program resources.

I understand the need to prevent issues, but doing so through such a dramatic change in program dynamics would probably do more harm than good, and that's coming from a guy that has suggested some pretty dramatic program changes before as serious alternatives to what we have.

If nothing else, you can keep in mind that many squadrons have maybe 5-10 cadets. Dividing the program is going to put even LESS cadets into any given group. No cadet is going to want to leave a program where he interacts with 12 younger cadets to work a program where there is only one other cadet in his age group. We may be able to build numbers up with a new recruiting plan, but the shot we would take in numbers would be tremendous, and we possibly may not recover from it in the older age group.

And remember that while younger cadets may not initially relate to older cadets, the point is to get the younger cadets to mature through imitation. I joined as an immature 14 year old, and my leaders were 19 year old C/Capts who were pretty mature, calm, and helped me form myself as a leader later on. If I had just been following other immature 14-16 year old cadets (who had followed immature cadets before them...), then we wouldn't get anywhere till I got to sit at the big kid's table. That sort of a system advances cadets in maturity no more than the transition from middle school to high school does.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Older teen (17 and up) male cadet officers getting personally involved with 14-15 year old female cadet airmen; older cadet officers (male and female) having unreasonable expectations of 12-13 year olds' capabilities, putting extreme pressure on them to the point of hazing or emotional abuse...I could go on.

I've seen more of this issue with hardkewl 15 year old Sgts when training 12 year old airmen.
I've seen the problems you mention between 16 year old cadets and 14-15 year old females.
It's not a magic number in any sense of the word.

As someone who was a C/Commander at the age of 17, training cadets who were at least 2 years behind, with a female cadet at 14-15 years old, I take offense to that generalized lumping. 

First of all, I had a strict personal policy of not dating any cadet, older/younger, in my unit/other unit.

Second, I never even thought of a younger cadet as a potential relationship. I was 17, my friends were 17, my interests were also 17.

As others mentioned, if it was a big issue in your Group, then the issue must not have been addressed at the local level. Relationships should not be developing at CAP, they should be an outside activity, which means it is the parents responsibility. If the 14 year old's parents let her date a 17 year old cadet officer, that is their choice. But that relationship does not develop/show up during a CAP activity, because if it did, the older cadet got a talking to.

[coolkites]

As a cadet in a large squadron (~25~ cadets +30ish seniors) I have never once seen age as an issue. Our cadet commander is 18. Our youngest cadets are 12. Once again no problems. Personally I feel that thats just how the system works and indeed it does work. The younger cadets may be able to relate better with younger cadets in general but when you are in CAP you are part of a unifying organization that as stated earlier makes age irrelevant. As a member of the BSA as well I basically see the exact same thing, when you have a team that works together age is a non issue. Senior members can say what they think (and it does have value but you cannot say from your perspective what cadets think and feel) but this has been my 3+ years of experience as a cadet with CAP.

[ZigZag911]

OK, well, my feeling for a long time has been everyone should be a senior at 18...which would have affected me all those years ago WIWAC too, so I understand the broad disagreement with that view...most of the 'evidence' on both sides is anecdotal, so I suggest we agree to disagree on this one...I recognize I am in the minority on this one.

[Nathan]

OK, well, my feeling for a long time has been everyone should be a senior at 18...which would have affected me all those years ago WIWAC too, so I understand the broad disagreement with that view...most of the 'evidence' on both sides is anecdotal, so I suggest we agree to disagree on this one...I recognize I am in the minority on this one.

It would make it extremely difficult for most people to complete the program. I joined at 14, and didn't get my Spaatz until I was 20. I suppose I could have shaved a year or so off if I had burned through the program at the fastest pace possible, but that sort of defeats the point of even having a rank if your only goal is to promote. 5-6 years for the Spaatz is not a bad pace, and an 18 year old age cap would make life difficult for most cadets who are trying to attain it.

[BillB]

Nathan  There would not be a problem with an 18 year old cap if there was a transition program that would allow continued achievements to be completed while still allowing Senior level Professional Development. That was the problem with the old tranition program it didn't allow a member to atempt to earn the Spaatz. A program for 18-21 year olds that allowed progression through cadet milestones while transitioning to senior membership would solve the problem.

[Ned]

That was the problem with the old tranition program it didn't allow a member to atempt to earn the Spaatz.

Bill,

While I concur there were problems with the old ACT/STP programs, but this wasn't one of them.

My lovely wife earned her Spaatz (#235) while participating in the ACT program.

Somebody must have a copy of the old reg to show this was possible (and encouraged.)

[Nathan]

Nathan  There would not be a problem with an 18 year old cap if there was a transition program that would allow continued achievements to be completed while still allowing Senior level Professional Development. That was the problem with the old tranition program it didn't allow a member to atempt to earn the Spaatz. A program for 18-21 year olds that allowed progression through cadet milestones while transitioning to senior membership would solve the problem.

Erm, I don't think that would solve any problem. The reason people should get the Spaatz has very little to do with the award itself, and has a lot more to do with the experience that one goes through on the way. While many of the lessons learned on the way to the Spaatz are designed to be applicable to the real world, the cadet environment is designed to allow for practice of these specific skills. The senior environment is not.

For instance, the Spaatz exam does cover some drill stuff. Most senior members don't even know how to do an about face, let alone the proper procedure for calling mass commands. The Spaatz exam teaches cadets skills for running a staff meeting approximately around the rank at which they should have a higher cadet position. Many senior members will not have the opportunity to run a staff meeting until they are a squadron commander. Cadets are taught specific counseling techniques, especially as they apply to teenagers, but most senior member jobs do not provide opportunities to counsel other members. Many of the cadet officer skill sets are designed to teach cadets how to handle organizing massive, encampment-sized groups of people, which the vast majority of senior members will never command.

The cadet environment is shaped in order to provide cadets an opportunity to practice the skills we want to teach them, and the senior member side of the program is designed more to complete a mission, not so much to provide a training ground. Telling cadets that they could earn the Spaatz award as a senior member is like telling a law student that they could earn a medical degree by taking all the med school tests from home without actually having the opportunity to practice the skills.

[ZigZag911]

If the Spaatz (or Spaatz & Eaker) were moved to the 18-21 range (for simplicity let's call them 'officer candidates') then of course there would need to be some adaptations to the program.

For instance, staff service for these awards might be in a senior staff position at squadron level, or as an assistant at group/wing/region.

Certain higher level posts in cadet program (e.g., drill team CC, cadet encampment CC/XO etc) might be designated for "transitioners"...possibly as a service requirement to encourage participation.

Details can be resolved; first step would be to look at optional ACT program established in the 70s, start from there.

[Nathan]

Certain higher level posts in cadet program (e.g., drill team CC, cadet encampment CC/XO etc) might be designated for "transitioners"...possibly as a service requirement to encourage participation.

So you would want to put senior members in cadet positions, doing cadet duties, instead of regular cadets?

I think there are some issues with the age gap, but I see things being a lot easier to adjust when we stick the age cap at 21, not 18 (assuming we need to change things at all).

[TexasBirdGirl]

From my humble experience the age gap can be quite difficult to deal with. Most posts here seem to assume that a C/AB is 12 and a Cadet Officers are all much older. Not always the case. It is not unusual to have people join CAP at age 16 or 17, and I have had 14 year old Cadet Officers.

We try to get around the difficulty with mentorship, but it is not always a piece of cake. Maybe in smaller units, it is not such a big deal, I do not know.

[Flying Pig]

I have absolutely NO data on this, but I would say the number of cadets who stay in past 18-19 yrs old is probably pretty small.  I think it sets good role models for the younger ones to see older cadets.  As soon as you turn senior, I think you instantly take on a parent role, even if you an 18yr old Flight Officer.

[ZigZag911]

Again, the maturity difference between a 12-13 y.o. and a 16-17 y.o. can be vast.

[jimmydeanno]

Again, the maturity difference between a 12-13 y.o. and a 16-17 y.o. can be vast.

...or, non-existent

[ZigZag911]

And, admittedly, either one can bite a squadron commander in the posterior if proper supervision is not exercised!

[Майор Хаткевич]

I have absolutely NO data on this, but I would say the number of cadets who stay in past 18-19 yrs old is probably pretty small.  I think it sets good role models for the younger ones to see older cadets.  As soon as you turn senior, I think you instantly take on a parent role, even if you an 18yr old Flight Officer.

1,624 Total @ 18 = 6.84%
714 Total @ 19 = 3.01%
391 Total @ 20 = 1.65%

Yay for being in the 1.65% and the 3.90% Earhart number!

http://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/Stats_C091196AC47C8.pdf

[Eagle400]

As to my original proposal...

I didn't factor in the need for having twice as many CP personnel to supervise both programs (among other potential issues).  That would be a fail, for sure.   

Lack of progression would be another issue.  A cadet would serve from age 12 to 16 in one program... and then bang he's 17, and would have to to start all over.   

Oh yeah... and the 52-16 would have to be rewritten more than it has been already.  This comes from a guy who went through Levels I and II under the 50-16, and jumped from C/MSgt to Mitchell during the transition.       

All things considered, the program currently in place is a million times better than what I've proposed.

Thanks for your feedback everyone.