Because an E-8 is always a horrible leader until he goes to those schools.
[/quote]

How is an E-8 a horrible leader? One of the best leaders I know is an E-8.

JArvey, please re-tune your sarcasm meter, it's faulty, Dak said this earlier.

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 17, 2010, 06:32:53 AMIf cadets aren't likely to come across that kind of leadership through out the cadet program already, then why is it a requirement to go to the school to promote?

So they can be exposed to it and then be able to apply it out in the "real world" environment

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 17, 2010, 06:32:53 AM
Sure, cadets can go to the school before Major, but what about cadets that go even once they get to Captain? Should they not already know how to be great leaders by then? If not, then they shouldn't have been promoted in the first place...

Depends on your definition of a great leader.  I tend to promote based on core competencies, like the ones listed in CAPR 52-16 page 29, except they call them Leadership Expectations.


I also expect a "great" leader to try and develop their skills and knowledge at every possible venue, to include attending COS/RCLS among other activities.

From your cadet oath:

Quote
continue my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation.

Regardless of whether or not you experience the exact situations taught at a school, the purpose of the cadet program isn't to teach you how to be a good cadet.  It is to prepare you to be a good leader once you aren't a cadet anymore.

And as for the "white-wash answers" I think you should re-read through the thread and check, because there are some very concrete reasons why these schools exist.  You aren't getting the "because that's the way it's always been" answers, because it isn't the way it's always been.  COS is really only about 10 years old, in it's current incarnation, and RCLS is less than 10 years old.  As a requirement for the Eaker, it's even less, because the Eaker is a fairly new award.

Either way, I really don't think that you are going to change your mind, regardless of what we tell you, because you are allowing your youthful ignorance to get in the way.  I would think that a thread full of responses from people who have graduated from COS, teach at COS, have earned the Eaker Award, etc would have been able to at least give you some perspective as to the importance of continuing your leadership education, but it appears that you are just more concerned about proving how un-needed it is.

Eaker #1024
COS Class of 1999
COS Seminar Advisor 2010

I never said it was "un-needed". I'm sure the schools are great! I've never been to them, and this will be my last summer as a cadet, so I don't plan on going to them either way.

Even if "it's only10 years old" that has nothing to do with it. Something can be outdated within 5 years.
I'm not saying the schools themsleves are out dated, but the requirement for the Eaker is.

as far as my "youthful ingorance", I've talked with many Sr. about this, and ones that have looked at this topic. They still agree with me. I guess those 45+ year old people need to grow up as well?

Contunuiting leadership is always the best practice. But I still believe that it as a requirement is wrong. Or we need at least a few more options instead of just two schools...

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 18, 2010, 12:23:29 AM
Or we need at least a few more options instead of just two schools...

Have any suggestions?

Perhaps executive staff at an encampment with some requirements for participation in planning, mentoring and providing leadership at the encampment, signed off by the encampment commander that the requirements have been met?  I can't think of another comparable experience that I had as a cadet.  Perhaps CAC officer for a year with certain stipulations about what activities needed to take place for the CAC showing that it was effective and that the cadet was truly active in CAC and contributing consistently.

It's kind of geeky-cool that I'm Eaker number 127.  The timing just worked out that it was added as an award just as I finished the program.

Quote from: Ron1319 on December 18, 2010, 12:56:38 AM
Perhaps executive staff at an encampment with some requirements for participation in planning, mentoring and providing leadership at the encampment, signed off by the encampment commander that the requirements have been met?  I can't think of another comparable experience that I had as a cadet.  Perhaps CAC officer for a year with certain stipulations about what activities needed to take place for the CAC showing that it was effective and that the cadet was truly active in CAC and contributing consistently.

It's kind of geeky-cool that I'm Eaker number 127.  The timing just worked out that it was added as an award just as I finished the program.

I was thinking along the same lines. Say up staff at encampments. C/CDC C/CC C/XO or other high ranking positions to be signed off by the encampment CC.

CAC Chairman or Vice. But have to achive something through that year. Signed off by the DCP.

Another test? It should cover both Sr and cdet jobs and what is expected out of each. Of course that's just a rough idea...

How about C/CC of an RCLS?

Oh, wait...

Quote from: DakRadz on December 18, 2010, 03:35:39 AM
How about C/CC of an RCLS?

Oh, wait...

lol. 

Quote from: Cool Mace on December 18, 2010, 01:29:56 AM

Quote from: Ron1319 on December 18, 2010, 12:56:38 AM
Perhaps executive staff at an encampment with some requirements for participation in planning, mentoring and providing leadership at the encampment, signed off by the encampment commander that the requirements have been met?  I can't think of another comparable experience that I had as a cadet.  Perhaps CAC officer for a year with certain stipulations about what activities needed to take place for the CAC showing that it was effective and that the cadet was truly active in CAC and contributing consistently.

It's kind of geeky-cool that I'm Eaker number 127.  The timing just worked out that it was added as an award just as I finished the program.

I was thinking along the same lines. Say up staff at encampments. C/CDC C/CC C/XO or other high ranking positions to be signed off by the encampment CC.

CAC Chairman or Vice. But have to achive something through that year. Signed off by the DCP.

Another test? It should cover both Sr and cdet jobs and what is expected out of each. Of course that's just a rough idea...

A cadet would be that much more suited to an exec position at encampment after having graduated from a leadership school, wouldn't you think? Especially one that placed emphasis on thinking and planning strategically, problem solving, leadership theory and team dynamics?

Like, say, COS?

You obviously have your mind rather firmly made up, but in my time as a CAP member, all of the really great cadet leaders I have known were COS grads, and many of them had gone to or staffed an RCLS as well. Those schools serve a very important purpose in the later part of the CP leadership curriculum. Staffing an encampment won't replace them.

Quote from: DakRadz on December 18, 2010, 03:35:39 AM
How about C/CC of an RCLS?

Oh, wait...

Lol! Thanks Radz!

So...should RCLS students be treated like cadets at an encampment or like officers at any other activity?  Whats the consensus out there?   

Quote from: noodles on December 19, 2010, 02:32:30 PM
So...should RCLS students be treated like cadets at an encampment or like officers at any other activity?  Whats the consensus out there?   

Neither it should be a relaxed environment in my opinion. I have heard of many Cadet Colonels enlisting and failing miserably because there not used to being yelled at or doing so much drill and PT.

Quote from: noodles on December 19, 2010, 02:32:30 PM
So...should RCLS students be treated like cadets at an encampment or like officers at any other activity?  Whats the consensus out there?   

RCLS and COS are academic learning environments. They have a very different purpose from encampment and should not be treated as such. The relaxed environment requires cadets attending to be mature, responsible and to manage their own time; probably one of the reasons there is an age limit applied to COS and many RCLSs.

A C/Col failing basic training did not fail because he was not used to getting yelled at, drilling or doing PT. The thousands of plain ol', non-CAP trained civilians that enlist every year have even less practice at that stuff than the CAP cadet, but they still manage just fine.

Quote from: JArvey on December 19, 2010, 03:17:02 PM

Quote from: noodles on December 19, 2010, 02:32:30 PM
So...should RCLS students be treated like cadets at an encampment or like officers at any other activity?  Whats the consensus out there?   

Neither it should be a relaxed environment in my opinion. I have heard of many Cadet Colonels enlisting and failing miserably because there not used to being yelled at or doing so much drill and PT.

Really, now? Do you have any evidence?

I have a hard time believing that MANY of them have done this. And I've seen no proof.

Also, see the last two sentences of DC's post.

Interesting old wives tale.

I know several Spaatzen who did extremely well at academies and I don't recall ever meeting one who enlisted, much less dropped out of basic.

On the other hand if I had shown up at an RCLS and had some kid or overzealous senior yelling at me for no reason I would have said goodbye, walked to my car, driven home and called the wing commander more than likely.

Quote from: Ron1319 on December 19, 2010, 06:00:36 PM
I know several Spaatzen who did extremely well at academies and I don't recall ever meeting one who enlisted, much less dropped out of basic.

Despite not meeting in person, you can add one to your list of those you have "met" that are enlisting.

I'd be glad to report my progress on refuting that old wives tale come 1 Feb - 3 Apr (approximately).

I expect you'll make it thru basic training.   

Quote from: noodles on December 19, 2010, 02:32:30 PM
So...should RCLS students be treated like cadets at an encampment or like officers at any other activity?  Whats the consensus out there?   

No,  it is like comparing apples and oranges.  Two completely different activities with very different goals and expectations.

Quote from: DakRadz on December 19, 2010, 04:28:37 PM

Quote from: JArvey on December 19, 2010, 03:17:02 PM

Quote from: noodles on December 19, 2010, 02:32:30 PM
So...should RCLS students be treated like cadets at an encampment or like officers at any other activity?  Whats the consensus out there?   

Neither it should be a relaxed environment in my opinion. I have heard of many Cadet Colonels enlisting and failing miserably because there not used to being yelled at or doing so much drill and PT.

Really, now? Do you have any evidence?

I have a hard time believing that MANY of them have done this. And I've seen no proof.

Also, see the last two sentences of DC's post.

Evidence? No, he told me himself