Quote from: JC004 on May 27, 2010, 08:09:57 PMThe programs you mention have the numbers to do that, obviously.  Plus, they have different programs to them.  I just have no idea what variations we'd have in CAP if there were two programs.

Me neither; that's why I posted the idea here, for discussion.

Quote from: JC004 on May 27, 2010, 08:09:57 PMIt feels like Smitty is suggesting that we just split them for age and have the same program.

Correct, Sir.

However, the consensus of the majority (here) is that separating cadets by age would be a bad idea, no matter what form it would take. 

For the moment, I tend to agree. 

And please keep in mind... that my experience is --on the one hand-- nothing to sneeze at... But also nothing to write home about either.  Bottom line: without folks to guide me, I'm like a lost sheep in the woods.       


Now then... one thing I can say, is that CAP cadet/composite squadrons tend to yield fewer cadets than the U.S. Navy Sea Cadet Corps units do. 

Why?

Because the USNSCC (at least it my backyard) devotes one weekend a month for cadet training; no weekly meetings for the cadets.  And there are a lot more youths available for 2 days a month vs. 3-4 hours a week.

With that in mind: Perhaps if CAP also did the one weekend a month thing, then separation by age would be more appropriate? 

(Now realize: I do not agree with CAP going to 1 weekend a month in place of meeting 3-4 hrs. a week... Rather, I'm trying to figure out why age separation is more appropriate for the USNSCC, than for CAP).   

And just to reiterate... For the moment, I tend to agree with those who feel separation by age is a bad idea for CAP. 

Thank you kindly. 

I was not advocating a program like this....I was just wondering if the OP had any follow up to his supposed problem.

One of the fustrating problems here on CT is that too many people just say "Well there ought to be something different/better/easier/what ever"....but they themselves have no idea what that something should be.

This is not just with the age gap....and you all know my opinion about that.....but also go to the Vanguard monopoly, ES training, promotion systems, uniforms/bling/pink tutus.

So...Custer....you got any ideas?  Do you have any thing more then "let's speperate the old cadets from the young cadets"?  I really would like to know.....heck you migh just have something that could work.

(Now that I got it in the right thread) 

Quote from: lordmonar on May 28, 2010, 12:04:02 AM
I was not advocating a program like this....I was just wondering if the OP had any follow up to his supposed problem.

One of the fustrating problems here on CT is that too many people just say "Well there ought to be something different/better/easier/what ever"....but they themselves have no idea what that something should be.

This is not just with the age gap....and you all know my opinion about that.....but also go to the Vanguard monopoly, ES training, promotion systems, uniforms/bling/pink tutus.

So...Custer....you got any ideas?  Do you have any thing more then "let's speperate the old cadets from the young cadets"?  I really would like to know.....heck you migh just have something that could work.

(Now that I got it in the right thread) 

I guess the only solution that's viable (and workable)... is to change the minimum cadet age from 12 to 15. 

I know when I joined at 12, I certainly wasn't ready to deal with 18, 19 and 20 year olds above me.  Same deal outside of CAP, too. 

Apart from upping the minimum age for joining, I'm out of ideas.   

Quote from: CCSE on June 18, 2010, 07:33:05 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on May 28, 2010, 12:04:02 AM
I was not advocating a program like this....I was just wondering if the OP had any follow up to his supposed problem.

One of the fustrating problems here on CT is that too many people just say "Well there ought to be something different/better/easier/what ever"....but they themselves have no idea what that something should be.

This is not just with the age gap....and you all know my opinion about that.....but also go to the Vanguard monopoly, ES training, promotion systems, uniforms/bling/pink tutus.

So...Custer....you got any ideas?  Do you have any thing more then "let's speperate the old cadets from the young cadets"?  I really would like to know.....heck you migh just have something that could work.

(Now that I got it in the right thread) 

I guess the only solution that's viable (and workable)... is to change the minimum cadet age from 12 to 15. 

I know when I joined at 12, I certainly wasn't ready to deal with 18, 19 and 20 year olds above me.  Same deal outside of CAP, too. 

Apart from upping the minimum age for joining, I'm out of ideas.   

Here's one. Instead of changing a 65+ year old program that has never really had an age problem before, leave it be and try not to revise the whole cadet program. If it worked back in the '40s, it'll work now.

The majority of our cadet membership joins between 12 & 15, and the numbers of cadets who are in unit leadership positions past 18 is so small as to be a non-factor from a program perspective.

So your non-problem is self-correcting.

Quote from: HGjunkie on June 18, 2010, 07:35:56 PM
Here's one. Instead of changing a 65+ year old program that has never really had an age problem before, leave it be and try not to revise the whole cadet program. If it worked back in the '40s, it'll work now.

The cadet program ages have changed numerous times since our inception.  IIRC, the first cadets were ages 15-17.  Then the "Jack Sorenson" version of the cadet program came around and the ages changed again.

Then the "12 or in the 6th grade" rule came in, allowing 10 year olds who are homeschooled to come in.

Then it was changed back to 12.

So there has been a lot of modification to the "65+ year old program that has never had an age issue before."  Just sayin.

The same age gap dynamic exisits, to a certain extent, in the BSA as well.  Somehow they seem to be able to cope.

Quote from: Eclipse on June 18, 2010, 07:36:32 PM
The majority of our cadet membership joins between 12 & 15, and the numbers of cadets who are in unit leadership positions past 18 is so small as to be a non-factor from a program perspective.

So your non-problem is self-correcting.

Again, only part of the problem surfaces at local squadrons (inappropriate fraternization); the other major venue is overnight activities, especially encampments, which often do have a very mixed age group of cadet participants, often with older ones in key leadership roles.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 18, 2010, 09:34:20 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on June 18, 2010, 07:36:32 PM
The majority of our cadet membership joins between 12 & 15, and the numbers of cadets who are in unit leadership positions past 18 is so small as to be a non-factor from a program perspective.

So your non-problem is self-correcting.

Again, only part of the problem surfaces at local squadrons (inappropriate fraternization); the other major venue is overnight activities, especially encampments, which often do have a very mixed age group of cadet participants, often with older ones in key leadership roles.

And these problems are what exactly (other than big words)?

Quote from: tsrup on June 18, 2010, 09:52:51 PM

Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 18, 2010, 09:34:20 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on June 18, 2010, 07:36:32 PM
The majority of our cadet membership joins between 12 & 15, and the numbers of cadets who are in unit leadership positions past 18 is so small as to be a non-factor from a program perspective.

So your non-problem is self-correcting.

Again, only part of the problem surfaces at local squadrons (inappropriate fraternization); the other major venue is overnight activities, especially encampments, which often do have a very mixed age group of cadet participants, often with older ones in key leadership roles.

And these problems are what exactly (other than big words)?

I personally have never seen anything related to age, except lack of appropriate maturity or performance at grade level.  The cadets I know that stay in over 18 and participate as staff usually have their eye on a CAP goal and want to give back to the program.

Quote from: Eclipse on June 18, 2010, 09:54:48 PM

Quote from: tsrup on June 18, 2010, 09:52:51 PM

Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 18, 2010, 09:34:20 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on June 18, 2010, 07:36:32 PM
The majority of our cadet membership joins between 12 & 15, and the numbers of cadets who are in unit leadership positions past 18 is so small as to be a non-factor from a program perspective.

So your non-problem is self-correcting.

Again, only part of the problem surfaces at local squadrons (inappropriate fraternization); the other major venue is overnight activities, especially encampments, which often do have a very mixed age group of cadet participants, often with older ones in key leadership roles.

And these problems are what exactly (other than big words)?

I personally have never seen anything related to age, except lack of appropriate maturity or performance at grade level.  The cadets I know that stay in over 18 and participate as staff usually have their eye on a CAP goal and want to give back to the program.

This about hits the nail on the head.  ^^^  :clap:

Quote from: tsrup on June 18, 2010, 09:52:51 PM

Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 18, 2010, 09:34:20 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on June 18, 2010, 07:36:32 PM
The majority of our cadet membership joins between 12 & 15, and the numbers of cadets who are in unit leadership positions past 18 is so small as to be a non-factor from a program perspective.

So your non-problem is self-correcting.

Again, only part of the problem surfaces at local squadrons (inappropriate fraternization); the other major venue is overnight activities, especially encampments, which often do have a very mixed age group of cadet participants, often with older ones in key leadership roles.

And these problems are what exactly (other than big words)?

Older teen (17 and up) male cadet officers getting personally involved with 14-15 year old female cadet airmen; older cadet officers (male and female) having unreasonable expectations of 12-13 year olds' capabilities, putting extreme pressure on them to the point of hazing or emotional abuse...I could go on.

I saw more than one instance of both these problems.

When I was group CC, I addressed them; some of my squadron CCs were not too happy with me, but wing CC & IG gave full support & encouragement,

My point is that these sort of things will happen when you mix young people of widely differing age/maturity together: it's part of the reason  why we separate high school from junior high, why Boy & Girl Scouting have various age level programs, why sports programs for youth divide on a basis of age.

BTW, whoever is under the impression that the cadet program has not changed in "65+ years" does  not know CAP history too well!

Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 20, 2010, 08:28:36 PMOlder teen (17 and up) male cadet officers getting personally involved with 14-15 year old female cadet airmen; older cadet officers (male and female) having unreasonable expectations of 12-13 year olds' capabilities, putting extreme pressure on them to the point of hazing or emotional abuse...I could go on.

I saw more than one instance of both these problems.

These are leadership problems that should be (and are) routinely addressed by our adult leaders with a liberal application of mentoring, counseling, and common sense.

After all, we have had senior members "get personally involved" with younger female cadets.  And seniors have - on occasions - had unreasonable expectations of cadets since the program was founded.  The point is that there is no magic age separation that will effortlessly let us avoid problems. 

That's why we have trained adult leaders at every single cadet activity.  Leaders who will immediately and fearlessly step in when they see inappropriate relationships and poor leadership.

As we have successfully done for over 60 years.

Ned Lee
NHQ CP Guy

Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 20, 2010, 08:28:36 PM

Quote from: tsrup on June 18, 2010, 09:52:51 PM

Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 18, 2010, 09:34:20 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on June 18, 2010, 07:36:32 PM
The majority of our cadet membership joins between 12 & 15, and the numbers of cadets who are in unit leadership positions past 18 is so small as to be a non-factor from a program perspective.

So your non-problem is self-correcting.

Again, only part of the problem surfaces at local squadrons (inappropriate fraternization); the other major venue is overnight activities, especially encampments, which often do have a very mixed age group of cadet participants, often with older ones in key leadership roles.

And these problems are what exactly (other than big words)?

Older teen (17 and up) male cadet officers getting personally involved with 14-15 year old female cadet airmen; older cadet officers (male and female) having unreasonable expectations of 12-13 year olds' capabilities, putting extreme pressure on them to the point of hazing or emotional abuse...I could go on.

These are both topics that should be addressed through proper leadership education. 

Our Leadership training is designed to help cadets recognize and overcome these common leadership mistakes.  If they are falling in to them then it is a sign that they are not being properly taught.  This is where the DCC has to step in when the C/Commander is making the schedule and make sure Leadership is being taught properly, or this is an excellent topic for discussion during the required Character Development. 

There is no problem with the program in it's current form and it is even designed to keep these things from happening, but as with most things in CAP, people are just failing to follow the regs.

  For every cadet doing it wrong, there are hundreds doing it right.

Respectfully, Ned & tsrup, my perspective is that these are not simply isolated incidents, but rather rooted in the way we have CAP organized. bear in mind, the lower age limit has varied significantly over the years...if I recall correctly, during World War 2 cadet membership was only available to 15-16 year olds.

While I agree that resolving, and, to some degree, avoiding, these problems is a leadership issue, I still feel that an ounce of prevention could help us dodge the bullet of a very expensive cure in the event of litigation, or even meaningful negative publicity for CAP.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 21, 2010, 06:16:26 PM
Respectfully, Ned & tsrup, my perspective is that these are not simply isolated incidents...

What, aren't isolated incidents?

Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 21, 2010, 06:16:26 PM
Respectfully, Ned & tsrup, my perspective is that these are not simply isolated incidents, but rather rooted in the way we have CAP organized. bear in mind, the lower age limit has varied significantly over the years...if I recall correctly, during World War 2 cadet membership was only available to 15-16 year olds.

While I agree that resolving, and, to some degree, avoiding, these problems is a leadership issue, I still feel that an ounce of prevention could help us dodge the bullet of a very expensive cure in the event of litigation, or even meaningful negative publicity for CAP.

I don't think it just an "ounce of prevention", though. Separating the program like that would put a pretty big strain on program resources.

I understand the need to prevent issues, but doing so through such a dramatic change in program dynamics would probably do more harm than good, and that's coming from a guy that has suggested some pretty dramatic program changes before as serious alternatives to what we have.

If nothing else, you can keep in mind that many squadrons have maybe 5-10 cadets. Dividing the program is going to put even LESS cadets into any given group. No cadet is going to want to leave a program where he interacts with 12 younger cadets to work a program where there is only one other cadet in his age group. We may be able to build numbers up with a new recruiting plan, but the shot we would take in numbers would be tremendous, and we possibly may not recover from it in the older age group.

And remember that while younger cadets may not initially relate to older cadets, the point is to get the younger cadets to mature through imitation. I joined as an immature 14 year old, and my leaders were 19 year old C/Capts who were pretty mature, calm, and helped me form myself as a leader later on. If I had just been following other immature 14-16 year old cadets (who had followed immature cadets before them...), then we wouldn't get anywhere till I got to sit at the big kid's table. That sort of a system advances cadets in maturity no more than the transition from middle school to high school does.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 20, 2010, 08:28:36 PM
Older teen (17 and up) male cadet officers getting personally involved with 14-15 year old female cadet airmen; older cadet officers (male and female) having unreasonable expectations of 12-13 year olds' capabilities, putting extreme pressure on them to the point of hazing or emotional abuse...I could go on.

I've seen more of this issue with hardkewl 15 year old Sgts when training 12 year old airmen.
I've seen the problems you mention between 16 year old cadets and 14-15 year old females.
It's not a magic number in any sense of the word.

As someone who was a C/Commander at the age of 17, training cadets who were at least 2 years behind, with a female cadet at 14-15 years old, I take offense to that generalized lumping. 

First of all, I had a strict personal policy of not dating any cadet, older/younger, in my unit/other unit.

Second, I never even thought of a younger cadet as a potential relationship. I was 17, my friends were 17, my interests were also 17.

As others mentioned, if it was a big issue in your Group, then the issue must not have been addressed at the local level. Relationships should not be developing at CAP, they should be an outside activity, which means it is the parents responsibility. If the 14 year old's parents let her date a 17 year old cadet officer, that is their choice. But that relationship does not develop/show up during a CAP activity, because if it did, the older cadet got a talking to.

As a cadet in a large squadron (~25~ cadets +30ish seniors) I have never once seen age as an issue. Our cadet commander is 18. Our youngest cadets are 12. Once again no problems. Personally I feel that thats just how the system works and indeed it does work. The younger cadets may be able to relate better with younger cadets in general but when you are in CAP you are part of a unifying organization that as stated earlier makes age irrelevant. As a member of the BSA as well I basically see the exact same thing, when you have a team that works together age is a non issue. Senior members can say what they think (and it does have value but you cannot say from your perspective what cadets think and feel) but this has been my 3+ years of experience as a cadet with CAP.

OK, well, my feeling for a long time has been everyone should be a senior at 18...which would have affected me all those years ago WIWAC too, so I understand the broad disagreement with that view...most of the 'evidence' on both sides is anecdotal, so I suggest we agree to disagree on this one...I recognize I am in the minority on this one.