Cadet Conference Attendance Does Not Count Towards Level III

Started by Майор Хаткевич, August 15, 2013, 03:55:38 AM

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Майор Хаткевич

QuoteCaptain Hatkevich,
After conferring with Lt Col XXXX the Wing Assistant Chief of Staff for Personnel and Administration, any cadet conference attendance will not count for any senior member professional development awards.  Lt Col XXXX  contacted National Headquarters and was informed of this by Jennifer Carroll who is in charge of Professional Development Registrar, and Suzie Parker who is in charge Personnel and Member Actions.  If you require any additional information about this subject please let me know and I will do what I can to assist you in this matter.


Well, that's nice to know after the fact.  ::)

PHall

Did you just attend the conference or did you teach something or help run it?
If you did, ask again and make sure that they know you instructed, etc...

Майор Хаткевич

Level III requires 2 as attendee. Apparently CAP Inc staffers can make judgement calls, but we knew that. Was OK when I went, guess not so OK now.

SarDragon

I asked about this issue a while back (10+ years ago), and was told at that time that cadet attendance/participation at conferences did not count toward SM PD requirements.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

coudano

it really should just be changed to say something like "since completing level X (previous)", do x, y, and z
i think that's what it (common sense) means,
it just doesn't say it clearly

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: coudano on August 15, 2013, 05:14:11 AM
it really should just be changed to say something like "since completing level X (previous)", do x, y, and z
i think that's what it (common sense) means,
it just doesn't say it clearly

That would make sense. But that's not how the reg has it:

a2capt

That doesn't make any sense. One could certainly argue that attending a conference in the last 5 years, be it as a cadet in their last year before aging out, isn't any different than a senior member attending a conference 26 years ago, and finally getting around to completing Level III.

I'd certainly argue that the cadet attendance is certainly more relevant in that the sessions / topics / attended / discussed were certainly more relevant now.. unless perhaps the SM's specialty track is Historian? ;)

As similar, CAWG has a Cadet-centric conference in the early part of the year, that is pretty much a mirror image of the a-typical Wing Conference except that they will not accept it as PD credit. During one of the exchanges I got "it's cadet-centric, does not cover the whole spectrum" .. and I fired back with "..and the Region Aerospace Conference .. isn't singular-centric, or how about the ES conference events you all accept.."

Whatever.

Until it effects someone who has influence in the regulation, it'll probably stay in ambiguous limbo.

lordmonar

Why do we have this requirement again?

No seriously.

We are arguing about if attendance as a cadet counts or attendance 20 years ago counts......for what?   

What exactly does conference attendance accomplish?

What exactly is a conference?

What exactly counts as attendance?

I compare this to a cadet's requirement to attend an encampment.  We have a clear direction of what constitutes an encampment.  We have clear guidance of what attendance is.   We have fairly good idea of what we are trying to accomplish with requiring cadet attendance.

Why can't we get the same for a "conference"?
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Private Investigator

I do recall this being brought up 10+ years ago too. Does a Communications Conference count? It does for the Comm speciality track but not for SM PD?

The main reason Conferences exist besides a chance to connect with friends you only see yearly. Is to learn more about CAP. I have met people in CAP that is totally clueless about anything outside their little Squadron. Just recently I was out of state and I noted the Senior Members at a event wearing Wing patches on their USAF blue shirts and the Cadets were not wearing them. I was told Senior Members wear the patch and Cadets do not. So is that half wrong or half right?   ::)

EMT-83

Jennifer Carroll and Suzie Parker are great people, very helpful on a regular basis. They do not, however, carry any more weight than anyone else when interpreting regulations.

They issued an opinion last year that test logs must contain a "wet" signature, even though it is not required by regulation, which authorizes electronic logs. Their interpretation was not supported when the regulation was updated earlier this month.

As to conference attendance, the regulation is painfully clear and not subject to interpretation.

Майор Хаткевич

It is in my wing. Oh well. Not a big deal, Major is at least 2 years off, but its slightly frustrating.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: a2capt on August 15, 2013, 07:26:18 AM
That doesn't make any sense. One could certainly argue that attending a conference in the last 5 years, be it as a cadet in their last year before aging out, isn't any different than a senior member attending a conference 26 years ago, and finally getting around to completing Level III.

Well, true, and absurd. I think I can probably point a few fingers at some Spaatzen who hit Major without getting to two conferences between turning 21 and turning Major. Because for them "cadet attendance" was just fine. Same really goes for trying to swing some 30 + year old conference, where that's not an issue, but somehow being a cadet is.

Quote from: a2capt on August 15, 2013, 07:26:18 AM
I'd certainly argue that the cadet attendance is certainly more relevant in that the sessions / topics / attended / discussed were certainly more relevant now.. unless perhaps the SM's specialty track is Historian? ;)

A lot of the sessions are either CP or Cadet focused in the first place.

Quote from: a2capt on August 15, 2013, 07:26:18 AM
As similar, CAWG has a Cadet-centric conference in the early part of the year, that is pretty much a mirror image of the a-typical Wing Conference except that they will not accept it as PD credit. During one of the exchanges I got "it's cadet-centric, does not cover the whole spectrum" .. and I fired back with "..and the Region Aerospace Conference .. isn't singular-centric, or how about the ES conference events you all accept.."

That's the rub, eh? Nothing is mentioned about ES conferences, yet they get accepted.

Quote from: a2capt on August 15, 2013, 07:26:18 AM
Whatever.

True Dat.  :P

Quote from: a2capt on August 15, 2013, 07:26:18 AM
Until it effects someone who has influence in the regulation, it'll probably stay in ambiguous limbo.

Going to be hard to do in my case. Best case scenario, you're looking at a just turned 24 Spaatzen trying to get his Major on. While they may have some friends higher up, they probably don't have the pull to have enough of a racket made about it. Besides, as far as I'm aware, this is something that my wing decided to call NHQ staffers about, and now deems their word as gospel. YMMV.

lordmonar

Well.....what exactly is a conference?
We have a wing conference in NVWG every year.  It has a staff meeting, some break out sessions, some staff work shops and a dinner.
We also have two biannual staff meetings.....it has a staff meeting, some break out session, some staff work shops and a dinner.
So......it is just the name?

Do conferences have any required elements?  I know we all thing that conferences will have a staff meeting, some sort of ES/CP/AE break out sessions, a CAC meeting, Staff training, maybe a CLC or UCC or TLC....but what if it was just a Commander's call, vehicle inspection, and a dinner?
If we started calling our bi-annual staff meetings....as staff conference would that count?

Also....what exactly is attendance?

Jonny Newguy signs up for the conference....checks in Friday night...goes to the mixer.  Saturday he goes to the Opening Breakfast Meeting....then he goes to the pool until the awards banquet at 7p.m.  Departs early Sunday before the CC's Call because he's got work in the morning.

And that is attendance.   I know people who drove the cadets to the conference signed in, went skiing all day, attended the banquet and then drove the cadets home on Sunday......and that counted for attendance.

Again.....I hate the requirement to attend two "conferences' with out stating the purpose of attendance, defining what attend is, or defining what a conference is.


PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Майор Хаткевич

I agree. In fact, I literally had it brought up to me a day or so ago.

"Why don't you just pay for the one in December, and sign in on Saturday morning"?

This, because I was planning on attending, but it was the only week my wife could go on vacation. Unethical? Sure. Was it said in jest? Maybe only partially, because lets face it, some of the people I SAW at the conference that doesn't count for me, pretty much spent it at the hotel bar/pool/restaurant. But at least they will get the credit.


Maybe it's time to induce punch cards / sign in rosters, and require X amount of sessions to count. Not that it can't be pencil whipped.

a2capt

The conversation basically recaps what I brought up late last year:

What constitutes a Conference, and who says it is?

What I basically determined is, 1) there is no regulation or description anywhere. 2) If the Wing people need it to be a "Conference", they can give it the blessing and that's it.

..and in the end, it got shot down due to politics and a game of "take my ball and go home", over a pissing contest between the previous organizer not wanting a lick of anything to get out that might even possibly, remotely, help the current organizer.

Who suffers in the middle? Joe Member who faithfully, dutifully, volunteered and gets the Shaft in return.

How do we fix that?

Take care of your people when you work stuff. 

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=16443.msg297243#msg297243

Майор Хаткевич

What I'm getting right now is that conference > members. If the point is to network, then as a C/1st Lt at 16.5 I got to meet the current/future wing king, many group/wing staffers, cadets from the farther southern reaches of my state. I also sat in on some lackluster sessions. I'm going to assume that if I was to go again, I would experience just about the same situation.

MSG Mac

A number of good points have emerged from this discussion, much more than the usual CT post.

1. What constitutes a Wing/Region Conference?
2. Why don't Cadets and former Cadets get credit for attendance?
3. Since attendance is required, how do we track it? It's not carried on the STR, and I've never received any form of verification of attendance nor has anyone I know. Usually I take the member's word.

Simple fix: Amend The STR to add a space for Conference attendance. And 52-16 to require attendance at 1 conference prior to the Mitchell, and another for the Eaker award. Transferable upon achieving SM status.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

Phil Hirons, Jr.

I don't think mandating attendance for cadets is the answer.


Luis R. Ramos

No one has mandated any cadet attendance here. They are discussing that if any cadet attends, then it should transfer when the cadet becomes a senior.

Flyer
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

lordmonar

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 15, 2013, 06:44:09 PM
What I'm getting right now is that conference > members. If the point is to network, then as a C/1st Lt at 16.5 I got to meet the current/future wing king, many group/wing staffers, cadets from the farther southern reaches of my state. I also sat in on some lackluster sessions. I'm going to assume that if I was to go again, I would experience just about the same situation.
If the point is to network......why can't any Group or Wing level activity count?
If the point is to network.....see what happens beyond the squadron......why do Group and Wing STAFF MEMBERS need to do it?
If the point is to network and see what happens outside your little world.....why are not two regional conferences required for Level IV and Two National Conferences required for level V?

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Phil Hirons, Jr.

Quote from: flyer333555 on August 15, 2013, 07:00:04 PM
No one has mandated any cadet attendance here. They are discussing that if any cadet attends, then it should transfer when the cadet becomes a senior.

Flyer

Quote from: MSG Mac on August 15, 2013, 06:46:17 PM
Simple fix: Amend The STR to add a space for Conference attendance. And 52-16 to require attendance at 1 conference prior to the Mitchell, and another for the Eaker award. Transferable upon achieving SM status.

It was tacked on at the end.

Eclipse

The conferences are another hold-over from another era, and just as the trade show industry has shrunk significantly over the
last decade, Wing and even national conferences should probably also fade into history.

The internet has negated the need for "all-hands" seminars, and rarely is anything announced or presented "news".  If you're
sitting in a hotel banquet room and learn of something "exciting" that is news to you, you're either woefully disconnected or the
information is still wet because a decision was just made.  Anything else will just be a rehash.

The content for cadets is generally a time-wasting afterthought, which is why cadet participation generally needs to be at no cost. 
At the conferences I have attended, cadets were basically extra staff help and then had a 1/2-empty CAC meeting,
along with a commander's round table or similar.  I've got 14 years in and about 4-6 conferences and have yet to see
a cadet conference activity that was worth the bother, though frankly the senior ones are just as bad.  Nothing more fun then
teaching a uniform class to a roomful of field-grade officers.   BTDT.

In this case, however, and were I Comrade USAFAUX2004's commander, this conversation would not be closed.  Wings have been
selling these conferences to cadets for years under the guise that they count towards senior PD, at least they certainly have in my wing.
Further, the only reason the issue came up in the first place was because the wing in question has a history of not tracking
participants, so it was only when substantiation was requested that the question of whether the conference credit applied to
cadets was even asked, I guarantee you that if his name had already been on the roster, or he had a certificate in hand, this would
not have been an issue.

And the "answer" was an opinion of NHQ staffers who do not have the authority to make those decisions,
nor are they in the chain of command.  I don't understand why these questions are not forwarded to national volunteer staff and
commanders, as they are the only ones who actually have a say in the matter, but worse, the published verbiage clearly contradicts with this opinion.

If nothing else, NHQ needs to publish clear guidance on this and add a sentence that says cadet participation either does, or doesn't
count towards senior PD, and if it doesn't, then drop the ruse cadets should be involved and save everyone  a lot of time.

In regards to a mandated conference before Mitchell, that won't fly because it would be objected to on the grounds of it
becoming another gateway to Mitchell, however if that was put in place, then the credit should not transfer to senior PD, since
it would already have been used for cadet PD.  No double dipping allowed.


"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on August 15, 2013, 07:41:09 PM
In this case, however, and were I Comrade USAFAUX2004's commander, this conversation would not be closed. 

My CoC is aware of the situation, down to the OP email. Then again, from my very limited experience dealing with higher HQ above Group, this may be an exercise in Head-Meet-Wall Maneuvers.

a2capt

As for how is it tracked, generally a PA is put out that says "these people attended/participated/shot the manure..   or you get a certificate in the folder that you typically pick up at the beginning.. You then provide the chain with a copy of that whatever when filling out that form for Level III. Unless your Wing is the same as the conference and keeps all those PA's, so that a conference date provided on the form can be cross referenced.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on August 15, 2013, 07:41:09 PM
I don't understand why these questions are not forwarded to national volunteer staff and
commanders, as they are the only ones who actually have a say in the matter, but worse, the published verbiage clearly contradicts with this opinion.

There's always the "Ask the Commander" Button.  >:D

Would be a change from the ABU questions.  :angel:

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: a2capt on August 15, 2013, 08:29:45 PM
As for how is it tracked, generally a PA is put out that says "these people attended/participated/shot the manure..   or you get a certificate in the folder that you typically pick up at the beginning.. You then provide the chain with a copy of that whatever when filling out that form for Level III. Unless your Wing is the same as the conference and keeps all those PA's, so that a conference date provided on the form can be cross referenced.

PA compiled in 2012 for a 2006 conference. My name wasn't on the list.

Eclipse

Quote from: a2capt on August 15, 2013, 08:29:45 PM
As for how is it tracked, generally a PA is put out that says "these people attended/participated/shot the manure..   or you get a certificate in the folder that you typically pick up at the beginning.. You then provide the chain with a copy of that whatever when filling out that form for Level III. Unless your Wing is the same as the conference and keeps all those PA's, so that a conference date provided on the form can be cross referenced.

14 years, 5-6 conferences, including staff, never got one that I remember.  I had similar issues with my own substantiation with people insisting I wasn't there...until I produced a photo.

That was actually fun.

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Maybe when I make it to the next one, I'll be rocking a GoPro helmet cam.

a2capt

..and you registered, paid, and went in 2006? Like anyone else? That's just wrong.

CAWG has cadets listed on the PA. I've seen others, too.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: a2capt on August 15, 2013, 08:47:31 PM
..and you registered, paid, and went in 2006? Like anyone else? That's just wrong.

CAWG has cadets listed on the PA. I've seen others, too.

I did. Some Captain at my unit said it would be fun (liar!) And would count for SM PD down the road (heh). This all came up when I was looking for an old cadet buddy. Google brought up the list. He was listed, I wasnt.

RiverAux

The bigger issue is the apparent assumption that attendance at two conferences provides some sort of beneficial experience or training that has some relevance to the PD of a senior member.  That seems pretty questionable to me due to the lack of standards that lordmonar mentions. 

At least in my wing, the purpose of the wing conference seems to be to hand out awards and to find somebody to fill the other time with something that might be useful. 

I think the wing conference requirement should be dropped in favor of participation in and preferably passing some sort of test associated with some number of workshops (4 hour?  8 hour?) that do have specific training objectives.  These could be workshops with some sort of fixed content that doesn't change much year-to-year (some sort of leadership workshop, for example) or could be something that does tend to change (annual aircrew or ground team or comm or whatever workshops). 

Since this is part of the PD program, I'd lean towards making these workshops more PD than ES-related. 

Spaceman3750

Conferences are useful for connecting or reconnecting with members that I rarely see in person. It's pretty much the only reason I care, besides needing one more for Level 3.

ol'fido

As I've said in other threads, I think this was mandated in the days before e-mail, cell phones, the Internet(Al Gore hadn't got around to it), and when there was a lot less attendance at activities outside of the unit. Requiring  conference then was needed to make sure that members saw someone and learned something about the organization outside of their squadron or group.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

SarDragon

Quote from: MSG Mac on August 15, 2013, 06:46:17 PM

3. Since attendance is required, how do we track it? It's not carried on the STR, and I've never received any form of verification of attendance nor has anyone I know. Usually I take the member's word.

There's a place for them on CAPF 45. CAWG issues certificates or PAs to document attendance. I happened to go to my first two with my CC, so he personally did the F45 entries.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Phil Hirons, Jr.

My 2 conferences for Level III were 1 MAWG and 1 NER.

RIWG has not held a conference in this century.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: phirons on August 16, 2013, 01:41:23 PM
My 2 conferences for Level III were 1 MAWG and 1 NER.

RIWG has not held a conference in this century.

Yea, but your whole Wing is smaller than my Group.

Phil Hirons, Jr.

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 16, 2013, 02:29:57 PM
Quote from: phirons on August 16, 2013, 01:41:23 PM
My 2 conferences for Level III were 1 MAWG and 1 NER.

RIWG has not held a conference in this century.

Yea, but your whole Wing is smaller than my Group.

"If we weren't a state, we'd be a group."

Always thought we should add that to the Wing patch.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: phirons on August 16, 2013, 02:49:17 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 16, 2013, 02:29:57 PM
Quote from: phirons on August 16, 2013, 01:41:23 PM
My 2 conferences for Level III were 1 MAWG and 1 NER.

RIWG has not held a conference in this century.

Yea, but your whole Wing is smaller than my Group.

"If we weren't a state, we'd be a group."

Always thought we should add that to the Wing patch.

>:D


It's not the size that matters, ultimately.  >:D

Майор Хаткевич

Well,

The issue was brought up at Nat.Boards, and apparently the reg is poorly written. Substitute CAP Senior Members for CAP members, and you get the read folks higher up than I want.

MSG Mac

Quote from: phirons on August 16, 2013, 02:49:17 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 16, 2013, 02:29:57 PM
Quote from: phirons on August 16, 2013, 01:41:23 PM
My 2 conferences for Level III were 1 MAWG and 1 NER.

RIWG has not held a conference in this century.

Yea, but your whole Wing is smaller than my Group.

"If we weren't a state, we'd be a group."

Always thought we should add that to the Wing patch.

When I was in MAWG we used to refer to RI as our southernmost Group.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

Eclipse

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 16, 2013, 06:50:25 PM
Well,

The issue was brought up at Nat.Boards, and apparently the reg is poorly written. Substitute CAP Senior Members for CAP members, and you get the read folks higher up than I want.

So, does that mean that all promotions based on fraudulent 24's will now be reeled back in and the members down-leveled and demoted?

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on August 16, 2013, 07:11:32 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 16, 2013, 06:50:25 PM
Well,

The issue was brought up at Nat.Boards, and apparently the reg is poorly written. Substitute CAP Senior Members for CAP members, and you get the read folks higher up than I want.

So, does that mean that all promotions based on fraudulent 24's will now be reeled back in and the members down-leveled and demoted?

Heh. I bet you can start with many a Spaatz cadet.

ol'fido

This requirement did not cause any heartburn in the wing until the last few years.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

lordmonar

I know of one place where the requirement does cause heart burn....overseas squadrons.

Unless members want to pay real big bucks or they bring their attendance with them.....they are simply SOL until they go back to the states.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SarDragon

Quote from: lordmonar on August 17, 2013, 02:15:55 AM
I know of one place where the requirement does cause heart burn....overseas squadrons.

Unless members want to pay real big bucks or they bring their attendance with them.....they are simply SOL until they go back to the states.

We had a get-together at Yokota for the folks from Misawa, Yokota, and Okinawa one weekend that counted as a conference. It was all military transportation, so the cost was basically food and berthing. I do understand that military transportation has much lower availability now.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

lordmonar

Quote from: SarDragon on August 17, 2013, 02:47:08 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on August 17, 2013, 02:15:55 AM
I know of one place where the requirement does cause heart burn....overseas squadrons.

Unless members want to pay real big bucks or they bring their attendance with them.....they are simply SOL until they go back to the states.

We had a get-together at Yokota for the folks from Misawa, Yokota, and Okinawa one weekend that counted as a conference. It was all military transportation, so the cost was basically food and berthing. I do understand that military transportation has much lower availability now.
Well....that's my point all along.
A bunch of CAP members from different units getting together with an informal agenda and talking about CAP things and then having dinner.....if that is a "wing conference" then I attend one of those about every other month at one of the local watering holes in Las Vegas.

With out a definition of "wing conference" it can just be anything anyone says is a "conference".
That is my major beef with this requirement......beyond why we have the requirement in the first place.

Also of note........as we look for loop holes and other inconsistencies.

If my wing hosts a "wing conference" and while there I spend my entire time at the CLC, UCC or TLC course and then attend the dinner.   How is that different then when I attend the wing's CLC, UCC or TLC course that is not in conjunction with the "wing conference"?

If the purpose is to meet people outside of the squadron and network.....is that not satisfied if I travel to a wing level CLC/UCC/TLC event?
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

a2capt

If the Wing, Region or NHQ calls it a conference, then so be it!  ..

...and practically anything thats open to interpretation.

Until someone else gets their feathers in a ruffle and says "But I didn't get credit for mine.. so why should you?" and uses their new found authority to block it.

Think it has not happened?