What the AF thinks of CAP

[N Harmon]

Bullied kids have a tendency to become bullies. The Air Force gets a fair amount of disrespect from other services, so maybe beating up on the CAP is how some of its members deal with that. 

[JAFO78]

Clearly we have a problem with Big Brother Blue about who we are and what we do.

[tarheel gumby]

I have seen some of the AF members behaving in very bad ways that do not reflect the AF core values. I would be very suprised if some of them weren't the same ones on the fourms bagging on CAP. I work in the hospitality field, and no I do not let them know that I am in the CAP. As to what "Big Blue" thinks of us, I have never ever been disrespected by a member of the RM when I am in my CAP uniform. Where is all of this happening

[Nathan]

Quite frankly it doesn't matter very much what AF members who have time to spend on a discussion board think about CAP.  I doubt they're in a position to have much impact.

I disagree. In my 6+ years of CAP experience with almost that much time spent on CAP boards, I haven't noticed a particular divide between what the "real world" CAP thinks about certain issues and what the online world thinks. In both cases, there are uniform arguments. In both cases, there are disagreements about what constitutes hazing. In both cases, there is the typical Hawk war going on between the pro and anti-rangers. I don't think that the difference between online and offline members is professionalism. As far as I have experienced, CAP membership is pretty well represented online.

Although I am not military, I can't imagine why the military would be so different. There are those who enjoy the online environment, and there are those who don't. Without any real reason to assume that those online have a worse opinion of CAP than those offline, then we can assume that the USAF online community is fairly well representative of the USAF, and therefore, we seem to have a problem on our hands with our mother organization.

I suppose to do a truly objective study, we would need to take a good look at a number of USAF-related message boards out there, but from what I've seen, the picture isn't particularly good.

Regardless, whether that individual member who spouts his mouth about CAP has the impact to do anything isn't the issue. The issue is how MUCH of the USAF shares this opinion (or has no opinion) of CAP. Perhaps it is just that those who enjoy CAP's company in the blue uniform don't speak up, but CAP seems to have to defend itself against far more of these attacks than I have ever seen another USAF defend us from. The ONLY online experiences I've had with the USAF have been generally negative or apathetic.

With enough people thinking poorly of CAP, it certainly can have an effect on us. In the long run, it's not so much the piece of paper that SAYS the USAF likes us that's going to mean anything.

It's going to be the effort that the USAF bases put into helping us get uniforms that's going to matter. It's going to be the willingness for USAF personnel to staff certain CAP activities, or fly cadets on O-Rides that's going to matter. It's going to be the effort the local USAF makes in even keeping CONTACT with CAP that is going to matter. Because while a mission can be completed under orders from USAF higher-ups, it's the effort that is put into carrying out those orders that is really makes the difference for CAP. Without that effort, fueled by pride in CAP, we can't really expect our relationship (and therefore benefits) with the USAF to go anywhere but down, albeit slowly, but all the same.

[RiverAux]

Since all we've got is anecdotes, I'd say that we've got far more anecdotes of AF members who have no clue about CAP than we do those who are going to spout off negative things. 

But, I've said it before and I'll say it here again -- it is very obvious that the Air Force doesnt' care one bit about CAP and only does the absolute minimum to keep Congress off their backs.  Its not their fault -- we don't really help them in any significant way either through ES, AE, or CP so why should they go out of their way for us.  In contrast it is very obvioius that the Coast Guard loves their Aux because the Aux is out there helping them do some of their primary missions. 

Maybe if the VSAF program actually gets implemented nationwide and after about 5-10 years of having CAP people regularly seen working around bases, taking some preassure off of some of the AF folks, then something like that will develop and we'll really be considered part of the AF family. 

Until then, I just focus on the fhe fact that CAP is supporting federal, state and local governments and the AF is just the agency most of our funds go through.   I wish it weren't that way, but thats where we're at.   

[es_g0d]

Its interesting to see what the small sample of posters on that particular site have to say.  It is a little frustrating, too.  We all would like to have our image to be spectacular.  That said, I'd like everyone to consider the source -- you're asking junior Air Force members what they think about an organization they've rarely been exposed to and never educated about.  This would be akin to asking college freshmen what they think about the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.  You'll get a lot of uneducated drivel and silly banter.  Prophesy fulfilled.

I think this is simply another reason why "the Air Force" (and what that entails is a separate discussion) needs to be educated about is Auxiliary from Basic Military Training on.  Active, Reserve, Guard, Auxiliary is how we are organized.  Just to throw it out there, the bias against CAP from active duty folks is similar to the bias you'll see from active duty folks towards the Guard & Reserve.  You'll see opinions in the Guard & Reserve towards active duty as well.  The problem isn't isolated and we need not feel bad about it.  Just keep doing the excellent job you're doing ... and always strive to do better!  Our customers -- such as AFNORTH -- know our true capabilities when the rubber meets the road (or when the angle of attack meets the predominant airflow, as the case may be).

[Cecil DP]

But, I've said it before and I'll say it here again -- it is very obvious that the Air Force doesn't' care one bit about CAP and only does the absolute minimum to keep Congress off their backs.  Its not their fault -- we don't really help them in any significant way either through ES, AE, or CP so why should they go out of their way for us.  In contrast it is very obvious that the Coast Guard loves their Aux because the Aux is out there helping them do some of their primary missions.

But we do help them considerably. The Inland Search and Rescue mission belongs to the Air Force-not CAP! If they were to resume that mission in the numbers that CAP does (I do admit that if it's a military, high visibility, or politically visible, the Air Force does show up), it would cost them a lot more for one mission than we cost for twenty. Imagine a 4 hour search using a helicopter, 4 crewman, and expenses, per diem and a spare crew when the first one exceeds their maximum daily flying time.

[Short Field]

Maybe they should make a short class during basic training for AF personnel, that would educate them a bit on who we are, and what we do, and their responsibilites, and lack there of when around us.

They do get a short class - very short.  However, CAP has no impact on their life and as such ranks very low on the "must remember" list you start building in Basic.   It was explained to us that you might see a two-striper wearing what looks like Capt's rank but it was OK if he was in CAP and you should go ahead and salute him.  However, I would not like to be the two-striper that walzes up to his NCOIC in a CAP uniform and demands a salute...

Just FYI:  OSD delegates to the SECAF the authority to approve requests for the use of CAP assets.  This is because the use of CAP assets has NO IMPACT on the USAF's Combat Capability.  It is hard to get too excited about something that does not affect your combat capability.

[docspur]

I am wondering if most of the negative thoughts about CAP come from those serving where there is not a CAP presence, hence the "I don't know what CAP is and I'll be [darn]ed if I even give them the time of day" attitude.  I am surprised though at the comment made from the airman serving at Maxwell. Is it really the mindset at Maxwell that we are nothing and it is easier to just ignore/overlook us?  I've been to a lot of training at Scott AFB and they have a very active CAP presence there, and every time I've been there I've been treated with nothing but courtesy.  No, I didn't get salutes, and didn't expect any, or want any for that matter. But still was treated courteously. The contempt I see in the posts is disturbing to me.

I spend a lot of time with members of the Missouri Army National Guard...I have done a lot of volunteer work for them for a number of years.  Most of them know my affiliation with CAP, what CAP does.  Just recently I was attending a funeral. A very good friend of mine, who is a CSM, his father had passed away.  There were two Generals, an assortment of Lt Cols, some Majors, and every other rank in attendance. There was not one that didn't come up and speak to me...even some that I didn't know.  But they knew me and CAP.  Two of the Lt Cols and a Major even giving kudos on how well CAP had performed with disaster relief during our last ice storm and also remarking on other missions of support that CAP has done in the past, including the vast flooding Missouri had last year.  I even had one of the Generals, whom I had not seen in four years and at the time he was a Lt Col and I was in a different squadron, recognize me and thank me for the help the CAP had done at Jefferson Barracks for one of his commands that had been deployed to Iraq at the time. He remembered.  So I find it hard to believe that there are any military personnel out there that do not know OF us, even if just hearing about us, from joint missions of disaster relief or whatever. I've met people in every service, of every rank. Yes, some didn't know what we do...but there has never been any that has come out and said "I have never heard of CAP."

Ok, rambling has stopped...it's late/early and I think I've lost my train of thought.  Maybe just reading those post got to me more than I thought it would.

Goodnight All.

[Nathan]

But we do help them considerably. The Inland Search and Rescue mission belongs to the Air Force-not CAP! If they were to resume that mission in the numbers that CAP does (I do admit that if it's a military, high visibility, or politically visible, the Air Force does show up), it would cost them a lot more for one mission than we cost for twenty. Imagine a 4 hour search using a helicopter, 4 crewman, and expenses, per diem and a spare crew when the first one exceeds their maximum daily flying time.

I would imagine that if CAP stopped doing ES or was no longer able to keep up with it, the USAF wouldn't be bearing the burden for too long before pawning it off to someone else. Most of the missions I've been on, we've been working side by side with the local police and fire department, who has to be out there anyway. In some states, there is even another SAR group or two around who I'm sure would be happy to take the ball. As a cadet, it took me less than an hour to get used to using an ELT, and the fire department is already trained in most of the rest of what we learn (safety, evacuation, etc).

Would they be as efficient as CAP at first? Nah. We have it all in place already, and every time a mission happens, we just plug and play into our regulations. Granted, though, they probably wouldn't have nearly as much red tape to cut through, since the nature of any bureaucracy is to slow itself down as time goes on...

[flyguy06]

I am wondering if most of the negative thoughts about CAP come from those serving where there is not a CAP presence, hence the "I don't know what CAP is and I'll be [darn]ed if I even give them the time of day" attitude.  I am surprised though at the comment made from the airman serving at Maxwell. Is it really the mindset at Maxwell that we are nothing and it is easier to just ignore/overlook us?  I've been to a lot of training at Scott AFB and they have a very active CAP presence there, and every time I've been there I've been treated with nothing but courtesy.  No, I didn't get salutes, and didn't expect any, or want any for that matter. But still was treated courteously. The contempt I see in the posts is disturbing to me.

I spend a lot of time with members of the Missouri Army National Guard...I have done a lot of volunteer work for them for a number of years.  Most of them know my affiliation with CAP, what CAP does.  Just recently I was attending a funeral. A very good friend of mine, who is a CSM, his father had passed away.  There were two Generals, an assortment of Lt Cols, some Majors, and every other rank in attendance. There was not one that didn't come up and speak to me...even some that I didn't know.  But they knew me and CAP.  Two of the Lt Cols and a Major even giving kudos on how well CAP had performed with disaster relief during our last ice storm and also remarking on other missions of support that CAP has done in the past, including the vast flooding Missouri had last year.  I even had one of the Generals, whom I had not seen in four years and at the time he was a Lt Col and I was in a different squadron, recognize me and thank me for the help the CAP had done at Jefferson Barracks for one of his commands that had been deployed to Iraq at the time. He remembered.  So I find it hard to believe that there are any military personnel out there that do not know OF us, even if just hearing about us, from joint missions of disaster relief or whatever. I've met people in every service, of every rank. Yes, some didn't know what we do...but there has never been any that has come out and said "I have never heard of CAP."

Ok, rambling has stopped...it's late/early and I think I've lost my train of thought.  Maybe just reading those post got to me more than I thought it would.

Goodnight All.

Ok, youare comparing an Airman to a CSM and General Officer. Of course the CSM and General are going to be amiable towards you. The Airman doesnt have to do anything but his job. And please, you are letting this one Airman represent the entire Maxwell AFB? um no.

[flyguy06]

In my opinion, the reason I thik a lot of junior enlisted (and some junior officers) dont respect CAP or look at it as a joke is because of the CAP people they have come in contact with or the stories they have been told by others.

When they see the over weight senior member in blues they see it as a joke. when they see senior members inuniform and not performing proer customs and curteousies, theysee it as a joke. They do not realize we are a voulunteer organization and are not mandated to salute each other or what not. All they know is they were taught to do that and then they see us not doing it. well, they think its funny. Its as simple as that, No analyzation needed. No deep thinkning prpcess. Its as simple as that.

I agree with what was said earlier.  Senor members need to carry themselves in a professional manner, They need to behave in a professional maner. But when youhave soooo many people saying "we are not the military and we dont have to" Well, servicemembers see this attitude and they judge us.

Again, senior ranking people are not going to come out and say this. In the military once you hit 0-4 or E-7, you "have" to carry yourself in a certain way. You cant just come out and say whats on your mind. An E-1 on the other hand. he doesnt care. what are they do to him?

[Stonewall]

When I was junior enlisted on active duty (Army) I had several buds that were former cadets.  They thought I was insane for getting involved as a senior member.  Their perception of CAP seniors was that they are fat, lazy and only talk about flying.  And of course, most seniors that are not involved with cadets rarely wear any military style uniform.

Look at my squadron.  The CC and I are the only two seniors who wear military style uniforms.  We have, I think, 50+ seniors in my squadron.  Everyone else wears civilian clothes or the polo (with an array of pants, not just gray).

We live in a huge military town with two very large Navy bases.  A large percentage of our non-distress ELTs are on one of the two Navy bases.  No doubt in my mind the seniors (no cadets) that respond to those ELTs show up in a CAP polo shirt, if that.

If you were the Master at Arms (MA) gate guard and a 60 year old guy comes pulling up in his station wagon with bed head, 2" thick glasses, a blue polo with CAP emblem and a cheesey ID card and said "I'm here to shut off an ELT", what impression would that young seaman have of CAP?

[flyguy06]

I'm a MAJ in CAP and a CPT in the Army National Guard. There is a CAP squadron in my Group thatironically meets at my National Guard unit. One weekend we had a SARex and I had my Flight suit on with my MAJ rank, well I went to guard drill a few weekends later and apparently someone had seen me wearing MAJ rank, I caught hell from soldiers and one of "my" Army MAJ's. They were asking why in the H was I was wearing major rank. i dont fault them. They dont know about CAP and they dont understand it. I overheard the full time Guard stff who sees this CAP unit every week and they refer to them as the "air patrol kids" They have no idea what CAP is. they just see this "kids" playing military every week. and they see these old fat dudes in flight suits flying the small planes. Thats the image CAP has givne alot of military units.

I think that needs to change. CAP needs to be more professional andin order to do that, CAP needs to be more discrimnating about our rules. Like Isaid onanther thread. We let "everybody" in. We dont need to do that. We need to have hard standards and stick to them. Until we do that,we will conintue to get this attitude from military folks and some civilians.

[flyguy06]

When I was junior enlisted on active duty (Army) I had several buds that were former cadets.  They thought I was insane for getting involved as a senior member.  Their perception of CAP seniors was that they are fat, lazy and only talk about flying.  And of course, most seniors that are not involved with cadets rarely wear any military style uniform.

Look at my squadron.  The CC and I are the only two seniors who wear military style uniforms.  We have, I think, 50+ seniors in my squadron.  Everyone else wears civilian clothes or the polo (with an array of pants, not just gray).

We live in a huge military town with two very large Navy bases.  A large percentage of our non-distress ELTs are on one of the two Navy bases.  No doubt in my mind the seniors (no cadets) that respond to those ELTs show up in a CAP polo shirt, if that.

If you were the Master at Arms (MA) gate guard and a 60 year old guy comes pulling up in his station wagon with bed head, 2" thick glasses, a blue polo with CAP emblem and a cheesey ID card and said "I'm here to shut off an ELT", what impression would that young seaman have of CAP?

exactly. I agree

[DogCollar]

I read that thread from the Air Force board.  Frankly, I am not at all worried about responses from 18 to 25 year olds who are often tasting what life away from home is like, the freedom and the responsibility for the first time.  The ones that are posting negatively about CAP are kids, and are behaving like kids.  The postings exhibited immaturity.  Don't worry about it.

I would be much more concerned if these were career guys and gals with 15 years under their belts.

But this doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to educate AF personnel about Civil Air Patrol.

[AlphaSigOU]

I spent a week at wonderful Nellis AFB, Nevada for Pacific Region Staff College last week. We were told at our inbriefing the importance of customs and courtesies and that our uniforms needed to be up to par; we were also informed that we may not get a salute, as it is not required by AD military and to not jack 'em up if they fail to pop off a crisp one. Trolling for salutes was strengstens verboten.

I got a few salutes, which I returned properly, and exhibited proper C&C to several AD AF types much higher in grade than this lowly captain while walking to the BX food court at chow time. And yes, I got caught outside at retreat and gave proper honors. Never once did I jack up anyone lower in grade than I for failing to salute me. I know, it's the ingrained former cadink in me, but it really doesn't take much to pop off a correct salute and give a proper greeting.

[RiverAux]

Guys, I'm telling you that its all about what we do for individual Air Force members not the uniforms, customs and courtesies, weight issues, or ancient senior members. 

The CG Aux has all of those same issues and probably has them worse since they are even less "military" than CAP in a lot of ways. 

But because there are Auxies out there helping train new CG recruits, standing radio watches at CG stations, giving other training to active duty and reservists, etc, etc. just about every Coast Guardsman has probably had one on one contact with a CG Auxie at some time in their career and in that contact the Auxie was probably doing something to try to help them out.  That is what builds a positive relationship.  They may not know much about how the Aux works, but they like what they do. 

Airman Snuffy Smith doesn't care one bit that AFRCC calls CAP to do SAR or anything else.  That doesn't impact their lives.   Until then, most AF members will probably never have a personal interaction with a CAP member.  They may see some while there is an encampment going on, but that will be it for most.  That being the case there will be little opportunity to build a positive image, but plenty of chances to make a negative impression -- They expect to see someone wearing a military uniform correctly and if they see a CAP member thusly, they're not going to think anything about it.  But, if they see one wearing it horribly, that will stick with them.   

[JohnKachenmeister]

But we do help them considerably. The Inland Search and Rescue mission belongs to the Air Force-not CAP! If they were to resume that mission in the numbers that CAP does (I do admit that if it's a military, high visibility, or politically visible, the Air Force does show up), it would cost them a lot more for one mission than we cost for twenty. Imagine a 4 hour search using a helicopter, 4 crewman, and expenses, per diem and a spare crew when the first one exceeds their maximum daily flying time.

I would imagine that if CAP stopped doing ES or was no longer able to keep up with it, the USAF wouldn't be bearing the burden for too long before pawning it off to someone else. Most of the missions I've been on, we've been working side by side with the local police and fire department, who has to be out there anyway. In some states, there is even another SAR group or two around who I'm sure would be happy to take the ball. As a cadet, it took me less than an hour to get used to using an ELT, and the fire department is already trained in most of the rest of what we learn (safety, evacuation, etc).

Would they be as efficient as CAP at first? Nah. We have it all in place already, and every time a mission happens, we just plug and play into our regulations. Granted, though, they probably wouldn't have nearly as much red tape to cut through, since the nature of any bureaucracy is to slow itself down as time goes on...

Nathan:

The USAF cannot "Pawn off" a mission assigned to them by Congress.  Inland SAR is assigned to the USAF by Congress, which is why CAP exists as an auxiliary of the Air Force.  Yes, state agencies and other volunteer agencies MAY participate, but to the extent that Federal resources are requested, the Air Force is the agency that is required to respond. 

Do not get wrapped around the axles over the on-line expressions of a few junior enlisted folks.  They also blast uninformed opinions about the Air Guard and the Reserve. 

You should hear what the junior enlisted folk in the Marine Corps and Army have to say about the Air Force weenies.

Part of the fun of coming out of the jungle in Honduras was going to Palmerola to listen to the Air Force guys whine about how tough they had it there.  They considered Palmerola austere service... we considered it a luxurious R&R center!

[wuzafuzz]

That kind of attitude is frequently directed toward volunteers, especially those who fall under any agency with "real" responders.  Some SDF's, reserve cops, firefighters, and EMT's are often treated like "red-headed step-children" by the paid folks they supplement or work with.  (It's really bad when volunteers are perceived as a threat to full-time jobs.)  Sometimes all volunteers are suspect until they prove themselves.  The rest of the time the "real" folks are the birds, and the volunteers are the statues.  To some level it just comes with the territory.  As usual, YMMV.

Absent a coherent marketing strategy at the national level, we need to make the most of every opportunity to prove ourselves.  We won't win everyone over, but those we impress might spread the word.  The people who see us behaving badly certainly do.