What the AF thinks of CAP

[Stonewall]

I came across this today on www.afforums.com.

Discussion:  Saluting Civil Air Patrol Officers

They're "real military", be advised, there is big boy language...

[Stonewall]

Some quotes: 

You can usually spot the CAP people. They are like 400 lbs.

Never even seen one...

"Official" auxiliary of the Air Force or not.. They're NOT in the [farg]ing military.

[Flying Pig]

When I was at Ft. Gordon I worked frequently with the Augusta CAP and our leadership asked us to not only render a salute to their officers but to also respect the "rank" and adhere to the "orders" of CAP officer's and NCOs while performing duties with them. It was a little silly having to take orders from a 15 year old girl. My argument is they were Dept. of Homeland Security and carried no real authority, but as I said we were directed to do so.
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I love this post.   Thats a 100% lie.  I guarantee the Airmen was NEVER told  he had to take orders from a cadet.  Then the rest of the posts respond as if it was true.  I like to call him out, but.....I dont feel like registering.

[Stonewall]

When I was at Ft. Gordon I worked frequently with the Augusta CAP and our leadership asked us to not only render a salute to their officers but to also respect the "rank" and adhere to the "orders" of CAP officer's and NCOs while performing duties with them. It was a little silly having to take orders from a 15 year old girl. My argument is they were Dept. of Homeland Security and carried no real authority, but as I said we were directed to do so.
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I love this post.   Thats a 100% lie.  I guarantee the Airmen was NEVER told  he had to take orders from a cadet.  Then the rest of the posts respond as if it was true.  

Yeah, I saw that.  They were probably told to "listen" to CAP NCOs and Officers (Senior Members) or something...But what's worse, is that he associated CAP with Homeland Security...not the Auxiliary of his branch of service.

[jimmydeanno]

Stonewall,  would you really say that is what the "AF" thinks of CAP?  I just read through the thread and there are multiple 'non-understandings' of who we are and what we do.

Even the CAP member that 'chimed in' did some organizational degradation telling an untrue story about HWSRN.

My squadron meets on an ANG base.  We are constantly invited to their events, asked to help with MWR related events and we even won the 'best of show' for our booth at their annual holiday carnival (voted on by ANG members).  They thank us for everything we do, support us by presenting milestone awards, offer KC-135 flights, etc.  Nothing but respect for who we are and what we do.

My previous unit on an AD base, same thing.  Military officers and enlisted alike supported us in whatever they could, brought their children to become cadets.

Did they salute us? No, and I wouldn't expect them to.  But not once have I ever heard one of them say anything like on that thread.  

[Stonewall]

Stonewall,  would you really say that is what the "AF" thinks of CAP?

No, but I couldn't think of anything more creative to call this thread.  There are two other discussions about CAP on there that both me and Shorning (from CAP Talk) chimed in on in the past.

Some more negative comments there, but also some genuine comments like "that looks interesting" or "I wish I knew about it when I was a kid".

[Flying Pig]

I dont mean to detract, because I know we've beat this up but its in cases like this that I think its beneficial to have military ribbons and badges on CAP uniforms.

[Stonewall]

There's a guy on there named "Jerden" who acts tough about CAP, like its stupid.  Back in 2007 he posted that he had a blast as a cadet.

He writes:

[farg] that [mess]. No way in hell am I gonna put up with taking orders from a CAP cadet.

"Official" auxiliary of the Air Force or not.. They're NOT in the [farg]ing military.

But in 2007...

Were any of you ever in Civil Air Patrol when you were younger? I was in from the age of 12 to about 15 or 16 and it's what made me want to join the Air Force in the first place. Anyone?

I'll have E-3 right out of BMT, too. I think it's what.... 2nd Lieutenant when the E-3 thing kicks in? I got up to Captain and it was a blast.

I went to GSAR in Indiana, too. That was pretty fun. That was about the only national activity I did, though. I went to three or four encampments and lots of SAREX's in the summers.

[Flying Pig]

Oh shoot!  Stonewall stirs the pot.  Pop the popcorn kids and grab a soda.  The show is about to begin!

[jimmydeanno]

I dont mean to detract, because I know we've beat this up but its in cases like this that I think its beneficial to have military ribbons and badges on CAP uniforms.

Or at least have our members act professionally.  When I hear stories of our members going to NSC and having to be reminded not to put apples in their blues shirt pockets, I cringe.  

I think it's been said many times that what we are lacking in CAP is effective leadership.  Squadron Commanders, Group Commanders, Wing Commanders, Region Commanders, more often than not do not possess the leadership skill or experience that we as an organization need.

However, I think overall our public image is good and the general public (when introduced to us) think highly of what we do (once they see it).  

I suppose it could be a factor of our 'secrecy.'  Nobody knowing about us makes it difficult for people with the skills we really need to join and stay.  I hate hearing less than stellar comments about us and our organization because I know what a great thing we have.  I know how great the people can be and how professionally we can get the mission done.  

[Stonewall]

Something I've thought about in the 5 years I've been visiting www.afforums.com.  You'll see people who have been members less than a year with 1,500 posts.  Like me, they're posting from work.  The difference is, my tax payer dollars are paying their salaries.  They are on government computers.

That said...I don't care.  I'd do it too 

I'm just surprised a forum gets through on G-Computers. 

[davidsinn]

Something I've thought about in the 5 years I've been visiting www.afforums.com.  You'll see people who have been members less than a year with 1,500 posts.  Like me, they're posting from work.  The difference is, my tax payer dollars are paying their salaries.  They are on government computers.

That said...I don't care.  I'd do it too 

I'm just surprised a forum gets through on G-Computers. 

It amazes me the number of children in the Air Force. I expected more maturity from airmen. Granted I have to deal with 25 year old children in this organization from time to time as well.

[flyguy06]

You expect maturity from an 18 year old Airman? Its like that in the army too. These kids are staright out of High school. We all went through that stage in one manner or another.

People put too much stake in people just because they wear a military uniform. military people are "people" too. The military is a cross section of society. military are no better or worse thananyone else in our nation. Civilians hold military folks to a higher standard and its a burden some military folks choose not to bear.

[N Harmon]

It amazes me the number of children in the Air Force. I expected more maturity from airmen. Granted I have to deal with 25 year old children in this organization from time to time as well.

I chock it up to internet anonymity. It's easy being an internet toughguy and claim you would tell a superior to go eat a [hotdog] if you were told to help out the CAP, but in reality 99% of them would salute and get the job done. Not that I believe for one second AF personnel would ever be assigned to follow orders from a CAP cadet. That's already been discussed.

[Nathan]

I chock it up to internet anonymity. It's easy being an internet toughguy and claim you would tell a superior to go eat a [hotdog] if you were told to help out the CAP, but in reality 99% of them would salute and get the job done. Not that I believe for one second AF personnel would ever be assigned to follow orders from a CAP cadet. That's already been discussed.

But should that knowledge make us feel better about this situation?

For instance, I fully and openly admit that I am not Pineda's biggest fan, and I was very openly critical of him on the boards. I was glad to see him washed out of the program. But when I met him, I certainly didn't say any of these things. I simply shook his hand and talked with him for a few minutes.

Does that in any way change what I think about how he handled (or mishandled) his authority and position during his time as CC? Not at all. While I was shaking his hand, I still held the exact same position on him. But professionally, I acted as any CAP member would and SHOULD in that situation. I respected his rank and the obligation I have to be professional toward the leader of this organization.

This idea that the USAF only bags on us anonymously really shouldn't make us very comfortable at all. The whole point of anonymity is so one can express his/her mind without fear of retribution while performing in that obligatory professional role. If these members really are bagging on us, then every time they meet you, shake your hand, and tell you that you're doing a great job, what should you believe?

Obviously, the viewpoints of these few members on this board do not necessarily represent the viewpoints of the USAF. Officially, the USAF loves us and respects us. But I would highly, highly doubt that even a majority of individuals within the USAF feel that way toward CAP. Of those in the majority, if they don't NOT like us, they don't really seem to be aware of us.

Hell, the reports I get back from some of our former CAP cadets at the USAFA implies that despite the fact the USAFA has a CAP unit there, very few members, even former cadets, even former SPAATZ cadets (who may award quite a bit of their entry into the USAFA to the Spaatz) won't join due to the negative hype surrounding CAP.

This truly is a "win the hearts and minds" scenario. No matter how many pictures we can get with USAF generals or how many letters of appreciation we get for good USAF missions, in the end, we don't exactly know how many of the USAF actually is willing to stand behind that endorsement of our organization.

[N Harmon]

I was simply commenting on the maturity of afforums users.

[ThorntonOL]

I know HWSRN stands for our former Commander who the current one replaced. (I would write her name in but for the life of would butcher the spelling of it.) But what is the acronym for? (I saw it once or twice when it first was posted but forgot what it stould for.
Here's what I thought it stood for.
He Who Shall Remain Numbered

I know it sounds stupid but It's what I get when I think about the letters. (too many newspaper word jumbles.)

[jimmydeanno]

I know HWSRN stands for our former Commander who the current one replaced. (I would write her name in but for the life of would butcher the spelling of it.) But what is the acronym for? (I saw it once or twice when it first was posted but forgot what it stould for.
Here's what I thought it stood for.
He Who Shall Remain Numbered

I know it sounds stupid but It's what I get when I think about the letters. (too many newspaper word jumbles.)

He Who Shall Remain Nameless

[biomed441]

From my experiences back when I was a cadet and observed how our senior members were treated by Air Force personnel, it was more than discouraging.  Army, Marines, Navy, and even Seals (I was in San Diego so we had a good mix of bases in the area) all seemed to show great respect to the senior members, and were more than happy to show us around their equipment and facilities. They even treated our senior member officers like comissioned officers and seemed to actually know a good deal about our orginization. However, when I took a trip up to March AFB, the turn around was almost scary. Theres a difference between not renduring courtesies, and absolute disrespect.

A good friend of mine is AF Enlisted, and I never mentioned my CAP service to him, and sure enough he slamed in the CAP Seniors, and threw out the same kind of lies about having to take orders from Cadets. (I think they get CAP NCO's confused with CAP Cadets) He even slammed on the ANG and reserves as well. (Might also be why the ANG gives CAP more respect as they too are used to the crap we get from active duty)

I believe this in part to the fact that the Air Force personnel really have no Idea who we are, and the few that do, don't seem to understand us well enough to understand that they aren't required to rendure any sort or courtesies to us. Maybe they should make a short class during basic training for AF personnel, that would educate them a bit on who we are, and what we do, and their responsibilites, and lack there of when around us.

Final notes, this further stresses the fact that as members of the CAP, we need to recognize that our appearnace and demeanor can affect the way we are viewed by the military and public. We always need to look clean and sharp, especially those who chose to wear the AF Style uniform. We need to act professional, and be professional.

[RiverAux]

Quite frankly it doesn't matter very much what AF members who have time to spend on a discussion board think about CAP.  I doubt they're in a position to have much impact.  Granted, it would be better if they held a positive opinion.  NHQ public affairs did a survey of the public on this issue -- would be interesting if they also did one of the AF though it probably wouldn't be a high priority for funding.