What is real purpose of CAP

[mikeylikey]

^ There are many SQD's that don't have that "balance".  I was always a firm believer that every SQD should be a composite.  We need to do away with Senior SQD's, and Cadet SQD's.  There would be only a CAP SQD.

Face it, to be a Cadet SQD, you still need Senior Members.  So go out a recruit two more to make it a Composite.

Then the Senior SQD's I have been to, are always filled with non-compliant, lazy, t-shirt wearing Seniors, who only continue their memberships for the benefits it carries. 

[lordmonar]

Here in Las Vegas we have two senior Squadrons and three cadet squadrons.

The Senior Squadrons are all proffessional ES orinted organisaitons.  One has a very strong external and internal AE program.  Both support the cadet program through O-rides, inclusion of cadets in the ES program and willing ness to work with cadets when asked.

But the do not want the cadets to be part of their everyday activities.....and I agree with them.  The way they run their program is great for them....and it completely different then the way the cadet programs are run.

Would it be nice to have every squadron doing all the missions?

Sure thing.

But it won't be practical.

Not all squadrons have the manpower for it.
Not all squadrons have the right skill mix for it.
Not all squadrons have the "demand" for it.

[mikeylikey]

Here in Las Vegas we have two senior Squadrons and three cadet squadrons.

Do any of the Senior and Cadet SQD's meet at the same location, but on different nights, or in separation at the same location?

I was a member of a Senior SQD that met the same night as a the Cadet SQD, and at the same location.  It was foolish not to "composite" both units together.  You can still run Senior crap and Cadet crap separately.  No big deal!

[lordmonar]

Yes...two senior squadorns and one cadet squadron meet in the same place...and the cadets and one SR squadron meet on the same night.

But you miss the point....the Senior Squadron wants nothing to do with cadet beyond O-rides, and working with them during SAREX's.

They don't want or need the added overhead of a cadet squadron.

Right, wrong...or indifferent.....that is the way it is.

[mikeylikey]

^ It is wrong.  There are three missions in CAP.  Do all three! 

From my standpoint, those Seniors have a lot of nerve to say they want nothing to do with the Cadets.  If I were NHQ (or even the Wing) I would have consolidated those units years ago. 

I just don't see what overhead there is with a Composite SQD.  Thats why you have a DCC.  To RUN the Cadet program. 

Both the Cadets and Seniors are missing out on a great opportunity. 

[lordmonar]

What about my seniors in my squadron who want nothing to do with ES?

Just like any organisation.....the ORGANISATION may do many things....but different divisions, offices and individuals focus only on one portion on the big picture.

It would be like asking Infantry Plantoons to be proficiant in heavy communications, artillary and armor.

The cadets are not missing out on anything....except maybe boring bi-monthly buisness meetings.

As for overhead....maintaining a program that keeps cadets engaged is a lot more man power intensive than a program aimed at senior members.  Likewise maintaining cadet records is much more manpower intensive.

[IceNine]

Yes...two senior squadorns and one cadet squadron meet in the same place...and the cadets and one SR squadron meet on the same night.

But you miss the point....the Senior Squadron wants nothing to do with cadet beyond O-rides, and working with them during SAREX's.

They don't want or need the added overhead of a cadet squadron.

Right, wrong...or indifferent.....that is the way it is.

Not to derail too much but...

There are three squadron meeting at the same location?!?!?  How is that an effective use of resources?  To me you are looking at a completely defunked system in need of some serious realignment.  At the very least you should have one massive senior squadron, and a cadet squadron.  If you truely believe that with enough staff to warrant 2 senior squadron in the same location, that there are not enough of them to composite the unit. 

Then do I have some property you should look at

[lordmonar]

Big building. 

[isuhawkeye]

Just to throw a wrench in here..

Why shouldn't units, or members be aloud to specialize?

There is not a single small scale unit in the military that tries to do it all.  Event the mighty air force segments out jobs, and responsibilities between units. 

If a unit with a strong CP doesn't want to do ES why should they be forced to? doesn't specialization lead to a stronger more experienced group of volunteers?

[sarflyer]

Units who don't make use of all three missions are diminished, not strenghtened.  All three mission work together to make a well-rounded, diverse squadron.

It also keeps members interested with the wide variety of activities.

[IceNine]

Not only are they diminished, but more importantly units that specialize get into the sandbox mentality and you will ONLY see them or their members when it benefits them.

For instance, group is supporting a the VFW for a 4th of July event that requires large amounts of CAP folks but because there is no ES training involved you only get support from 2 out of your 5 units. 

Its a slippery slope to allow units to not participate in all of the aspects of our program

[MIKE]

I'd agree that a Cadet or Composite Squadron that specializes in ES is very bad... but I think trying to do all three for the sake of being "well rounded" is not any better... it results in Jack of all trades, master of none.  And it hurts units in the areas they should be focusing on.  It should be obvious what a Cadet Squadron should be focused on... CAP doesn't have ES Squadrons.

[Major Carrales]

I'd agree that a Cadet or Composite Squadron that specializes in ES is very bad... but I think trying to do all three for the sake of being "well rounded" is not any better... it results in Jack of all trades, master of none.  And it hurts units in the areas they should be focusing on.  It should be obvious what a Cadet Squadron should be focused on... CAP doesn't have ES Squadrons.

I totally disagree.  The Composite Squadron, when properly managed, is the best environment for CAP.  In a composite squadron the key comes from staffing.  Honestly, Jack of all trades, master of none....ridiculous.  What you need are the key people in the key positions working to make their portion of the unit the best at what it does.

The three missions of CAP are all of our missions, even the CAP Officer in the Cadet Squadron needs to be aware that they have three missions.  Seniors in a Senior squadron have to recognize the fact that there are Cadets in CAP. Don't "shoot" Peter to pay Paul; because then Paul is pretty lonely and, in terms of CAP, less attractive to those that would fund us.

Be honest, the Cadet Program appeals to one group of Politicians and the Emergency Services appeals to the others.  Remove the one and there is a real orgaizational "structural integrity" issues.  In fact, in our area, it is the power of having both that insures community support.  Be sure to enter that into the calculus of CAP's main purpose.

[mikeylikey]

As for overhead....maintaining a program that keeps cadets engaged is a lot more man power intensive than a program aimed at senior members.  Likewise maintaining cadet records is much more manpower intensive.

There are many SQD's that run a very successful Cadet Program with one or two CAP Officers.  I have done it myself, upward of a year.  Honestly, I can whip through the paperwork very fast on the Cadet Side.  Even faster now, that promotions can be input on line. 

There is no overhead with the Cadet side.  Actually, I would say it is easier to run a Cadet Program than it is to run a Senior Program.  The Cadets can basically "run themselves" with proper guidance.   

[Major Carrales]

Let me have my say on this in a more global sense than the above "reply" to MIKE.  After reading that post I can see its incomplete nature may make fertile ground for misunderstanding.

I will start and end with this simple phrase...

The purpose of CAP is NOT to operate three organizaions under the umbrella of CAP, but rather operate one Organization that accomplishes three missions.

Thus...

I have seen in the above posts instances of multiple units meeting at the same location based on the idea that ES and CADET  PROGRAMS should be somehow in schism.  In such a situation it seems like the idea that "simplicity is the natural state" of the universe is negated.

I will state the following facts and logical points of analysis...
1) CAP is most attractive when it appeals to the supporters of the ES and Cadet Programs, this provides two fronts of support of legislators and other policy makers.

2) CAP has three missions that are (or at least should be) equal in their implementation.  These missons are neither mutually exclusive nor the singluar push of the greater whole; but rather, they are furthered within the sphere of and scope of their goals.  This CP is not an obstalce to ES and vice-versa.

3) CAP units are basically service and mutual aid organizations to the communities they serve.  This being said, CAP units often have to compete for volunteers and the use of facilities.  This often creates a lack of staff.

I submit to you all that having a Cadet and Senior squadron that meets in the same location is basically an adminsitrative item of illogic since a Composite Squadron, run in the proper manner, is basically the same thing.

To have the two in schism demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of the points made above where the MISSIONS of CAP work in harmony.

Perhaps, if those in leadership...the Squadron Commanders and deputies, understood that the one program does not diminish the other or that a "General Purpose" CAP leader who manages the activities of deputies (through delegation insuring that ES and CADET PROGRAMs are operating in a viable fashion) is a "better" administrative entity than two Specialty commanders operating in schism...and many times in direct rivalry and contempt of one another.

Remember that all the above is ancillary since the purpose of CAP is NOT to operate three organizaions under the umbrella of CAP, but rather operate one Organization that accomplishes three missions.

[Eclipse]

I submit to you all that having a Cadet and Senior squadron that meets in the same location is basically an adminsitrative item of illogic since a Composite Squadron, run in the proper manner, is basically the same thing.

I was basically thinking the same thing, and as to overhead, an active cadet program has a lot more than a senior program - regular testing, promotions, probably twice the activities, parental approval, etc.

[Short Field]

How is that an effective use of resources? 

If you knew all the details on the resources they have - you would move to Las Vegas!!!  CAP in the Las Vegas area is supported very well.

IIRC,  two senior squadrons have office space on Nellis AFB - basically their own building.  One cadet composite squadron has meeting and office space in another Nellis AFB building.  The two senior squadrons and one cadet squadron hold their meetings at North Las Vegas Airport.  One of the senior squadrons and the cadet squadron meet on the same night - different large rooms.  However, the senior squadron only meets twice a month and the cadet squadron meets every week.  One Composite Squadron meets at Henderson Executive Airport.  There is another cadet school squadron that operates in a local grade school plus another CAP school program operating in a separate school.   The Mission Base is the sole occupant of and operates from the Ranch House.  All squadrons (senior, composite, and cadet) have access to the building and use it as needed or desired.  The Ranch House is an historical building on North Las Vegas Airport next to the hangers that CAP aircraft are parked in.  No one pays any rent or utilities on their meeting, office, or mission base spaces.  CAP only pays the ramp parking fee for the hangers.  Oh, they also got 32 late model computers with flat screen monitors donated to them this year.    It took their leadership years to make and keep the relationships that gets this level of support. 

:clap:  :clap:  :clap: I would have to say they are doing OK in supporting the three major missions of CAP.

[stratoflyer]

I agree wholeheartedly with Major Carrales. Civil Air Patrol is in fact 1 organization with three primary missions that are each equally important: Aerospace Education, Emergency Services, and Cadet Programs.

Indeed, a composite squadron with proper command delegation can successfully carry out these missions. In response to the Las Vegas comment, people in that area must certainly understand that CAP has multiple fronts. We are here to help young people become leaders and outstanding citizens. We are here to assist those in need whether in the capacity of search and rescue or disaster relief. We are here to educate the public on America's aerospace superiority. (We remain the number country for training pilots).

It is true, CAP can be what you make of it. For some, it's a flying club. For others, it is a breeding ground for future leaders. However, what must be kept in mind is that no matter what we specialize in individually, ultimately, we have a calling to serve this country as civilian volunteers of the Air Force Auxiliary.

Since the days of CAP's conception, this organization was made to serve the United States in a capacity required by the era--in WWII it was sub-patrols; today our missions have been expanded. It is to say that whatever needs there may be, if CAP can somehow assist, then it should. And that, I believe, is the real purpose of CAP.

[ThorntonOL]

When it comes to my unit, I would say it is sort of jack of all trades, But I am not saying we don't do well. We cover Aerospace Ed, Cadet Programs and ES. We just have people who are intrested in each field. From our seniors almost all of them have or had or were a cadet in the CAP.
My dad joined because I liked the program and ended up for several years as our unit commander.
He's no longer the commander but he still comes to the meetings and is currently the Safety Officer. When I joined we had been meeting in three different rooms at a local airport but due to age of the building and other factors we moved up to an old meeting place of a somewhat local unit that moved upstate a little ways and we're growing.
Just a question.
We have some cadets who came in liking the program but not really knowing what they want to do. How do you figure out what attracted your cadets?

[Eclipse]

We have some cadets who came in liking the program but not really knowing what they want to do. How do you figure out what attracted your cadets?

Ask them?