I came across this today on www.afforums.com.
Discussion: Saluting Civil Air Patrol Officers (http://www.afforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20091)
They're "real military", be advised, there is big boy language...
Some quotes:
QuoteYou can usually spot the CAP people. They are like 400 lbs.
QuoteNever even seen one...
Quote"Official" auxiliary of the Air Force or not.. They're NOT in the [farg]ing military.
When I was at Ft. Gordon I worked frequently with the Augusta CAP and our leadership asked us to not only render a salute to their officers but to also respect the "rank" and adhere to the "orders" of CAP officer's and NCOs while performing duties with them. It was a little silly having to take orders from a 15 year old girl. My argument is they were Dept. of Homeland Security and carried no real authority, but as I said we were directed to do so.
__________________
I love this post. Thats a 100% lie. I guarantee the Airmen was NEVER told he had to take orders from a cadet. Then the rest of the posts respond as if it was true. I like to call him out, but.....I dont feel like registering.
Quote from: Flying Pig on April 06, 2009, 07:26:21 PM
When I was at Ft. Gordon I worked frequently with the Augusta CAP and our leadership asked us to not only render a salute to their officers but to also respect the "rank" and adhere to the "orders" of CAP officer's and NCOs while performing duties with them. It was a little silly having to take orders from a 15 year old girl. My argument is they were Dept. of Homeland Security and carried no real authority, but as I said we were directed to do so.
__________________
I love this post. Thats a 100% lie. I guarantee the Airmen was NEVER told he had to take orders from a cadet. Then the rest of the posts respond as if it was true.
Yeah, I saw that. They were probably told to "listen" to CAP NCOs and Officers (Senior Members) or something...But what's worse, is that he associated CAP with Homeland Security...not the Auxiliary of his branch of service.
Stonewall, would you really say that is what the "AF" thinks of CAP? I just read through the thread and there are multiple 'non-understandings' of who we are and what we do.
Even the CAP member that 'chimed in' did some organizational degradation telling an untrue story about HWSRN.
My squadron meets on an ANG base. We are constantly invited to their events, asked to help with MWR related events and we even won the 'best of show' for our booth at their annual holiday carnival (voted on by ANG members). They thank us for everything we do, support us by presenting milestone awards, offer KC-135 flights, etc. Nothing but respect for who we are and what we do.
My previous unit on an AD base, same thing. Military officers and enlisted alike supported us in whatever they could, brought their children to become cadets.
Did they salute us? No, and I wouldn't expect them to. But not once have I ever heard one of them say anything like on that thread.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 06, 2009, 07:30:35 PM
Stonewall, would you really say that is what the "AF" thinks of CAP?
No, but I couldn't think of anything more creative to call this thread. There are two other discussions about CAP on there that both me and Shorning (from CAP Talk) chimed in on in the past.
Some more negative comments there, but also some genuine comments like
"that looks interesting" or
"I wish I knew about it when I was a kid".
I dont mean to detract, because I know we've beat this up but its in cases like this that I think its beneficial to have military ribbons and badges on CAP uniforms.
There's a guy on there named "Jerden" who acts tough about CAP, like its stupid. Back in 2007 he posted that he had a blast as a cadet.
He writes:
Quote from: Jerden
[farg] that [mess]. No way in hell am I gonna put up with taking orders from a CAP cadet.
"Official" auxiliary of the Air Force or not.. They're NOT in the [farg]ing military.
But in 2007...
Quote from: JerdenWere any of you ever in Civil Air Patrol when you were younger? I was in from the age of 12 to about 15 or 16 and it's what made me want to join the Air Force in the first place. Anyone?
Quote from: JerdenI'll have E-3 right out of BMT, too. I think it's what.... 2nd Lieutenant when the E-3 thing kicks in? I got up to Captain and it was a blast.
Quote from: JerdenI went to GSAR in Indiana, too. That was pretty fun. That was about the only national activity I did, though. I went to three or four encampments and lots of SAREX's in the summers.
Oh shoot! Stonewall stirs the pot. Pop the popcorn kids and grab a soda. The show is about to begin!
Quote from: Flying Pig on April 06, 2009, 07:38:30 PM
I dont mean to detract, because I know we've beat this up but its in cases like this that I think its beneficial to have military ribbons and badges on CAP uniforms.
Or at least have our members act professionally. When I hear stories of our members going to NSC and having to be reminded not to put apples in their blues shirt pockets, I cringe.
I think it's been said many times that what we are lacking in CAP is effective leadership. Squadron Commanders, Group Commanders, Wing Commanders, Region Commanders, more often than not do not possess the leadership skill or experience that we as an organization need.
However, I think overall our public image is good and the general public (when introduced to us) think highly of what we do (once they see it).
I suppose it could be a factor of our 'secrecy.' Nobody knowing about us makes it difficult for people with the skills we really need to join and stay. I hate hearing less than stellar comments about us and our organization because I know what a great thing we have. I know how great the people can be and how professionally we can get the mission done.
Something I've thought about in the 5 years I've been visiting www.afforums.com. You'll see people who have been members less than a year with 1,500 posts. Like me, they're posting from work. The difference is, my tax payer dollars are paying their salaries. They are on government computers.
That said...I don't care. I'd do it too >:D
I'm just surprised a forum gets through on G-Computers.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 06, 2009, 07:50:56 PM
Something I've thought about in the 5 years I've been visiting www.afforums.com. You'll see people who have been members less than a year with 1,500 posts. Like me, they're posting from work. The difference is, my tax payer dollars are paying their salaries. They are on government computers.
That said...I don't care. I'd do it too >:D
I'm just surprised a forum gets through on G-Computers.
It amazes me the number of children in the Air Force. I expected more maturity from airmen. Granted I have to deal with 25 year old children in this organization from time to time as well.
You expect maturity from an 18 year old Airman? Its like that in the army too. These kids are staright out of High school. We all went through that stage in one manner or another.
People put too much stake in people just because they wear a military uniform. military people are "people" too. The military is a cross section of society. military are no better or worse thananyone else in our nation. Civilians hold military folks to a higher standard and its a burden some military folks choose not to bear.
Quote from: davidsinn on April 06, 2009, 07:56:24 PMIt amazes me the number of children in the Air Force. I expected more maturity from airmen. Granted I have to deal with 25 year old children in this organization from time to time as well.
I chock it up to internet anonymity. It's easy being an internet toughguy and claim you would tell a superior to go eat a [hotdog] if you were told to help out the CAP, but in reality 99% of them would salute and get the job done. Not that I believe for one second AF personnel would ever be assigned to follow orders from a CAP cadet. That's already been discussed.
Quote from: N Harmon on April 06, 2009, 08:24:05 PM
I chock it up to internet anonymity. It's easy being an internet toughguy and claim you would tell a superior to go eat a [hotdog] if you were told to help out the CAP, but in reality 99% of them would salute and get the job done. Not that I believe for one second AF personnel would ever be assigned to follow orders from a CAP cadet. That's already been discussed.
But should that knowledge make us feel better about this situation?
For instance, I fully and openly admit that I am not Pineda's biggest fan, and I was very openly critical of him on the boards. I was glad to see him washed out of the program. But when I met him, I certainly didn't say any of these things. I simply shook his hand and talked with him for a few minutes.
Does that in any way change what I think about how he handled (or mishandled) his authority and position during his time as CC? Not at all. While I was shaking his hand, I still held the exact same position on him. But professionally, I acted as any CAP member would and SHOULD in that situation. I respected his rank and the obligation I have to be professional toward the leader of this organization.
This idea that the USAF only bags on us anonymously really shouldn't make us very comfortable at all. The whole point of anonymity is so one can express his/her mind without fear of retribution while performing in that obligatory professional role. If these members really are bagging on us, then every time they meet you, shake your hand, and tell you that you're doing a great job, what should you believe?
Obviously, the viewpoints of these few members on this board do not necessarily represent the viewpoints of the USAF. Officially, the USAF loves us and respects us. But I would highly, highly doubt that even a majority of individuals within the USAF feel that way toward CAP. Of those in the majority, if they don't NOT like us, they don't really seem to be aware of us.
Hell, the reports I get back from some of our former CAP cadets at the USAFA implies that despite the fact the USAFA has a CAP unit there, very few members, even former cadets, even former SPAATZ cadets (who may award quite a bit of their entry into the USAFA to the Spaatz) won't join due to the negative hype surrounding CAP.
This truly is a "win the hearts and minds" scenario. No matter how many pictures we can get with USAF generals or how many letters of appreciation we get for good USAF missions, in the end, we don't exactly know how many of the USAF actually is willing to stand behind that endorsement of our organization.
I was simply commenting on the maturity of afforums users.
I know HWSRN stands for our former Commander who the current one replaced. (I would write her name in but for the life of would butcher the spelling of it.) But what is the acronym for? (I saw it once or twice when it first was posted but forgot what it stould for.
Here's what I thought it stood for.
He Who Shall Remain Numbered
I know it sounds stupid but It's what I get when I think about the letters. (too many newspaper word jumbles.)
Quote from: ThorntonOL on April 06, 2009, 10:05:14 PM
I know HWSRN stands for our former Commander who the current one replaced. (I would write her name in but for the life of would butcher the spelling of it.) But what is the acronym for? (I saw it once or twice when it first was posted but forgot what it stould for.
Here's what I thought it stood for.
He Who Shall Remain Numbered
I know it sounds stupid but It's what I get when I think about the letters. (too many newspaper word jumbles.)
He Who Shall Remain Nameless
From my experiences back when I was a cadet and observed how our senior members were treated by Air Force personnel, it was more than discouraging. Army, Marines, Navy, and even Seals (I was in San Diego so we had a good mix of bases in the area) all seemed to show great respect to the senior members, and were more than happy to show us around their equipment and facilities. They even treated our senior member officers like comissioned officers and seemed to actually know a good deal about our orginization. However, when I took a trip up to March AFB, the turn around was almost scary. Theres a difference between not renduring courtesies, and absolute disrespect.
A good friend of mine is AF Enlisted, and I never mentioned my CAP service to him, and sure enough he slamed in the CAP Seniors, and threw out the same kind of lies about having to take orders from Cadets. (I think they get CAP NCO's confused with CAP Cadets) He even slammed on the ANG and reserves as well. (Might also be why the ANG gives CAP more respect as they too are used to the crap we get from active duty)
I believe this in part to the fact that the Air Force personnel really have no Idea who we are, and the few that do, don't seem to understand us well enough to understand that they aren't required to rendure any sort or courtesies to us. Maybe they should make a short class during basic training for AF personnel, that would educate them a bit on who we are, and what we do, and their responsibilites, and lack there of when around us.
Final notes, this further stresses the fact that as members of the CAP, we need to recognize that our appearnace and demeanor can affect the way we are viewed by the military and public. We always need to look clean and sharp, especially those who chose to wear the AF Style uniform. We need to act professional, and be professional.
Quite frankly it doesn't matter very much what AF members who have time to spend on a discussion board think about CAP. I doubt they're in a position to have much impact. Granted, it would be better if they held a positive opinion. NHQ public affairs did a survey of the public on this issue -- would be interesting if they also did one of the AF though it probably wouldn't be a high priority for funding.
Bullied kids have a tendency to become bullies. The Air Force gets a fair amount of disrespect from other services, so maybe beating up on the CAP is how some of its members deal with that. :-\
Clearly we have a problem with Big Brother Blue about who we are and what we do.
I have seen some of the AF members behaving in very bad ways that do not reflect the AF core values. I would be very suprised if some of them weren't the same ones on the fourms bagging on CAP. I work in the hospitality field, and no I do not let them know that I am in the CAP. As to what "Big Blue" thinks of us, I have never ever been disrespected by a member of the RM when I am in my CAP uniform. Where is all of this happening
Quote from: RiverAux on April 06, 2009, 11:30:03 PM
Quite frankly it doesn't matter very much what AF members who have time to spend on a discussion board think about CAP. I doubt they're in a position to have much impact.
I disagree. In my 6+ years of CAP experience with almost that much time spent on CAP boards, I haven't noticed a particular divide between what the "real world" CAP thinks about certain issues and what the online world thinks. In both cases, there are uniform arguments. In both cases, there are disagreements about what constitutes hazing. In both cases, there is the typical Hawk war going on between the pro and anti-rangers. I don't think that the difference between online and offline members is professionalism. As far as I have experienced, CAP membership is pretty well represented online.
Although I am not military, I can't imagine why the military would be so different. There are those who enjoy the online environment, and there are those who don't. Without any real reason to assume that those online have a worse opinion of CAP than those offline, then we can assume that the USAF online community is fairly well representative of the USAF, and therefore, we seem to have a problem on our hands with our mother organization.
I suppose to do a truly objective study, we would need to take a good look at a number of USAF-related message boards out there, but from what I've seen, the picture isn't particularly good.
Regardless, whether that individual member who spouts his mouth about CAP has the impact to do anything isn't the issue. The issue is how MUCH of the USAF shares this opinion (or has no opinion) of CAP. Perhaps it is just that those who enjoy CAP's company in the blue uniform don't speak up, but CAP seems to have to defend itself against far more of these attacks than I have ever seen another USAF defend us from. The ONLY online experiences I've had with the USAF have been generally negative or apathetic.
With enough people thinking poorly of CAP, it certainly can have an effect on us. In the long run, it's not so much the piece of paper that SAYS the USAF likes us that's going to mean anything.
It's going to be the effort that the USAF bases put into helping us get uniforms that's going to matter. It's going to be the willingness for USAF personnel to staff certain CAP activities, or fly cadets on O-Rides that's going to matter. It's going to be the effort the local USAF makes in even keeping CONTACT with CAP that is going to matter. Because while a mission can be completed under orders from USAF higher-ups, it's the effort that is put into carrying out those orders that is really makes the difference for CAP. Without that effort, fueled by pride in CAP, we can't really expect our relationship (and therefore benefits) with the USAF to go anywhere but down, albeit slowly, but all the same.
Since all we've got is anecdotes, I'd say that we've got far more anecdotes of AF members who have no clue about CAP than we do those who are going to spout off negative things.
But, I've said it before and I'll say it here again -- it is very obvious that the Air Force doesnt' care one bit about CAP and only does the absolute minimum to keep Congress off their backs. Its not their fault -- we don't really help them in any significant way either through ES, AE, or CP so why should they go out of their way for us. In contrast it is very obvioius that the Coast Guard loves their Aux because the Aux is out there helping them do some of their primary missions.
Maybe if the VSAF program actually gets implemented nationwide and after about 5-10 years of having CAP people regularly seen working around bases, taking some preassure off of some of the AF folks, then something like that will develop and we'll really be considered part of the AF family.
Until then, I just focus on the fhe fact that CAP is supporting federal, state and local governments and the AF is just the agency most of our funds go through. I wish it weren't that way, but thats where we're at.
Its interesting to see what the small sample of posters on that particular site have to say. It is a little frustrating, too. We all would like to have our image to be spectacular. That said, I'd like everyone to consider the source -- you're asking junior Air Force members what they think about an organization they've rarely been exposed to and never educated about. This would be akin to asking college freshmen what they think about the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. You'll get a lot of uneducated drivel and silly banter. Prophesy fulfilled.
I think this is simply another reason why "the Air Force" (and what that entails is a separate discussion) needs to be educated about is Auxiliary from Basic Military Training on. Active, Reserve, Guard, Auxiliary is how we are organized. Just to throw it out there, the bias against CAP from active duty folks is similar to the bias you'll see from active duty folks towards the Guard & Reserve. You'll see opinions in the Guard & Reserve towards active duty as well. The problem isn't isolated and we need not feel bad about it. Just keep doing the excellent job you're doing ... and always strive to do better! Our customers -- such as AFNORTH -- know our true capabilities when the rubber meets the road (or when the angle of attack meets the predominant airflow, as the case may be).
Quote from: RiverAux on April 07, 2009, 02:42:39 AMBut, I've said it before and I'll say it here again -- it is very obvious that the Air Force doesn't' care one bit about CAP and only does the absolute minimum to keep Congress off their backs. Its not their fault -- we don't really help them in any significant way either through ES, AE, or CP so why should they go out of their way for us. In contrast it is very obvious that the Coast Guard loves their Aux because the Aux is out there helping them do some of their primary missions.
But we do help them considerably. The Inland Search and Rescue mission belongs to the Air Force-not CAP! If they were to resume that mission in the numbers that CAP does (I do admit that if it's a military, high visibility, or politically visible, the Air Force does show up), it would cost them a lot more for one mission than we cost for twenty. Imagine a 4 hour search using a helicopter, 4 crewman, and expenses, per diem and a spare crew when the first one exceeds their maximum daily flying time.
Quote from: Captainbob441 on April 06, 2009, 11:08:02 PM
Maybe they should make a short class during basic training for AF personnel, that would educate them a bit on who we are, and what we do, and their responsibilites, and lack there of when around us.
They do get a short class - very short. However, CAP has no impact on their life and as such ranks very low on the "must remember" list you start building in Basic. It was explained to us that you might see a two-striper wearing what looks like Capt's rank but it was OK if he was in CAP and you should go ahead and salute him. However, I would not like to be the two-striper that walzes up to his NCOIC in a CAP uniform and demands a salute...
Just FYI: OSD delegates to the SECAF the authority to approve requests for the use of CAP assets. This is because the use of CAP assets has NO IMPACT on the USAF's Combat Capability. It is hard to get too excited about something that does not affect your combat capability.
I am wondering if most of the negative thoughts about CAP come from those serving where there is not a CAP presence, hence the "I don't know what CAP is and I'll be [darn]ed if I even give them the time of day" attitude. I am surprised though at the comment made from the airman serving at Maxwell. Is it really the mindset at Maxwell that we are nothing and it is easier to just ignore/overlook us? I've been to a lot of training at Scott AFB and they have a very active CAP presence there, and every time I've been there I've been treated with nothing but courtesy. No, I didn't get salutes, and didn't expect any, or want any for that matter. But still was treated courteously. The contempt I see in the posts is disturbing to me.
I spend a lot of time with members of the Missouri Army National Guard...I have done a lot of volunteer work for them for a number of years. Most of them know my affiliation with CAP, what CAP does. Just recently I was attending a funeral. A very good friend of mine, who is a CSM, his father had passed away. There were two Generals, an assortment of Lt Cols, some Majors, and every other rank in attendance. There was not one that didn't come up and speak to me...even some that I didn't know. But they knew me and CAP. Two of the Lt Cols and a Major even giving kudos on how well CAP had performed with disaster relief during our last ice storm and also remarking on other missions of support that CAP has done in the past, including the vast flooding Missouri had last year. I even had one of the Generals, whom I had not seen in four years and at the time he was a Lt Col and I was in a different squadron, recognize me and thank me for the help the CAP had done at Jefferson Barracks for one of his commands that had been deployed to Iraq at the time. He remembered. So I find it hard to believe that there are any military personnel out there that do not know OF us, even if just hearing about us, from joint missions of disaster relief or whatever. I've met people in every service, of every rank. Yes, some didn't know what we do...but there has never been any that has come out and said "I have never heard of CAP."
Ok, rambling has stopped...it's late/early and I think I've lost my train of thought. Maybe just reading those post got to me more than I thought it would.
Goodnight All.
Quote from: Cecil DP on April 07, 2009, 06:51:11 AM
But we do help them considerably. The Inland Search and Rescue mission belongs to the Air Force-not CAP! If they were to resume that mission in the numbers that CAP does (I do admit that if it's a military, high visibility, or politically visible, the Air Force does show up), it would cost them a lot more for one mission than we cost for twenty. Imagine a 4 hour search using a helicopter, 4 crewman, and expenses, per diem and a spare crew when the first one exceeds their maximum daily flying time.
I would imagine that if CAP stopped doing ES or was no longer able to keep up with it, the USAF wouldn't be bearing the burden for too long before pawning it off to someone else. Most of the missions I've been on, we've been working side by side with the local police and fire department, who has to be out there anyway. In some states, there is even another SAR group or two around who I'm sure would be happy to take the ball. As a cadet, it took me less than an hour to get used to using an ELT, and the fire department is already trained in most of the rest of what we learn (safety, evacuation, etc).
Would they be as efficient as CAP at first? Nah. We have it all in place already, and every time a mission happens, we just plug and play into our regulations. Granted, though, they probably wouldn't have nearly as much red tape to cut through, since the nature of any bureaucracy is to slow itself down as time goes on...
Quote from: docspur on April 07, 2009, 07:17:10 AM
I am wondering if most of the negative thoughts about CAP come from those serving where there is not a CAP presence, hence the "I don't know what CAP is and I'll be [darn]ed if I even give them the time of day" attitude. I am surprised though at the comment made from the airman serving at Maxwell. Is it really the mindset at Maxwell that we are nothing and it is easier to just ignore/overlook us? I've been to a lot of training at Scott AFB and they have a very active CAP presence there, and every time I've been there I've been treated with nothing but courtesy. No, I didn't get salutes, and didn't expect any, or want any for that matter. But still was treated courteously. The contempt I see in the posts is disturbing to me.
I spend a lot of time with members of the Missouri Army National Guard...I have done a lot of volunteer work for them for a number of years. Most of them know my affiliation with CAP, what CAP does. Just recently I was attending a funeral. A very good friend of mine, who is a CSM, his father had passed away. There were two Generals, an assortment of Lt Cols, some Majors, and every other rank in attendance. There was not one that didn't come up and speak to me...even some that I didn't know. But they knew me and CAP. Two of the Lt Cols and a Major even giving kudos on how well CAP had performed with disaster relief during our last ice storm and also remarking on other missions of support that CAP has done in the past, including the vast flooding Missouri had last year. I even had one of the Generals, whom I had not seen in four years and at the time he was a Lt Col and I was in a different squadron, recognize me and thank me for the help the CAP had done at Jefferson Barracks for one of his commands that had been deployed to Iraq at the time. He remembered. So I find it hard to believe that there are any military personnel out there that do not know OF us, even if just hearing about us, from joint missions of disaster relief or whatever. I've met people in every service, of every rank. Yes, some didn't know what we do...but there has never been any that has come out and said "I have never heard of CAP."
Ok, rambling has stopped...it's late/early and I think I've lost my train of thought. Maybe just reading those post got to me more than I thought it would.
Goodnight All.
Ok, youare comparing an Airman to a CSM and General Officer. Of course the CSM and General are going to be amiable towards you. The Airman doesnt have to do anything but his job. And please, you are letting this one Airman represent the entire Maxwell AFB? um no.
In my opinion, the reason I thik a lot of junior enlisted (and some junior officers) dont respect CAP or look at it as a joke is because of the CAP people they have come in contact with or the stories they have been told by others.
When they see the over weight senior member in blues they see it as a joke. when they see senior members inuniform and not performing proer customs and curteousies, theysee it as a joke. They do not realize we are a voulunteer organization and are not mandated to salute each other or what not. All they know is they were taught to do that and then they see us not doing it. well, they think its funny. Its as simple as that, No analyzation needed. No deep thinkning prpcess. Its as simple as that.
I agree with what was said earlier. Senor members need to carry themselves in a professional manner, They need to behave in a professional maner. But when youhave soooo many people saying "we are not the military and we dont have to" Well, servicemembers see this attitude and they judge us.
Again, senior ranking people are not going to come out and say this. In the military once you hit 0-4 or E-7, you "have" to carry yourself in a certain way. You cant just come out and say whats on your mind. An E-1 on the other hand. he doesnt care. what are they do to him?
When I was junior enlisted on active duty (Army) I had several buds that were former cadets. They thought I was insane for getting involved as a senior member. Their perception of CAP seniors was that they are fat, lazy and only talk about flying. And of course, most seniors that are not involved with cadets rarely wear any military style uniform.
Look at my squadron. The CC and I are the only two seniors who wear military style uniforms. We have, I think, 50+ seniors in my squadron. Everyone else wears civilian clothes or the polo (with an array of pants, not just gray).
We live in a huge military town with two very large Navy bases. A large percentage of our non-distress ELTs are on one of the two Navy bases. No doubt in my mind the seniors (no cadets) that respond to those ELTs show up in a CAP polo shirt, if that.
If you were the Master at Arms (MA) gate guard and a 60 year old guy comes pulling up in his station wagon with bed head, 2" thick glasses, a blue polo with CAP emblem and a cheesey ID card and said "I'm here to shut off an ELT", what impression would that young seaman have of CAP?
I'm a MAJ in CAP and a CPT in the Army National Guard. There is a CAP squadron in my Group thatironically meets at my National Guard unit. One weekend we had a SARex and I had my Flight suit on with my MAJ rank, well I went to guard drill a few weekends later and apparently someone had seen me wearing MAJ rank, I caught hell from soldiers and one of "my" Army MAJ's. They were asking why in the H was I was wearing major rank. i dont fault them. They dont know about CAP and they dont understand it. I overheard the full time Guard stff who sees this CAP unit every week and they refer to them as the "air patrol kids" They have no idea what CAP is. they just see this "kids" playing military every week. and they see these old fat dudes in flight suits flying the small planes. Thats the image CAP has givne alot of military units.
I think that needs to change. CAP needs to be more professional andin order to do that, CAP needs to be more discrimnating about our rules. Like Isaid onanther thread. We let "everybody" in. We dont need to do that. We need to have hard standards and stick to them. Until we do that,we will conintue to get this attitude from military folks and some civilians.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 07, 2009, 03:57:36 PM
When I was junior enlisted on active duty (Army) I had several buds that were former cadets. They thought I was insane for getting involved as a senior member. Their perception of CAP seniors was that they are fat, lazy and only talk about flying. And of course, most seniors that are not involved with cadets rarely wear any military style uniform.
Look at my squadron. The CC and I are the only two seniors who wear military style uniforms. We have, I think, 50+ seniors in my squadron. Everyone else wears civilian clothes or the polo (with an array of pants, not just gray).
We live in a huge military town with two very large Navy bases. A large percentage of our non-distress ELTs are on one of the two Navy bases. No doubt in my mind the seniors (no cadets) that respond to those ELTs show up in a CAP polo shirt, if that.
If you were the Master at Arms (MA) gate guard and a 60 year old guy comes pulling up in his station wagon with bed head, 2" thick glasses, a blue polo with CAP emblem and a cheesey ID card and said "I'm here to shut off an ELT", what impression would that young seaman have of CAP?
exactly. I agree
I read that thread from the Air Force board. Frankly, I am not at all worried about responses from 18 to 25 year olds who are often tasting what life away from home is like, the freedom and the responsibility for the first time. The ones that are posting negatively about CAP are kids, and are behaving like kids. The postings exhibited immaturity. Don't worry about it.
I would be much more concerned if these were career guys and gals with 15 years under their belts.
But this doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to educate AF personnel about Civil Air Patrol.
I spent a week at wonderful Nellis AFB, Nevada for Pacific Region Staff College last week. We were told at our inbriefing the importance of customs and courtesies and that our uniforms needed to be up to par; we were also informed that we may not get a salute, as it is not required by AD military and to not jack 'em up if they fail to pop off a crisp one. Trolling for salutes was strengstens verboten.
I got a few salutes, which I returned properly, and exhibited proper C&C to several AD AF types much higher in grade than this lowly captain while walking to the BX food court at chow time. And yes, I got caught outside at retreat and gave proper honors. Never once did I jack up anyone lower in grade than I for failing to salute me. I know, it's the ingrained former cadink in me, but it really doesn't take much to pop off a correct salute and give a proper greeting.
Guys, I'm telling you that its all about what we do for individual Air Force members not the uniforms, customs and courtesies, weight issues, or ancient senior members.
The CG Aux has all of those same issues and probably has them worse since they are even less "military" than CAP in a lot of ways.
But because there are Auxies out there helping train new CG recruits, standing radio watches at CG stations, giving other training to active duty and reservists, etc, etc. just about every Coast Guardsman has probably had one on one contact with a CG Auxie at some time in their career and in that contact the Auxie was probably doing something to try to help them out. That is what builds a positive relationship. They may not know much about how the Aux works, but they like what they do.
Airman Snuffy Smith doesn't care one bit that AFRCC calls CAP to do SAR or anything else. That doesn't impact their lives. Until then, most AF members will probably never have a personal interaction with a CAP member. They may see some while there is an encampment going on, but that will be it for most. That being the case there will be little opportunity to build a positive image, but plenty of chances to make a negative impression -- They expect to see someone wearing a military uniform correctly and if they see a CAP member thusly, they're not going to think anything about it. But, if they see one wearing it horribly, that will stick with them.
Quote from: Nathan on April 07, 2009, 03:05:25 PM
Quote from: Cecil DP on April 07, 2009, 06:51:11 AM
But we do help them considerably. The Inland Search and Rescue mission belongs to the Air Force-not CAP! If they were to resume that mission in the numbers that CAP does (I do admit that if it's a military, high visibility, or politically visible, the Air Force does show up), it would cost them a lot more for one mission than we cost for twenty. Imagine a 4 hour search using a helicopter, 4 crewman, and expenses, per diem and a spare crew when the first one exceeds their maximum daily flying time.
I would imagine that if CAP stopped doing ES or was no longer able to keep up with it, the USAF wouldn't be bearing the burden for too long before pawning it off to someone else. Most of the missions I've been on, we've been working side by side with the local police and fire department, who has to be out there anyway. In some states, there is even another SAR group or two around who I'm sure would be happy to take the ball. As a cadet, it took me less than an hour to get used to using an ELT, and the fire department is already trained in most of the rest of what we learn (safety, evacuation, etc).
Would they be as efficient as CAP at first? Nah. We have it all in place already, and every time a mission happens, we just plug and play into our regulations. Granted, though, they probably wouldn't have nearly as much red tape to cut through, since the nature of any bureaucracy is to slow itself down as time goes on...
Nathan:
The USAF cannot "Pawn off" a mission assigned to them by Congress. Inland SAR is assigned to the USAF by Congress, which is why CAP exists as an auxiliary of the Air Force. Yes, state agencies and other volunteer agencies MAY participate, but to the extent that Federal resources are requested, the Air Force is the agency that is required to respond.
Do not get wrapped around the axles over the on-line expressions of a few junior enlisted folks. They also blast uninformed opinions about the Air Guard and the Reserve.
You should hear what the junior enlisted folk in the Marine Corps and Army have to say about the Air Force weenies.
Part of the fun of coming out of the jungle in Honduras was going to Palmerola to listen to the Air Force guys whine about how tough they had it there. They considered Palmerola austere service... we considered it a luxurious R&R center!
That kind of attitude is frequently directed toward volunteers, especially those who fall under any agency with "real" responders. Some SDF's, reserve cops, firefighters, and EMT's are often treated like "red-headed step-children" by the paid folks they supplement or work with. (It's really bad when volunteers are perceived as a threat to full-time jobs.) Sometimes all volunteers are suspect until they prove themselves. The rest of the time the "real" folks are the birds, and the volunteers are the statues. To some level it just comes with the territory. As usual, YMMV.
Absent a coherent marketing strategy at the national level, we need to make the most of every opportunity to prove ourselves. We won't win everyone over, but those we impress might spread the word. The people who see us behaving badly certainly do.
Quote from: wuzafuzz on April 08, 2009, 03:46:19 PM
That kind of attitude is frequently directed toward volunteers, especially those who fall under any agency with "real" responders. Some SDF's, reserve cops, firefighters, and EMT's are often treated like "red-headed step-children" by the paid folks they supplement or work with. (It's really bad when volunteers are perceived as a threat to full-time jobs.) Sometimes all volunteers are suspect until they prove themselves. The rest of the time the "real" folks are the birds, and the volunteers are the statues. To some level it just comes with the territory. As usual, YMMV.
Absent a coherent marketing strategy at the national level, we need to make the most of every opportunity to prove ourselves. We won't win everyone over, but those we impress might spread the word. The people who see us behaving badly certainly do.
I kinda have to call 'bull' on a lot of that.
First off, in most area's I hardly think that the 'SDF' belongs in the same sentence as Auxiliary Police Officers, Volunteer Fire dawgs, and volly EMS types.
Auxiliary police officers, at least we're I'm from, are respected for what they do, but they're not 'un paid cops.' They don't carry, they don't arrest. They're auxilary cops.
Where I am, except for some parts of Western Nassau County, all of the Fire types are vollys, and many of the vollys are also either current or retired FDNY guys.
The EMS system is many areas is becoming paid. So, you'll gave a paid Paramedic or EMT-CC in a fly car either ony duty on his own, or with a pair of EMT-B's. This is simply because the volunteer's can't get out during the day.
However, we're the bull really needs to be called, is that in many systems (such as mine) it's the paid private EMT's who are really the red headed children. As a paid guy, I get more shots from volunteer EMT's then any other.
So, basically, every system is different, and comparing CAP to any other systems or agencies is difficult at best.
Perhaps stories like this can help provide us with some legitmacy where it counts:
'Training takes over' for Guard pilots chasing Cessna (http://www.fdlreporter.com/article/20090408/FON0101/90408053/1985)
Quote"When you hear the words 'Real World' coming over the loudspeaker, there's going to be a little more adrenaline flowing than there would be if it were practice," Lt. Col. Bruce Fischer, commander of the air sovereignty alert with the 115th Fighter Wing in Madison told Gannett Wisconsin Media on Tuesday. "We train for this kind of thing all the time. We do regular exercises using Civil Air Patrol Cessnas pretending to be guys like this gentleman."
Probably a good enough quote/article to be worthy of it's own thread. ;) :)
JThemann,
You live in a unique area. Where I live, ALL police officers carry firearms, make arrests, investigate accidents, and an Auxiliary Officer may very well be the only officer in town at any given time. The terms Auxiliary/Reserve are interchangeable. Some jurisdictions they ride second man in the car, others they are assigned a beat. Many reserve officers also serve on SWAT and SRT teams. They are prohibited by law from being paid and running RADAR or LIDAR for reasons that would take forever to address, but otherwise are not limited in their authority, and do a heck of a job.
95% of the fire service in Arkansas are unpaid volunteers. And most of the full time guys also serve on volunteer departments.
EMS is tiered. In an area serviced by a volunteer Fire Department, volunteer first responders (most of whom are EMT's) are paged at the same time the Ambulance (99% ALS) is dispatched. The only difference with a full time paid fire department is the district engine company is dispatched instead of volunteer first responders.
I am originally from Massachusetts and understand what "auxiliary" means up north but for the record I was an "auxiliary" officer who carried a firearm and had to maintain the same training standards as a reserve/intermittent/part time police officer. I had arrest authority (though somewhat limited) and was treated like a red headed step child.
In my next lesson I will discuss constables >:D
Seriously though New York and the rest of the Land of the Lost does not reflect the reality in the majority of the country.
Just keep an open mind.....
Excuse me Lieutenant, New York isn't the Land of the Lost, it's all of that land to the West, North, and South of us that is!
Kidding of course.
Okay Lou, I'll buy that. Point taken.
Quote from: JThemann on April 08, 2009, 05:32:55 PM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on April 08, 2009, 03:46:19 PM
That kind of attitude is frequently directed toward volunteers, especially those who fall under any agency with "real" responders. Some SDF's, reserve cops, firefighters, and EMT's are often treated like "red-headed step-children" by the paid folks they supplement or work with. (It's really bad when volunteers are perceived as a threat to full-time jobs.) Sometimes all volunteers are suspect until they prove themselves. The rest of the time the "real" folks are the birds, and the volunteers are the statues. To some level it just comes with the territory. As usual, YMMV.
Absent a coherent marketing strategy at the national level, we need to make the most of every opportunity to prove ourselves. We won't win everyone over, but those we impress might spread the word. The people who see us behaving badly certainly do.
I kinda have to call 'bull' on a lot of that.
First off, in most area's I hardly think that the 'SDF' belongs in the same sentence as Auxiliary Police Officers, Volunteer Fire dawgs, and volly EMS types.
Auxiliary police officers, at least we're I'm from, are respected for what they do, but they're not 'un paid cops.' They don't carry, they don't arrest. They're auxilary cops.
Where I am, except for some parts of Western Nassau County, all of the Fire types are vollys, and many of the vollys are also either current or retired FDNY guys.
The EMS system is many areas is becoming paid. So, you'll gave a paid Paramedic or EMT-CC in a fly car either ony duty on his own, or with a pair of EMT-B's. This is simply because the volunteer's can't get out during the day.
However, we're the bull really needs to be called, is that in many systems (such as mine) it's the paid private EMT's who are really the red headed children. As a paid guy, I get more shots from volunteer EMT's then any other.
So, basically, every system is different, and comparing CAP to any other systems or agencies is difficult at best.
As I said, YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary). What you call "bull" is reality in many places whether it compares with your experience or not. My comments were not presented as universal fact, but are accurate and relevant in my experience. As mentioned in the previous post, "just keep an open mind."
Quote from: Stonewall on April 06, 2009, 07:19:02 PM
I came across this today on www.afforums.com.
Discussion: Saluting Civil Air Patrol Officers (http://www.afforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20091)
They're "real military", be advised, there is big boy language...
The Regular Air Force should be careful with this. CAP has a lot of veterans, combat veterans, Purple Hearts and such, just to out of hand say "no I am not going to salute a CAP Officer" is a little over the top. I know of one retired Air Force General that is a CAP Captain now.
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 08, 2009, 11:27:51 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on April 06, 2009, 07:19:02 PM
I came across this today on www.afforums.com.
Discussion: Saluting Civil Air Patrol Officers (http://www.afforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20091)
They're "real military", be advised, there is big boy language...
The Regular Air Force should be careful with this. CAP has a lot of veterans, combat veterans, Purple Hearts and such, just to out of hand say "no I am not going to salute a CAP Officer" is a little over the top. I know of one retired Air Force General that is a CAP Captain now.
So do a lot of Active Duty folks.........does a Purple Heart automatically warrant a salute? Does combat service automatically warrant a salute? Does an Air Force General wearing CAP Captains bars warrant a salute? Not to put down the achievements of a lot of good men and women, but to say that 'the Real Air Force should
be careful" about something like saluting our folks on the off chance they might be a former four star Medal of Honor Winner who once frought in Vietnam is just silly, and exactly the kind of attitude that leads to negative views of us.
Regulations are regulations. Senses of entitlement don't factor into that.'
Maybe our members wearing military badges, wings, and ribbons is a much better idea then I used to think.
As an Air Force Veteran I am a little ashamed of the attitude on that thread.
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 09, 2009, 03:28:42 AM
As an Air Force Veteran I am a little ashamed of the attitude on that thread.
You gotta remember who's posting on that thread. Kids (i.e. 18 and fresh out of Lackland) and people with an axe to grind.
And if you think they don't like CAP, just read what they say about pilots and enlisted flyers.
They're nowhere near any kind of majority, just a few folks with a chip or two on their shoulder.
I respect everyone's service for without their sacrifice we would not be here (or at least we'd be speaking another language)
1. However, that service alone does not rate a salute.
2. When a retired military officer joins CAP and is operating in a CAP capacity they fall under CAP regs. This means they are not required to be saluted by junior officers or enlisted. If said General throws on his regular uniform, say at a the 4th of July parade and I encounter him I'll toss one out.
Saluting has NOTHING to do wih the person. You arenot saluting theperson. youare saluting the rank and reconizing the person's achievements. There are many officers that out rank me that i think are a holes and not that bright. But I repsect their rank.
Its not about the individual person. its about their rank. I try to teach this to young soldiers daily. Dont look at saluting and being subserviant. its not about that. Its not about honoring a person. its about honroing the rank because that is a tradition that we have done for some 200 plus years.
I agree to a point... we do salute the rank. However, we do not salute fire captains, police lieutenants, majors in the salvation army,etc. Insignia alone is not what is saluted. its the position of a commissioned officer (or warrant) in one of the uniformed services of the United States or its allies.
Robert Redford gives a great speech about saluting in the movie "The Last Castle"
The salute is nothing more than a formal military greeting.
I find it more conspicuous by its absence than when it is rendered.
Oddly enough, I've been saluted by AF personnel (security police, E-5 & 6), coming out of a dining facility wearing gray & whites...on McGuire AFB, where NJW has had its HQ for nearly 30 years, as well as a CAP squadron based there....I do not look like "Real Military", middle aged and rather big.
It wasn't that they knew me, I'm only down there twice or three times a year; nor was it the fact that I'm field grade....my own theory was that these NCOs had prior good experiences dealing with CAP members, and this was how they expressed it.
Frankly, it's somewhat embarrassing receiving a salute from RM folks, since they are the ones making the sacrifices and going in harm's way...but if it's a sign that CAP is making a positive impression on at least some in our parent service, then that's a good thing, in my view.
Oddly enough, being a current senior member and former cadet; and a military member, I have willingly saluted CAP Officers, Sea Cadet Officers and State Defense Force officers. Purely out of courtesy and respect.
I'm guessing they appreciate it.
I've worked with many of the AD folks at MacDill and have yet to be treated much differently than they treat each other. Some understand CAP and its missions, others do not. Some ask what we are and what we do, many do not. Quite frankly, it's about what I expect. I've yet to encounter anyone who wasn't courteous, respectful, and polite. Most render salutes even though they are not required (and I suspect many do not know that they are not required). If any of them hold dim views of CAP in private, they certainly do not let it show - they are professionals throughout.
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 08, 2009, 11:27:51 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on April 06, 2009, 07:19:02 PM
I came across this today on www.afforums.com.
Discussion: Saluting Civil Air Patrol Officers (http://www.afforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20091)
They're "real military", be advised, there is big boy language...
The Regular Air Force should be careful with this. CAP has a lot of veterans, combat veterans, Purple Hearts and such, just to out of hand say "no I am not going to salute a CAP Officer" is a little over the top. I know of one retired Air Force General that is a CAP Captain now.
Why isn't he a light colonel? Prior-military folks carry their real grade, up to O-5, so said general should be wearing oak leaves.
The key word is may.
Maybe he just doesn't care, he is an astronaut after all...
Quote from: JoeTomasone on April 10, 2009, 01:43:48 PM
I've worked with many of the AD folks at MacDill and have yet to be treated much differently than they treat each other. Some understand CAP and its missions, others do not. Some ask what we are and what we do, many do not. Quite frankly, it's about what I expect. I've yet to encounter anyone who wasn't courteous, respectful, and polite. Most render salutes even though they are not required (and I suspect many do not know that they are not required). If any of them hold dim views of CAP in private, they certainly do not let it show - they are professionals throughout.
again, youare comparing older more mature air force people with 18 and 19 year old airmen. of course they arent going to disrespect you to your face. they know better than that. But I am sure when the 19 year old airmen get togeher amongst themselves. they talk. You were young once right? ;D
Quote from: flyguy06 on April 10, 2009, 08:49:55 PM
again, youare comparing older more mature air force people with 18 and 19 year old airmen. of course they arent going to disrespect you to your face. they know better than that. But I am sure when the 19 year old airmen get togeher amongst themselves. they talk. You were young once right? ;D
Actually, I've dealt with several young Airmen. Your point is noted; I guess the point I was trying to make is that no one there has ever done anything consciously or unconsciously that gave me the impression that they considered me/CAP inferior to themselves. What they do when I am not around I don't know (and pretty much don't care). <shrug>
This was a good one:
Quote from: gabeCAP Officers don't have souls, therefore, they don't need a rendering of a salute.
I don't know about you guys... but I can't determine if my lack of a soul is the result of my time in CAP, or my time
wasted moderating CAP Talk. :D [/soulless moderanger]
In my 20+ years active Air Force Career, with the exception of one Air Force Base out of 8 US bases stationed at (one twice), I don't recall CAP ever being in the local base newspaper, asking for volunteers or just telling about the organization. Most AF personnel don't come into contact with CAP members (except security personnel at the gates & patrols), because CAP meetings are at night or on the weekends, and the majority of the force is doing other things at those times. I can't recall ever seeing any CAP personnel while I was on duty. So most AF active duty members would be unable to formulate ANY opinion on our organization.
Might good a good idea for various PAO's to release a few stories to the local base newspaper. Otherwise CAP will remain as an invisible organization to the majority of AF personnel, with the exception of perhaps seeing a Civil Air Patrol sign on an on base building.
RM
How many Airmen do you think actually read the base newspaper? When i was a private on active duty, I think I may have seen it in the PX butunless Iwas just really really bored, I never picked it up.
We have a ot of older people in CAP that were in the military "back inthe day" and they like to reminice and talk about "back when I was on active duty" Well, things have changed since then. Young people are different, atitudes have cahnged. Values have changed.
The military of today is not the military of the 60's and 70's.
Quote from: flyguy06 on April 11, 2009, 01:58:28 PM
How many Airmen do you think actually read the base newspaper? When i was a private on active duty, I think I may have seen it in the PX butunless Iwas just really really bored, I never picked it up.
We have a ot of older people in CAP that were in the military "back inthe day" and they like to reminice and talk about "back when I was on active duty" Well, things have changed since then. Young people are different, atitudes have cahnged. Values have changed.
The military of today is not the military of the 60's and 70's.
I have no idea what Army privates read or don't read, other than my opinion is the Army still lowers its' recruiting standards to fill their slots when compared to the Air Force ;)
This hasn't changed much over time --- Most active duty AF personnel have other more pressing concerns (e.g. family, career, deployment, higher education, perhaps transition to civilian life), than to spend time formulating ANY opinion on Civil Air Patrol.
Personally, and organizationally, I could care less what a young airman, soldier, or marine thinks about our organization. >:( You dont' see a ground swell of civilian younger people (e.g. personnel in their 20's) joining CAP, so that won't be any different.
Other than the thread itself getting people fired up, it has no consequences overall to CAP's success or failure (with a few low ranking military members opinions are of CAP).
RM
Quote from: MIKE on April 11, 2009, 03:34:59 AM
This was a good one:
Quote from: gabeCAP Officers don't have souls, therefore, they don't need a rendering of a salute.
I don't know about you guys... but I can't determine if my lack of a soul is the result of my time in CAP, or my time wasted moderating CAP Talk. :D [/soulless moderanger]
I was wondering why I could not see my reflection in a mirror! ::)
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on April 11, 2009, 03:14:43 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on April 11, 2009, 01:58:28 PM
How many Airmen do you think actually read the base newspaper? When i was a private on active duty, I think I may have seen it in the PX butunless Iwas just really really bored, I never picked it up.
We have a ot of older people in CAP that were in the military "back inthe day" and they like to reminice and talk about "back when I was on active duty" Well, things have changed since then. Young people are different, atitudes have cahnged. Values have changed.
The military of today is not the military of the 60's and 70's.
I have no idea what Army privates read or don't read, other than my opinion is the Army still lowers its' recruiting standards to fill their slots when compared to the Air Force ;)
This hasn't changed much over time --- Most active duty AF personnel have other more pressing concerns (e.g. family, career, deployment, higher education, perhaps transition to civilian life), than to spend time formulating ANY opinion on Civil Air Patrol.
Personally, and organizationally, I could care less what a young airman, soldier, or marine thinks about our organization. >:( You dont' see a ground swell of civilian younger people (e.g. personnel in their 20's) joining CAP, so that won't be any different.
Other than the thread itself getting people fired up, it has no consequences overall to CAP's success or failure (with a few low ranking military members opinions are of CAP).
RM
All the Generals and CSM's/CMSgt/Etc all started somwhere right? They don't serve forever do they? If we want to ensure good relations, as best we can, we want to give everybody a good impersion. That means getting them young, ie E-1/O-1.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on April 11, 2009, 01:43:13 PM
In my 20+ years active Air Force Career, with the exception of one Air Force Base out of 8 US bases stationed at (one twice), I don't recall CAP ever being in the local base newspaper, asking for volunteers or just telling about the organization.
In 28 years active, I don't recall ever seeing a member of CAP in uniform or a CAP airplane.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on April 11, 2009, 03:14:43 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on April 11, 2009, 01:58:28 PM
How many Airmen do you think actually read the base newspaper? When i was a private on active duty, I think I may have seen it in the PX butunless Iwas just really really bored, I never picked it up.
We have a ot of older people in CAP that were in the military "back inthe day" and they like to reminice and talk about "back when I was on active duty" Well, things have changed since then. Young people are different, atitudes have cahnged. Values have changed.
The military of today is not the military of the 60's and 70's.
I have no idea what Army privates read or don't read, other than my opinion is the Army still lowers its' recruiting standards to fill their slots when compared to the Air Force ;)
This hasn't changed much over time --- Most active duty AF personnel have other more pressing concerns (e.g. family, career, deployment, higher education, perhaps transition to civilian life), than to spend time formulating ANY opinion on Civil Air Patrol.
Personally, and organizationally, I could care less what a young airman, soldier, or marine thinks about our organization. >:( You dont' see a ground swell of civilian younger people (e.g. personnel in their 20's) joining CAP, so that won't be any different.
Other than the thread itself getting people fired up, it has no consequences overall to CAP's success or failure (with a few low ranking military members opinions are of CAP).
RM
And that is a problem for CAP. We need to recruit more young senior members.
We do need to improve our image. As mentioned here previously, we have senior members whose appearance is lacking and in some cases an abomination. They look like 20 pounds of poop piled into a 5 pound bag. Some smell like the poop and resemble it. We need to police ourselves better. What kind of respect can we expect when the RM sees a member in a stained and rumpled polo shirt and funky grey pants( or jeans or who knows what) who shows up at a military base or search base?
We have threads that go on for pages and pages and days on how to avoid saluting. Every excuse imaginable to avoid saluting has been put forth by some. We have members who fail to return salutes from RM. We have members who do their best to avoid looking or acting anything like military members. And you wonder why we get no respect. When Rodney Dangerfield looks and acts more professional than some of our members we deserve what we get.
Some of you who resemble this depiction will yell and scream and curse me, but the truth hurts.
In my CAP postion as Operations Officer for Space Shuttle recovery I deal with regular AF, Reserve AF, Army and Navy folks not to mention NASA. I have been treated with the utmost respect by all these folks. Some had no idea what CAP was but treated me as an equal. I do my best to look and act the part. The CAP crew that works with me are treated the same. I think part of that is due to selection of personnel. I have tried to select members who look and act professionally (except for one guy who needs a haircut!!) and it has paid off. We have received kudos from 1st AF and NORTHCOM. The AF General in charge has treated me and my crew with the utmost respect and confidence.
Look and act the part and you will notice the increase in respect you get. Before you leave the house, look in a mirror and ask "Does my appeareance command respect?" If no, stay home. If yes, the go forth and act in that respectful manner.
Carry on.
Every year, for 4 years now my squadron and members from my group assist the local airport during the annual airshow.We help out with crowd control, etc. Each year, either the Blue Angels or Thunderbirds perform and we spend alot of time on the ramp with their NCO's.
My honest perception is the following: The NCO's have no idea who we are or what we do or how they should treat us. I make a special effort to get to know their names over the 4 days and offer whatever assistance they need. By the end of the long weekend, the generally seem to warm up, but always maintain a stand off attitude. What the root of it is, I've no idea, but many of them seem simply uncomfortable in my presence.
It can be challenging, going from a position of authority in your day job, or even in your CAP job, to being made to feel like a Pee-On by an 20 year old NCO, but I would not trade this detail. As a matter of fact, it's my favorite event of the year.
The officers and pilots are much more comfortable with us, and the Navy guys especially go out of their way to get to know our guys and thank us. (Which always seems strange to us, since we are the Air Force Aux.) Not saying the AF officers are less than friendly, they are. Just the Navy is more so for some reason.
Meanwhile, we'll do it again this year. I've already told my guys to memorize the names of the officers, and only those who wear the uniform properly and act professionally will be on the detail.
Maybe I should find out what NCO's like to eat and have it laid out in the hangar for them, with a big sign "Courtesy of the Civil Air Patrol/USAF Aux"
On a side not, can we get rid of Civil Air Patrol as our name? I know its a tall order but I'm so sick of people screwing it up and calling us the Civillian Air Pilots, Etc.
Can we just go to USAF AUX?
Its not they are trying to make you like a pee on. Its just enlisted folks dont like being around real officers, and so they really get uncomfortable around CAP officers cause they really dont what to do or how to act. They are not sure if they are supposed to call you sir or what? And even if you explain it to them, they still wont understand fully. It has been engrained in them to salute certain rank and address the people that wear them as sir/ma'am. Its a natural reaction. And the fct that we as CAP officers wear that rank it is natural for them to kind of shy away. the more senior NCO's probably are more at ease with it because they have been around a lot longer.
To your point about changing the name of CAP to USAF AUx. I had used to want that too many years ago, but now I erealize thatif we did that we would definantly have to become more professional andunfortunantly some people in high ranking positions in CAP would not meet the standard to be a part of it.Just my opinion.
When i was in the service I called everyone sir except NCO's, enlisted folks and children. I was around MANY DOD civilians. It's called manners.
Quote from: jpizzo127 on April 13, 2009, 06:51:38 PM
the Navy guys especially go out of their way to get to know our guys and thank us. (Which always seems strange to us, since we are the Air Force Aux.) Not saying the AF officers are less than friendly, they are. Just the Navy is more so for some reason.
;D :D ;D ;D Just gives them one more reason why the Navy is better than the Air Force ...... >:D
Quote from: jpizzo127 on April 13, 2009, 06:51:38 PM
On a side not, can we get rid of Civil Air Patrol as our name? I know its a tall order but I'm so sick of people screwing it up and calling us the Civillian Air Pilots, Etc. Can we just go to USAF AUX?
You just need to be more proactive on educating them - after all we are the Civil Air Patrol - the civilian auxiliary to the USAF.
Quote from: jpizzo127 on April 13, 2009, 06:51:38 PMOn a side not, can we get rid of Civil Air Patrol as our name? I know its a tall order but I'm so sick of people screwing it up and calling us the Civillian Air Pilots, Etc.
Can we just go to USAF AUX?
What exactly would that change?
Many of our SM's and Cadet's can't even get basic C&C down, or uniform wear. Every year I see pictures of Cadets and SM's from our group wearing 'the semi formal' uniform, with a new style service jacket and a bowtie. If we can't even follow some basic regulation, then why should we be 'USAF Aux?'
Look, I'm not perfect. No one is. But it all comes down to supervision.
As a squadron commander, if you supervise your guys, treat them with respect, and correct them on their behavior and uniform, you'll get a good, solid squadron.
Those that do not like that type of organization will quit. And you end up with the cream of the crop. (I know, its not this simple, but it's also not that complicated)
I think CAP has an identity crisis as it wants to be all things to all volunteers.
JThemann, it comes down to the individual squadron commander to be certain his members are adhering to 39-1 and all the other regs.
Its up to the Group Commanders to oversee the squadron commanders, and so on.
It all comes down to proper supervision.
Before anyone passes out, I didn't die and I know I've been MIA for about 18 months. The fact is, I was not available to my squadron because the leadership had become power drunk and began running the program like some SS hitler youth organization. I left because these people were giving CAP a bad name and I wouldn't be associated with what they were doing.
They're gone, I'm back, trying to revive the program and bring it back to a level of respect and dignity. Up until this point, I had never seen a CAP officer demand a salute, troll the local base looking for attention or do anything else to discredit the organization. All I can say is that these people are EXACTLY the ones that AD troops complain about. I wouldn't have believed it had I not been there.
Quote from: jpizzo127 on April 14, 2009, 06:47:51 PM
I think CAP has an identity crisis as it wants to be all things to all volunteers.
Awesome. This is the truest short statement I've seen on this board in a long time, if not ever. The identity crisis isn't just in CAP, its in our parent organization (the US Air Force, if you missed it) also.
I think we would do much better by focusing and consolidating who we are and what we do. We can have several missions, and some might argue that we MUST per our Congressional charter, but that's not to say we can't organize to a more common goal. Well said, jpizzo.