Should smoking be banned while in CAP uniform?

Started by RiverAux, July 14, 2009, 10:16:20 PM

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Should smoking be banned while in CAP uniform?

Yes
45 (39.8%)
No
58 (51.3%)
No opinion
10 (8.8%)

Total Members Voted: 113

Short Field

Quote from: BrandonKea on July 15, 2009, 01:17:19 PM
I'll play Devil's Advocate for a second here, why is it ok that we prohibit cadets from tobacco usage when it may be perfectly legal, but Senior Members may do use it as they want?

No retailer may sell cigarettes or smokeless tobacco to any person younger than 18 years of age. It is also illegal to attempt to purchase tobacco (even if unsuccessful) under the age of 18, but, depending on state law, it may or may not be illegal for a person under 18 to use tobacco products.   Most of the laws state " to sell or distribute".  That means if you give a underage person a cigarette, you are distributing it.   If CAP says it is ok for Cadets to use tobacco, then CAP is supporting Cadets acquiring tobacco illegally.
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

jimmydeanno

Quote from: Short Field on July 15, 2009, 06:21:56 PMIf CAP says it is ok for Cadets to use tobacco, then CAP is supporting Cadets acquiring tobacco illegally.

Those darn 18-20 year old cadets...
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Short Field

If they want to smoke, just have them go to the dark side....
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

DC

If responsible adults want to poison themselves, then I don't think CAP has the right to tell them they can't. I do however, think that there should be restrictions around cadets, CAP facilities, and CAP vehicles.

The 18 - 20 year old cadet issue is a tough one, I don't think it should be permissible for cadets to smoke, especially not around other cadets, but then again, they are still adults with a legal right to do so. Should it come to pass, I would not argue with a ban on smoking while in uniform for cadets, but I don't think SMs should be prohibited from smoking in uniform. Like I said, if they want to ingest tar and whatever other life-shortening, brain-cell killing, cancer generating chemicals that are in cigarettes, then that's their choice.

BrandonKea

Quote from: DC on July 15, 2009, 07:41:26 PM
If responsible adults want to poison themselves, then I don't think CAP has the right to tell them they can't. I do however, think that there should be restrictions around cadets, CAP facilities, and CAP vehicles.

The 18 - 20 year old cadet issue is a tough one, I don't think it should be permissible for cadets to smoke, especially not around other cadets, but then again, they are still adults with a legal right to do so. Should it come to pass, I would not argue with a ban on smoking while in uniform for cadets, but I don't think SMs should be prohibited from smoking in uniform. Like I said, if they want to ingest tar and whatever other life-shortening, brain-cell killing, cancer generating chemicals that are in cigarettes, then that's their choice.

There already is a tobacco usage ban in effect for Cadets, ref the OP.
Brandon Kea, Capt, CAP

DC

Quote from: BrandonKea on July 15, 2009, 07:49:33 PM
Quote from: DC on July 15, 2009, 07:41:26 PM
If responsible adults want to poison themselves, then I don't think CAP has the right to tell them they can't. I do however, think that there should be restrictions around cadets, CAP facilities, and CAP vehicles.

The 18 - 20 year old cadet issue is a tough one, I don't think it should be permissible for cadets to smoke, especially not around other cadets, but then again, they are still adults with a legal right to do so. Should it come to pass, I would not argue with a ban on smoking while in uniform for cadets, but I don't think SMs should be prohibited from smoking in uniform. Like I said, if they want to ingest tar and whatever other life-shortening, brain-cell killing, cancer generating chemicals that are in cigarettes, then that's their choice.

There already is a tobacco usage ban in effect for Cadets, ref the OP.
So there is. Good.

Major Carrales

Just today I learned that the US Military had been considering a "tobacco free" military based on some studies that were done.  However, they have made the decision to refrain from banning smoking in combat areas and the like.

http://www.news14.com/content/local_news/charlotte/611894/pentagon-recommends-tobacco-ban-for-u-s--troops/Default.aspx

The latter info I heard on ABC Radio Network News.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

BrandonKea

Quote from: Major Carrales on July 15, 2009, 08:36:43 PM
Just today I learned that the US Military had been considering a "tobacco free" military based on some studies that were done.  However, they have made the decision to refrain from banning smoking in combat areas and the like.

http://www.news14.com/content/local_news/charlotte/611894/pentagon-recommends-tobacco-ban-for-u-s--troops/Default.aspx

The latter info I heard on ABC Radio Network News.

A few years ago they tossed around the idea of not selling tobacco products on military bases at all...
Brandon Kea, Capt, CAP

PHall

Quote from: BrandonKea on July 15, 2009, 10:06:17 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on July 15, 2009, 08:36:43 PM
Just today I learned that the US Military had been considering a "tobacco free" military based on some studies that were done.  However, they have made the decision to refrain from banning smoking in combat areas and the like.

http://www.news14.com/content/local_news/charlotte/611894/pentagon-recommends-tobacco-ban-for-u-s--troops/Default.aspx

The latter info I heard on ABC Radio Network News.

A few years ago they tossed around the idea of not selling tobacco products on military bases at all...


And the complaints, mostly from the Retirees, was deafening! Not to mention that AAFES/NEX/MCES would take a major hit from the loss of revenue.

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: Rotorhead on July 15, 2009, 01:11:57 AM
Quote from: oak2007 on July 15, 2009, 12:10:46 AM
Boys, this isn't Nazi Germany, It is everyone's constitutional right to smoke if they choose too.

Please, if you would, show me where in the Constitution smoking is specifically mentioned as a protected freedom.

9th Amendment:

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
Another former CAP officer

Rotorhead

#30
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 16, 2009, 12:58:41 AM
Quote from: Rotorhead on July 15, 2009, 01:11:57 AM
Quote from: oak2007 on July 15, 2009, 12:10:46 AM
Boys, this isn't Nazi Germany, It is everyone's constitutional right to smoke if they choose too.

Please, if you would, show me where in the Constitution smoking is specifically mentioned as a protected freedom.

9th Amendment:

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
Nice try, but by that interpretation, prohibiting anything would be unconstitutional.

Besides, that's not what it means. The 9th amendment provides that the naming of certain rights in the Constitution does not take away from the people rights that are not named.
Capt. Scott Orr, CAP
Deputy Commander/Cadets
Prescott Composite Sqdn. 206
Prescott, AZ

davidsinn

Quote from: Rotorhead on July 16, 2009, 01:30:10 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 16, 2009, 12:58:41 AM
Quote from: Rotorhead on July 15, 2009, 01:11:57 AM
Quote from: oak2007 on July 15, 2009, 12:10:46 AM
Boys, this isn't Nazi Germany, It is everyone's constitutional right to smoke if they choose too.

Please, if you would, show me where in the Constitution smoking is specifically mentioned as a protected freedom.

9th Amendment:

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
Nice try, but by that interpretation, prohibiting anything would be unconstitutional.

Besides, that's not what it means. The 9th amendment provides that the naming of certain rights in the Constitution does not take away from the people rights that are not named.

Such as the right to kill yourself with cancer sticks? Although I hate smoking and really hate when smokers light up around me without giving me any thought I'm gonna have to go with Maj. Kachenmeister on this one.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

Rotorhead

Quote from: davidsinn on July 16, 2009, 02:31:06 AM
Quote from: Rotorhead on July 16, 2009, 01:30:10 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 16, 2009, 12:58:41 AM
Quote from: Rotorhead on July 15, 2009, 01:11:57 AM
Quote from: oak2007 on July 15, 2009, 12:10:46 AM
Boys, this isn't Nazi Germany, It is everyone's constitutional right to smoke if they choose too.

Please, if you would, show me where in the Constitution smoking is specifically mentioned as a protected freedom.

9th Amendment:

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
Nice try, but by that interpretation, prohibiting anything would be unconstitutional.

Besides, that's not what it means. The 9th amendment provides that the naming of certain rights in the Constitution does not take away from the people rights that are not named.

Such as the right to kill yourself with cancer sticks? Although I hate smoking and really hate when smokers light up around me without giving me any thought I'm gonna have to go with Maj. Kachenmeister on this one.
You guys are missing the point.

This particular amendment does not give anyone the right to smoke...or do anything else.

It just says that you can't argue that something is prohibited just because it is not among the things specifically listed in the Constitution.

No one here is saying that, so it has nothing to do with the argument.
Capt. Scott Orr, CAP
Deputy Commander/Cadets
Prescott Composite Sqdn. 206
Prescott, AZ

Major Carrales

Quote from: Rotorhead on July 16, 2009, 02:51:48 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on July 16, 2009, 02:31:06 AM
Quote from: Rotorhead on July 16, 2009, 01:30:10 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 16, 2009, 12:58:41 AM
Quote from: Rotorhead on July 15, 2009, 01:11:57 AM
Quote from: oak2007 on July 15, 2009, 12:10:46 AM
Boys, this isn't Nazi Germany, It is everyone's constitutional right to smoke if they choose too.

Please, if you would, show me where in the Constitution smoking is specifically mentioned as a protected freedom.

9th Amendment:

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
Nice try, but by that interpretation, prohibiting anything would be unconstitutional.

Besides, that's not what it means. The 9th amendment provides that the naming of certain rights in the Constitution does not take away from the people rights that are not named.

Such as the right to kill yourself with cancer sticks? Although I hate smoking and really hate when smokers light up around me without giving me any thought I'm gonna have to go with Maj. Kachenmeister on this one.
You guys are missing the point.

This particular amendment does not give anyone the right to smoke...or do anything else.

It just says that you can't argue that something is prohibited just because it is not among the things specifically listed in the Constitution.

No one here is saying that, so it has nothing to do with the argument.

Careful, I once posted some Constitutional questions at one of these CAP forums as was told it was "not a relevant" CAP discussion and had the topic locked.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

Johnny Yuma

Quote from: Ned on July 15, 2009, 12:22:14 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on July 15, 2009, 11:58:54 AMIf someone wants to enjoy a cigarette in uniform, why should I care?

That's a fair question.

Why should you care?

Let's suppose a member has been asked to pick up a visiting CAP VIP at the airport in a CAP van - so the member is in uniform -  but the flight has been delayed a few hours, so the member has some time to kill.

Should you care if the member:

smokes in uniform?

Has a couple of shots of Jack in the airport bar in uniform ?

Plays the slots / video lottery in uniform?

Looks at porn while in uniform?

smokes marijuana in uniform (legal for over 20% of the population)?

Assume all of the above are lawful for the purposes of the discussion.

So when ARE you "your brothe's keeper?"

And when -  to avoid the dreaded "political correctness" - do you simply blow it off?

Great question.

What do you think?

Having a smoke isn't going to impair your driving like drinking and smoking marijuana, BTW your assertion that weed is legal for 20 percent of the population is a falsehood.

If CAP was so concerned with members gambling, why have we had our National Boards in places like Reno, Vegas, etc?

Porn? Okay, tacky.

As an asthmatic nonsmoker myself, we really as an organization have better things to worry about than members smoking.
"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade up on high saying, "Oh Lord, Bless us this Holy Hand Grenade, and with it smash our enemies to tiny bits. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and stoats, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and lima bean-"

" Skip a bit, brother."

"And then the Lord spake, saying: "First, shalt thou take out the holy pin. Then shalt thou count to three. No more, no less. "Three" shall be the number of the counting, and the number of the counting shall be three. "Four" shalt thou not count, and neither count thou two, execpting that thou then goest on to three. Five is RIGHT OUT. Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade to-wards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuffit. Amen."

Armaments Chapter One, verses nine through twenty-seven:

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: Rotorhead on July 16, 2009, 02:51:48 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on July 16, 2009, 02:31:06 AM
Quote from: Rotorhead on July 16, 2009, 01:30:10 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 16, 2009, 12:58:41 AM
Quote from: Rotorhead on July 15, 2009, 01:11:57 AM
Quote from: oak2007 on July 15, 2009, 12:10:46 AM
Boys, this isn't Nazi Germany, It is everyone's constitutional right to smoke if they choose too.

Please, if you would, show me where in the Constitution smoking is specifically mentioned as a protected freedom.

9th Amendment:

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
Nice try, but by that interpretation, prohibiting anything would be unconstitutional.

Besides, that's not what it means. The 9th amendment provides that the naming of certain rights in the Constitution does not take away from the people rights that are not named.

Such as the right to kill yourself with cancer sticks? Although I hate smoking and really hate when smokers light up around me without giving me any thought I'm gonna have to go with Maj. Kachenmeister on this one.
You guys are missing the point.

This particular amendment does not give anyone the right to smoke...or do anything else.

It just says that you can't argue that something is prohibited just because it is not among the things specifically listed in the Constitution.

No one here is saying that, so it has nothing to do with the argument.

If it doesn't guarantee "Anything," why is it in there?
Another former CAP officer

Rotorhead

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 16, 2009, 03:32:25 PM
Quote from: Rotorhead on July 16, 2009, 02:51:48 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on July 16, 2009, 02:31:06 AM
Quote from: Rotorhead on July 16, 2009, 01:30:10 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 16, 2009, 12:58:41 AM
Quote from: Rotorhead on July 15, 2009, 01:11:57 AM
Quote from: oak2007 on July 15, 2009, 12:10:46 AM
Boys, this isn't Nazi Germany, It is everyone's constitutional right to smoke if they choose too.

Please, if you would, show me where in the Constitution smoking is specifically mentioned as a protected freedom.

9th Amendment:

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
Nice try, but by that interpretation, prohibiting anything would be unconstitutional.

Besides, that's not what it means. The 9th amendment provides that the naming of certain rights in the Constitution does not take away from the people rights that are not named.

Such as the right to kill yourself with cancer sticks? Although I hate smoking and really hate when smokers light up around me without giving me any thought I'm gonna have to go with Maj. Kachenmeister on this one.
You guys are missing the point.

This particular amendment does not give anyone the right to smoke...or do anything else.

It just says that you can't argue that something is prohibited just because it is not among the things specifically listed in the Constitution.

No one here is saying that, so it has nothing to do with the argument.

If it doesn't guarantee "Anything," why is it in there?

Because, John, there was a concern  that the document would be seen as a list of the rights people have, and that anything not included was, therefore, not a right held by the people.

However, you can't use it to support the argument that a specific act is Constitutionally guaranteed (which was the claim, remember?), because if you believe that, then every single act not specifically listed would also be protected.
Capt. Scott Orr, CAP
Deputy Commander/Cadets
Prescott Composite Sqdn. 206
Prescott, AZ

JohnKachenmeister

Scott:

Your point makes no sense. ???

Every act IS protected.  You are "Free," remember?

In order to prohibit an act, a compelling state interest must be shown, or the act must be mala-in-se, or an evil in and of itself.
Another former CAP officer

Stonewall

Some people, like me, just hate smoking.  It wouldn't be fair to vote because I'd vote yes (ban smoking in CAP uniforms) because I can't stand it.

My CC smokes in front of and around cadets all the time.  Heck, I was speaking to a potential new cadet with his parents one night and he walked up smoking.  They never came back (not sure if it was the smoking, but they never came back).

See, in my opinion, 99% of smokers have no clue how much cigarette smoking pisses others off.
Serving since 1987.

BrandonKea

I've never been a fan of cigarette smoke, but having grown up in bowling alleys and bars, I've become pretty used to it. And now, having worked in a casino for over 3 years, I'm even more used to it. I'm not a fan, but it's amazing what you get used to after being around it nonstop.

The issue here, getting back on point, is again, should there be an outright ban on smoking in uniform.

Smokers should be aware that their smoking may not be A. a good example to set for cadets, and B. offensive to others in general, as Stonewall pointed out. But, if you can smoke away from others in a designated smoking area, let the smokers be.
Brandon Kea, Capt, CAP