Fox new reports today that Steve Fossett's pilots license and a sweat shirt reported as belonging to him were found on a hiking trail in Mammoth Lakes CA, in Mono County. The local Law Enforcement agency confirmed the license was in fact Fossett's. Hmmmmm, the mystery continues.
Interesting, link to an online article?
Edit - got it on TV
Link?
I don't see any mention on their web site and Google is a goose-egg on a search.
I dont think an article is out yet. It came out as "Breaking News" about 10 minutes ago on the local news. Local being, Fresno County (where I am) borders Mono County. The Fire Capt who found the items while hiking is actually still being interviewed. So literaly, still developing.
Just turned on the national FOX news, they're on commercial and will supposedly give info after the break.
I think this'll be a pretty big story by this evening if its true.
Im thinking I may be searching Mammoth Lakes via helicopter in the next day or two should this pan out.
Now the Chief is putting a team together to start searching within the hour. Ummmm, Chief....just a suggestion, stand by until you get all the info and let the SAR professionals sort this out before you send people to the winds.
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 01, 2008, 04:51:57 PM
Im thinking I may be searching Mammoth Lakes via helicopter in the next day or two should this pan out.
Now the Chief is putting a team together to start searching within the hour. Ummmm, Chief....just a suggestion, stand by until you get all the info and let the SAR professionals sort this out before you send people to the winds.
Reports say within the hour - suit up :)
We'll see. Mammoth Lakes PD is a very small, 10-12 man department that patrols a resort town. This will probably be deferred to Mono County Sheriff. Mammoth Lakes PD probably has a couple officers on the SAR team. More than likely, CHP will send their helo since they cover that area. Fresno County will go if requested, but most likely not.
http://onthescene.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/10/01/has-steve-fossett-been-found/ (http://onthescene.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/10/01/has-steve-fossett-been-found/)
Google Map
This really isn't a stretch for him to have flown that far
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&saddr=38.603611,-119.003056&daddr=Mammoth+Lakes,+CA&hl=en&geocode=FVsLTQIdUCjo-A%3B&mra=ls&dirflg=w&sll=38.17029,-119.07487&sspn=1.371105,2.471924&ie=UTF8&ll=38.22092,-118.553467&spn=5.479693,9.887695&t=h&z=7
Fox news is reporting the Mammoth Lakes Sheriff is leading a team of whoever he can find to go up to the location to look around.
Expect any news coming out of that search to be reported by Fox news, the sheriff is apparently a fan of them.
Just to clarify..
He is the Chief of Police for the City of Mammoth Lakes Police. Mammoth Lakes is a resort town of 7000 people in Mono County. As we all know, the Sheriff is responsible for SAR, not the Police Chief. He is sending his men waaaaaaay outside his city limits. Im sure Mono S.O. is doing what needs to be done, but no doubt, the Chief is going to ride the wave as long as he can.
Fox news is going to be interviewing one of the hikers in the next couple minutes.
I just posted the same general news under ES: guess that the moderator needs to combine them.
I saw the CNN interview and the Chief of Police correctly stated that the Sheriff of Mono County would be the IC on this operation. Just talked to the DO of CAWG and we believe that we will also be called.
Standing by.
Rather than merge, I nuked it 'cause it's covered here.
The hiker found id's and hundred dollar bills off trail along a ridge near the minaret mine. He located these items on Monday. He didn't recognize the name so wasn't looking for an aircraft. The sweatshirt was found yesterday.
Minaret Mine: Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=37.67472%20-119.14861&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wl)
The hiker was trying to make it to the mine but didn't get there so went to the top of a ridge nearby.
Just a caution fellows, please do not speculate about how or what happened. We haven't done that. You can bet that less than positive people have already googled into here and will follow our conversation. OPSEC isn't just for CD and Homeland Security. Take a "timeout" and consider before hitting the post button.
I don't think it can be considered as OPSEC when it's on TV.
Quote from: NCO forever on October 01, 2008, 07:43:49 PM
I don't think it can be considered as OPSEC when it's on TV.
Even if it has been reported on TV by someone in CAP....they may be authorised to talk about it...but you are not.
Sometimes reporters just need an "unnamed CAP member" to confirm something and get it into print.
Go look at what happened Lt Col Ryan and you will see what I mean.
The CAWG/CC sent out an e-mail reminding everybody in the wing to refer all inquiries to National/PA.
He also reminded everybody in CAWG to not talk to the media, period.
I guess the ghost of Lt Col Ryan is still haunting this place.
Wow....CAP isnt even involved and we are already putting out notices like we had something to do with what happened today.
Ditto, on OPSEC, you all hope he is not found in a Grid you searched, I am glad we will have a final answer for his Family and the world.
But I am ready to go, rough area too
I have already volunteered to fly and have a crew available. At 1700L, PDT, no alert for CAWG. Guess that I'll go to the Sheriff's SAR Team and American Legion meetings tonight.
Quote from: wingnut55 on October 01, 2008, 11:21:59 PM
you all hope he is not found in a Grid you searched,
I wouldn't be too concerned. With all of the variables, i.e. sun angle, shadows, ground cover, etc, it's real easy to not see a target, especially in rugged terrain like the search area has.
I'm willing to bet that the grid he was found in was covered at least four times, minimum.
Quote from: NCO forever on October 01, 2008, 07:43:49 PM
I don't think it can be considered as OPSEC when it's on TV.
I should have been more clear. What I would caution about is anything like:
Hey guys, I betcha this is what happened - yadda yadda speculation yadda yadda.
In the am from Newz a da werld = Headline
CAP ANNOUNCED ON CAPTALK - YADDA YADDA YADDALets keep it to just what we've been saying.
Photos of Fosset's found pilot's certificate and a $100 bill:
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gfmXbQn-RFLHSjd8_s23ytiM6OVAD93I69UO1
The news outlets are reporting that they have found possible wreckage. No details on aircraft type or any such thing and authorities are rightfully advising that it could be an unrelated crash.
The UK Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article4866969.ece?Submitted=true) are reporting about conspiracy theories and lost credibility with me with this little gem:
QuoteThe Civil Air Patrol sent up Black Hawk helicopters with heat-seeking equipment
Quote from: davidsinn on October 02, 2008, 12:09:19 PM
The UK Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article4866969.ece?Submitted=true) are reporting about conspiracy theories and lost credibility with me with this little gem:
QuoteThe Civil Air Patrol sent up Black Hawk helicopters with heat-seeking equipment
Are OPSEC is so good none of us have actually heard about the blackhawks yet. ;)
Looks like they found the wreckage:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,431605,00.html
Although, it doesnt say anything about his body being recovered.
Quote from: NCO forever on October 02, 2008, 02:08:50 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on October 02, 2008, 12:09:19 PM
The UK Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article4866969.ece?Submitted=true) are reporting about conspiracy theories and lost credibility with me with this little gem:
QuoteThe Civil Air Patrol sent up Black Hawk helicopters with heat-seeking equipment
Are OPSEC is so good none of us have actually heard about the blackhawks yet. ;)
I'm a FLIR operator on a CAP MH-60. ;D
Quote from: davidsinn on October 02, 2008, 12:09:19 PM
The UK Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article4866969.ece?Submitted=true) are reporting about conspiracy theories and lost credibility with me with this little gem:
QuoteThe Civil Air Patrol sent up Black Hawk helicopters with heat-seeking equipment
Dude... that's... awesome... ;D
We're going to have a bunch of people from England showing up at CAP bases across the country asking to fly in the black helicopters now...
Another story:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-10-02-fossett_N.htm
Quote from: NCO forever on October 01, 2008, 07:43:49 PM
I don't think it can be considered as OPSEC when it's on TV.
Still, specualation in a public forum by CAP members is not a good thing. The previous incident caused a big "poo storm" and we need to make sure that it doesn't happen again. Just be cautious of your opinions expressed here so that they cannot be misconstrued or misquoted and taken out of context.
The Madera County Sheriff announced that the plane made an obvious head on collision into a large rock and that the wreckage was scattered up slop with the engine being found about 300 feet from the impact site. The ID's that were found were likely scattered during the impact or by animals. No body located. Sheriff Andersen reported that the aircraft "virtually disintegrated" on impact.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 01, 2008, 09:55:37 PM
Go look at what happened Lt Col Ryan and you will see what I mean.
I must have missed this.... Details?
Quote from: JoeTomasone on October 02, 2008, 05:18:36 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 01, 2008, 09:55:37 PM
Go look at what happened Lt Col Ryan and you will see what I mean.
I must have missed this.... Details?
Basic outlines....she fell prey to a member of the press from the UK and got her name in the paper with an embarrassing 'quote". Because she was a member of the Nation PIO team and she did not get permission before she talk to this guy....she got fired.
Here on CAPTalk and Cadetstuff her name got dragged through the mud by everyone who assumed she was just another incompetent CAP staffer.
Imagine that!!!
Lots ' experts on this site >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 02, 2008, 02:38:17 PM
Although, it doesnt say anything about his body being recovered.
dude, is been over a year. You arent going to find his body. The animals have been gotten to that. Wonder where the skull is though?
Quote from: flyguy06 on October 02, 2008, 08:29:51 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 02, 2008, 02:38:17 PM
Although, it doesnt say anything about his body being recovered.
dude, is been over a year. You arent going to find his body. The animals have been gotten to that. Wonder where the skull is though?
Is this really appropriate or necessary? To say no body has been found seems to cover it. Most LOGICAL individuals can figure out what most likely has happened to the remains without asking the above. Remember, he IS a person with family who have been grieving at his loss. I fail to see where it is germain or appropriate to inquire as to what happened to his skull. To say the least, it is unprofessional.
Quote from: LtCol White on October 02, 2008, 08:59:25 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on October 02, 2008, 08:29:51 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 02, 2008, 02:38:17 PM
Although, it doesnt say anything about his body being recovered.
dude, is been over a year. You arent going to find his body. The animals have been gotten to that. Wonder where the skull is though?
Is this really appropriate or necessary? To say no body has been found seems to cover it. Most LOGICAL individuals can figure out what most likely has happened to the remains without asking the above. Remember, he IS a person with family who have been grieving at his loss. I fail to see where it is germain or appropriate to inquire as to what happened to his skull. To say the least, it is unprofessional.
Agreed.
According to an article I just read, CAWG overflew the site 19 times during the search but the area was not one of the likely areas where he was expected to be found. I can only imagine what the tree cover and what not looks like.... Hopefully we'll be able to overfly the area again before the wreckage is removed in order to perhaps learn something that might be helpful in the future.
First nobody has the authority to talk about the Mission, many times there was a helicopter, CAP plane and a C130 all in the same grid at the same time.
Holy crap we need a special ribbon for the Fossett Mission, a BS one
Dude,
Take a breath.
We understand you have strong feelings on this topic, but name-calling seems a little beneath you.
Let me refer you back to our Core Values (http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082503081659.pdf).
Take a moment, and re-read #4 -- Respect. It's on page 4.
From the AP:
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gfmXbQn-RFLHSjd8_s23ytiM6OVAD93IL48O1 (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gfmXbQn-RFLHSjd8_s23ytiM6OVAD93IL48O1)
QuoteAccording to an article I just read, CAWG overflew the site 19 times during the search but the area was not one of the likely areas where he was expected to be found.
Can you post a link to that article?
Where did the "19 times" figure originate? Official CAP spokesperson, press release, or another source altogether?
I wouldn't have thought Ryan would be speaking to the media at all, but I just saw her quoted by the Reno newspaper, ""It wasn't the focus of our search because that wasn't where we were told he was going," Civil Air Patrol Lt. Col. Cynthia Ryan said Wednesday."
When she was "fired" was that just from her IO function, or from CAP altogether?
You would think, but we are a Volunteer organization,2B or not 2B that is the question (are we a quasi military group?)
Quote from: D242 on October 03, 2008, 12:15:40 AM
QuoteAccording to an article I just read, CAWG overflew the site 19 times during the search but the area was not one of the likely areas where he was expected to be found.
Can you post a link to that article?
Where did the "19 times" figure originate? Official CAP spokesperson, press release, or another source altogether?
I wouldn't have thought Ryan would be speaking to the media at all, but I just saw her quoted by the Reno newspaper, ""It wasn't the focus of our search because that wasn't where we were told he was going," Civil Air Patrol Lt. Col. Cynthia Ryan said Wednesday."
When she was "fired" was that just from her IO function, or from CAP altogether?
Just her National IO fuctions.
sorry, didnt mean to offend. If the mods want to delete my post, I am cool with that. I was justy staing what i saw on the news. Its cool
"19" seems to be the number of passes all the wires are using, however none of the stories
I have heard indicated who flew the "19".
The press release that just popped up on CAP News has different numbers:
Quote from: CAP News http://www.cap.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&nodeID=6192&newsID=4791
Between Sept. 4 and 16, CAP flew 32 sorties and spent 65 hours in the area where the plane was found. "We were in that area almost every day," Butts said. CAP aircrews were often hampered by wind gusts associated with the Sierras' 8,500- and 11,000-feet elevations.
Quote from: D242 on October 03, 2008, 12:15:40 AM
QuoteAccording to an article I just read, CAWG overflew the site 19 times during the search but the area was not one of the likely areas where he was expected to be found.
Can you post a link to that article?
Where did the "19 times" figure originate? Official CAP spokesperson, press release, or another source altogether?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26976119/
(excerpts follow)
Searchers familiar with the mountainous wilderness noted the many coyotes and other wildlife in the area, and
Madera County Sheriff John Anderson said: "It's quite often if you don't find remains within a few days, because of animals, you'll find nothing at all."
The rugged area, situated about 65 miles from the ranch, had been flown over 19 times by the California Civil Air Patrol during the initial search, Anderson said. But it had not been considered a likely place to find the plane.
Instead, searchers had concentrated on an area north of Mammoth Lakes, given what they knew about sightings of Fossett's plane, his travel plans and the amount of fuel he had.
Spacing - MIKE
Hey we were right about one thing: what did we all say?
"He'll probably be found by a hunter or hiker or something."
EDIT: AP has a pic of the wreck
(http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/US/10/02/steve.fossett.search/art.fossett.wreck.jpg)
Quote from: JoeTomasone on October 02, 2008, 09:50:43 PMAgreed.
According to an article I just read, CAWG overflew the site 19 times during the search but the area was not one of the likely areas where he was expected to be found. I can only imagine what the tree cover and what not looks like.... hopefully we'll be able to overfly the area again before the wreckage is removed in order to perhaps learn something that might be helpful in the future.
I am having trouble keeping the CAP "story" straight.
--They overflew the area 19 times
--They didn't search the area because it isn't purported to be the area he flew off to
--They searched 99% of the area the aircraft could have crashed in
--They turned away a FLIR helicopter who volunteered to search
--They made a call specifically for helicopter with FLIR
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=5711.0
Let's all hope that at least now, late in the game, everyone is in a correct uniform for once.
Spacing - MIKE
Two posts, and two attempts at rabble-rousing. Do you think you might have any less inflammatory posts hiding in your bag of tricks?
YMMV.
Quote from: flyboyike on October 03, 2008, 10:57:17 PM
--They turned away a FLIR helicopter who volunteered to search
--They made a call specifically for helicopter with FLIR
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=5711.0
Let's all hope that at least now, late in the game, everyone is in a correct uniform for once.
I sense a suspension subversion in the Force.
flyboyike
you must fly many missions sitting in front of the TV
First The Sheriff who said 19 times included all of the civilian helicopters that flew in that area, also the 4 blackhawks and 2 c130s.
I was in that grid along with several guys I know take another look at the debris field, the steep angle and oh lets not forget the planes synthetic fabric was melted off from the flash fire.
In short the Aircraft was pulverized, that means little tiny sections of aluminum.
don't worry flyboy you too can get maybe 2 missions in your career in CAP, I have 20 in three years, and after every one i review and work to improve on the mission,
Quote from: wingnut55 on October 04, 2008, 05:05:23 AM
flyboyike
you must fly many missions sitting in front of the TV
First The Sheriff who said 19 times included all of the civilian helicopters that flew in that area, also the 4 blackhawks and 2 c130s.
I was in that grid along with several guys I know take another look at the debris field, the steep angle and oh lets not forget the planes synthetic fabric was melted off from the flash fire.
In short the Aircraft was pulverized, that means little tiny sections of aluminum.
don't worry flyboy you too can get maybe 2 missions in your career in CAP, I have 20 in three years, and after every one i review and work to improve on the mission,
OK I'll take your word on it.
I hesitate to ask what happened on your first "mission" and "review to improve" seeing what happened on the second "mission".
I flew as a scanner in that area during the search. That area is primarily granite walls with some deep gorges. Not to mention, I recall the turbulence being eye opening as well. It was the first and only SAR mission, law enforcement or CAP, that I have ever been on where I flew with a bag in my hand. We would have had better luck finding a scattered edition of the Sunday paper.
I Will tantalize you with the fact that there will be some things comming out that will be interesting for anyone involved in searching under a 'multiple command system" with it's screwed up command system
IMHO......
IF and when CAP falls into a multiple command system, the CAP IC will most likly fall into an Agency Liasion role within that command system.
and then work as the CAP IC from there.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rockwellb/sets/72157607737959209/
Some photos posted on Flickr by one of the search members. And before all of the legal scholars start up, nobody violated any OPSEC by doing this. All images were cleared by Madera S.O.
Personally, I would like to know if the site showed up on any of the photos flagged by participants in the "internet search" group. Anyone seen anything about that?
Im sure that will come up. According to the search team, a burn spot was about all that could have been recognizable. Having flown in that area several times, I can tell you that entire area is nothing but shades of black and grey.
QuotePersonally, I would like to know if the site showed up on any of the photos flagged by participants in the "internet search" group. Anyone seen anything about that?
That was along the same lines as a question I'd asked back in the thread that was running during the search. I'm curious as to how much weight any such flagged phots were given in directing the search in the first place. How will this outcome influence future use of that technology?
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on October 05, 2008, 03:40:40 AM
IMHO......
IF and when CAP falls into a multiple command system, the CAP IC will most likly fall into an Agency Liasion role within that command system.
and then work as the CAP IC from there.
I'd say it depends on the scope of the mission. In this case, CAP was a much larger part of the response (than "normal"), and IMHO a unified command might be more appropriate.
Quote from: wingnut55 on October 04, 2008, 09:03:12 PM
I Will tantalize you with the fact that there will be some things comming out that will be interesting for anyone involved in searching under a 'multiple command system" with it's screwed up command system
You mean unified command. i agree it is a screwed up system. Comming from a military background and cant phathom the logic of having more than one guy in charge.
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 05, 2008, 04:20:55 PM
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rockwellb/sets/72157607737959209/
Some photos posted on Flickr by one of the search members. And before all of the legal scholars start up, nobody violated any OPSEC by doing this. All images were cleared by Madera S.O.
Wow. I didnt know he had an ATP and a Citation type rating. Thats cool
Was CAP involved or ask to be involved in this Search operation?
No. Considering my Sq. and Merced are a 20 min flight from that area. It pretty much ended as soon as it started. Madera SO sent their SAR to the location via helicopter, and that pretty much wrapped it up.
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 06, 2008, 04:08:54 PM
No. Considering my Sq. and Merced are a 20 min flight from that area. It pretty much ended as soon as it started. Madera SO sent their SAR to the location via helicopter, and that pretty much wrapped it up.
But truly, what role would CAP play at this point?
Having flown actual missions against targets later found to be no larger than that of a crumpled washing machine - I gotta agree with the veteran SAR guys. The photos verify the challenges the searchers estimated last year. Little or no fabric was left. Fires had dotted tens of thousands of spots throughout this part of CA. There's no way you would have seen this on a detailed google map image.
The actual PD was not in any searcher's favor.
CAP could have helped searc the area for items as these searchers did.
Given the terrain involved, and the number of people already involved outside of CAP, what use would a herd of less experienced CAP folks been? You can only stuff so many people in a small area before they're tripping over each other.
"phathom"? I think you might be too young to have been a "Phantom Phixer".
ooooooooook
Quote from: flyguy06 on October 06, 2008, 07:16:43 PM
CAP could have helped searc the area for items as these searchers did.
Don't be fooled by the lack of terrain relief on the google earth images. Remember what time of year we're in, and how high and remote that place is. The teams were rotary-wing inserted at about 10,000 MSL in very unpredictable weather conditions. The initial team went 2500' vertical and six miles from the first LZ to get there.
Unless there's a special CAP arctic-mountain-climbing-ranger-SAR team I don't know about.....
Just thought of something...
If you're easily annoyed by some of the griping when teams have to walk across a parking lot......
Why not.... It's only ten miles in two feet of fresh snow.
hehe...
Latest news is they got most of the debris and had to terminate all efforts until next years' thaw. Two feet of snow fell over the weekend.
Winter is upon us...
wow. I didnt know the terrain was that bad. I have never been to California. I was just wondering. Thanks.
Thats the heart of the Sierra's. People go missing in that area and are never found.....case in point. I have been on a SAR or two up there, and the weather can change in seconds. As they said, I was flying over in that area today, and the snow is on the ground. This will have to wait for next spring. Im now waiting for the SAR to go rescue treasure hunters.
What many dont realize too, is that there are still glaciers up there also.
Here are two topo maps. Each line is a 50 foot elevation change. The closer they are, the steeper it is. The view is at a bearing of @ 30° true.
#1 - vertical look
(http://members.cox.net/dragnd/topo1.jpg)
#2 - looking at angle 15° up from vertical. There is no vertical exaggeration.
(http://members.cox.net/dragnd/topo2.jpg)
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 07, 2008, 07:09:00 AM
What many don't realize too, is that there are still glaciers up there also.
Wow, glaciers? Cool!
(Get it, cool?...like they are ice, so colder than the surrounding area?...heh) ;D
If you enable Google Earth's topo features and turn the globe's angle properly you can see how extreme the
terrain is as well.
I understand from the California Wing DO that there was a Radar track for Steve Fossett and it was given to Nevada Wing the second day of the search. Looks like Nevada never sent anyone there and later 20 aircraft flew the grid without success.
Why would Nevada send anyone? Its in well inside California.
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 07, 2008, 04:59:07 PM
Why would Nevada send anyone? Its in well inside California.
Sounds like a 'what we have here is a failure to communicate'* problem. As I understood it, the mission base was in Nevada, but utilized both CAWG and NVWG assets. But now we know that Fossett met 'cumulogranitus' in some pretty rugged and wooded terrain which was difficult to fly around in, let alone spot.
*
Cool Hand Luke
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 07, 2008, 04:59:07 PM
Why would Nevada send anyone? Its in well inside California.
As I understand it, Nevada was in charge of California CAP resources as well as being the only CAP searching in California for the first two days. The DO is saying that NVWG CAP had the radar track but ignored it and never passewd it on to CAWG. They could have flown it long before CAWG was involved.
Than again the DO says CAP flew the grid 20 or so times and never even saw and reported a burn or debris.
I did not fly or do anything in the Fosset Search...but I have talked to several people who both worked the mission base and flew missions. To say that the command structure for that search was screwed up is an understatment.
We had two wings that had communication/command issues, we had USAF aircraft, we had NV and CA state/county aircraft and we had a lot of 'volunteers" who were making it very hard to manage the search.
I am not pointing fingers at anyone....just saying that it was a very difficult search to manage.
As far as flying the ATC radar track.....that profile was flow....several times. I even flew it as a training mission about six weeks after the search was called off.
OK iof it was screwed up
This is where the CAP Wings NEED to get on board an start establishing a CLEAR line of who's doing what
The finger pointing banter of CAP has already pointed out that everyone else is screwed up BUT them is getting REAL old.
Time for sand table exercises leading up to full scale and functional exercises involving ALL agencies.
CAP had better get it together between Wings and start sitting in with EVERYONE else in the SAR world
This forum completely assures me that CAP is indeed in need of a complete overhaul. The 1940's sub chasing mentality has to be forgotten. We are new days or is it DAZE??
COmm and Command issues?? Get it ironed out at the tabletop exercises, functionals,drills, get with the Sheriff and the EM's of the operational counties.
From here in the Midwest and reading all this....... I have been in the area fighting fire. IT IS difficult terrain for both ground and air ops. Sure sounds like the CAP AOBD couldn't get their own way with all the other air assets in the area... Where was CAP in all the air ops briefs??? Did they think they were running the show entirely?? More reason, after all these posts, that it seems CAP needs to GET involved with others!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But like an earlier post is there a CAP mountain, ranger, ski patrol, SAR extraordinaire outfit out there?? Doubt it
Until CAP starts accepting training with others in different areas of operations.....ACCORDING TO ICS and NIMS type training and not just "internet" training, wea re doomed to work with ourselves and continue to chirp about OTHERS shortcomings rather than ourselves. What was the composition of the command structure?? I for one, if a member of my family was gone , lost, downed, would welcome all those air assets from ALL those other players..wazzza matter did not like all those others in the SAR sandbox??
How come other agencies aren't saying all this CAP tripe?????
Sure looks like more training for CAP is in store. Just looking at that topo sure indicates to me everybody needs the training and that probably won't guarantee saves.
Better hope the Fossett family isn't reading this ICS ignorant website... CAP has ALOT to learn , Also!!!
Quote from: SARPilotNY on October 07, 2008, 05:35:27 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 07, 2008, 04:59:07 PM
Why would Nevada send anyone? Its in well inside California.
As I understand it, Nevada was in charge of California CAP resources as well as being the only CAP searching in California for the first two days. The DO is saying that NVWG CAP had the radar track but ignored it and never passewd it on to CAWG. They could have flown it long before CAWG was involved.
Id have to check my dates, but I believe I was in Bishop the day after he went missing. Might be wrong. I never saw anyone from NV searching the Owens Valley.
As stated in several posts, the area was searched several times whether or not the radar trackin was made available. Due to the severity of the crash and the terrain there were no discernible traces of the crash. Mr Fosset is the one who was flying an unfamiliar aircraft, without a flightplan, and without telling anyone where he was going or how long he's be gone.
Quote from: Cecil DP on October 07, 2008, 09:08:19 PM
As stated in several posts, the area was searched several times whether or not the radar trackin was made available. Due to the severity of the crash and the terrain there were no discernible traces of the crash. Mr Fossett is the one who was flying an unfamiliar aircraft, without a flightplan, and without telling anyone where he was going or how long he'd be gone.
Give that man a Pabst Blue Ribbon! (Or other potent potable...) ;D
If you're buying it Johnny Walker Blue. If I'm buying it's Sam or Guiness on tap.
QuotePersonally, I would like to know if the site showed up on any of the photos flagged by participants in the "internet search" group. Anyone seen anything about that?
According to the searchers on Google Earth, none of the updated high-res imagery for the Google Earth or InternetSAR searches included the area where the plane was found. This is being discussed in the Google Earth Community here:
Fossett Search Google Earth (http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1056636/page/0/fpart/190/vc/1)
This link goes to page 190 of the "search" where the first post regarding the find was made. The CAP and SAR bashing reaches a climax about page 225 and as of now the last page is 232, but everyone's probably in bed. And people think CAPTalkers can drag out a discussion.
Mike
But the guys here who seem to know what happened with the command structure.
try this
CAP screwed up big time on this from the highest levels, still after one year we have not done a 'POST" mission assessment.
1. Who were the key players?
2. What did the Various civilian agency's think of CAP?
3. How did the Governor of Nevada authorize the expense of $650,000,000 for a personal friend?
4. How much information was withheld from California CAP or delayed?
5. Why do we have state CAP Fiefdoms?
Quote from: wingnut55 on October 08, 2008, 08:21:20 AM
CAP screwed up big time on this from the highest levels...
And this is news because why? And you wonder why many folks look at CAP as a joke? Just look at some of the posts here!
Im not really seeing how we "screwed up". There were issues that needed to be dealt with at times, however, for a group of volunteers from all over the region to come together at a moments notice and do what we did I think was pretty amazing.
As far as the Nevada Gov spending money, thats not a CAP issue, nor should it be anything CAP needs to be concerned about. Im sure there are people in NV state government who are aware of it. I think you meant $650k, not $650 million right?
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on October 07, 2008, 09:34:41 PM
Quote from: Cecil DP on October 07, 2008, 09:08:19 PM
As stated in several posts, the area was searched several times whether or not the radar trackin was made available. Due to the severity of the crash and the terrain there were no discernible traces of the crash. Mr Fossett is the one who was flying an unfamiliar aircraft, without a flightplan, and without telling anyone where he was going or how long he'd be gone.
Give that man a Pabst Blue Ribbon! (Or other potent potable...) ;D
Pabst and potable are a contradiction in terms much like honest politician.
For those of you who are interested, there is collection of photos of the crash site posted on www.flickr.com. About 100 pictures, which should give you a good feel for what was left of the aircraft and the terrain over which folks had to search.
In light of comments further above, about the handling of the radar track:
Quote from: Cecil DP on October 07, 2008, 09:08:19 PM
As stated in several posts, the area was searched several times whether or not the radar trackin was made available. Due to the severity of the crash and the terrain there were no discernible traces of the crash. Mr Fosset is the one who was flying an unfamiliar aircraft, without a flightplan, and without telling anyone where he was going or how long he's be gone.
Am I interpreting this comment correctly?
Fossett is to blame, because if he'd filed a flight plan, that radar track would've been a factor in the search planning, but since he didn't file, the radar track was not considered. CAP is thus absolved of sin in not considering that radar track provacative enough to have searched the area more thoroughly than they did.
Is that what you're saying?
Quote from: D242 on October 09, 2008, 09:10:32 PM
In light of comments further above, about the handling of the radar track:
Quote from: Cecil DP on October 07, 2008, 09:08:19 PM
As stated in several posts, the area was searched several times whether or not the radar trackin was made available. Due to the severity of the crash and the terrain there were no discernible traces of the crash. Mr Fosset is the one who was flying an unfamiliar aircraft, without a flightplan, and without telling anyone where he was going or how long he's be gone.
Am I interpreting this comment correctly?
Fossett is to blame, because if he'd filed a flight plan, that radar track would've been a factor in the search planning, but since he didn't file, the radar track was not considered. CAP is thus absolved of sin in not considering that radar track provacative enough to have searched the area more thoroughly than they did.
Is that what you're saying?
What I'm saying is that Fosset was unfindable for all the above reasons. That if he had used common practices like filing a flight plan the wreck may have been found sooner. I'm also saying that he screwed up royally that day and that whatever mistakes were made didn't have any effect on his survival. The fact of the matter is that if Fossett hadn't been rich and famous the search would have lasted for a 3-4 days maximum. with no difference in the outcome.
QuoteThe fact of the matter is that if Fossett hadn't been rich and famous the search would have lasted for a 3-4 days maximum. with no difference in the outcome.
No, it probably would have gone a week or two, which is not at all unusual for CAP. CAP approached this mission exactly as it would have for anyone. It was all the other agencies that jumped on board and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars that were not following their normal protocols.
For those who are jumping on the bandwagon of his not having filed a flight plan: have you ever filed a flight plan when you didn't know exactly where you were going? It is absurd to try to file a flight plan that essentially says: I'm going over yonder and fly around for awhile and then go somewhere else and fly around for awhile. You file a flight plan from point to point or you file for a particular area for a specified time. Really doesn't work for a flight where one is going to just wander around, enjoying the scenery. The real big question in my mind is why did he head up into the mountains? That certainly was the opposite direction from his takeoff point.
BTW: from looking at the photos and from what I know about the terrain, it is almost certain that none of the crash site could have been identified from 1000 ft AGL: which is the standard CAP search altitude. I understand that the Huey which extracted the little bit of wreckage had a hard time finding the site on his second trip into the area. Identified it by the orange shirts on the search crew.
For the sake of credibility, I have about 300 hours searching in those mountains.
QuoteThe fact of the matter is that if Fossett hadn't been rich and famous the search would have lasted for a 3-4 days maximum. with no difference in the outcome.
I have to disagree with that, and agree with RiverAux. The last search I was on lasted for two weeks, and the find was made only a few hours before AFRCC was going to pull the plug. Similarly, the pilot had used no transponder, and not even talked to ATC after takeoff. He may have filed; I don't recall specifically, but his intended destination was known. He was neither rich nor famous.
QuoteWhat I'm saying is that Fosset was unfindable for all the above reasons.
That may be entirely true. We didn't know that for certain until just a short time ago, and we certainly didn't know it last year on Labor Day.
QuoteThat if he had used common practices like filing a flight plan the wreck may have been found sooner. I'm also saying that he screwed up royally that day and that whatever mistakes were made didn't have any effect on his survival.
The wreck may have been found sooner had he filed. Maybe not.
What bothers me about what I've read here, is that an important piece of information, that may have led to finding the wreck sooner, was apparently mishandled between two CAP wings and any other agencies involved, and that your comment doesn't seem to acknowlege the problem that indicates. What if the next guy that fails to file a flightplan survives the crash? Do you let him bleed to death out there because he didn't "follow common practices", or do you take the lessons you learned here and try to improve your performance?
I don't see anything in your posts, either the first one I quoted, or your most recent reply, that indicates that you've considered that the
possibility existed during the search, that he was alive, and that the shortcomings in the command of the search might've allowed him to die. You just reiterated that it was he who screwed up, and justified that by pointing out that the end result would be the same.
When I joined CAP, and when I answered the call to go and search, it wasn't just to find those who'd been diligent enough to do everything right. It was to try and save somebody's life, period.
I've defended CAP at other places on the internet, to critics who see CAP in the same light as "Civilain Pilot". I haven't defended you as flawless, but as much as I felt was justified. I'm now wondering whether they're more right in their criticsm than I gave them credit for...
Spacing - MIKE
QuoteThe real big question in my mind is why did he head up into the mountains? That certainly was the opposite direction from his takeoff point.
I'm no longer in CAP, so I can say this without getting myself or anyone else in trouble...
Maybe, given the same set of circumstances, and motivations that were cited as possibily indicating he
faked his own death (no flight plan, no survival gear, no ELT watch, etc., and financial troubles, marital troubles, whatever...), maybe he
intended to never return. High speed, hard impact into terrain by a highly experienced pilot.
Maybe it was a suicide.
Don't anybody agree with me. I don't want to see anyone getting into trouble. And it's only wild speculation on my part.
But think about it....
Quote from: D242 on October 10, 2008, 01:23:33 AM
Maybe it was a suicide.
Unless he left a letter or told someone, there is only one person who knows the truth, and that is buried with him... but like everything that is a valid hypothesis.
Bosshawk,
you are absolutely correct about a flight plan. Heck, for low flying pilots, the Eastern Sierra Jet Streams determine your final destination (and Steve Fossett knew that).
D242 & Pumbaa,
Here's my hypothesis: ( I have also trekked this region since 1968)
On September 3, 2007, who was witness to a low flyby in the Devils Post Pile quadrangle? Did anyone hear the plane or see the flash fire (and smoke from 2 dozen scorched pines) from within a 4 mi. radius of one of the most popular walkabout hiking destinations?
Is September 3, 2007 that actual Date of Fate?
BTW, how do a stack of C notes & I.D.'s withstand (and commune) for 13 months in extreme conditions @ 10,000 ft elev?
If animals are to blame, then the Den or Lair (& Steve) cannot be far away.
Quote from: highplanesdrifter on October 10, 2008, 03:14:29 AMBTW, how do a stack of C notes & I.D.'s withstand (and commune) for 13 months in extreme conditions @ 10,000 ft elev?
The pilot certificate was laminated. They do pretty well going through the laundry, so just being outside probably wouldn't be too much worse.
Money is pretty rugged stuff, being cotton and linen based, vice the cellulose of normal paper. The money from the
D.B. Cooper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._B._Cooper) hijacking lasted in the Oregon woods over 8 years.
I think we should just contract with "TEAM AMERICA WORLD POLICE" for all our SAR and Homeland Security Missions, it would be much Cheaper, and they have cool Uniforms, and they would have found him within hours or just blown up the mountain looking
To those who believe that Steve Fossett didn't need to file a flight plan and acted responsibly, consider these facts:
1. He was not very familiar with the area he was flying in.
2. He was not very familiar with the type of airplane he flew.
3. He was not, despite his world records and soaring experience, very familiar and adept at mountain flying, and in particular, the Sierras.
4. He was flying low and slow, in mountains. While mothers way caution their sons and daughters "Don't go too high or too fast" pilots know that that's the safest way to fly.
5. Weather in the Sierras changes unpredictably, and while there are reports of sunny weather in the morning when he departed, we're reading now of reports of thunderheads where he crashed.
6. The aircraft he was flying wasn't designed to fly cross-country. It's horsepower and weight were probably about half of the single engine Bonanza that I fly. At 10,000 feet, it's performance was marginal at best. To cross those mountains where he crashed he should have been at least 12,000 and probably at his age on oxygen.
7. He should have filed a flight plan for the portion of the flight where he knew he was going, or obtained flight following for whatever portion that ATC had radar coverage, or told someone responsible his route of flight. I loved watching Sky King as a boy, but the idea of just taking off and flying over the Sierras with no flight planning is television.
I will never set any world records. But I can tell you this. When I fly with my family over the Sierras, (1) I fly in a Bonanza which is a high performance airplane that I am familiar with and know its flight characteristics, (2) I make sure the weather is good and the winds are no more than 25 kts, (3) I fly high, at least 2,000 feet over the mountains, and (4) I file a flight plan or obtain flight following for as much of the flight as I can. To do otherwise would be reckless, which is what Mr. Fossett was as he apparently was flying low and slow in mountains with gusts and down currents, in an airplane that was underpowered and too light weight for heavy duty cross country mountain flying, without telling anyone where he was going.
Bob
After reading more of these posts
I come to the realization they are alot of other (CAP or not) pilots that are not doing the agency blame game like a few here
The pilots with the experience can teach ALOT to us folks who aren't mountain drivers...
I, being a pilot , in CAP, former Emergency Management type can see the merits of the folks not blaming the agencies and telling us the other facts.
Here's one fact for you CAP'ers stilll bent on agency bashing...... Apparently CAP has had its day in the dirt on this mission and apparently not all were playing with a full deck nor playing well with each other.
Let this be a lessons learned for all involved and if CAP members continue to blame "other agencies" and volunteers, just remember when you siut up for the next mission... this may be a EM, Sheriff, or other agency driven search, pilots with or without a flight plan, a pilot with plenty or none at all mountain flight experience.
CAP best start doing it best to work with others.... apparently some in CA and NV have some learnin' to do
Quote from: heliodoc on October 10, 2008, 05:53:00 AM
After reading more of these posts
I come to the realization they are alot of other (CAP or not) pilots that are not doing the agency blame game like a few here
The pilots with the experience can teach ALOT to us folks who aren't mountain drivers...
I, being a pilot , in CAP, former Emergency Management type can see the merits of the folks not blaming the agencies and telling us the other facts.
Here's one fact for you CAP'ers stilll bent on agency bashing...... Apparently CAP has had its day in the dirt on this mission and apparently not all were playing with a full deck nor playing well with each other.
Let this be a lessons learned for all involved and if CAP members continue to blame "other agencies" and volunteers, just remember when you siut up for the next mission... this may be a EM, Sheriff, or other agency driven search, pilots with or without a flight plan, a pilot with plenty or none at all mountain flight experience.
CAP best start doing it best to work with others.... apparently some in CA and NV have some learnin' to do
Again, CAP needs to learn to fix it's own issues before casting stones at others.
Starting with the issue of one wing not being able to use another Wing's repeaters during the mission.
Well now
I was wondering when that was going to be brought up?
If you remember our efficiency in the grid was probably diminished 30% because we had to many times leave the grid and pop up to an altitude that the high bird could hear us on the freq. many times the high Bird went behind a peak or we did and it got nasty, 30 minute check-in time. We had some real nasty issues that has yet to be addressed. Many of us are really disenchanted with an obvious lack of leadership from national on these types of issues. I am surprised (Pleasantly) that we did not lose an aircrew. Yet have a wing 'Miss spend" $1,000 in training funds and heads will role. It makes me sick.
I am not throwing arrows at one wing, I flew for a week in another State and our radio could not work in that state (simplex) it seemed their radio Freq was not the same, and before anyone gets mad at me we had a plane from NM that could not communicate either.
does anyone know whether ot not they have identified the remains yet?
Interesting series of photos from some folks at the crash scene...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rockwellb/sets/72157607737959209/show/
That's some pretty rugged terrain there, and judging by the condition of just the engine block, I doubt that we'd have spotted that from the air. Ever.
Oh, I would give us a half-way decent chance as it looks like pretty sparse forest cover though the terrain would have been a bear.
In the previous link to the Flickr site photos, drop the "show" from the end of the link and the photo album can be seen without viewing it as a slideshow (as posted back on page 4 of this thread). :angel:
To add interest to this discussion, after Fossett's plane was found, a pilot-photographer realized he'd flown near the area this past June. He reviewed his photos and found one that includes the location where the crash site was. He makes no claims of being able to see the wreckage in the photo, but he does think the trees that burned are visible.
This is an overall photo of the area and definitely includes the crash site. Fossett's plane was located in the lower quadrant of the photo. It's a bit dark, but the photo can be lightened in your favorite photo editor. Remember to download/view a larger size image. This photo shows what the search area looks like from a light plane.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jw4pix/2910859368/in/set-72157606655477494/
This shows annotated views of his oblique angle photo next to a vertical perspective image from Google. The Google photos are a couple of years old and there was no hi-res imagery of this area made available during the Internet and Google "searches." Which of course just fuels the conspiracy theorists.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jw4pix/2915718535/in/set-72157606655477494/
A blow-up of the photo showing the crash site and trees.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jw4pix/2912652537/in/set-72157606655477494/
Here is an animated GIF of the SAR map, the Google image and the pilot's photo overlaid on one another. You'll probably have to download the image to get the animation to work. A later SAR map shows the actual crash site a couple of hundred yards upslope and upvalley from the one shown on this image. The updated location is shown in the prevous side-by-side photo and in the Flickr collection taken at the crash site.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jw4pix/2912365827/in/set-72157606655477494/
While the crash site marked on the aerial photo is close to the actual site, I'm not sure he's pointing to the burned trees.
Mike
I know that no one is probably surprised but it's now official:
"Bones confirm Steve Fossett death" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7707397.stm)