PROMOTIONS: What would you do?

[arajca]

I don't see any red flags, but a conversation with the member is in order, IMHO. Barring anything bad coming out of that, I'd click the button.

If they are active, they'll understand why you're having the conversation - chances are they've had it before.

[jimmydeanno]

My question wasn't necessarily hinged on the actual members qualifications.  I put the quals in there to show that on paper they were eligible for promotion.  In my example, I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that the person was transferring for reasons like their job, military requirements, etc.  Not some misfit that happened to do all the stuff and was just bouncing from unit to unit.

However, in some of my CAP experiences, I have seen commanders that have a member transfer to their unit with a short amount of time to their promotion eligibility date and despite a good track record previously, wouldn't promote them because they didn't have a track record yet in their unit.

One member in particular, I recall behind held up almost two years until his term of service as DCC was up and he was ready to transfer again (military member) - 1st Lt to Capt.

In reality, I thought that there would be a 100% consensus on the decision, to promote, based on previous track record.

The KB answer implies that the potential to handle increased responsibility could be used as a factor.  To me that says that there is no requirement for them to accept a job with that increase in order to be promoted. 

I am glad to see that many would contact the previous commander to find out the scoop.

Oh, and just an FYI, this hypothetical situation is based off real events, just not me.  So this isn't me asking a question about a unit I transferred to and the commander won't promote me...

[RiverAux]

One member in particular, I recall behind held up almost two years until his term of service as DCC was up and he was ready to transfer again (military member) - 1st Lt to Capt.

That is just outrageous in my opinion.  3 months as DCC is worth about 2 years of time in any other position in CAP (if you're doing it right).  Since the commander put this person in such a critical job to the unit, I would hope that he expected the person to be able to handle it, and if eligible for promotion, should have done it.  Maybe if the guy was in the squadron historian slot it would take a little longer to evaluate his performance, but DCC is one job where it shows up quick if you don't know what you're doing.

[lordmonar]

The KB answer is there to note that even if Member X has has met all the requirments....if you have doubts about their ability to take on more responsibilities.

There is no requirement to do so....just the ability.

Pilot X who has filled the staff requirements in the past but does not want/or cannot commit to takeing on a FUTURE staff job should NOT held back for promotion.  To do so is to add new requirments to the promotion system (we will only promote you if you take this staff job).

[SDF_Specialist]

There are a lot of great questions and answers to the original post on here. In my opinion, having been an Admin/Personnel guy, the member should be promoted. He's completed all of the PD requirements needed to advance and he's active. I can understand about having second guesses because he jumps units a lot, but that's no reason to deny him a promotion. He's clearing everything, he's performing, he deserves it.

[ZigZag911]

If I did not know the person in question well (from being in neighboring squadrons, for instance, or working missions together), I'd see what his former commander thought about the promotion...maybe check with someone higher up the food chain whose opinion I valued as well.

[Cecil DP]

Let your squadron's promotion board review the application for promotion and make their recommendation to the Squadron commander

[Climbnsink]

Just bleeping promote the poor bastard.  We are all adults does it really matter.  All this hand wringing about meaningless plastic shiny things just drives sensible people away.

[Michael M]

I don't want to sound pessimistic, but here goes.  Does it really matter in the CAP?  When we promote, there is no pay increase.  Our ranks are meaningless outside of CAP anyways.

Our wing has a Lt Col promoted up the ranks; all he has completed is LVL I, and he is a Squadron's Operations Officer.  His CAP flying resume is impeccable, but he hasn't held to the same PD standard as the nonflying senior members are required to go through for promotion.  He doesn't care about AE or ground ES.  If it isn't flying, he doesn't care.

I transferred from a unit because the unit was prejudicial and the wing I left didn't care.  Does that make me less promotable because I didn't want to deal with it?

[Eclipse]

^ Rather than sour grapes regarding someone else's promotions, decorations, or awards, it's better to concentrate on your own and move on.  There's plenty of people in the regular military wearing grade that others don't believe they deserve.

I find it amusing when people say they are "meaningless" , then have issues when they don't get theirs.
Promotion to Lt. Col. requires a Region CC's approval or higher.  Someone at that level felt he deserved it, and since, as you say, its "meaningless", why burn calories thinking about it?

At the end of the day, the grade means the most to the person wearing it - I earned my oaks, full weight, 10-year ride, with stops at all the levels.  They speak to my experience and abilities in CAP, as does my rack.  Anyone with a clue can spot the empty shirts in a room of CAP officers in about 1 minute, and wearing grade you don't deserve speaks volumes regarding your character.

I've submitted members for promotion to Major and higher with less experience and CAP knowledge than me, and who are less active.  Why?  Because the program says I'm supposed to - they had mission critical, professional-level skills that were sought after by CAP.  When I see them, I salute them. Period.

I have no interest or concern what they mean "outside CAP", and as an FYI, regular military grade doesn't mean anything outside the military either, looks good on a resume, but if you get hired based on your military experience, its generally because of what you commanded or what your MOS was, not the bling.

Active duty Colonels stand in the same checkout lines at Walmart as CAP Cols.

[Short Field]

But they don't park in the same reserve slots on base....   

[arajca]

But they don't park in the same reserve slots on base....   

But off-base, they drive in circles like everyone else trying to find the closest parking spot...

[Airrace]

First I would want to know why he has moved arround so much. If no red flags then promote if he meets the requirments.

[Lt Oliv]

Just to throw my personnel hat on for a moment...

Promotions boards are an awesome way of helping to make the decision of whether to promote a person. Being promotion eligible and actually being promoted are two very different things. Get together with your personnel officer and another person (PD Officer, Deputy Commander, whatever) and review the facts. Call around and ask about the person at their previous unit. Interview the individual. Review, consider and then decide.

And EMT, regarding your statement about promoting all eligible persons because we don't offer a paycheck.....

I'm not sure why you feel that volunteers are entitled to something other than the fuzzy warm feeling you get inside for donating your time. Quite frankly, that type of attitude is what gets many non-profits in trouble. "We HAVE to make Johnny a Major or else he'll quit! How ever will we show Johnny how good of a job he does?" We have awards that can be given for individual achievements. We have any number of occasions and methods to publicly recognize and individual. Neither awards, nor promotions are "in lieu of paychecks" because we knew we weren't getting paid when we signed on.

If you feel that CAP owes you, then maybe you need to re-evaluate why you VOLUNTEER. And if you lose a member because they didn't get a promotion they didn't deserve, maybe you are better off without that poor attitude, a terrible characteristic of a VOLUNTEER.

[Short Field]

If a person meets the requirements the organization set for promotion, then they should be promoted.  PERIOD!  The requirement for the CC to approve the promotion is to weed out the folks who met the letter of the requirements but failed to be a active and productive member.  Leaving it up to the whim of the CC to disapprove a promotion without good cause is simply unprofessional. 

[Eclipse]

If a person meets the requirements the organization set for promotion, then they should be promoted.  PERIOD!

Absolutely - and the last requirement is the satisfaction of the commander's in the chain.  For anything above 1st Lt., pushing an unqualified member for upstream approval calls into question the integrity of the commander doing the pushing.  I don't want my credibility or initiatives questioned just to make a non-performer happy (where's the value for any side in that?)

The requirement for the CC to approve the promotion is to weed out the folks who met the letter of the requirements but failed to be a active and productive member. 

Leaving it up to the whim of the CC to disapprove a promotion without good cause is simply unprofessional.

Unit CC's are essentially department managers, and that's what manager's DO.  (also, you kind of need to pick a side on this and go with it, since the above statements conflict with themselves.)
If a CC is disapproving promotions without cause, that's a different problem.

Example - a pilot in good standing with no staff or command ambition is performing at grade level as a captain.  Nothing wrong with that.  Pilots have been in and out of the service as captains for decades.
His reward for his productivity and PD are ribbons, attachments, and purposeful, inexpensive flying.
How does giving him more grade when he has no leadership ambitions change that for the better?

Not every A1C gets to be a Chief just for hanging around longer than everyone else, why should it be different for us?

[Short Field]

Not every A1C gets to be a Chief just for hanging around longer than everyone else, why should it be different for us?

Because we are the Civil Air Patrol - not the RM.  Pretending we are something other than what we are will not change a thing.     

Example - a pilot in good standing with no staff or command ambition is performing at grade level as a captain.  Nothing wrong with that.  Pilots have been in and out of the service as captains for decades.
His reward for his productivity and PD are ribbons, attachments, and purposeful, inexpensive flying.
How does giving him more grade when he has no leadership ambitions change that for the better?

For starters - CAPR 35-5, para 1-1:  General:  Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol.  CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.

Nowhere in 35-5 does it say a person receiving a duty performance promotion must have "leadership ambitions".

However, to receive a duty promotion to Major, a member has to be Level III.  According to CAPR 50-17, para  1-2c: "Level III, Management.  Senior members desiring to serve in CAP management positions train at this level."  That implies some leadership ambitions just by training for Level III.

To recap my position:  A member has to contribute more to the squadron than just showing up and participating on SARs, SAREXs, etc.  Just holding a duty assignment for three years without ever actually doing anything except the minimum tasks for the Speciality Track rating does not meet the requirements.  Commanders should (and too many don't) be trimming their staffs of the deadwood  to prevent this.   However, if a Commander has approved the appropriate PD level and the member is active in the unit, then they should be promoted.   Anything less smells like the "good old boy" system and special cliques.   

I would also add that, while not required by regulations for a non-recommendation, a good Commander would provide a signed memo to the member spelling out the reasons the member is not being promoted and providing specific actions the member needs to take to be recommended for promotion.

     

[lordmonar]

Not every A1C gets to be a Chief just for hanging around longer than everyone else, why should it be different for us?

Well if you do stick it out......the odds are in your favor that you will get promoted to CMSgt.  The difference being the USAF has a formal evaluation system that will put the "your done" stamp on anyone who should not be a CMSgt.   When CAP gets an OPR/EPR system then we can start comparing apples and oranges.

[EMT-83]

Ollie, you're reading a lot into my post that wasn't there. But since you brought it up...

If our hypothetical member does meet all of the prescribed requirements for promotion, and it is denied without a very good reason, there is a chance that the member will walk. People volunteer for many reasons, including the opportunity for personal advancement. Does this make them less valuable than someone motivated by something else? No, it makes them different. We have members who are second lieutenants for life – some will argue that they are less valuable members because they don't care about advancement. I don't think either is a "terrible characteristic" of a volunteer.

On a personal note, I never said CAP owes me anything. You don't know me, or have a clue about what motivates me as a volunteer, other than the warm fuzzies.

[flyerthom]

But they don't park in the same reserve slots on base....   

But off-base, they drive in circles like everyone else trying to find the closest parking spot...

Unless they're smart enough to avoid the maul ah mall in the first place!