PROMOTIONS: What would you do?

[jimmydeanno]

Let's say that you have a Senior Member, Captain, who moves around quite a bit, transferring from unit to unit.  They've been an active member since they joined, completed the PD levels, etc.  They've just transferred into your unit and in a month they are eligible for promotion to Major. 

You look through their record, see they have earned a MSM, 3 CCAs, served on staff at a few NCSAs, encampments, etc.  They've been a unit level command staff officer, etc.

When it comes time for their promotion, do you...

1) Tell them you're going to hold off promoting them until they "prove themselves" at your unit?

2) Promote them based off their performance prior to moving to your unit?

3) Other?

I've seen it both ways, so I'm just looking for some other opinions.

[lordmonar]

It comes down to the Unit/wing commander.

If the member has been more or less active during all his moves and in the short time that he has been at your unit has show he is ready for promotion....there is no reason to hold back his promotion.

The individual discribed seems like he should be promoted......

[Flying Pig]

CAP is CAP.  As a commander, I would say unless he is showing red flags, go ahead and promote him, especially if they have been contributing members.

I like the saying, "The Totality of the Circumstances."

[Al Sayre]

Based on his previous performance, he seems capable of performing at the level expected of a field grade officer.  I'd say promote him.

[LtCol057]

When I first read this, I had a couple of questions.  1. Is the member moving around because of their job, as in military, or does their moving around consist of local units?   

I'd probably contact the previous units and find out for myself what kind of job the member did.  Find out if they had problems with other members. How was the member's attendance and attitude? I know when I was working at my old job, I could get time off for CAP functions with very little problem, but at my current job, I can't even get off 15 minutes early for a CAP meeting.

I'd also ask the former commanders if the member was still in his/her unit, would they promote the member on time or hold promotion? 

If everything checked out, I'd probably go ahead and promote.

[Airrace]

When I first read this, I had a couple of questions.  1. Is the member moving around because of their job, as in military, or does their moving around consist of local units?   

I'd probably contact the previous units and find out for myself what kind of job the member did.  Find out if they had problems with other members. How was the member's attendance and attitude? I know when I was working at my old job, I could get time off for CAP functions with very little problem, but at my current job, I can't even get off 15 minutes early for a CAP meeting.

I'd also ask the former commanders if the member was still in his/her unit, would they promote the member on time or hold promotion? 

If everything checked out, I'd probably go ahead and promote.

I would agree with LtCol057.

[RiverAux]

I would probably promote based on past performance. 

[Eclipse]

I'm making the assumption that prior to accepting the transfer, you discussed with both him, and his prior commander why he wanted to transfer.

You accepted him, so you must be ok with that.   From there then I would discuss his prior performance with his past commander, add-in what little performance you have seen, and then consider his future plans for CAP.

I would probably promote based on past performance.

Promotions are not rewards for past performance, they are an acknowledgement of accepting increasing responsibility.

As an example, a fully-engaged pilot who is flying o-rides, acting as a mission pilot and generally performing well, but who has no interest in a staff or command slot, and who is already a Captain, is performing at grade level and should not expect a promotion.

[RiverAux]

Promotions are not rewards for past performance,

Actually that is the basis for all duty performance promotions.   Special appointments, mission-related skills promotions and professional promotions have somewhat higher standards (though rarely applied).

[Eclipse]

Promotions are not rewards for past performance,

Actually that is the basis for all duty performance promotions.   Special appointments, mission-related skills promotions and professional promotions have somewhat higher standards (though rarely applied).

Past performance only makes one eligible.

[EMT-83]

As an example, a fully-engaged pilot who is flying o-rides, acting as a mission pilot and generally performing well, but who has no interest in a staff or command slot, and who is already a Captain, is performing at grade level and should not expect a promotion.

You really wouldn't promote this guy? Assuming he meets all applicable requirements, why not?

Promotions and awards are all we can offer in the way of a paycheck. Unless there's some really compelling argument against it, we should promote those eligible.

[Eclipse]

As an example, a fully-engaged pilot who is flying o-rides, acting as a mission pilot and generally performing well, but who has no interest in a staff or command slot, and who is already a Captain, is performing at grade level and should not expect a promotion.

You really wouldn't promote this guy? Assuming he meets all applicable requirements, why not?

Promotions and awards are all we can offer in the way of a paycheck. Unless there's some really compelling argument against it, we should promote those eligible.

What's the point?  All he wants to do is fly and go home.  If he's a Captain he's got the grade he needs and deserves.  Besides, above Captain its not my call anyway and I've had plenty recently that were bounced because of this reason.

Either its members who don't want to do anything but "play", or the empty shirts that finished their PD years ago and just clock TIG, only to pop up when they are due.

This is part of raising the bar, and I agree with it.

[lordmonar]

No one has tasked you to raise the bar.

When your pilot quits because you don't promote him...what then?  Now you are out an O-ride pilot.

There is no requirment to accept higher responsibilty in order to get a promotion.  If there was then they would require staff duty at higher levels of responsibility to attain higer PD level and rank.

So you are add unwritten requirements to the promotion system....not good.

[Eclipse]

So you are add unwritten requirements to the promotion system....not good.

Nope - its clearly in the regs and certainly part of the subjective nature of command prerogative and authority.

This KB article sums it up very nicely. http://tinyurl.com/yzextyh

"The promotion regulation requires criteria for promotion of CAP senior members to be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. All CAP unit commanders are expected to use their judgment to determine if a member's performance merits promotion. A commander or promotion board is expected to use reasonable criteria such as involvement, participation, initiative, human relations, job performance and potential to handle increased responsibility as indicators that the individual is deserving of promotion. Good management practice would make sure members understand the criteria for promotion beforehand and counsel members who are denied a promotion on where they fall short so the member has the opportunity to make the changes necessary to be promoted. "

Part of this is the expectations walking in the door.  Either we walk the walk on this or we don't.
If we're just going to treat promotions as automatic based on past performance, we might as well just make them automatic in eServices and move on.

[arajca]

No one has tasked you to raise the bar.

When your pilot quits because you don't promote him...what then?  Now you are out an O-ride pilot.

There is no requirment to accept higher responsibilty in order to get a promotion.  If there was then they would require staff duty at higher levels of responsibility to attain higer PD level and rank.

So you are add unwritten requirements to the promotion system....not good.

To go above Capt via duty performance requires Level III. Level III requires command or staff service. MP is not a staff position. O-Flight pilot is not a staff position. THe Capt in the above hypothetical case cannot promoted to Maj because he has not met the requirements.

[Short Field]

THe Capt in the above hypothetical case cannot promoted to Maj because he has not met the requirements.

Then why was he even being considered.  If you are not eligible, you are shouldn't be promoted.  LordMonar is talking about someone who has met all the requirements - which includes staff work.

[Eclipse]

THe Capt in the above hypothetical case cannot promoted to Maj because he has not met the requirements.

Then why was he even being considered.  If you are not eligible, you are shouldn't be promoted.  LordMonar is talking about someone who has met all the requirements - which includes staff work.

That staff work might well have been years before.  Its not unusual for members to run in the door gangbusters, get a lot of PD done the first year due to good timing, and then disappear, only to pop up occasionally when their TIG is up.

[pixelwonk]

So when (and why) did we begin assuming the member in question is unwilling to be in command or on staff?  Because this is what I read:

They've been an active member since they joined, completed the PD levels, etc.  They've just transferred into your unit and in a month they are eligible for promotion to Major.
You look through their record, see they have earned a MSM, 3 CCAs, served on staff at a few NCSAs, encampments, etc.  They've been a unit level command staff officer, etc.

Oh that's right...  the thread has been hijacked to argue something pretend.
carry on then.

[Eclipse]

The actual question was whether to promote someone you don't really know based only on past performance.

[pixelwonk]

Let's revisit the actual question:

When it comes time for their promotion, do you...
1) Tell them you're going to hold off promoting them until they "prove themselves" at your unit?
2) Promote them based off their performance prior to moving to your unit?
3) Other?

I see a member who has:

• been active from the beginning (desired)
• completed the PD levels (required)
• served on staff not one (required), but multiple times and areas (desired)
• held command positions (desired)

Barring an undesirable answer (which we don't have, yet if any) as to why the member has squadron-hopped, a prediction of future potential is reflected in the member's past performance.  But don't take my word for it.  the "Establishing criteria for promotion in CAP" KB article you posted says just that:

A commander or promotion board is expected to use reasonable criteria such as involvement, participation, initiative, human relations, job performance and potential to handle increased responsibility as indicators that the individual is deserving of promotion.

emphasis mine

A conversation with the member (speaking actually, not hypothetically) and a call to the previous commander, if even necessary, can answer why they have transferred to other units in the past. Whether the member  did the aforementioned staff and command jobs at your unit or another, he still did them. So since the above criteria has already been demonstrated clearly, just what other things do you want them to accomplish, and why?

[arajca]

I don't see any red flags, but a conversation with the member is in order, IMHO. Barring anything bad coming out of that, I'd click the button.

If they are active, they'll understand why you're having the conversation - chances are they've had it before.

[jimmydeanno]

My question wasn't necessarily hinged on the actual members qualifications.  I put the quals in there to show that on paper they were eligible for promotion.  In my example, I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that the person was transferring for reasons like their job, military requirements, etc.  Not some misfit that happened to do all the stuff and was just bouncing from unit to unit.

However, in some of my CAP experiences, I have seen commanders that have a member transfer to their unit with a short amount of time to their promotion eligibility date and despite a good track record previously, wouldn't promote them because they didn't have a track record yet in their unit.

One member in particular, I recall behind held up almost two years until his term of service as DCC was up and he was ready to transfer again (military member) - 1st Lt to Capt.

In reality, I thought that there would be a 100% consensus on the decision, to promote, based on previous track record.

The KB answer implies that the potential to handle increased responsibility could be used as a factor.  To me that says that there is no requirement for them to accept a job with that increase in order to be promoted. 

I am glad to see that many would contact the previous commander to find out the scoop.

Oh, and just an FYI, this hypothetical situation is based off real events, just not me.  So this isn't me asking a question about a unit I transferred to and the commander won't promote me...

[RiverAux]

One member in particular, I recall behind held up almost two years until his term of service as DCC was up and he was ready to transfer again (military member) - 1st Lt to Capt.

That is just outrageous in my opinion.  3 months as DCC is worth about 2 years of time in any other position in CAP (if you're doing it right).  Since the commander put this person in such a critical job to the unit, I would hope that he expected the person to be able to handle it, and if eligible for promotion, should have done it.  Maybe if the guy was in the squadron historian slot it would take a little longer to evaluate his performance, but DCC is one job where it shows up quick if you don't know what you're doing.

[lordmonar]

The KB answer is there to note that even if Member X has has met all the requirments....if you have doubts about their ability to take on more responsibilities.

There is no requirement to do so....just the ability.

Pilot X who has filled the staff requirements in the past but does not want/or cannot commit to takeing on a FUTURE staff job should NOT held back for promotion.  To do so is to add new requirments to the promotion system (we will only promote you if you take this staff job).

[SDF_Specialist]

There are a lot of great questions and answers to the original post on here. In my opinion, having been an Admin/Personnel guy, the member should be promoted. He's completed all of the PD requirements needed to advance and he's active. I can understand about having second guesses because he jumps units a lot, but that's no reason to deny him a promotion. He's clearing everything, he's performing, he deserves it.

[ZigZag911]

If I did not know the person in question well (from being in neighboring squadrons, for instance, or working missions together), I'd see what his former commander thought about the promotion...maybe check with someone higher up the food chain whose opinion I valued as well.

[Cecil DP]

Let your squadron's promotion board review the application for promotion and make their recommendation to the Squadron commander

[Climbnsink]

Just bleeping promote the poor bastard.  We are all adults does it really matter.  All this hand wringing about meaningless plastic shiny things just drives sensible people away.

[Michael M]

I don't want to sound pessimistic, but here goes.  Does it really matter in the CAP?  When we promote, there is no pay increase.  Our ranks are meaningless outside of CAP anyways.

Our wing has a Lt Col promoted up the ranks; all he has completed is LVL I, and he is a Squadron's Operations Officer.  His CAP flying resume is impeccable, but he hasn't held to the same PD standard as the nonflying senior members are required to go through for promotion.  He doesn't care about AE or ground ES.  If it isn't flying, he doesn't care.

I transferred from a unit because the unit was prejudicial and the wing I left didn't care.  Does that make me less promotable because I didn't want to deal with it?

[Eclipse]

^ Rather than sour grapes regarding someone else's promotions, decorations, or awards, it's better to concentrate on your own and move on.  There's plenty of people in the regular military wearing grade that others don't believe they deserve.

I find it amusing when people say they are "meaningless" , then have issues when they don't get theirs.
Promotion to Lt. Col. requires a Region CC's approval or higher.  Someone at that level felt he deserved it, and since, as you say, its "meaningless", why burn calories thinking about it?

At the end of the day, the grade means the most to the person wearing it - I earned my oaks, full weight, 10-year ride, with stops at all the levels.  They speak to my experience and abilities in CAP, as does my rack.  Anyone with a clue can spot the empty shirts in a room of CAP officers in about 1 minute, and wearing grade you don't deserve speaks volumes regarding your character.

I've submitted members for promotion to Major and higher with less experience and CAP knowledge than me, and who are less active.  Why?  Because the program says I'm supposed to - they had mission critical, professional-level skills that were sought after by CAP.  When I see them, I salute them. Period.

I have no interest or concern what they mean "outside CAP", and as an FYI, regular military grade doesn't mean anything outside the military either, looks good on a resume, but if you get hired based on your military experience, its generally because of what you commanded or what your MOS was, not the bling.

Active duty Colonels stand in the same checkout lines at Walmart as CAP Cols.

[Short Field]

But they don't park in the same reserve slots on base....   

[arajca]

But they don't park in the same reserve slots on base....   

But off-base, they drive in circles like everyone else trying to find the closest parking spot...

[Airrace]

First I would want to know why he has moved arround so much. If no red flags then promote if he meets the requirments.

[Lt Oliv]

Just to throw my personnel hat on for a moment...

Promotions boards are an awesome way of helping to make the decision of whether to promote a person. Being promotion eligible and actually being promoted are two very different things. Get together with your personnel officer and another person (PD Officer, Deputy Commander, whatever) and review the facts. Call around and ask about the person at their previous unit. Interview the individual. Review, consider and then decide.

And EMT, regarding your statement about promoting all eligible persons because we don't offer a paycheck.....

I'm not sure why you feel that volunteers are entitled to something other than the fuzzy warm feeling you get inside for donating your time. Quite frankly, that type of attitude is what gets many non-profits in trouble. "We HAVE to make Johnny a Major or else he'll quit! How ever will we show Johnny how good of a job he does?" We have awards that can be given for individual achievements. We have any number of occasions and methods to publicly recognize and individual. Neither awards, nor promotions are "in lieu of paychecks" because we knew we weren't getting paid when we signed on.

If you feel that CAP owes you, then maybe you need to re-evaluate why you VOLUNTEER. And if you lose a member because they didn't get a promotion they didn't deserve, maybe you are better off without that poor attitude, a terrible characteristic of a VOLUNTEER.

[Short Field]

If a person meets the requirements the organization set for promotion, then they should be promoted.  PERIOD!  The requirement for the CC to approve the promotion is to weed out the folks who met the letter of the requirements but failed to be a active and productive member.  Leaving it up to the whim of the CC to disapprove a promotion without good cause is simply unprofessional. 

[Eclipse]

If a person meets the requirements the organization set for promotion, then they should be promoted.  PERIOD!

Absolutely - and the last requirement is the satisfaction of the commander's in the chain.  For anything above 1st Lt., pushing an unqualified member for upstream approval calls into question the integrity of the commander doing the pushing.  I don't want my credibility or initiatives questioned just to make a non-performer happy (where's the value for any side in that?)

The requirement for the CC to approve the promotion is to weed out the folks who met the letter of the requirements but failed to be a active and productive member. 

Leaving it up to the whim of the CC to disapprove a promotion without good cause is simply unprofessional.

Unit CC's are essentially department managers, and that's what manager's DO.  (also, you kind of need to pick a side on this and go with it, since the above statements conflict with themselves.)
If a CC is disapproving promotions without cause, that's a different problem.

Example - a pilot in good standing with no staff or command ambition is performing at grade level as a captain.  Nothing wrong with that.  Pilots have been in and out of the service as captains for decades.
His reward for his productivity and PD are ribbons, attachments, and purposeful, inexpensive flying.
How does giving him more grade when he has no leadership ambitions change that for the better?

Not every A1C gets to be a Chief just for hanging around longer than everyone else, why should it be different for us?

[Short Field]

Not every A1C gets to be a Chief just for hanging around longer than everyone else, why should it be different for us?

Because we are the Civil Air Patrol - not the RM.  Pretending we are something other than what we are will not change a thing.     

Example - a pilot in good standing with no staff or command ambition is performing at grade level as a captain.  Nothing wrong with that.  Pilots have been in and out of the service as captains for decades.
His reward for his productivity and PD are ribbons, attachments, and purposeful, inexpensive flying.
How does giving him more grade when he has no leadership ambitions change that for the better?

For starters - CAPR 35-5, para 1-1:  General:  Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol.  CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.

Nowhere in 35-5 does it say a person receiving a duty performance promotion must have "leadership ambitions".

However, to receive a duty promotion to Major, a member has to be Level III.  According to CAPR 50-17, para  1-2c: "Level III, Management.  Senior members desiring to serve in CAP management positions train at this level."  That implies some leadership ambitions just by training for Level III.

To recap my position:  A member has to contribute more to the squadron than just showing up and participating on SARs, SAREXs, etc.  Just holding a duty assignment for three years without ever actually doing anything except the minimum tasks for the Speciality Track rating does not meet the requirements.  Commanders should (and too many don't) be trimming their staffs of the deadwood  to prevent this.   However, if a Commander has approved the appropriate PD level and the member is active in the unit, then they should be promoted.   Anything less smells like the "good old boy" system and special cliques.   

I would also add that, while not required by regulations for a non-recommendation, a good Commander would provide a signed memo to the member spelling out the reasons the member is not being promoted and providing specific actions the member needs to take to be recommended for promotion.

     

[lordmonar]

Not every A1C gets to be a Chief just for hanging around longer than everyone else, why should it be different for us?

Well if you do stick it out......the odds are in your favor that you will get promoted to CMSgt.  The difference being the USAF has a formal evaluation system that will put the "your done" stamp on anyone who should not be a CMSgt.   When CAP gets an OPR/EPR system then we can start comparing apples and oranges.

[EMT-83]

Ollie, you're reading a lot into my post that wasn't there. But since you brought it up...

If our hypothetical member does meet all of the prescribed requirements for promotion, and it is denied without a very good reason, there is a chance that the member will walk. People volunteer for many reasons, including the opportunity for personal advancement. Does this make them less valuable than someone motivated by something else? No, it makes them different. We have members who are second lieutenants for life – some will argue that they are less valuable members because they don't care about advancement. I don't think either is a "terrible characteristic" of a volunteer.

On a personal note, I never said CAP owes me anything. You don't know me, or have a clue about what motivates me as a volunteer, other than the warm fuzzies.

[flyerthom]

But they don't park in the same reserve slots on base....   

But off-base, they drive in circles like everyone else trying to find the closest parking spot...

Unless they're smart enough to avoid the maul ah mall in the first place!