Qualifying Staff Position as a Cadet

[jimmydeanno]

Since that time it's been rewritten by National staff...

Who all just happen to be former Spaatz Cadets...

[Eclipse]

Ok... so if a squadron, composite or cadet, doesn't have an assigned Senior Member as the "ES" officer then the duties automatically fall to the CC, right?

If the CC then assigns a cadet as an "Assistant ES Officer", then doesn't the cadet in all actuality become the ES officer? Not for the purposes of a unit inspection, of course, but otherwise... the cadet performs all the duties and reports directly to the CC, right?

The above would not be the intended use of this ability.  The whole point of having cadets serve as assistants is that they "assist" and learn from a senior, not actually do the job because no one else will.

[lordmonar]

Dnall hit the nail on the head.....

Let's face it...if the cadet is so high speed that he no longer needs to work on the cadet program then he needs to transition over to the gray side.

Again...one of the reasons why I hate over 18 cadets....I'm sorry if this offends over 18 cadets...but a lot of this sort of debate would be corrected if we just made the Senior/Cadet cut off 18.

[Eclipse]

^So how would that work in practice?

I might suggest that any cadets over 18 who are mathematically eligible for Spaatz be allowed to continue as cadets, and any others be immediately transitioned.

As they get older, if they fail to progress, as soon as they are no longer in the "pennent race", they convert.
This would be a pretty straightforward calculation.

Another exception to consider might be >scheduled< NCSA's, IACE's, etc. during the calendar year if they are mathematically ineligible.

This way we age-out everyone in a year or two, but don't cut off cadets who are still invested in the program.

[DNall]

That line is in the reg to protect cadets from themselves & from leaders that lose sight of priorities.

So your saying that you know better for this cadet the she does?
since I don't agree with the reg, I've lost sight of priorities? 

Of course you know I don't mean it personally, but yes I'm being blunt to try & force you to see the other side - that being the intent of the line in the reg.

Younger folks are focused on their short term desires. If you come back on them later in life, will they regret trading in the chance at a Spaatz for being a Sq Asst PAO for a while? The reg is meant to prevent that mistake, but it still provides the latitude to let them contribute.

Have you lost sight of priorities or not? I really don't know. I think you have your head on straight, but I don't want you (or other leaders reading this for their situations) to make the same mistakes too many before have made.

You as Sq CC are tasked with operating this unit, accomplishing these 3+ missions, etc as best as can be done with limited resources. That's the job of all adult members of CAP. It's not the job of our cadets. They are here to develop through the cadet program, period.

Point of order: I personally think our current cadet program absolutely sucks. However, NHQ says it is what cadets are here to learn, not other things. This is commander's intent in regs we're talking about, not me inserting myself. /point of order

If you are doing what's best for the unit though, that may not be what's in the individual cadet's best interest. Your job is to recruit an adult for the slot. Even if the cadet requests it, giving into that is giving up on your responsibility.

CAN you put a cadet in a Sq asst position? Absolutely. I do understand there are very narrow situations with the right person/job/etc that it can be a good thing. The reg doesn't stop you from doing that. What it does is TRY to put a speed bump in front of you so you have to think it through & ensure they are not slighting their move through the cadet program in order to pick up some slack left by our adult side.

I'm not telling you not to put this cadet this spot. All I'm saying is give it some really hard thought first. If you believe - not just that it's convenient for you to believe, but you really KNOW - that the cadet can do both w/o slighting her primary responsibility to CP... Then, you counsel the cadet at length to ensure she understands her priorities & this job can go away real fast if she loses track... then okay (set goals, timelines). It's between you & your conscience just like every other command decision.


We used to (and sometimes still do) have units with a 14yo C/TSgt Sq Comm Officer (asst or otherwise) that hadn't cracked a ldrshp/AE book in months. When you have adult "leaders" willing to use a cadet and abuse their interest in a field, rather than that commander doing their job of finding a new adult to fill that slot, that's unacceptable.

Cadet officers are supposed to be rotated through cadet staff positions for exposure & growth. Not to fill a Sq need. That's why it's a C/staff slot instead of Sq staff. Crossing that line should be extremely rare & only for the right reasons in the right situation.

In your case, you're talking about an older C/LtCol on the verge of Spaatz. What's wrong w/ telling her to knock that out first; or, you can have the asst job & lots of space, but you have X months to promote or we're going to back up & make sure you do this first? She may not like that, but it's the right thing to do.

[Capt Rivera]

Points well made. I appreciate all the comments and debate.

[afgeo4]

Part of the cadet program is learning leadership, how to succeed and fail at a job and... ta da!  Learning staff positions. In fact, some staff positions are even achievements!

If a cadet has to pay 100% of his/her attention to the cadet program, then why should they be allowed to flight train? Why should they be allowed to do ES? Why should they be allowed to train for Disaster Relief? I don't think any of you will argue that all those activities should be banned for cadets too, will you?

High speed cadet officers use time management and leadership skills they've learned through the cadet program to make time for additional duties. Be it cadet staff, ES, DR or volunteering to lead AE classes at a nearby school. They also take additional time out of their days to learn how to fly. Why? Because that makes them better cadets, better leaders and better citizens. If a the cadet and his/her command staff all decide that taking on an extra responsibility is a positive move, then they should be allowed to do so. If the command believes that in the case of this particular cadet, the additional duties would interfere with the cadet's progress in the program, then obviously they should not. Isn't that how we approach our seniors anyway? At least isn't it the way we're supposed to?

[lordmonar]

No one said they can't do the work...but as an extra curricular activity.

In fact....if you are doing their cadet program right....every cadet over the rank of 2nd Lt should be spending six months or so acting as an assistant to different staff positions.

But....the point being two fold....

One....cadets should be focusing on the cadet program...not on running a staff position.

Two...putting cadets into staff positions breaks down the cadet/senior subordination model.

If hot shot cadet Joe Blow is the units ES officer......and he ORDERS the senior members to complete required training.....can I be 2b'ed for ignoring him?

If it were a Senior Member the answer would be yes almost 90% of the time...but a cadet...ordering a Senior Member....next thing you know we will be letting cadets making their own decisions about dating senior members.

This is a very important point....the fiction of the senior/cadet relation is exactly the same as the Officer/enlisted relationship we have on Active Duty.

Sure there are times when an NCO may be incharge...but we are talking about mature...experinced personnel who know where the lines are drawn and where the lanes of support are......are you going to try to tell me a 18-19-20 year old cadet can make these same distinctions?

[afgeo4]

No one said they can't do the work...but as an extra curricular activity.

In fact....if you are doing their cadet program right....every cadet over the rank of 2nd Lt should be spending six months or so acting as an assistant to different staff positions.

But....the point being two fold....

One....cadets should be focusing on the cadet program...not on running a staff position.

Two...putting cadets into staff positions breaks down the cadet/senior subordination model.

If hot shot cadet Joe Blow is the units ES officer......and he ORDERS the senior members to complete required training.....can I be 2b'ed for ignoring him?

If it were a Senior Member the answer would be yes almost 90% of the time...but a cadet...ordering a Senior Member....next thing you know we will be letting cadets making their own decisions about dating senior members.

This is a very important point....the fiction of the senior/cadet relation is exactly the same as the Officer/enlisted relationship we have on Active Duty.

Sure there are times when an NCO may be incharge...but we are talking about mature...experinced personnel who know where the lines are drawn and where the lanes of support are......are you going to try to tell me a 18-19-20 year old cadet can make these same distinctions?

An ES officer is a staff member and has no command authority of anyone except his assistants. Only a line officer may order a senior member or a cadet to do anything. That is, the DCS or CC may order the Senior Member to complete training (which would go against everything CAP stands for since training is voluntary). The ES officer's primary job is to train personnel. As such, there is no conflict.

Also, consider the fact that Cadets may lead a UDF team filled with Senior Members and those cadets may be in full command authority. Those situations occur and I have been in one. It worked out just fine because the cadet was the most experienced person for the job. Forget the military. CAP is NOT the military. However, even if it was the military, there are 18, 19 and 20 year olds who are placed in command of small tactical units, elements, fire teams, etc. every day and who make solid leadership decisions that save lives.

Giving a cadet a staff position should not deter the cadet from climbing up the cadet program any more than it deters senior members from climbing up theirs. Why are you making the assumption that a cadet officer is less capable of making sound decisions than a 40 year old senior member? The cadet officer has actually had leadership training. The senior member probably did not.